Wine In The New Testament

[Bart Burk]

I frequently hear people say it is a slam dunk that Jesus used alcoholic wine in the New Testament.  The arguments are usually that wine could not be preserved as grape juice and thus during Passover they had to be using an alcoholic wine at the Last Supper and that Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding at Cana.  

 

Both of these things are in fact incorrect. The ancients did have a way of preserving grapes so they could have been squeezed as non-alcoholic grape juice at the Last Supper.  It is also possible that when the New Testament speaks of Jesus creating new wine for the wedding that it could have been non-alcoholic since the Greek word for wine could have been used for both.  The argument I have encountered against this is that the apostles were accused of being drunk with new wine at Pentecost so new wine had to be alcoholic.  I have read an article stating the word used in the Acts of the Apostles is a word generally used for grape juice.  The Apostles were being mocked sarcastically for being drunk on new wine just as if someone was saying in our modern terms they were drunk on soda.

 

I have been in arguments with some of my fellow Catholics who are defending the use of alcohol "in moderation".  The trouble with defending the use of alcohol in moderation is that it is too easy to go from moderation to alcoholism.  What some people see as moderate drinking is enough to cause real trouble with an automobile.  I have been increasingly disturbed by the use of alcohol I see among Catholics even to promoting church festivals by advertising that beer and wine would be available for purchase.

 

Anyway a couple of links from an interesting book by a Seventh Day Adventist writer:

 

On the preservation of grape juice in ancient times: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html

 

Wine in the apostolic church:  http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/5.html

Edited June 2, 2014 by Bart Burk

[teddyaware]

From time to time I have wondered how many potential LDS alcoholics avoided that debilitating fate simply because they never had that first drink. If it's true that some have a predisposition to become addicted to alcohol, and all that's needed to send someone so predisposed down that sorry path is the "buzz" from that first drink, then the strict prohibition on alcoholic beverages in the LDS church has very likely prevented very many broken hearts; and it's sobering to think of all the ruined lives, marriages and families that have likely been averted because of the counsel against alcohol usage found Word of Wisdom (D&C 89). 

[mnn727]

We LDS have covenanted not to use alcohol, that's the only excuse needed. I find arguing about N.T. meanings to be a waste of time because it just does not matter what Jesus drank, He has now asked that we refrain, so we do.

[Rivers]

The word of wisdom is a law for our time. Whatever Jesus was drinking is completely irrelevant.

[Storm Rider]

To me this topic is rather moot.  The OT and the Book of Mormon have examples where actual wine was consumed.  Regardless, and more importantly, the Word of Wisdom as it is recognized in the these latter days has nothing to do with any degree of inherently evil aspect of alcohol; it is strictly limited to what the current prophet has demanded of those who seek to attend the temple and is also associated with other forms of obedience for callings, etc.  

 

I find the arguments against Christ's miracle at the marriage of Cana to be somewhat irrelevant.  At the time there was no dietary restriction on wine in Judaism.  I see no reason for any person to be evaluated on their use of alcohol during that period.  

 

Our current WofW guidelines are rather recent and our strict compliance is not supported by the 89th Section.  It has everything to do the policy of our prophets from approximately 1920 forward until today. 

[sdc999]

Storm Rider,  you make a great point that no person should be evaluated on their use of alcohol.  It is a personal opinion, but, I think that should be the same today.  Because I think it's hypocritical that  a friend of mine, EQ president, is judged on his ability to refrain from alcohol but the fact that he is pushing 350+pound and gluttony is joked about and even encouraged in different settings is overlooked because he is alcohol righteous.  Oh, he is a diabetic too.  So much for the body being a temple but he does give me a hard time when I have a beer.  I am very healthy.

[Coreyb]

To me this topic is rather moot.  The OT and the Book of Mormon have examples where actual wine was consumed.  Regardless, and more importantly, the Word of Wisdom as it is recognized in the these latter days has nothing to do with any degree of inherently evil aspect of alcohol; it is strictly limited to what the current prophet has demanded of those who seek to attend the temple and is also associated with other forms of obedience for callings, etc.  

 

I find the arguments against Christ's miracle at the marriage of Cana to be somewhat irrelevant.  At the time there was no dietary restriction on wine in Judaism.  I see no reason for any person to be evaluated on their use of alcohol during that period.  

 

Our current WofW guidelines are rather recent and our strict compliance is not supported by the 89th Section.  It has everything to do the policy of our prophets from approximately 1920 forward until today.

True, and the revelation actually doesnt bar the use of wine if made yourself or mild drinks like beer, technically.

[Bart Burk]

So I am gathering that Mormons don't find a problem with Jesus making 100+ gallons of alcoholic wine for consumption which could easily lead people to drunkenness?  And nobody is interested in research which concludes the common idea that Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine is wrong?

[Guest]

I frequently hear people say it is a slam dunk that Jesus used alcoholic wine in the New Testament.  The arguments are usually that wine could not be preserved as grape juice and thus during Passover they had to be using an alcoholic wine at the Last Supper and that Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding at Cana.  

 

Both of these things are in fact incorrect. The ancients did have a way of preserving grapes so they could have been squeezed as non-alcoholic grape juice at the Last Supper.  It is also possible that when the New Testament speaks of Jesus creating new wine for the wedding that it could have been non-alcoholic since the Greek word for wine could have been used for both.  The argument I have encountered against this is that the apostles were accused of being drunk with new wine at Pentecost so new wine had to be alcoholic.  I have read an article stating the word used in the Acts of the Apostles is a word generally used for grape juice.  The Apostles were being mocked sarcastically for being drunk on new wine just as if someone was saying in our modern terms they were drunk on soda.

 

I have been in arguments with some of my fellow Catholics who are defending the use of alcohol "in moderation".  The trouble with defending the use of alcohol in moderation is that it is too easy to go from moderation to alcoholism.  What some people see as moderate drinking is enough to cause real trouble with an automobile.  I have been increasingly disturbed by the use of alcohol I see among Catholics even to promoting church festivals by advertising that beer and wine would be available for purchase.

 

Anyway a couple of links from an interesting book by a Seventh Day Adventist writer:

 

On the preservation of grape juice in ancient times: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html

 

Wine in the apostolic church:  http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/5.html

Wine in the NT was used and wine was a way to insure what was used was sterile. Having said that Latter-day Saints are allowed to have wine for the Sacrament, if it "wine of our own make". The reasons for this are also spelled out in the D&C...but as with most things it is the Spirit of the Law", that matters. Too often the "letter of the law" is followed without a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and nothing is accomplished.

[thesometimesaint]

So I am gathering that Mormons don't find a problem with Jesus making 100+ gallons of alcoholic wine for consumption which could easily lead people to drunkenness?  And nobody is interested in research which concludes the common idea that Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine is wrong?

 

What are you talking about ? The Bible forbids drunkenness not the drinking of alcohol per say. The patrons at that wedding found that wine to be the best. They knew good wine when they drank it. Mormons have made a covenant with God not to drink alcohol.

 

 BTW; Your link was just an Argument from Ignorance. There are only two things you can do to store unpasteurized grape juice. Store with air. It turns to vinegar or store it without air. It ferments producing alcohol.

Edited June 2, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[thesometimesaint]

Wine in the NT was used and wine was a way to insure what was used was sterile. Having said that Latter-day Saints are allowed to have wine for the Sacrament, if it "wine of our own make". The reasons for this are also spelled out in the D&C...but as with most things it is the Spirit of the Law", that matters. Too often the "letter of the law" is followed without a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and nothing is accomplished.

 

Not sterile, just safe to drink. Actually prophets after JS made the drinking of alcohol problematic for the Saints.

[Bart Burk]

What are you talking about ? The Bible forbids drunkenness not the drinking of alcohol per say. The patrons at that wedding found that wine to be the best. They knew good wine when they drank it. Mormons have made a covenant with God not to drink alcohol.

 

 BTW; Your link was just an Argument from Ignorance. There are only two things you can do to store unpasteurized grape juice. Store with air. It turns to vinegar or store it without air. It ferments producing alcohol.

Did you even read the research I presented?  There were ways of preserving grapes anciently that allowed them to be stored for up to a year without fermentation.  They also boiled the wine down to make a syrup which could be mixed with water and be non-alcoholic.  There are just as many verses in the Bible that say to avoid strong drink as there are verses that might be interpreted to use it.  I believe the assumption made is that alcohol was just fine in the ancient church, but what if that assumption is entirely wrong?  

[JLHPROF]

We LDS have covenanted not to use alcohol,

 

 

I must have missed making this specific covenant.  I did covenant to keep the commandments but the WoW is not actually a commandment.

 

And as for Christ drinking alcohol, the simple fact is that most of the prophets drank alcohol, both in earlier dispensations and in our own dispensation (up till around 1900).  Heck, Joseph Smith drank frequently, including in Carthage Jail the night before he died.

 

Link deleted.  Do not link to sites that contain temple content.

 

I am not advocating disobedience or in favor of alcohol, but the amount of holiness we put on not drinking is not in keeping with precedent.

[thesometimesaint]

Did you even read the research I presented?  There were ways of preserving grapes anciently that allowed them to be stored for up to a year without fermentation.  They also boiled the wine down to make a syrup which could be mixed with water and be non-alcoholic.  There are just as many verses in the Bible that say to avoid strong drink as there are verses that might be interpreted to use it.  I believe the assumption made is that alcohol was just fine in the ancient church, but what if that assumption is entirely wrong?  

 

Yes I did read them. From your link. "Unfortunately Jewish sources do not tell us what such technology was". Without a claimed technology that is a Argument from Ignorance. "I don't know what it so it must be "X"".

 

Making syrup doesn't stop fermentation.  It is storage under conditions not favorable to infection that do. Open up any bottle of syrup and watch what happens over the next week or so.

[JAHS]

I think whenever they talked about wine in the New Testament it is hard to tell if they are talking about the fermented alcohol containing drink or to just grape juice or somewhere in between.

It is well known that the words "the fruit of the vine" have been translated as "wine" even though it was only meant to represent unfermented juice. It is equally well known that in the Old Testament, three different words are translated "wine", two of which, used most commonly, refer clearly to unfermented grape juice. In the New Testament two Greek words, not necessarily representing fermented grape juice, are translated "wine". Intoxicating wine was not a common beverage among ancient Israel.

So depending on how things are translated it's hard to know which form of the drink is being spoken of.

 

Concerning the miracle Jesus performed at the wedding(John 2:1-10), the fact that the bridegroom was asked why he saved the "good" wine (John 2: 10) for the last is an indication that Jesus not only changed the water to grape juice, but that he also caused it to instantly turn to the fermented alcohol-containing beverage. It would still be a miracle to change water to grape juice; but it makes it even more so a miracle to change it to wine, which would normally require a lot of time for the fermentation process to produce the alcohol.

[thesometimesaint]

 

I think whenever they talked about wine in the New Testament it is hard to tell if they are talking about the fermented alcohol containing drink or to just grape juice or somewhere in between.

It is well known that the words "the fruit of the vine" have been translated as "wine" even though it was only meant to represent unfermented juice. It is equally well known that in the Old Testament, three different words are translated "wine", two of which, used most commonly, refer clearly to unfermented grape juice. In the New Testament two Greek words, not necessarily representing fermented grape juice, are translated "wine". Intoxicating wine was not a common beverage among ancient Israel.

So depending on how things are translated it's hard to know which form of the drink is being spoken of.

 

Concerning the miracle Jesus performed at the wedding(John 2:1-10), the fact that the bridegroom was asked why he saved the "good" wine (John 2: 10) for the last is an indication that Jesus not only changed the water to grape juice, but that he also caused it to instantly turn to the fermented alcohol-containing beverage. It would still be a miracle to change water to grape juice; but it makes it even more so a miracle to change it to wine, which would normally require a lot of time for the fermentation process to produce the alcohol.

 

 

Translating problems aside. Any juice starts to turn to vinegar and alcohol immediately upon crush. It is a game of time against the bacteria we want and the bacteria we don't want that makes the difference.

 

Miracles are miracles regardless of size.

[Walden]

We LDS have covenanted not to use alcohol, that's the only excuse needed. I find arguing about N.T. meanings to be a waste of time because it just does not matter what Jesus drank, He has now asked that we refrain, so we do.

 

Even though I am no longer a believer, I too found the argument regarding the use of wine in the bible to be a fools errand....there have been any number of things that are required of modern Latter-Day Saints that either do not have biblical precedence or potentially conflict with biblical precedence (such as this wine debate), but have never the less been deemed by LDS prophets to be God's desire for his people in these latter days.

 

If everything were to precisely follow biblical precedent, I wouldn't see much need for a modern-day prophet.

 

Whether it be the consumption of alcohol, the wearing of garments, etc., all that should matter to faithful LDS is the message of the current prophet(s), and the current quorum continues to hold the line on the Word of Wisdom.

[halconero]

So I am gathering that Mormons don't find a problem with Jesus making 100+ gallons of alcoholic wine for consumption which could easily lead people to drunkenness? And nobody is interested in research which concludes the common idea that Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine is wrong?

Coming from someone who is at least somewhat literate in Koine Greek whose degree includes Early Christian writings...it was wine. The Greek word "oinos" is used in other places, such as Paul's epistles, to refer to alcohol.

Edited June 2, 2014 by halconero

[cinepro]

Whether it was "grape juice" or "wine", I have to admit that using priesthood power to change water into it strikes me as a, shall we say, "highly unusual" use of God's power. 

 

Can you imagine if you heard a story about a modern Church leader being at a wedding reception, and solving a drink shortage by using his priesthood to turn water into juice?

[bluebell]

Whether it was grape juice or wine (I'm in the 'it was wine' group), I honestly don't see why it matters.

 

Jesus lived under completely different health restrictions than we do as Latter-day Saints.  We don't use Him not eating ham as evidence that we shouldn't either, so i'm not sure why Him drinking wine would be evidence that we should.

 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The word of wisdom is a law for our time. Whatever Jesus was drinking is completely irrelevant.

You are correct. I wished I had figured this out when I was on my mission. All of the reasons we gave. Ugh!! So bad.

[JLHPROF]

.

 

Link deleted.  Do not link to sites that contain temple content.

 

 

My apologies.  I didn't realise there was temple content on the site.

[mormonnewb]

So I am gathering that Mormons don't find a problem with Jesus making 100+ gallons of alcoholic wine for consumption which could easily lead people to drunkenness?  And nobody is interested in research which concludes the common idea that Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine is wrong?

The greatest argument against teetotler Christ is that His critics accused Him of being a drunkard (Matthew 11:19).

This is not a charge that someone would level against a teetotler. For example, in the last election, there were many unfair attacks against Gov. Romney, but NO ONE accused him of being a drunkard. It would be a laughable accusation to make against someone who does not drink AT ALL.

If Jesus never drank wine, he would have been VERY unique in the community. Charging him with OVERINDULGING in a substance that he even refused to drink AT ALL would be very strange.

[3DOP]

Bart Burk

I have been in arguments with some of my fellow Catholics who are defending the use of alcohol "in moderation".  The trouble with defending the use of alcohol in moderation is that it is too easy to go from moderation to alcoholism.  

 

3DOP

You have heard the expression, moderation in everything. The key to all the moral virtues involves moderation. The Church already teaches that any natural good can be abused to excess. Your argument seems to be that alcohol is a good that can be abused, therefore it should be prohibited. Such an argument will never fly with Catholics who teach that we even need to practise one of the greatest goods, religion, in moderation. We can sin by praying too much too. If on the other hand, you are trying to establish that alcohol consumption is always bad, as a Catholic, I wouldn't know how to arrive at such a conclusion.

 

Bart Burk

What some people see as moderate drinking is enough to cause real trouble with an automobile.

 

3DOP

Without condemning the teaching of the Catholic Church, on the goodness of alcohol, most advanced societies have enacted laws against drunken driving that seem to reflect the dangers involved with operating mechanized equipment while intoxicated. I would agree that the Catholic who would drive while impaired is certainly at serious fault and should observe the reasonable laws against such an activity. There is a different standard for what is "moderate" when operating a motor vehicle, or writing your Master's Thesis, and what is moderate when one isn't. There is no question that the effects of alcoholic consumption need to be limited to appropriate times and places. Church law prohibits alcoholic consumption before Holy Mass and it follows that we are to be completely sober for such an august occasion. I agree that there are important times when we must not feel any of the effects of alcohol, when even "moderate" consumption is inappropriate or forbidden. If Catholics are arguing from St. Thomas Aquinas' teaching on the subject, which is to be understood as applicable to social gatherings, as though it were a universal law to be applied while driving cars in 2014, I agree they are terribly mistaken. That is not a valid application of St. Thomas' teaching. 

 

Bart Burk

I have been increasingly disturbed by the use of alcohol I see among Catholics even to promoting church festivals by advertising that beer and wine would be available for purchase.

 

3DOP

Bring your concerns to proper authority. Ultimately, these events can promote drunkenness and even consumption by minors. Go to the priest and then the bishop if need be. You'll need to show that these events are promoted in such a way as to encourage abuse instead of moderation.  

 

We have often had beer and pizza at out Holy Name Society meetings. There was one member with whom I had this same argument. Not surprisingly, this good fellow was a self-professed alcoholic who seemed to be unable to aappreciate that we could enjoy ourselves together without guzzling a shortcase of beer like he says he would if he took one drink. This guy lost his family through drinking to excess. He has no memories of ever having merely enjoyed a drink or two. I don't doubt his claim that he could never have just one or two drinks, but he shouldn't doubt the majority of the rest of us either. The cure of the alcoholic, total abstinence forever, sometimes leaves the alcoholic with false impressions about the proper use of alcohol and an inability to realize the social value to be gained by moderate usage, such as that at the Marriage Feast of Cana. 

 

Two thousand years of saints hasn't produced a single one that I know who condemned moderate consumption of alcohol. Many of them used it, some praised it, and others, taking their cues from Apostolic revelation, counselled moderate usage while condemning abuse. Several monastic orders make wines, ales, and distilled liquors. Besides good New Testament evidence favoring moderate consumption, no Catholic is going to reject the Psalmist, the wise man of the Proverbs, or Sirach of Ecclesiasticus when they praise the moderate use of alcohol while condemning the abuse of it.

 

As you can see, even the LDS, who currently have prohibitions against alcohol consumption because of Latter-day revelation, can't find any support that would be authoritative to a Catholic. My spiritual formation originally took place in an environment which prohibited any use of alcoholic beverages. I became a minister for folks who held this view, which in time, I found to be biblically unsupportable. There were a lot of other more important reasons for eventually re-evaluating my ministry, but one of the clearest was that with just the Old and New Testaments, I couldn't preach that moderate consumption of alcohol was bad anymore. I didn't want to call evil what God calls good.

 

One may certainly be a good Catholic and abstain from all drink, but you can't be a good Catholic and condemn all who take a drink. I hope this wouldn't cause you to question your Catholic faith, but you already have in a sense, if you are reaching out to LDS to try to find arguments against Catholic Tradition. Unless I have misunderstood you, there is no way that I reconcile your position with 2,000 years of Catholic teaching and practise. Perhaps you are re-evaluating your formation? I encourage you to think this through very thoroughly and you will see the wisdom of the stance the Church has taken according to the lights we have received. I think the noted Catholic author G.K. Chesterton summed it up for Catholics pretty well: "We should thank God for beer and burgundy by not drinking too much of them." I wish you well on your faith journey.

 

3DOP

Edited June 3, 2014 by 3DOP

[Alan]

The word of wisdom is a law for our time. Whatever Jesus was drinking is completely irrelevant.

 

Nowhere does the revelation in D&C 89 describe itself as a "law".

The WoW is exactly what it says it is and nothing more.