Boyd K. Packer Second Comforter?

[Coreyb]

"And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father"

"Their words are my words"  -Boyd K. Packer

 

PS. Sorry for posting all the speculative topics this conference.

[The Nehor]

Yes, l grinned at that.

[CMZ]

This is one way to bear witness of Christ: cite a prior witness and then state that your witness is the same.

[ERMD]

He also said, "I know the Lord."

[Mystery Meat]

It was clear and in my opinion one of the most notable parts of conference. I find it interesting that it is not getting more discussion here because yesterday Elder Holland took a beating for being too dramatic without saying how he was so sure he knew. I think the word coy was used. But when President Packer says how he knows it is ignored.

[Anijen]

I had the same opinion that he was referring to seeing the Lord. This does not surprise me, I hold the opinion that most if not all the Apostles have seen the Lord. What surprised me was how young he must have been. Correct me if I am wrong did he not say this happened to him while a soldier in Japan during WWII?

Edited April 6, 2014 by Anijen

[Garden Girl]

I loved Elder Packer's talk, and his "I know the Lord" was not lost on me...

 

GG

[MiserereNobis]

As an outsider, please forgive me, but I just want to clarify what this is hinting at.  Did Elder Packard say that he had seen Jesus Christ literally?

 

(Of course, in Catholicism this is not an unheard of thing.  Many of our beloved Saints have had visions where they saw and spoke with Jesus and His Mother Mary.  It's almost a given thing that the greatest Saints have had this experience.)

[JLHPROF]

It's possible I suppose, but don't forget the distinction Joseph Smith made:

 

"It is one thing to be on the mount and hear the excellent voice, etc., and another to hear to voice declare to you, You have a part and lot in that kingdom."

 

Seeing a vision of the Savior doesn't necessarily mean receiving the second comforter/calling & election.

[Coreyb]

As an outsider, please forgive me, but I just want to clarify what this is hinting at.  Did Elder Packard say that he had seen Jesus Christ literally?

 

(Of course, in Catholicism this is not an unheard of thing.  Many of our beloved Saints have had visions where they saw and spoke with Jesus and His Mother Mary.  It's almost a given thing that the greatest Saints have had this experience.)

Yes, that is what we are inferring. Joseph Smith taught that the Holy Ghost is the comforter (first comforter). Those who follow Christ in humility and obedience have the opportunity to have Christ appear to them (the second comforter).

[MiserereNobis]

So, why hint at it?  Why not just come out and say it clearly and directly, as Joseph Smith did in the quote given?  Like I said, most of the greatest Catholic Saints have seen and talked with Jesus, so it's not like one would be claiming something that is utterly unheard of in Christianity (I must say honestly, though, that I do not know how protestants react to such things).

 

I have heard people say that such experiences are too sacred to discuss, but if that is the case then why hint at all?

 

ETA:  hmmm, my tone here might be a bit confrontational.  I don't mean it like that, so please read what I say with a questioning tone, not an aggressive one

Edited April 7, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[Anijen]

It would indeed be a sacred topic to be discussed. Such an event I would not broadcast it over the airwaves because from such a large number of people there would be those who would mock at such a sacred event. Having said that I do believe that the manner it was said it can infer such a thing, that is exactly what was inferred without having to say it. Bruce R. McConkie has inferred it as well as other church leaders. In some ways I wish they would be more literal and less cryptic about such things, but perhaps that is just me. I am grateful for such a wonderful conference and I have been uplifted.

[mfbukowski]

So, why hint at it?

It wasn't a hint, that was Mormonspeak for saying it outright.

Anything stronger would be considered as boasting about one's righteousness.

Comparing yourself to others who have had the.same experience makes you one of many and still gets the message across.

[livy111us]

That is similar verbiage that Bruce McConkie used in his last talk "Their words are now my words"

[The Nehor]

So, why hint at it?  Why not just come out and say it clearly and directly, as Joseph Smith did in the quote given?  Like I said, most of the greatest Catholic Saints have seen and talked with Jesus, so it's not like one would be claiming something that is utterly unheard of in Christianity (I must say honestly, though, that I do not know how protestants react to such things).

 

I have heard people say that such experiences are too sacred to discuss, but if that is the case then why hint at all?

 

ETA:  hmmm, my tone here might be a bit confrontational.  I don't mean it like that, so please read what I say with a questioning tone, not an aggressive one

The directive in the church is not to share experiences like that unless instructed otherwise by the visitor or (in some cases) your priesthood leader. There have been cases where those experiences were allowed to be shared (Joseph Smith for example) and some were held sacred for a time and only distributed publicly later. Some happen and are never shared.

It is not shame.

The reason Apostles hint at it (in my opinion) is that it avoids them being badgered with questions they would get if it was discussed openly while consoling the saints who know what to listen for.

It is important to note that this experience is not limited to Apostles. They just need it to be special witnesses.

[mfbukowski]

The directive in the church is not to share experiences like that unless instructed otherwise by the visitor or (in some cases) your priesthood leader. There have been cases where those experiences were allowed to be shared (Joseph Smith for example) and some were held sacred for a time and only distributed publicly later. Some happen and are never shared.

It is not shame.

The reason Apostles hint at it (in my opinion) is that it avoids them being badgered with questions they would get if it was discussed openly while consoling the saints who know what to listen for.

It is important to note that this experience is not limited to Apostles. They just need it to be special witnesses.

Indeed when I was bishop I was privileged to have a ward member share such an experience with me, a person who I know to be credible. It was an amazing experience just discussing it.

[mfbukowski]

In fact D&C 93 says
 

1Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

 

That doesn't say "in this lifetime", but it is understood that such a blessing can and does happen here remarkably often.

[The Nehor]

Indeed when I was bishop I was privileged to have a ward member share such an experience with me, a person who I know to be credible. It was an amazing experience just discussing it.

 

That is probably something I should mention. Many who have experiences like this go to their Priesthood Leader who has the gift of discernment to help. I know a brother (since dead) who was sitting in the temple and a new doctrine he had never heard taught or even hinted at came into his mind. He felt it was from God but it was foreign to his experience so he went to his Bishop to discuss it. The Bishop felt inspired to pass it up the chain and eventually a letter came back from an apostle saying the doctrine was true and that it was revealed to him due to his faithfulness and commanding him to keep it close until such a time as it would be revealed generally. According to him it had not been revealed. He died about 2 years ago and I am guessing is still waiting for the general revelation.

 

No, he did not tell me what the doctrine was. He just told an obnoxious Institute student (me) the story because said student was obnoxiously inquisitive about the gift of discernment and wanted to hear of any practical experiences with it he knew of so he told me the story without revealing the doctrine.

[cdowis]

"gift of discernment"

 

I feel that many have had such insights, especially in connection to temple work.  It is not shared because it is unnecessary for the general church membership, but has special meaning to the individual to whom it is revealed.

 

I find it unsettling that this brother went to the trouble to check it out.  You either get a revelation or not.  It seems abit spiritually immature to "check it out."  I think the Lord would be less likely to give him anything else -- you just keep your mouth shut.

Edited April 7, 2014 by cdowis

[The Nehor]

I feel this thread is inappropriate -- unnecessary speculation on a very sacred subject.  It is clear that a witness from the Holy Ghost is more lasting and impressing to the person than a vision.

 

A Vision is not what the Second Comforter is. It is more powerful then a witness from the Holy Ghost (and I am by no means diminishing the Holy Ghost's power). It's the kind of thing that can get your ticket stamped for exaltation or outer darkness.

[MiserereNobis]

In fact D&C 93 says

 

That doesn't say "in this lifetime", but it is understood that such a blessing can and does happen here remarkably often.

 

That would be in-line with the many experiences in Catholicism of Jesus appearing to people (and I'm not just referencing His face in a tortilla...)

[The Nehor]

That would be in-line with the many experiences in Catholicism of Jesus appearing to people (and I'm not just referencing His face in a tortilla...)

 

Atheism trumped the tortilla:

 

[ERMD]

Elder Holland made the same claim in April 2013 when he said, "These things I declare to you with the conviction Peter called the 'more sure word of prophecy.'"

 

Also, I have mentioned here before that Elder McConkie spoke to us on Christmas Day 1984 in the MTC.  He said, "I have a perfect knowledge that He (Jesus Christ) is the Son of God."

 

Powerful testimonies all.

[Nevo]

.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[wenglund]

 

"And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father"

"Their words are my words"  -Boyd K. Packer

 

PS. Sorry for posting all the speculative topics this conference.

 

 

I got the sense that Bro. Packer may figure that he won't be around for many more Conferences, and thus wished to leave an indelible witness similar to what Bro. McKonkie did at his last Conference, though I hope he will be around for many more since I do highly respect him.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-