The April 2014 Gc Mention Of Christ's Birth Date

[theplains]

I had a question about something mentioned at the conference.  The link is 

"Bear Up Their Burdens with Ease" by Elder David A. Bednar, Of the Quorum 

of the Twelve Apostles

 

He said, "Today is April 6. We know by revelation that today is the actual and accurate 

date of the Savior’s birth. April 6 also is the day on which The Church of Jesus Christ of

Latter-day Saints was organized. (See D&C 20:1; Harold B. Lee, “Strengthen the Stakes

of Zion,” Ensign, July 1973, 2; Spencer W. Kimball, “Why Call Me Lord, Lord, and Do Not

the Things Which I Say?” Ensign, May 1975, 4; Spencer W. Kimball, “Remarks and 

Dedication of the Fayette, New York, Buildings,” Ensign, May 1980, 54; Discourses of 

President Gordon B. Hinckley, Volume 1: 1995–1999 [2005], 409.)".

 

If the date of the Savior’s birth is known by revelation, what does this say about past

LDS prophets and apostles who disagree with the April 6 date?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[ksfisher]

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63278-false-doctrine-at-conference/?hl=%2Bfalse+%2Bdoctrine

[Buckeye]

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63278-false-doctrine-at-conference/?hl=%2Bfalse+%2Bdoctrine

 

We need an emoticon for a horse that dies, gets resurrected, is killed again, and still keeps getting beaten. 

[JLHPROF]

 

If the date of the Savior’s birth is known by revelation, what does this say about past

LDS prophets and apostles who disagree with the April 6 date?

 

 

The topic as to whether this is true or false is SO beyond beaten to death.  But as for this question (which can be applied to many doctrines):

It says that past LDS prophets & apostles who disagree have their own opinions and perhaps require more clarity and proof in the revelation than say, Elder Bednar, Pres. Lee and Pres. Kimball do.  We are all entitled to our own level of revelatory evidence vs. faith.

[strappinglad]

So , if we take the first statement literally , Christ was born on April 6 , 2014. Hmm.

[Glenn101]

Last of all, the date of Christ's birth is not a "doctrine" per se. It is not even a policy and has no bearing on any actual LDS doctrine or policy that has anything to do with our salvation or exaltation. It is an interpretation of a revelation for which there has been no subsequent revelatory conformation or disavowal. We are either "making a mountain out of a molehill", making "much ado about nothing", and/or beating that dead horse mercilessly.

[CV75]

 Not sure how much of a horse is even left...

 

[cinepro]

Wait, which past Apostles and Prophets disagree with the April 6 date based on revelation?

 

And while we're on the subject, do you believe Noah's flood was global or local, were there pre-Adamites, and should Kate Kelly have been ex'd?

[Thinking]

Bednar is the one who resurrected the dead horse with his irrelevant declaration in GC.

[Guest]

I had a question about something mentioned at the conference.  The link is 

"Bear Up Their Burdens with Ease" by Elder David A. Bednar, Of the Quorum 

of the Twelve Apostles

 

He said, "Today is April 6. We know by revelation that today is the actual and accurate 

date of the Savior’s birth. April 6 also is the day on which The Church of Jesus Christ of

Latter-day Saints was organized. (See D&C 20:1; Harold B. Lee, “Strengthen the Stakes

of Zion,” Ensign, July 1973, 2; Spencer W. Kimball, “Why Call Me Lord, Lord, and Do Not

the Things Which I Say?” Ensign, May 1975, 4; Spencer W. Kimball, “Remarks and 

Dedication of the Fayette, New York, Buildings,” Ensign, May 1980, 54; Discourses of 

President Gordon B. Hinckley, Volume 1: 1995–1999 [2005], 409.)".

 

If the date of the Savior’s birth is known by revelation, what does this say about past

LDS prophets and apostles who disagree with the April 6 date?

 

Thanks,

Jim

It is not a stretch to say Christ was born during the Passover...would be like the Romans to impose a tax during a religious holiday. But assigning a day is odd, but Joseph was commanded to establish the Church on this day...either way, not exactly on the Julian Calendar back then.

[cinepro]

It is not a stretch to say Christ was born during the Passover...would be like the Romans to impose a tax during a religious holiday. But assigning a day is odd, but Joseph was commanded to establish the Church on this day...either way, not exactly on the Julian Calendar back then.

 

But Rome was a huge empire that encompassed much more than the Jews.  If they did in fact have a census like this, I doubt the religious holiday of a small territory in their empire had much to do with it.

 

And while we're on the subject, does anyone know what purpose it would serve to ask people to travel extensively for a census?  Why wouldn't you just count the people where they were (like we do now), and add an additional note for "family line" or "birthplace" if needed?  Do historians have any input on this?

[strappinglad]

And while we're on the subject, does anyone know what purpose it would serve to ask people to travel extensively for a census?  Why wouldn't you just count the people where they were (like we do now), and add an additional note for "family line" or "birthplace" if needed?  Do historians have any input on this?

Since when has government ever made it ' convenient " to deal with them ? Rome was an occupying power and as such, to show that power, they required folks to come to them no matter how difficult.

[Calm]

I think the idea is that the idea of having to travel was attached to the census in order to establish a connection between the house of David and Jesus.

Only Luke mentions it iirc.

Edited July 12, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Since when has government ever made it ' convenient " to deal with them ? Rome was an occupying power and as such, to show that power, they required folks to come to them no matter how difficult.

But there is no evidence they ever conducted a census in that way.

For one thing it would make collecting taxes that much harder since they would have to track back to what place they were then living in.

Edited July 12, 2014 by calmoriah

[Guest]

But Rome was a huge empire that encompassed much more than the Jews. If they did in fact have a census like this, I doubt the religious holiday of a small territory in their empire had much to do with it.

I don't know, anytime I seek to rejoice...I am taxed.

BTW, I was speaking of the Jewish Calendar, via Passover. Rome had no love for the Jews and certainly did not share their faith. So for Rome and that region, a good time for a census, when all are gathering home anyway.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Pa Pa

[Tiki]

Luke 1:26,27

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

He was born in the spring: http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm

Edited July 12, 2014 by Tiki

[cinepro]

But there is no evidence they ever conducted a census in that way.

For one thing it would make collecting taxes that much harder since they would have to track back to what place they were then living in.

 

In Matthew, Jesus is born in Bethlehem because that's where Mary and Joseph live.  They only move to Nazareth after going to Egypt and finding out they can't return home to Bethlehem.

 

 22 But when [Joseph] heard that Archelaus did reign in Judæa in the ^aroom of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a ^bdream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

 23 And he came and dwelt in a city called ^aNazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was ^bspoken by the prophets, He shall be called a ^cNazarene.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/2?lang=eng

 

[BCSpace]

I do not agree that D&C 20:1 shows that Jesus' DoB is April 6th.  I think the best you can say is that it was 1830 years before the organization of the Latter-day Church and I don't think one can necessarily say that.

 

However, because Bednar's talk is officially published, it IS the official doctrine of the Church (such may have already been published elsewhere by the Church).  Thus, here is a case where I disagree with the official doctrine of the Church. 

 

A similar case, which I also disagree with, is the use of D&C 107 and 116 (iirc) to show that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri.  It wouldn't matter to me if the Garden had been in Missouri, I just don't see the connection in the verses. I don't make the assumption that Adam stayed in the same locale for 900 years.

[thesometimesaint]

I do not agree that D&C 20:1 shows that Jesus' DoB is April 6th.  I think the best you can say is that it was 1830 years before the organization of the Latter-day Church and I don't think one can necessarily say that.

 

However, because Bednar's talk is officially published, it IS the official doctrine of the Church (such may have already been published elsewhere by the Church).  Thus, here is a case where I disagree with the official doctrine of the Church. 

 

A similar case, which I also disagree with, is the use of D&C 107 and 116 (iirc) to show that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri.  It wouldn't matter to me if the Garden had been in Missouri, I just don't see the connection in the verses. I don't make the assumption that Adam stayed in the same locale for 900 years.

 

Anyone who has been in Missouri in high summer or the depths of winter knows that Missouri is definitely NOT the location of the Garden of Eden.

[Bikeemikey]

But there is no evidence they ever conducted a census in that way.

For one thing it would make collecting taxes that much harder since they would have to track back to what place they were then living in.

 

Would the travel back and forward be tax deductible? That is the real question...

[Bikeemikey]

Anyone who has been in Missouri in high summer or the depths of winter knows that Missouri is definitely NOT the location of the Garden of Eden.

 

I think your safe to even drop the seasonal disclaimer... "Anyone who has been in Missouri ... knows that Missouri is definiately NOT the location of the Garden of Eden."

 

 

[thesometimesaint]

I've never lived in Missouri, but have been through it a few times. Spring and Fall are the best months to visit.

[David T]

Bednar is the one who resurrected the dead horse with his irrelevant declaration in GC.

 

Bednar was to April 6 what Nelson has been to anti-evolution/big bang declarations in GC.

[JLHPROF]

Bednar was to April 6 what Nelson has been to anti-evolution/big bang declarations in GC.

 

Or possibly, Bednar is 100% right with no evidence to back it up.  Like Joseph Smith was when he said he saw the father and the son.

[David T]

Or possibly, Bednar is 100% right with no evidence to back it up. Like Joseph Smith was when he said he saw the father and the son.

Then he should have said, "As an Apostle, I have learned this calendar date by new revelation...", rather than footnoting poor evidence.

Again, kind of sucky prospect if God is willing to answer calendrical trivia from an Apostle with new authoritative proclamations, but be silent to the world on gays and the future of female ordination.

" We" don't know it by revelation. We learned it from either bad arguments from misreading historical sources, or a pronouncement from someone who either did the same, or learned it in a secret manner he isn't willing to tell us about. All seem like sketchy options.

Edited July 17, 2014 by David T