Only For Those Who Were 30 Years Old And Up

[stemelbow]

I'm over 30 but I wasn't alive when all of this went down, so I feel it necessary to offer my two cents.

 

mormonweb has made some excellent posts here.  If I could say it any better than he has, I would.  But I can't, so I'll just say he's spot on, overall. 

[Scott Lloyd]

OD2 was the Mormon equivalent of a man walking on the moon?

Okay, Moderator, go ahead and close the thread. NOBODY is going to top this one!

Please read my posts for comprehension before reacting to them. I said that for many Church members, the impact was quite as great as the news of man walking on the moon. And I stand by that.

 

Again, for someone who wasn't there at the time, you seem to have quite a bit to say about what when down back then.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm over 30 but I wasn't alive when all of this went down, so I feel it necessary to offer my two cents.

 

mormonweb has made some excellent posts here.

Such as?

[cdowis]

If judging a person, allowing or disqualifying services,, by the color of one's skin isn't rascism, then come up with a better word for it.

 

 

 

 I can accept your blasphemy that our Creator is racist, or I can conclude that you are merely abysmally ignorant of the scriptures, that you have never read the Bible.

 

I leave such matters to the Lord, rather than telling the Creator what to do, based on my own puny understanding.

Edited March 3, 2014 by cdowis

[Spammer]

Sad that it should be your "only" memory of the event.

 

Maybe at age 12, one is still young enough to be oblivious to the pervasive content in news reports, especially for an event as singular as this, which, for many people in Church, had a similar impact as when man first walked on the moon.

 

Agreed.  I was definitely your average, oblivious 12 year old.  I have no reason to think that my experience was typical, though I will say that use of that particular word among family members and my peers in suburban SLC was common at the time.  Everyone I knew used to refer to 'ding dong ditch' and brazil nuts with different names.  We've come a long way.

[Calm]

Points well taken.

Thank you.

[Calm]

I'm over 30 but I wasn't alive when all of this went down….

This may be a crucial reason why you are judging his points as spot on, though I would have to know exactly what points you are supporting.

[Calm]

Everyone I knew used to refer to 'ding dong ditch' and brazil nuts with different names.  We've come a long way.

 

I think things have changed.  There was a girl a few years back in my Achievement Days class who repeated a racist joke of a relative as her current favourite joke.  I don't know if she even understood the implications but I do know not one other girl in the room laughed and all three of us leaders (including one who was an older 'native' Utahn) were appalled and each in our way gently encouraged her not to repeat it or anything like it ever again.

edited a rather unfortunate malapropism

Edited March 3, 2014 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

Spammer I agree, that is consistent to what I heard growing up. I think I only knew a couple of blacks in my school, who I believe were adopted into a white family. If only I had been raised differently, with more diversity. And I remember making racial slurs when very young, without any idea they were racist and or what that meant. For instance...enee, menee, minee, moe (sp)....and a few others that were common. Just like people say "that's "gay" or other phrases along those lines. We need to teach that these things are wrong from the git go. I definitely think the youth and their children will be far more loving than we were. Baloney on the world being evil. It's already been shown that teen pregnancy, murders, and rapes are down in numbers. I'm glad the world is more loving, even though there is a big rise in secularism. Maybe racism started because of religion. Maybe it has only just been "men speaking" in our scriptures, for the most part.

[stemelbow]

Such as?

 

You want me to go back and list his posts for you?  Post 23 and 24 or were good.  There were others but I stopped after a page or two looking. 

[stemelbow]

This may be a crucial reason why you are judging his points as spot on, though I would have to know exactly what points you are supporting.

 

That's a definite possibility.  And there are other possibilities. 

[Scott Lloyd]

I think things have changed.  There was a girl a few years back in my Achievement Days class who repeated a racist joke of a relative as her current favourite joke.  I don't know if she even understood the implications but I do know not one other girl in the room laughed and all three of us leaders (including one who was an older 'native' Utahn) were applauded and each in our way gently encouraged her not to repeat it or anything like it ever again.

Did you mean to say that the three of you were appalled, not "applauded"?

 

(Maybe it was an over-eager auto-correct function on your computer or device.)

[Calm]

Maybe racism started because of religion. 

The most racist place I have ever lived was in Russia.  And I certainly never heard anything remotely resembling a teaching that we should try to remove racism from our hearts because everyone is a child of God either.

[Calm]

Did you mean to say that the three of you were appalled, not "applauded"?

 

(Maybe it was an over-eager auto-correct function on your computer or device.)

No, it was one of those weird drug induced switches that occur for me way too many times but I usually catch in my proofreading before I post.  Thank you for catching this.

Took me four times and finally switching off the automatic coding and renewing the page to edit it…somehow I think the board was being a brat and laughing at my expense, wanting to continue the fun for as long as possible.

Edited March 3, 2014 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

You want me to go back and list his posts for you?  Post 23 and 24 or were good.  There were others but I stopped after a page or two looking. 

He was wrong to insinuate that the pervasive and nearly universal acclaim, joy and relief that were experienced collectively by the membership of the Church around the world in June 1978 and were observed by those of us who were alive and aware back then did not actually happen.

 

And if that's what you are supporting, and if you say he is "spot on" in doing so, your are misguided.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[CMZ]

Maybe this is one of those things where somebody can take an instance of an indifferent member, or perhaps of some member being disgruntled about blacks being allowed to receive the Priesthood, and then extrapolating one or both of those attitudes onto the general membership of the Church. And then in effect saying, "Because I have characterized you in such a manner you must accept my characterization."

[stemelbow]

He was wrong to insinuate that the pervasive and nearly universal acclaim, joy and relief that were experienced collectively by the membership of the Church around the world in June 1978 and were observed by those of us who were alive and aware back then did not actually happen.

 

And if that's what you are supporting, and if you say he is "spot on" in doing so, your are misguided.

 

So be it.  I wish there was more to convince me otherwise.  But, as it were, I wasn't around and kicking, so I can't be certain.  I could certainly be wrong and I have no problem with that. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Over the years, I have written a number of retrospective stories about the June 1978 revelation and its impact.

 

Here is one I wrote in 1999, after a poll had been taken asking readers' opinions of the top Church-related stories of the 20th century (this was on the verge of the turn of the century).

[Scott Lloyd]

So be it.  I wish there was more to convince me otherwise.  But, as it were, I wasn't around and kicking, so I can't be certain.  I could certainly be wrong and I have no problem with that. 

The notion that the widespread acclaim in the Church did not actually happen is a transparent falsehood. I was "around and kicking" then, and I'll debunk it whenever it crops up, especially when it comes from those who have nothing else to go on but their own supposition.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[wenglund]

In my newfound respect for your intellect, I assume that you realize that my concern is TOTALLY about the future. However, let me spell it out for those who are not so "hip to the jive."

Our ship has sailed with regards to American blacks and there's probably nothing we can do about that. And if we keep on our current course, our ship will sail with gays (and their growing allies). And in 36 years, our kids and grandkids will be online trying to convince the son or daughter of gay parents that we were all ecstatic when OD3 was "revealed." And they will even be less convinced than I am.

Just a thought ....

 

As much as I admire you as a person, I am not prepared as yet to sustain you as a prophet, seer, and revelator. For those not down with your smack, this means that your kooky predictions about the Church don't pass the smell test since, while you and pop culture may indeed be intent on trudging digressively towards Gomorah, and may be well on your way, the plan of our Father in Heaven is one of progression towards Him and his Son. In short, the Church doesn't inanely equate skin color with sexual perversion like you do, and so you and the Church are unavoidably headed in different directions in this specific case. To each their own happy or miserable trails.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 3, 2014 by wenglund

[Danzo]

In my newfound respect for your intellect, I assume that you realize that my concern is TOTALLY about the future. However, let me spell it out for those who are not so "hip to the jive."

Our ship has sailed with regards to American blacks and there's probably nothing we can do about that. And if we keep on our current course, our ship will sail with gays (and their growing allies). And in 36 years, our kids and grandkids will be online trying to convince the son or daughter of gay parents that we were all ecstatic when OD3 was "revealed." And they will even be less convinced than I am.

Just a thought ....

 

Instead of calling everyone here deluded or liars, why don't you provide evidence that people weren't ecstatic or elated. Maybe you can find evidence of members being reluctant or complaining about it, then you can provide us with evidence those members represented the the saints at the time.

 

Then we can evaluate your evidence against other evidence that has been presented here.

[stemelbow]

The notion that the widespread acclaim in the Church did not actually happen is a transparent falsehood. I was "around and kicking" then, and I'll debunk it whenever it crops up, especially when it comes from those who have nothing else to go on than their own supposition.

 

Alright.  It'd be fascinating to be able to get such a view of the whole Church, for sure.  I didn't know anyone would have that perspective, except perhaps God.  YOu had used "universal" before to describe it.  From what's been reported that just doesn't seem to have been the case.  But the previous personal reports I've heard could have been wrong.  I grant that.  So I'm open to the possibility. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Alright.  It'd be fascinating to be able to get such a view of the whole Church, for sure.  I didn't know anyone would have that perspective, except perhaps God.  YOu had used "universal" before to describe it.  From what's been reported that just doesn't seem to have been the case.  But the previous personal reports I've heard could have been wrong.  I grant that.  So I'm open to the possibility. 

I said "nearly universal." Meaning that the exceptions were so rare and anomalous that they would have been viewed as odd by the general membership of the Church.

 

Of course, anti-Mormons are accustomed to seizing upon the anomalous. Anything to discredit the Church of Jesus Christ.

 

(Not saying you are anti-Mormon, though in this, you may or may not have been influenced by what they say.)

Edited March 3, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[wenglund]

Instead of calling everyone here deluded or liars, why don't you provide evidence that people weren't ecstatic or elated. Maybe you can find evidence of members being reluctant or complaining about it, then you can provide us with evidence those members represented the the saints at the time.

 

Then we can evaluate your evidence against other evidence that has been presented here.

 

I am afraid you don't get my good man, Mormonnewb. Evidence is not what is of value to him. Rather, it is "feelings". As long as he "feels bad," the harsh and sweeping accusations stand undeterred. You can compile tons of evidence to the contrary (as we have been doing here in this thread), and point out the rank hypocrisy of negative stereotyping and the sort, but it is no match for the liberal heart.

 

But, I appreciate you trying. What you said will definitely resonate with those of us who use our minds as well as our hearts.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund- 

Edited March 4, 2014 by wenglund

[mormonnewb]

Please read my posts for comprehension before reacting to them. I said that for many Church members, the impact was quite as great as the news of man walking on the moon. And I stand by that.

Again, for someone who wasn't there at the time, you seem to have quite a bit to say about what when down back then.

Despite my limited reading comprehension skills, let me see if I understand you. For MANY faithful Mormons learning that blacks would receive the priesthood was treated with elation despite the fact that THE DAY BEFORE they would have vehemently argued that it was against God's will.

By analogy, this would mean that those scientists who argued that a moon launch was impossible and staked their professional reputation on its impossibility were the first to shed tears of joy when it happened. Does this seem logical?

Because, by that logic, Mitt Romney would still be crying tears of joy for the re-election of Barak Obama, despite spending two years arguing against it.

So perhaps if you can point to any other time in human history where people have fought for one position and then rejoiced upon realizing their error, I might be willing to believe that the saints were among this most rare breed of humans.