Understanding current LGBT criticisms with a historical precedent

[california boy]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

We do have to put our foot down at some point, right?

What gives me hope is that --- barring the juggernaut of LGBT activism being an invincible tsunami --- the Big 12 is fundamentally very different from the extremely left-wing and snobbish Pac 12. BYU is a much better fit with these schools from the former Big 8 and Southwest Conferences (not West Virginia) culturally than with Pac 12 schools, which hate BYU and everything it stands for in a much more primeval way. 

Although wouldn't mind Big 12 membership, I want BYU to remain independent (I love the variety of the schedule and the availability of the games to watch). The problem is that that is the fastest route to the type of isolation and ostracism that LGBT activism wants to inflict on BYU, so at this point (after this week's happenings), I now want conference membership. I don't want the activists to win --- and, as waverider has pointed out, they are set not just on winning, but on revenge and continuing sanctions. The LGBT activists are the functional equivalent of the biker gang on Pee Wee's Big Adventure. "I say we stab him! Then we stomp him! Then we hang him! Then we kill him!"

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E88HEuwInno

In the end the way the gay activist juggernaut as it is so often referred to on this board is going to win this fight against discrimination is through the courts.  It is already illegal to discriminate. They just have to have those laws enforced. 

Yes BYU has every right to discriminate against gay students, but the federal government is not going to subsidize their discrimination through government grants and student loans.  And the Big Ten is not going to go against their  core values to include a school that discriminates against gay students.  BYU is already isolating itself by its policies directed against gay students. It will become even more apparent as time goes by. 

[california boy]

24 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

And yet three Pac 12 teams have agreed to play BYU this year.

As pressure mounts, and BYU's discrimination policies become more well known, that will change. History is just repeating itself.  Mormons are fooling themselves if they think the results will be different. Why would they be. 

Edited August 12, 2016 by california boy

[rongo]

54 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

And yet three Pac 12 teams have agreed to play BYU this year.

There's a difference between playing BYU and allowing them to be in the conference. LGBT activists are trying to make even playing BYU become odious --- to make them a pariah.

There is a lot of overt and covert anti-Mormon bias towards BYU at Cal-Berkley and Stanford in particular. When citing reasons for exclusion that don't get into politico-religious reasons, lack of a medical school and not being a prestigious enough "research" school are prominent. It's silly that those are supposed to be criteria for athletic association.

The thing that makes the Big 12 controversy interesting is that BYU is much higher ranked than other Big 12 schools, academically, than maybe Texas. And it blows the other admission candidates out of the water, so academic prestige can't be mentioned. BYU would be a boon to the conference financially and commercially (this is universally-acknowledged, even by those who openly don't want BYU to be accepted). BYU has its own exclusive lucrative contract with ESPN for that reason --- BYU games get high ratings. 

If BYU doesn't get in, it will be because the conference calculated that crossing the LGBT juggernaut is too costly. Which is what the activists are hoping ---- that their clout is that powerful. And this will embolden them going forward.

Edited August 12, 2016 by rongo

[carbon dioxide]

46 minutes ago, california boy said:

As pressure mounts, and BYU's discrimination policies become more well known, that will change. History is just repeating itself.  Mormons are fooling themselves if they think the results will be different. Why would they be. 

People keep claiming that but it rarely is true.  If you think BYU will abandon the honor code for sports is extreme wishful thinking.  I think the Church would sell off BYU to the state of Utah rather than continue to own and run BYU without an honor code.  More likely they would just abandon sports all together.  BYU Idaho and BYU Hawaii are not big sports schools. So taking out sports would not be the end of the world for the Church.

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

People keep claiming that but it rarely is true.  If you think BYU will abandon the honor code for sports is extreme wishful thinking.  I think the Church would sell off BYU to the state of Utah rather than continue to own and run BYU without an honor code.  More likely they would just abandon sports all together.  BYU Idaho and BYU Hawaii are not big sports schools. So taking out sports would not be the end of the world for the Church.

I don't think california boy was saying that BYU/the Church would cave. Just that BYU would eventually find itself unable to schedule games against anyone. 

I agree that BYU would give up sports if it came to that, just as I think that eventually LDS bishops will no longer perform civil marriages.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

In the end the way the gay activist juggernaut as it is so often referred to on this board is going to win this fight against discrimination is through the courts.  It is already illegal to discriminate. They just have to have those laws enforced. 

Yes BYU has every right to discriminate against gay students, but the federal government is not going to subsidize their discrimination through government grants and student loans.  And the Big Ten is not going to go against their  core values to include a school that discriminates against gay students.  BYU is already isolating itself by its policies directed against gay students. It will become even more apparent as time goes by. 

The whippings shall continue until compliance is ensured.  Got it.

Edited August 12, 2016 by USU78
they won't stop at one

[USU78]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't think california boy was saying that BYU/the Church would cave. Just that BYU would eventually find itself unable to schedule games against anyone. 

I agree that BYU would give up sports if it came to that, just as I think that eventually LDS bishops will no longer perform civil marriages.

Wrongo.  cb is saying they'll continue to seek to use anti-discrimination laws and pressure upon regulators and via the courts otherwise in order to compel compliance by the noncompliant.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

People keep claiming that but it rarely is true.  If you think BYU will abandon the honor code for sports is extreme wishful thinking.  I think the Church would sell off BYU to the state of Utah rather than continue to own and run BYU without an honor code.  More likely they would just abandon sports all together.  BYU Idaho and BYU Hawaii are not big sports schools. So taking out sports would not be the end of the world for the Church.

I never said BYU would abandon the honor code.   I think that is doubtful . I also think selling BYU is doubtful as well.  

[california boy]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

The whippings shall continue until compliance is ensured.  Got it.

Says the university that discriminates against gays. Yeah they are the victims for not allow gays to even date or hold hands. For gays, that has become a sin that shall not be tolerated right along with forbidding their children from being baptized. I guess we are suppose to feel sorry for poor misunderstood BYU. 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

Wrongo.  cb is saying they'll continue to seek to use anti-discrimination laws and pressure upon regulators and via the courts otherwise in order to compel compliance by the noncompliant.

 I know one of your favorite things to do is to misrepresent what I say. But you are the wrongo.  I specifically stated that BYU has every legal right to discriminate against gays or blacks or any other group it wishes to. BYU is a private university. The courts cannot compel BYU to change its honor code. That doesn't mean there are not consequences  l

Leagues are not legally compelled to accept BYU to join them and the federal government can choose to give federal aid to only those schools that meet their criteria  

 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

I don't think california boy was saying that BYU/the Church would cave. Just that BYU would eventually find itself unable to schedule games against anyone. 

I agree that BYU would give up sports if it came to that, just as I think that eventually LDS bishops will no longer perform civil marriages.

Thank you for stating my opinion accurately. I only wish others would do the same. 

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Yeah they are the victims for not allow gays to even date or hold hands. 

This point keeps getting made.  I guess I don't understand to what end would it be if BYU allowed gays to merely "date", but not engage in sexual relations?

[BCSpace]

The OP's comparison of homosexuals' fight for additional rights with black civil rights is ludicrous.  Only a corrupt and partial court, and we have several, would consider homosexuality as rising to the level of suspect classification.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, SteveO said:

This point keeps getting made.  I guess I don't understand to what end would it be if BYU allowed gays to merely "date", but not engage in sexual relations?

Not allowing sex outside of marriage for anyone is not a discrimination policy  Allowing straight couples to date, hold hands, kiss etc the ones they love but kicking out gay couples for acting on that same behavior gets them kicked out of the university   One group is being discriminated against simply because of who they are attracted to.

 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, BCSpace said:

The OP's comparison of homosexuals' fight for additional rights with black civil rights is ludicrous.  Only a corrupt and partial court, and we have several, would consider homosexuality as rising to the level of suspect classification.

The courts in this country represent 1/3 of our governing body. Their job is to ensure that no laws are passed that violate the civil rights guaranteed to every American by the constitution of the United States. Every federal and district court in this country inturped those guaranteed rights the exact same way. Could that possibly mean that your legal opinion may be in error?

[california boy]

From a news article yesterday reporting on a talk by Marco Rubio to an anti gay conference in Florida. This is from a guy who only months ago was calling for a constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage.  Can anyone see how BYU's discriminatechurch policies are going to be viewed in the near future?

 

Marco Rubio spoke Friday at an event hosted by the Florida Renewal Project in Orlando, a gathering of anti-LGBT pastors, on the two-month anniversary of the massacre at Pulse Nightclub.

Rubio urged tolerance toward LGBT people despite spewing rhetoric during the presidential primary that says the opposite.

“In order to love people you have to listen to them,” Rubio, who is losing his lead in a primary challenge set for August 30. “We have to abandon the spirit of judgment.”

Said Rubio:

“When it comes to our brothers and our sisters, our fellow Americans, our neighbors in the LGBT community, we should recognize, that our nation, while the greatest nation in the history of mankind, is one whose history has been marred by discrimination against and rejection of gays and lesbians.”

Added Rubio:

“To love our neighbors in the LGBT we should recognize that even as we stand firm in the belief that marriage is the union between one man and one woman, there are those in that community, in same-sex relationships, whose love for one another is real and who feel angry and humiliated that the law id not recognize their relationship as a marriage. To love our neighbors we must recognize that many have experienced sometimes severe condemnation and judgment from some Christians. They have heard some say that the reason God will bring condemnation on America is because of them — as if somehow God was willing to put up with adultery and gluttony and greed and pride, but now this is the last straw.”

[california boy]

From a news article yesterday reporting on a talk by Marco Rubio to an anti gay conference in Florida. This is from a guy who only months ago was calling for a constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage.  Can anyone see how BYU's discriminatechurch policies are going to be viewed in the near future?

 

Marco Rubio spoke Friday at an event hosted by the Florida Renewal Project in Orlando, a gathering of anti-LGBT pastors, on the two-month anniversary of the massacre at Pulse Nightclub.

Rubio urged tolerance toward LGBT people despite spewing rhetoric during the presidential primary that says the opposite.

“In order to love people you have to listen to them,” Rubio, who is losing his lead in a primary challenge set for August 30. “We have to abandon the spirit of judgment.”

Said Rubio:

“When it comes to our brothers and our sisters, our fellow Americans, our neighbors in the LGBT community, we should recognize, that our nation, while the greatest nation in the history of mankind, is one whose history has been marred by discrimination against and rejection of gays and lesbians.”

Added Rubio:

“To love our neighbors in the LGBT we should recognize that even as we stand firm in the belief that marriage is the union between one man and one woman, there are those in that community, in same-sex relationships, whose love for one another is real and who feel angry and humiliated that the law id not recognize their relationship as a marriage. To love our neighbors we must recognize that many have experienced sometimes severe condemnation and judgment from some Christians. They have heard some say that the reason God will bring condemnation on America is because of them — as if somehow God was willing to put up with adultery and gluttony and greed and pride, but now this is the last straw.”

[Five Solas]

On 8/10/2016 at 3:22 PM, phaedrus ut said:

And there is not one iota of evidence to indicate that the priesthood doctrine of the Mormon Church interferes with the civil rights of any person. Black members of the Mormon Church do not object to it. 

1970. 

Published in my city's own "Post-Intelligencer" (no longer available as a "paper" - but you can access it online here: http://www.seattlepi.com/).  Paid for by the LDS Church/BYU in response to students at my alma mater. 

Everyone here would be well-served to spare a couple minutes and, "ponderize."  In my opinion...

;0)

--Erik

[cinepro]

On 8/11/2016 at 7:32 PM, carbon dioxide said:

I believe in the freedom of association and if its a private club, I think they can do whatever they want.  If my neighbor does not want native Americans to walk on his lawn, why should I care? Its his lawn.

The issue isn't one of forceful compliance (nice diversionary tactic, though).  You're allowed to have an opinion about the morality of something without also condoning a restriction in freedom.

But hopefully if your neighbor regularly let's people in the community walk on his lawn (say, it's a convenient shortcut for people to get to where they are going), and then he puts up a sign saying "Everyone is welcome to cross my lawn except Native Americans" you would have a problem with it.

[california boy]

On August 14, 2016 at 4:56 AM, Five Solas said:

1970. 

Published in my city's own "Post-Intelligencer" (no longer available as a "paper" - but you can access it online here: http://www.seattlepi.com/).  Paid for by the LDS Church/BYU in response to students at my alma mater. 

Everyone here would be well-served to spare a couple minutes and, "ponderize."  In my opinion...

;0)

--Erik

Neither one of those links went to an article for me.  Is anyone else having a problem.

[stemelbow]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 2:49 PM, Rock_N_Roll said:

And yet three Pac 12 teams have agreed to play BYU this year.

Oh yeah...there is some added complexity here.  It certainly doesn't mean anything to the Pac 12 for it's members to play BYU or anyone else for that matter, in non conference games. 

[Gray]

On 8/12/2016 at 5:02 PM, carbon dioxide said:

People keep claiming that but it rarely is true.  If you think BYU will abandon the honor code for sports is extreme wishful thinking.  I think the Church would sell off BYU to the state of Utah rather than continue to own and run BYU without an honor code.  More likely they would just abandon sports all together.  BYU Idaho and BYU Hawaii are not big sports schools. So taking out sports would not be the end of the world for the Church.

Didn't the students invent the honor code on their own? Why such extreme attachment to it?

[stemelbow]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 3:11 PM, california boy said:

In the end the way the gay activist juggernaut as it is so often referred to on this board is going to win this fight against discrimination is through the courts.  It is already illegal to discriminate. They just have to have those laws enforced. 

Yes BYU has every right to discriminate against gay students, but the federal government is not going to subsidize their discrimination through government grants and student loans.  And the Big Ten is not going to go against their  core values to include a school that discriminates against gay students.  BYU is already isolating itself by its policies directed against gay students. It will become even more apparent as time goes by. 

The Big Ten?  Oh man...there's no hope with this one.  Sometimes trying to futile.  Luckily the point carries meaning even if the giver is completely ignorant of college athletics. 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

The Big Ten?  Oh man...there's no hope with this one.  Sometimes trying to futile.  Luckily the point carries meaning even if the giver is completely ignorant of college athletics. 

LOL yeah I am much more interested in the principles involved than the football team.  I haven't followed college football for a long time.  I love watching the games, but the time commitment is too high for me.  I would rather be out doing something than watching the TV.  Though I completely understand the passion of following sorts.

[Rock_N_Roll]

As a die-hard Cougar fan:

I hope BYU gets into the PAC 12.

I hope the new coaching staff is as great as the hype,

I hope for some revenge on Sep 10th,

And I hope they ease up the Honor Code for LGBT students.