Wine In The New Testament

[Bart Burk]

Catholics do love their beer and wine almost more than life itself!  They can't seem to enjoy a social function without it.  I'm glad I can go to an LDS social function with my family and not have to put up with it.  There is a reason I enjoy being with LDS more than Catholics and this may be the main reason.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Bart Burk

[Bikeemikey]

Catholics do love their beer and wine almost more than life itself! They can't seem to enjoy a social function without it. I'm glad I can go to an LDS social function with my family and not have to put up with it. There is a reason I enjoy being with LDS more than Catholics and this may be the main reason.

That sounds a little strange.

[Bart Burk]

That sounds a little strange.

It seems to me that a lot of young people think alcohol is almost a rite of passage.  One of the things I like about the LDS Church is that it is a little strange to non-members.

[Bart Burk]

Bart Burk

I have been in arguments with some of my fellow Catholics who are defending the use of alcohol "in moderation".  The trouble with defending the use of alcohol in moderation is that it is too easy to go from moderation to alcoholism.  

 

3DOP

You have heard the expression, moderation in everything. The key to all the moral virtues involves moderation. The Church already teaches that any natural good can be abused to excess. Your argument seems to be that alcohol is a good that can be abused, therefore it should be prohibited. Such an argument will never fly with Catholics who teach that we even need to practise one of the greatest goods, religion, in moderation. We can sin by praying too much too. If on the other hand, you are trying to establish that alcohol consumption is always bad, as a Catholic, I wouldn't know how to arrive at such a conclusion.

 

Bart Burk

What some people see as moderate drinking is enough to cause real trouble with an automobile.

 

3DOP

Without condemning the teaching of the Catholic Church, on the goodness of alcohol, most advanced societies have enacted laws against drunken driving that seem to reflect the dangers involved with operating mechanized equipment while intoxicated. I would agree that the Catholic who would drive while impaired is certainly at serious fault and should observe the reasonable laws against such an activity. There is a different standard for what is "moderate" when operating a motor vehicle, or writing your Master's Thesis, and what is moderate when one isn't. There is no question that the effects of alcoholic consumption need to be limited to appropriate times and places. Church law prohibits alcoholic consumption before Holy Mass and it follows that we are to be completely sober for such an august occasion. I agree that there are important times when we must not feel any of the effects of alcohol, when even "moderate" consumption is inappropriate or forbidden. If Catholics are arguing from St. Thomas Aquinas' teaching on the subject, which is to be understood as applicable to social gatherings, as though it were a universal law to be applied while driving cars in 2014, I agree they are terribly mistaken. That is not a valid application of St. Thomas' teaching. 

 

Bart Burk

I have been increasingly disturbed by the use of alcohol I see among Catholics even to promoting church festivals by advertising that beer and wine would be available for purchase.

 

3DOP

Bring your concerns to proper authority. Ultimately, these events can promote drunkenness and even consumption by minors. Go to the priest and then the bishop if need be. You'll need to show that these events are promoted in such a way as to encourage abuse instead of moderation.  

 

We have often had beer and pizza at out Holy Name Society meetings. There was one member with whom I had this same argument. Not surprisingly, this good fellow was a self-professed alcoholic who seemed to be unable to aappreciate that we could enjoy ourselves together without guzzling a shortcase of beer like he says he would if he took one drink. This guy lost his family through drinking to excess. He has no memories of ever having merely enjoyed a drink or two. I don't doubt his claim that he could never have just one or two drinks, but he shouldn't doubt the majority of the rest of us either. The cure of the alcoholic, total abstinence forever, sometimes leaves the alcoholic with false impressions about the proper use of alcohol and an inability to realize the social value to be gained by moderate usage, such as that at the Marriage Feast of Cana. 

 

Two thousand years of saints hasn't produced a single one that I know who condemned moderate consumption of alcohol. Many of them used it, some praised it, and others, taking their cues from Apostolic revelation, counselled moderate usage while condemning abuse. Several monastic orders make wines, ales, and distilled liquors. Besides good New Testament evidence favoring moderate consumption, no Catholic is going to reject the Psalmist, the wise man of the Proverbs, or Sirach of Ecclesiasticus when they praise the moderate use of alcohol while condemning the abuse of it.

 

As you can see, even the LDS, who currently have prohibitions against alcohol consumption because of Latter-day revelation, can't find any support that would be authoritative to a Catholic. My spiritual formation originally took place in an environment which prohibited any use of alcoholic beverages. I became a minister for folks who held this view, which in time, I found to be biblically unsupportable. There were a lot of other more important reasons for eventually re-evaluating my ministry, but one of the clearest was that with just the Old and New Testaments, I couldn't preach that moderate consumption of alcohol was bad anymore. I didn't want to call evil what God calls good.

 

One may certainly be a good Catholic and abstain from all drink, but you can't be a good Catholic and condemn all who take a drink. I hope this wouldn't cause you to question your Catholic faith, but you already have in a sense, if you are reaching out to LDS to try to find arguments against Catholic Tradition. Unless I have misunderstood you, there is no way that I reconcile your position with 2,000 years of Catholic teaching and practise. Perhaps you are re-evaluating your formation? I encourage you to think this through very thoroughly and you will see the wisdom of the stance the Church has taken according to the lights we have received. I think the noted Catholic author G.K. Chesterton summed it up for Catholics pretty well: "We should thank God for beer and burgundy by not drinking too much of them." I wish you well on your faith journey.

 

3DOP

I don't condemn all who drink.  I just think it is ridiculous for a church to encourage alcohol consumption and make profit off of it at a parish event.  It tends to turn some people away from Catholicism when they come to a parish event where people are freely drinking.  If people want to drink in non-church settings that is their business.  It just seems to me to be off putting for Catholic parishes to promote drunkenness even if unintended by providing it at a church sponsored event.  I expect the rest of society will be promoting drinking, but I don't know why a Catholic parish would want to do so.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Bart Burk

[thesometimesaint]

Nowhere does the revelation in D&C 89 describe itself as a "law".

The WoW is exactly what it says it is and nothing more.

 

True but irrelevant. BY made it a commandment.

[mnn727]

I must have missed making this specific covenant.  I did covenant to keep the commandments but the WoW is not actually a commandment.

 

Perhaps you need to review your Covenants, in particular the baptismal covenant. The WoW became a commandment a couple decades after written, presented by B.Y.and approved by the Church.

[Storm Rider]

I don't condemn all who drink.  I just think it is ridiculous for a church to encourage alcohol consumption and make profit off of it at a parish event.  It tends to turn some people away from Catholicism when they come to a parish event where people are freely drinking.  If people want to drink in non-church settings that is their business.  It just seems to me to be off putting for Catholic parishes to promote drunkenness even if unintended by providing it at a church sponsored event.  I expect the rest of society will be promoting drinking, but I don't know why a Catholic parish would want to do so.

 

Many, many years ago I met a good priest that did enjoy a glass or two of whiskey in the evening. As a LDS it struck me as odd due to my lack of experience to that culture.  Nowadays I have a very good friend that is a Knight of Malta and a devoted Catholic; the quintessential Irishman.  My goodness does he like a glass of Jameson Irish Whiskey.  It is just something he enjoys several times a week.  I have become more accustomed to this type of culture.

 

Bart, I think I understand your position, but many Catholics, not all, just have a different culture than we do.  They enjoy drinks in moderation for the most part and it does not seem to conflict with their faith and service to others.  

 

For me, I have concluded that whether someone drinks or does not has nothing to do with holiness or righteousness.  Holiness and righteousness are strictly dependent upon our relationship with the Lord and are willingness to follow him. How someone eats a meal - what goes in the mouth - is not nearly as important as what comes out of it. 

[mfbukowski]

So I am gathering that Mormons don't find a problem with Jesus making 100+ gallons of alcoholic wine for consumption which could easily lead people to drunkenness?  And nobody is interested in research which concludes the common idea that Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine is wrong?

This has probably been answered by now, but indeed I find that fascinating, and it seems to bolster the LDS view.

 

The reason we are not as impressed as we might be is that we have, forever, encountered the argument that Jesus drank alcohol and therefore we were silly to obey the Word of Wisdom.

 

It really doesn't much matter to us any more if Jesus drank alcoholic wine or not.   So yes, it is a fascinating finding, and bolsters our position.  But our position is not based on what Jesus did or did not do about wine anyway.

 

Our position is based on personal testimony of the WOW, nothing more, nothing less.

[mfbukowski]

Catholics do love their beer and wine almost more than life itself!  They can't seem to enjoy a social function without it.  I'm glad I can go to an LDS social function with my family and not have to put up with it.  There is a reason I enjoy being with LDS more than Catholics and this may be the main reason.

But perhaps you should clarify- as I recall you ARE Catholic, right?  Former LDS, now Catholic as I recall....?

 

If that is right, I think that is the reason for the confusion.  People are reading this assuming you are LDS, but your point is that even though you are Catholic, you enjoy social occasions better without drinking.

 

As a former Catholic, I know exactly what you mean.  I don't think I own a photo of my Catholic relatives without a glass in their hands.  I don't find that offensive because I was not raised LDS, but to one who would find it offensive, I can understand it could be disturbing.  My wife and kids even hate the smell of alcohol, and think that beer smells like......  a not good smell.

Edited June 3, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Perhaps you need to review your Covenants, in particular the baptismal covenant. The WoW became a commandment a couple decades after written, presented by B.Y.and approved by the Church.

And try to get a temple recommend while truthfully saying you drink.  Not gonna happen.

[Yirgacheffe]

"Smells like..... not a good smell"

 

That last bit made me laugh I'll probably be using it now when I encounter not good smells.

 

 

 

[Bart Burk]

But perhaps you should clarify- as I recall you ARE Catholic, right?  Former LDS, now Catholic as I recall....?

 

If that is right, I think that is the reason for the confusion.  People are reading this assuming you are LDS, but your point is that even though you are Catholic, you enjoy social occasions better without drinking.

 

As a former Catholic, I know exactly what you mean.  I don't think I own a photo of my Catholic relatives without a glass in their hands.  I don't find that offensive because I was not raised LDS, but to one who would find it offensive, I can understand it could be disturbing.  My wife and kids even hate the smell of alcohol, and think that beer smells like......  a not good smell.

Yes I'm Catholic now.  I saw this information over at the forum on catholic.com and thought it was interesting so I thought I would share it over here.  I feel more and more like I'm a social Mormon even though I commune at the Catholic Church.  There are days when I am tempted to just go back to Mormonism.  I just don't find I fit very well in the Catholic Church.  I'm even beginning to question the whole Nicea thing.  Do I really believe that belief in the Trinitarian doctrine taught at Nicea is absolutely necessary for salvation?  But that is a whole 'nother topic which I have broached over at the Trinity thread.  

Edited June 3, 2014 by Bart Burk

[Bikeemikey]

Perhaps you need to review your Covenants, in particular the baptismal covenant. The WoW became a commandment a couple decades after written, presented by B.Y.and approved by the Church.

Which he then continued to violate for years afterwards.

[Bart Burk]

Which he then continued to violate for years afterwards.

My understanding was that it took the Saints awhile to get used to this commandment because of ingrained habits.  I understand it wasn't required for a temple recommend until 1918.  The Word of Wisdom is fairly easy to live if you've grown up with it.   I'd say you should cut Brigham some slack.  Time has proven that obeying the Word of Wisdom is a smart policy. 

[mfbukowski]

Yes I'm Catholic now.  I saw this information over at the forum on catholic.com and thought it was interesting so I thought I would share it over here.  I feel more and more like I'm a social Mormon even though I commune at the Catholic Church.  There are days when I am tempted to just go back to Mormonism.  I just don't find I fit very well in the Catholic Church.  I'm even beginning to question the whole Nicea thing.  Do I really believe that belief in the Trinitarian doctrine taught at Nicea is absolutely necessary for salvation?  But that is a whole 'nother topic which I have broached over at the Trinity thread.  

Thanks for the clarification-

 

And yes of course I find that doctrine highly problematic myself and is one of the major reasons I could never go back, even if I had some inclination to do so- which I do not.

 

If I were forced to leave the LDS church for some unfathomable reason, I would probably just keep believing what I believe theologically and go "churchless", but I find the Nicene Creed highly problematic.

[mfbukowski]

My understanding was that it took the Saints awhile to get used to this commandment because of ingrained habits.  I understand it wasn't required for a temple recommend until 1918.  The Word of Wisdom is fairly easy to live if you've grown up with it.   I'd say you should cut Brigham some slack.  Time has proven that obeying the Word of Wisdom is a smart policy. 

If you have not grown up with it, it can be tremendously difficult, especially for adult converts who are used to smoking, drinking, and a shot of espresso to start off the morning.

 

It's almost like kicking 3 heroin habits at once. 

[mormonnewb]

And try to get a temple recommend while truthfully saying you drink. Not gonna happen.

Point of clarification: Let's say you were out with friends and one thing led to another and before you knew it, you were slamming down iced teas like a mad man. Do you just drive to the bishop's house and leave your TR in his mailbox? Or does not count if you're more than 200 miles from his house?

Seriously, I'm assuming that even one drink is enough to constitute breaking of the covenant, but then what? Is it an automatic TR revocation? Does it go to a court of love?

And what is the repentance process like? Do you have to wear a scarlet T or change your route to work to avoid passing Starbucks?

And how long is the process? In other words, how long before your child's wedding do you have to be clean to be able to attend?

In all seriousness, how does the bishop handle WoW issues?

Edited June 3, 2014 by mormonnewb

[JLHPROF]

Perhaps you need to review your Covenants, in particular the baptismal covenant. The WoW became a commandment a couple decades after written, presented by B.Y.and approved by the Church.

 

Funny.  I thought only God could set a "commandment".  After all, he is the one doing the commanding.

And when he gave the WoW he specifically said "not by way of commandment".

 

The Church can set regulations, but not commandments.  And I only covenanted to obey the commandments, not the regulations of the Church.

[Bart Burk]

Funny.  I thought only God could set a "commandment".  After all, he is the one doing the commanding.

And when he gave the WoW he specifically said "not by way of commandment".

 

The Church can set regulations, but not commandments.  And I only covenanted to obey the commandments, not the regulations of the Church.

 

And you don't think the LDS Church can receive further revelation which after a time makes the Word of Wisdom a commandment?  God would have known the Saints weren't ready for it to be a commandment when it was first given.  Who is to say he couldn't have decided at some point to inspire the leaders of the church to make it a commandment?  

[Bart Burk]

Thanks for the clarification-

 

And yes of course I find that doctrine highly problematic myself and is one of the major reasons I could never go back, even if I had some inclination to do so- which I do not.

 

If I were forced to leave the LDS church for some unfathomable reason, I would probably just keep believing what I believe theologically and go "churchless", but I find the Nicene Creed highly problematic.

I wouldn't go churchless.  I attend both the Catholic Church and the LDS Church now.  The LDS Church never forces you to leave attending the church.  I know.  They basically forced me to resign from the LDS Church, but they let me keep attending with my family.  And I still am able to enjoy the fellowship with the Saints even in my situation.  

[bluebell]

Funny.  I thought only God could set a "commandment".  After all, he is the one doing the commanding.

And when he gave the WoW he specifically said "not by way of commandment".

 

The Church can set regulations, but not commandments.  And I only covenanted to obey the commandments, not the regulations of the Church.

 

The prophet relays commandments to us from the Lord.

 

That is why the Lord teaches that whether it is from Him, or His prophet, it is the same.

 

Not wanting to obey the WoW because it was taught to be a commandment by BY is like not wanting to honor your parents because it was taught as a commandment by Moses.  It makes no sense.

[JLHPROF]

The prophet relays commandments to us from the Lord.

 

That is why the Lord teaches that whether it is from Him, or His prophet, it is the same.

 

Not wanting to obey the WoW because it was taught to be a commandment by BY is like not wanting to honor your parents because it was taught as a commandment by Moses.  It makes no sense.

 

Nonsense.  Moses didn't teach honoring our parents, God specifically said it and Moses just wrote it down.  Joseph didn't teach the Word of Wisdom (not by way of commandment).  God specifically said it and Joseph wrote it down.

 

Brigham also taught that if we catch our spouse in adultery we should run a pike through them.  But that wasn't a commandment either.

 

I say again, commandments are things God tells us we have to do.  If the prophets reveal more of God's word on a matter then fine, that would be a commandment.  But establishing a church regulation or a personal opinion is not the same thing, especially when God's only word on the matter has included "not by way of commandment".

[Bikeemikey]

My understanding was that it took the Saints awhile to get used to this commandment because of ingrained habits. I understand it wasn't required for a temple recommend until 1918. The Word of Wisdom is fairly easy to live if you've grown up with it. I'd say you should cut Brigham some slack. Time has proven that obeying the Word of Wisdom is a smart policy.

I'm fine cutting him some slack... In fact I don't think that his failure to comply with his own commandment is even a big deal.

[thesometimesaint]

Point of clarification: Let's say you were out with friends and one thing led to another and before you knew it, you were slamming down iced teas like a mad man. Do you just drive to the bishop's house and leave your TR in his mailbox? Or does not count if you're more than 200 miles from his house?

Seriously, I'm assuming that even one drink is enough to constitute breaking of the covenant, but then what? Is it an automatic TR revocation? Does it go to a court of love?

And what is the repentance process like? Do you have to wear a scarlet T or change your route to work to avoid passing Starbucks?

And how long is the process? In other words, how long before your child's wedding do you have to be clean to be able to attend?

In all seriousness, how does the bishop handle WoW issues?

 

Lots depends. Though you might be asked to avoid iced tea for a while. 

 

Church Courts really only happen for the most serious of offenses. An off hand tea drinking splurge doesn't make a serious offense. Passing out the Fireside Tea to the neighborhood kids at a Fireside is a serious offense not only against the Church, but the State as well.

[ksfisher]

Point of clarification: Let's say you were out with friends and one thing led to another and before you knew it, you were slamming down iced teas like a mad man. Do you just drive to the bishop's house and leave your TR in his mailbox? Or does not count if you're more than 200 miles from his house?

Seriously, I'm assuming that even one drink is enough to constitute breaking of the covenant, but then what? Is it an automatic TR revocation? Does it go to a court of love?

And what is the repentance process like? Do you have to wear a scarlet T or change your route to work to avoid passing Starbucks?

And how long is the process? In other words, how long before your child's wedding do you have to be clean to be able to attend?

In all seriousness, how does the bishop handle WoW issues?

 

The bishop has great latitude in matters such as this.  As he counsels with the individual and prayerfully considers that persons needs the Spirit will reveal  what the proper course of action should be.