Slip Sliding Away.

[Kenngo1969]

It is common for converts, to any religion, to retreat to the familiar (and therefore comfortable) in times of stress. My retreat after converting to Catholicism was atheism. I asked myself and God, "Where would I go?" (John 6:67-69) I have no where to go, but Him.

 

Retreating to time alone, away from all thoughts and pressure is a healthy practice of a spiritual life. But, retreats are meant to end. God sends us out into the world, to be His hands and face to others. No one is a Christian alone.

Whatever differences we might have, that's actually very well said, Saemo.  Kudos to you.

[Raingirl]

Ah...but that is not what I said.

[Avatar4321]

I am sorry to hear about your struggle. I hope you realize that we will always love you and love to have you with us all the time.

 

I am not sure what you see as incompatible with science. I've always found the Gospel very open to science. President Eyring's father for example was an amazing scientist and had faith I can only imagine

 

I would hope you don't make any decision too quickly. Fast and pray to the Lord. Ask Him if the Book of Mormon and the other scriptures are true. Every day of my life I am more and more convinced the Church is true and that God loves us no matter what. It's very humbling.

[Coreyb]

Ellen, the Gospel of Christ will always have room for you. We will love you no matter what

[Tacenda]

Ellen, every time I see the OP I start singing it in my head!! The song was a big hit by Paul Simon.

I just want to wish you well as always, and hope you stay in touch here and in your ward in Oregon. The church needs people like you because it helps others know that our church is accepting of all. The problem being policy, concerning your not being able to get a TR, but policy in this church has been known to change in the past. EDIT: (IMO, it's policy.)

And those you have served will most likely miss you. Bless you and I pray you don't suffer too much with FB.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

Love that song.  I'm tempted to post a link, but I don't think it'd be appropriate, given the subject matter of the thread.

[jana at jade house]

Sister,  Whomever gave you the impression that the Atonement is withheld from you was probably having a ham-handed time of it in a situation that they were hardly prepared for in any way. It happens in an organization of volunteers. Sometimes life events set us in a place where we are far out of our skill set and comfort zone. We fumble, we flail, we make it worse than it was in the first place.  Can you forgive them their humanness, as you expect to be forgiven of your weaknesses?  I have some sympathy for your distress, certainly I as a struggling single mother could have used the blessing of Endowment, but at the time women of childbearing age were not routinely given permission to attend the Temple.  Other married sisters were imprisoned by their unbelieving  husband's total lack of support and had to await his permission.  Those bans are lifted today generally,  but sometimes temple recommends still are not issued. It bothers folks every single time, but every single time it turns out there might have been a good reason. I can understand your feelings of not being qualified. but not qualified for the Temple is NOT the same as disqualified for  the Atonement. As far as I can tell, that position is reserved for Satan and the Sons of Perdition.   Everyone, every single one, qualifies for Atonement and Resurrection. That's what Jehovah did, because, unlike leadership in SLC, He knows every hair on your head.  This is your refining fire. This is your time to prepare for the Millennium, when so many of earth's shortfalls will be made right. This is your Abraham's challenge. This is your time to grow in your relationship to Jesus Christ, which should have very little to do with the institution of the Church and everything to do with turning your entire heart to Christ.  I might suggest you give yourself some time to think about the next decisions you make.  

Sister, because today I am married to a man who is totally without belief, I am not sealed.  Not to him, not to my children, not to my grandchildren.  Thus I am not qualified either for fullness of exaltation. I too have to hope for the Millennium to set things right. But in the meantime,  I have full access to the power of the Atonement. I can be better, I can do better. I can make myself ready for the day that I AM qualified.

Walking away is not  an option for me.

[thesometimesaint]

I can't make civilized decisions when I am hurt and angry, so just don't know what will happen now.  Perhaps they see a risk. It is not about morality at all, else the Atonement would have no value. Yes, I know that full on Islam does not treat Jesus the Christ with proper respect and I find that unacceptable. Though I do know certain Muslims who quietly value him in the so called "Christian" way.

 

Saying I was lied to in the Missionary lessons feels too harsh. Perhaps dissembled to is a better choice of words. And, importantly, the Mormon sisters were used by God to save a life, though I often wonder at their wisdom in doing so.  Sickeningly, I have run into Mormon men at the Ward and Stake level and above who tried to devalue the sister's contribution at first but they learned rather quickly not to do that to my face.  Our Ward mission leader forced me to take the lessons all over again, saying the sisters lacked authority.  I did not become Mormon because of misogynistic men but to serve Heavenly Father. Mormon worship practices did not draw me or offend me. So, I could perhaps have gone to a soup kitchen to help out on Sunday instead of church? In the end, I strive to keep my eye on my true Master, and to not become disillusioned by the less than Godly, of which I am one.

 

It has been surprising that so many Mormons do not know the Bible well at all. Though I will likely never know the Bom well either. The Qur'an, while at times beautiful prose, gives mixed messages, and in the end the presidence of Fatwas and Hadeeths over the Qur'an was maddening at times. I try to follow a Muslim group called "Qur'an only" but they are elusive and seem to be only in the UK. I have little doubt that "regular" Muslims have death threats out on them. To see how bankrupt Islam is in the world today, you just need to turn the news on; Muslims killing Muslims, beheadings, stonings and imprisonments ...  So, while at times returning to Islam seems like the only way out, I have to ask myself, out of what?

 

And the old guys in Salt Lake City do not even know I am alive, of my love for Heavenly Father, or what I came from ... they have bigger fish to fry. Knowing that I am nothing to them, what stops me from quietly doing the will of my Father in Heaven?  It is awful and demeaning to not be a mature tower of strength at all times. I do not think they take Nuns older than 60, so what is there but to lie down to sleep tonight and hope for a better day tomorrow, after the understood prayers and study tonight.

 

I am listening to "Spem in Alium" as I write this.  It puts me in mind of the day we shall all see Heavenly Father on his throne, with the host of Angels and saints around him as in 1 Kings 22:19. How thrilling it would be to be one of those singing praises to our creator ...

 

Dear Ellen:

 

Please Please don't leave because a few idiots saying idiotic hurtful things. The Lord knows your trials and sufferings. I haven't told my good friends on this board as of yet. But I will do so now. twenty years ago I was permanently and totally disabled by two vicious attackers. Three years ago I was diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease, and last year I was diagnosed with catastrophic terminal kidney failure. I don't tell these things out of a plea for sympathy. I have has plenty of good fiends and family to help me through the "Pity Parties" I sometimes have. The Lord has maintained me, supported my when down. He has given me the courage to see this through the bitter end of my life, and to a promised glorious resurrection on the other side.

 

Your friend in Christ

Thesometimesaint.

[saemo]

Dear Ellen:

 

Please Please don't leave because a few idiots saying idiotic hurtful things. The Lord knows your trials and sufferings. I haven't told my good friends on this board as of yet. But I will do so now. twenty years ago I was permanently and totally disabled by two vicious attackers. Three years ago I was diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease, and last year I was diagnosed with catastrophic terminal kidney failure. I don't tell these things out of a plea for sympathy. I have has plenty of good fiends and family to help me through the "Pity Parties" I sometimes have. The Lord has maintained me, supported my when down. He has given me the courage to see this through the bitter end of my life, and to a promised glorious resurrection on the other side.

 

Your friend in Christ

Thesometimesaint.

This saddens me.

May The Lord bless you and keep you. May The Lord let his face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May The Lord show his face to you and bring peace.

[thesometimesaint]

This saddens me.

May The Lord bless you and keep you. May The Lord let his face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May The Lord show his face to you and bring peace.

 

Thank you from the very bottom of my heart.

[Calm]

Dear Ellen:

Please Please don't leave because a few idiots saying idiotic hurtful things. The Lord knows your trials and sufferings. I haven't told my good friends on this board as of yet. But I will do so now. twenty years ago I was permanently and totally disabled by two vicious attackers. Three years ago I was diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease, and last year I was diagnosed with catastrophic terminal kidney failure. I don't tell these things out of a plea for sympathy. I have has plenty of good fiends and family to help me through the "Pity Parties" I sometimes have. The Lord has maintained me, supported my when down. He has given me the courage to see this through the bitter end of my life, and to a promised glorious resurrection on the other side.

Your friend in Christ

Thesometimesaint.

TSS, I appreciate you being willing to share. It greatly helps in understanding some of your approaches to challengers and your strength in defending your convictions.

I was just thinking last night how we talk about the vulnerable among us as if it was a small part of our community...is it worth it to remember that each speech made, every article written there will be someone vulnerable hearing or reading it? Sometimes the attitude is since they are damaged already nothing we can do will help so let's focus on keeping the healthy ones healthy...but there is a difference between vulnerable and damaged, the scriptures speak lovingly and well of the vulnerable as the Spirit can so much easier root in the well turned soil.

But the reality is mortality has placed us all in situations of vulnerability because that is when the Spirit can reach us in new ways, that is when we seek after God rather than letting him do all the work. We are too good at creating walls between those right in front of us, imagine what a wall can be built for someone many of us don't even believe exists? God needs to be using a sledgehammer to keep the lines open if we do not allow ourselves to listen to the still small voice that can penetrate even our lead lined brain cases. And sledgehammers aren't gentle and leave vulnerable people in their wake. We are all vulnerable, we are all in some version of Liberty Jail. The spiritually and emotionally and physically robust is the exception, the one that needs gentle, compassion care is the rule.

This is much easier to see one to one, face to face; much more difficult when in community mode especially when it is so easy to see the strength while we hide our weaknesses away for various and good reasons.

Edited February 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

TSS, I appreciate you being willing to share. It greatly helps in understanding some of your approaches to challengers and your strength in defending your convictions.

I was just thinking last night how we talk about the vulnerable among us as if it was a small part of our community...is it worth it to remember that each speech made, every article written there will be someone vulnerable hearing or reading it? Sometimes the attitude is since they are damaged already nothing we can do will help so let's focus on keeping the healthy ones healthy...but there is a difference between vulnerable and damaged, the scriptures speak lovingly and well of the vulnerable as the Spirit can so much easier root in the well turned soil.

But the reality is mortality has placed us all in situations of vulnerability because that is when the Spirit can reach us in new ways, that is when we seek after God rather than letting him do all the work. We are too good at creating walls between those right in front of us, imagine what a wall can be built for someone many of us don't even believe exists? God needs to be using a sledgehammer to keep the lines open if we do not allow ourselves to listen to the still small voice that can penetrate even our lead lined brain cases. And sledgehammers aren't gentle and leave vulnerable people in their wake. We are all vulnerable, we are all in some version of Liberty Jail. The spiritually and emotionally and physically robust is the exception, the one that needs gentle, compassion care is the rule.

This is much easier to see one to one, face to face; much more difficult when in community mode especially when it is so easy to see the strength while we hide our weaknesses away for various and good reasons.

Some great points, of us from deacon to Prophets needs to understand that thinking it is our duty to put someone in their place. Not to mention that we are usually always speaking to investigators and those newly baptized. All should be treated with soft voices and soft eyes, which btw is how GA's treat us because that is how Christ did it. The "still small voice" is the one that speaks the loudest to our souls.

[teddyaware]

I can't make civilized decisions when I am hurt and angry, so just don't know what will happen now.  Perhaps they see a risk. It is not about morality at all, else the Atonement would have no value. Yes, I know that full on Islam does not treat Jesus the Christ with proper respect and I find that unacceptable. Though I do know certain Muslims who quietly value him in the so called "Christian" way.

 

Saying I was lied to in the Missionary lessons feels too harsh. Perhaps dissembled to is a better choice of words. And, importantly, the Mormon sisters were used by God to save a life, though I often wonder at their wisdom in doing so.  Sickeningly, I have run into Mormon men at the Ward and Stake level and above who tried to devalue the sister's contribution at first but they learned rather quickly not to do that to my face.  Our Ward mission leader forced me to take the lessons all over again, saying the sisters lacked authority.  I did not become Mormon because of misogynistic men but to serve Heavenly Father. Mormon worship practices did not draw me or offend me. So, I could perhaps have gone to a soup kitchen to help out on Sunday instead of church? In the end, I strive to keep my eye on my true Master, and to not become disillusioned by the less than Godly, of which I am one.

 

It has been surprising that so many Mormons do not know the Bible well at all. Though I will likely never know the Bom well either. The Qur'an, while at times beautiful prose, gives mixed messages, and in the end the presidence of Fatwas and Hadeeths over the Qur'an was maddening at times. I try to follow a Muslim group called "Qur'an only" but they are elusive and seem to be only in the UK. I have little doubt that "regular" Muslims have death threats out on them. To see how bankrupt Islam is in the world today, you just need to turn the news on; Muslims killing Muslims, beheadings, stonings and imprisonments ...  So, while at times returning to Islam seems like the only way out, I have to ask myself, out of what?

 

And the old guys in Salt Lake City do not even know I am alive, of my love for Heavenly Father, or what I came from ... they have bigger fish to fry. Knowing that I am nothing to them, what stops me from quietly doing the will of my Father in Heaven?  It is awful and demeaning to not be a mature tower of strength at all times. I do not think they take Nuns older than 60, so what is there but to lie down to sleep tonight and hope for a better day tomorrow, after the understood prayers and study tonight.

 

I am listening to "Spem in Alium" as I write this.  It puts me in mind of the day we shall all see Heavenly Father on his throne, with the host of Angels and saints around him as in 1 Kings 22:19. How thrilling it would be to be one of those singing praises to our creator ...

I, like you, have been suffering emotionally for a long time because I was horribly betrayed several times some years ago by several different people. Nevertheless, I keep plugging.

I'm one of the Latter-day Saints who does have a good knowledge of the Bible, so if you have some thorny questions about some difficult passages in the Bible, I would be glad to try to shed some light where you may need it.

I seem to remember you had some very out of the ordinary issues with which you are struggling. Perhaps you could either lay them out in the open on this thread, or, if you already have laid them out in the open, perhaps you could point me to a thread or two where you set forth your struggles. It would be helpful to know exactly what's troubling you that we might be better be able to understand why you're feeling poorly about the Church and its leaders.

One thing I can tell you based on abundant personal experience, for some of us the secret of mortal life is learning how to be happy even when you're miserable. I know this sounds like an oxymoron but I've learned it's a true principle. I wish you all the best.

Edited February 28, 2014 by teddyaware

[Calm]

teddy, Gwen/Ellen has referred to her experiences in a number of threads but this one is the most detailed and systematic:

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62688-saving-lives/

[EllenMaksoud]

I feel quietness right now, not saying much, listening for Heavenly Father to speak.

[Avatar4321]

Dear Ellen:

 

Please Please don't leave because a few idiots saying idiotic hurtful things. The Lord knows your trials and sufferings. I haven't told my good friends on this board as of yet. But I will do so now. twenty years ago I was permanently and totally disabled by two vicious attackers. Three years ago I was diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease, and last year I was diagnosed with catastrophic terminal kidney failure. I don't tell these things out of a plea for sympathy. I have has plenty of good fiends and family to help me through the "Pity Parties" I sometimes have. The Lord has maintained me, supported my when down. He has given me the courage to see this through the bitter end of my life, and to a promised glorious resurrection on the other side.

 

Your friend in Christ

Thesometimesaint.

 

I can't imagine going through that. But endure it well and you will be blessed.

[Avatar4321]

I feel quietness right now, not saying much, listening for Heavenly Father to speak.

 

Sometimes the quietness and peace is the greatest witness.

[EllenMaksoud]

A couple people are being rude and lashing out. I just suggest that they read the first post. I'm not saying much because there needs to be peace in my soul first. I've been in level 8-9 muscular/joint pain for around a month, so I am not nice or approachable. Some of you have had very kind comments to me. Thank you.

[jana at jade house]

Just remember, that during an important test, even the teacher is silent. Sometimes He leaves us to ourselves so that we are act-ors, not acted upon.  This is a crossroads.   May you choose wisely.    

[jana at jade house]

Sometimes Saint.  May God hold you in the palm of His hand.   I can't begin to imagine....

[thesometimesaint]

Thank You all for the warm kind expressions. I feel well blessed by it.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Return to Islam makes more and more sense to me. March 11th makes three years with the Mormons. I retain my belief in Jesus the Christ in the Mormon way but the rest ... not so much. You old guys in SLC, I wish you the best. Maybe when there is an old guy my age as President he will have been exposed to Science enough to right some wrongs. Until then, good luck.

Deleted wrong thread.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[jana at jade house]

Ellen, I wish you and your leaders were in our Stake Conference session tonight. The President was eloquent and very relevant to your situation. Just know that God is mindful of you and your eternal needs.  Don't look back. Look to the promised day.  

[EllenMaksoud]

I just wanted to thank you all for your kind words and encouragement. As I got up this morning, so many of the responsibilites I had that would force me to go to church just evaporated, so I decided I would stay home and be mad. Strangely, later without really thinking about it, I found myself dressed, with keys in hand, on the way to my car and to church. I did not know why I was going; just had a feeling, and I know when that happens ... well you know.

 

After three hours at church my mad was gone, and I felt contrite, yet comforted by Heavenly Father. I had not talked to anyone there about how wrong and painful and awful the world was, the spirit just did things for me that could not have happened without the willing obedience of just showing up. Thank you Heavenly Father for ministering to me when you could have just punished me for impertinence.

 

At testimony my anger was gone, and faith renewed, and I apologized for speaking in an ungodly way to some. I apologize to you also, and thank you for your patience and love.

 

Gwen Boucher (Ellen)

[rpn]

1. “When through the deep waters I call thee to go,

   The rivers of sorrow shall not overflow;

   For I will be with thee thy trouble to bless,

   And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.

2. “The soul that on Jesus doth lean for repose,

   I will not, I will not, desert to his foes;

   That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,

   I’ll never, no never, no never forsake.”