Cumorah ... Has Time Changed Your Mind?

[Sevenbak]

 

Why not that he just traveled from Mesoamerica, stopping in Manti along the way to dedicate a temple site, and then continue on to New York?

The problem I have with this line of thinking is that the same Brigham Young also used Nephites in their plural form to describer the sacred ground on which the St. George Temple was to be built.  You know, the whole hidden aquifer they had to stone over for some future time, but they couldn't move the temple, as the Nephites had dedicated the site to the Lord.

 

If that happened during the final battles of retreat, or if it was Mormon's homeland, or something else entirely, who knows… I doubt we'll ever know unless more records come forth.

[poulsenll]

Have you seen the map Joseph Smith drew showing Moroni's travel from Central America to New York stopping along the way to dedicate Temple sites. It is archived in the Church History Library in Salt Lake.

 

Larry P

[Calm]

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-fourth-nephi-through-moroni-zion-destruction/18-moroni-last-nephite-prophets

[Bob Crockett]

I will up you. 100 miles was an exceedingly great distance back in the day. You could not even walk that in a day.

I have, several times, and once as recently as 8 days ago.

 

Will Bagley makes the argument that the Native chiefs who received instructions from Brigham Young travelled, without horses, more than 300 miles in 3 days to lead the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

[Sevenbak]

Have you seen the map Joseph Smith drew showing Moroni's travel from Central America to New York stopping along the way to dedicate Temple sites. It is archived in the Church History Library in Salt Lake.

 

Larry P

Yes I have, and I don't buy it, for several reasons.  First and foremost, there are two maps, purportedly by different people with intimate knowledge from Joseph Smith.  Both maps are essentially the same, and apparently written by the same hand, and the style is the same, misspellings the same, etc.  Secondly, the maps also show a Moroni stop at the Kinderhook mound in Illinois, which raises all sorts of questions…  And lastly, why should I give credence to some anonymous person who apparently heard this straight from the prophet himself, while I'm constantly hearing from the meso-american only folks that unless it's first hand form the prophet, it didn't happen, even when it's his closest associates and apostles. It just doesn't add up on many levels. 

 

The biggest issues against the maps for me is that the Patriarch in Richfield that produced one of the maps, also made this statement, which contradicts the solo Moroni trip.

 

"the Route the old Nephites took travelling to Cumorah from the south and south west; of having to bury their tr[e]asures as they journeyed and finally burying the Records and precious things in the Hill Cumorah; of Moroni dedicating the Temple site of what we now call St. George, Nauvoo, Jackson Co., Kirtland, and others we know not of as yet."  

-Partriarch William McBride

Edited January 9, 2014 by Sevenbak

[Sevenbak]

I have, several times, and once as recently as 8 days ago.

 

Will Bagley makes the argument that the Native chiefs who received instructions from Brigham Young travelled, without horses, more than 300 miles in 3 days to lead the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Another thing that I find interesting relating to the exceedingly great distance is that Nephi and Lehi went into their mission into the land northward with no success, and were gone 7 years.

 

And… when the people wanted to make Corianton the Chief Judge, they couldn't because he had gone on a ship journey to the land northward… if it was just a few hundred miles, surely an embassy could have been sent for such an important thing.

 

Also, Hagoth's first ship took a year to return.  These weren't just little jaunts a few hundred miles.

[Tiki]

Recorded on plates, yes, but there's so much specific information/history/doctrine, etc. there before they got to the promised land, I just can't imagine Nephi not writing down in some form what transpired to him and his family, to be made more permanent later.   Our prophets today commend us to write down important things so we don't forget them.   I wouldn't think the ancients did differently and just relied on their memories.  Mormon states that "there are many books and many records of every kind". Not everything they wrote was on plates.

 

For example, I've always assumed the scriptures and records had by the poor of the Ammoniha-ites, that were burned and destroyed with fire, were not of metal origin. 

Well, let's look at the text.

1 Nephi 1:1 - the 3rd phrase indicates his record is a history of what transpired to him, not what was currently happening to him. The vese is referring to the past anyway.

1 Nephi 1:17 - backs this up 1st makes a record of his father, then of himself; as does his writings: my father dwelt, my father did comfort my mother, my father died, my father discovered his genealogy: all past tense.

Thus his record was being made after arriving in the Land of Promise.

1 Nephi 19:1, the chapter after mentioning the arrival in the Land of Promise:

1 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the record of my people. And upon the plates which I made I did engraven the record of my father, and also our journeyings in the wilderness, and the prophecies of my father; and also many of mine own prophecies have I engraven upon them.

So, no, there's no indication that the record we have was being created while in the Old World.

Thus his use of "driven snow" to describe the fruit of the Tree of Life would be something familar to him and his descendants.

[Tiki]

Moroni Chapter 1:1 : Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.

This verse completely contradicts the Mesoamerica Theory which claims Moroni "escaped" the Lamanites in Central America then wandered/traveled "unmolested" for 3 decades eventually to Western New York State. He was among the Lamanites as he stated and "hid" from them for the safety of his life.

How so? When did he write it? And where was he when he wrote it?

If Moroni had supposed to have not written more, then he would not have returned to the alleged Mesoamerica Hill where that theory claims he hid them. So if the Lamanites were restricted to Mesoamerica, why was he wandering around there among them for 30 years hiding for the safety of his life?

Cold: Joseph Smith Sr. raised a family in the "cold." He also had neighbors. Why would this deter Nephites?

He raised a family in the cold?

How do we know this?

Because a lot of people recorded that it was cold. But the writers of the Book of Mormon never mentioned the cold. Washington mentioned it in Valley Forge. Civil War officers complained about it. Frozen earth is difficult to move and fortifications are difficult to build. I guarantee if there had been snow and ice in the Book of Mormon, someone would have mentioned it! Also, keep in mind

Thats not the point. The point is it was too cold for a Nephite nation or a portion of it to dwell in New York. But people have lived there who had the same resources, notably the Smithsthemselves. The Book of Mormon is no more a meterological "Farmers Almanac" as it is a geographical travel book. The only time it mentions weather is when it became extremely deadly such as droughts and whirlwinds.

Other branches of the House of Israel traveled into Northern Europe where it also is cold. Some are likely your ancestors from the Tribe of Ephraim.

Yes, well, I'm certain that if they did, they wrote about it. Also, in the kind of temperatures in the northern U.S., you simply could not sustain HUGE populations as stated in the Book of Mormon.

Snow: Nephi used the best description, apparently, that he knew of to describe the appearance of the fruit of The Tree of Life: "...and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow."

Non sequitur. Nephi was raised in Jerusalem, where they do get snow. A few years ago, I was on the phone with a woman in Jerusalem. I told her we had just gotten snow, and she said they had, too. "Do you get it often," I asked. "Only once or twice a year, but we get it." She also talked about how beautiful it was and how white it was...until soot from the cars and industry began to muck it up.

This vision / description was not only for readers of The Book of Mormon in the latter days, but for his descendants the Nephites, etc. so why would he have used an unknown metaphor to an alleged population confined in Mesoamerica as "driven snow"...to confuse his children?

I personally don't think he gave it a second thought. And just because Mesoamerica doesn't get snow doesn't mean that the people who lived there didn't know what it was. They had explorers, they were skilled cartographers and sailors. Why didn't anyone after Nephi mention it?

For Anijen: the nephites/mulekites inherited the land northward that had been occupied by the Jaredites.

You've forgotten the Jaredite nation was the greatest on the face of the earth during its time as promised to the Brother of Jared, and they had eventually occupied the northern regions leaving the southern regions unoccupied as a preserve for hunting. This does not fit a small 500 x 200 mile Mesoamerica model which has had ancient inhabitants throughout it. Ether 10:21. Helaman 6:10. This could also explain why ancient populations in North America appear to be small.

Yeah, but in that case the populations to the north would have to be substantially larger and show more development. But, actually, it all fits perfectly in Mesoamerica. In fact, it would be illogical in the great Northeast. I'd leave the northern lands as a wilderness preserve and occupy the southern lands if I were the Jaredites. BTW, the Olmecs were one of the greatest civilizations on Earth...certainly more advanced than the Adena civilization. However, given the dates of both in this land, perhaps the Olmecs and Adenas were offshoots of the same civilization.

Your remaining comments are speculations and excuses and dont take into account the ridiculousness of the Maya already having inhabited Mesoamerica before during and after Book of Mormon time periods, yet it being the land promised to Lehi and his descendants. Thats more damning to the Meso. theory than any excuse about limited population in North America because it completely contradicts the text which is built on the premise that Lehi left Jerusalem for a land promised to him. Your alleged great and massive population used to pinpoint Mesoamerica was a population not even related to Lehi, as they were there before him, so your excuses using population for North America can be used for even greater effect for Mesoamerica. Edited January 9, 2014 by Tiki

[Sevenbak]

Well, let's look at the text.

1 Nephi 1:1 - the 3rd phrase indicates his record is a history of what transpired to him, not what was currently happening to him. The vese is referring to the past anyway.

1 Nephi 1:17 - backs this up 1st makes a record of his father, then of himself; as does his writings: my father dwelt, my father did comfort my mother, my father died, my father discovered his genealogy: all past tense.

Thus his record was being made after arriving in the Land of Promise.

1 Nephi 19:1, the chapter after mentioning the arrival in the Land of Promise:

1 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the record of my people. And upon the plates which I made I did engraven the record of my father, and also our journeyings in the wilderness, and the prophecies of my father; and also many of mine own prophecies have I engraven upon them.

So, no, there's no indication that the record we have was being created while in the Old World.

Thus his use of "driven snow" to describe the fruit of the Tree of Life would be something familar to him and his descendants.

Ok, I agree hat he wrote the record on the plates after he arrived at the promised land, but considering it was about 11 years after leaving Jerusalem, do we really think he started from scratch and did it all from memory?  The Lord commands his people to write down important things, I just can't imaging he didn't keep a ongoing record on parchment or otherwise.

 

Also, considering the Lord originally brought Lehi in the land south and Mulek into the land north, I'm not so sure Nephi would been writing about snow in the new world right after he got here.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Sevenbak

[Tiki]

Ok, I agree hat he wrote the record on the plates after he arrived at the promised land, but considering it was about 11 years after leaving Jerusalem, do we really think he started from scratch and did it all from memory?  The Lord commands his people to write down important things, I just can't imaging he didn't keep a ongoing record on parchment or otherwise.

 

Also, considering the Lord originally brought Lehi in the land south and Mulek into the land north, I'm not so sure Nephi would been writing about snow in the new world right after he got here.

He was commanded to make a record, we know what it's purpose became, so see John 14:26 about the Holy Ghost bringing important things to one's remeberance.

Well, there isnt much snow that's "driven" in Israel and the Arabian Peninsula, that I'm aware. I think of driven snow as being blown around on a plain or in a valley exposed to the elements. But you have a good point. I think it's interesting he used it to describe the whiteness of the fruit, maybe the reflective quality of pure snow, brightness, whiteness.

[Sevenbak]

He was commanded to make a record, we know what it's purpose became, so see John 14:26 about the Holy Ghost bringing important things to one's remeberance.

Well, there isnt much snow that's "driven" in Israel and the Arabian Peninsula, that I'm aware. I think of driven snow as being blown around on a plain or in a valley exposed to the elements. But you have a good point. I think it's interesting he used it to describe the whiteness of the fruit, maybe the reflective quality of pure snow, brightness, whiteness.

I think the pattern of the Lord and the spirit is to help us after all we can do ourselves.  So yes, I think Nephi kept an ongoing record and didn't just ask the Lord 10 years later to help him remember it all as he committed it to metal plates.

[Calm]

Given all the effort into getting the brass plates, it would seem that Nephi and Lehi were aware of the importance of records and would likely therefore be keeping some as they went.

[Cold Steel]

Well, I have yet to see any compelling evidence to place the Book of Mormon lands outside of Mesoamerica. Meldrum points to the Adena and Hopewell cultures in the Heartlands, associating themselves with the Jaredites and the Nephites. The problem, however, remains population and weather. The Mesoamericanists point to the Olmecs and the Mayans as the cultures we should be studying.

 

It's not that people couldn't live in the frozen winterlands in the north, it's that they didn't. Whether Joseph Smith lived in that type of weather isn't the point. The point is, archeology simply doesn't show that there were hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people living in an organized, thriving community in the American northeast. Where are the roads, the infrastructure? They're in Mesoamerica. Where are the deadly serpents that kept people from traveling from the narrow neck for five years, including winters? Mesoamerica. Where can one provide a map that conforms to Book of Mormon geography? There may be competing Mesoamerican models, but Phyllis Olive and Rod Meldrum haven't produced any. If one does any kind of an Internet search, one will notice that most of the Mesoamerican-theory sites have maps. You can't find maps in Peru...I haven't even seen a site for one, though I know the Nephi Project has a Peru-based model.

 

The moundbuilders were likely a pretty tough people, but they weren't Nephites. They may even have some of the blood of Israel in them, but again, they're not Nephites. The Nephites complained about the heat of day during the first month of the year. (Alma 51) This would be consistent with the Mayan culture, our own calendar, and April for the Jewish calendar. The Heartlands advocates don't seek to discredit this by referring to the calendars of the Amerindians of the northeast, but instead offer this lame argument (by Meldrum):

 

“Heat” has several possible definitions.  While “heat” could certainly describe a hot day, the Book of Mormon once describes “heat” as that experienced by a guilty conscience (Alma 15:3) and several times the book describes a form of heat as “warm contention” (Alma 1:22, 50:26) or “dispute” (Alma 51:4).  Certainly the use of the word “warm” in this context does not provide a basis for climate.  Phrases such as “the heat of battle” do not reflect a type of climate, but an intensity of emotional experience, such has had just been experienced by Amalickiah’s men. Could this reference to heat have been a reflection of the intensity of the battle they had endured as they contended with their adversaries?  (Source)

 

 

This makes me want to groan.

 

Also registering high on the groan meter is his observation that the ancient Nephite city of Zarahemla was in Illinois, across the river from Nauvoo. He comes to this remarkable conclusion by citing D&C 125:3, which states:

 

Verily, thus saith the Lord, I say unto you, if those who call themselves by my name and are essaying to be my saints, if they will do my will and keep my commandments concerning them, let them gather themselves together unto the places which I shall appoint unto them by my servant Joseph, and build up cities unto my name, that they may be prepared for that which is in store for a time to come. Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it.  (D&C 125:3-4)

 

 

As the reader can see, the Lord never declares the area "opposite the city of Nauvoo" to be the ancient city of Zarahemla, but only that it should be called such. One also can see this command was based on the saints doing the Lord's will and doing his commandments. This type of argument would be akin to citing the Book of Mormon references to "Jerusalem" as being in the New World and claiming that Lehi and his family came from there, instead of the one in Judea. These faults in logic are not limited to these two examples, but are merely two among many. My final example is Meldrum's argument regarding snow:

 

Actually, “snow” and “hail” are mentioned three times in the text in conjunction with dreams and exhortations (1 Nephi 11:8, Mosiah 12:6, Helaman 5:12), but no mention is made that they experienced it occurring. Would it make sense for Lehi to use these metaphors if his posterity, which he witnessed in vision, would be living in a land where they are unlikely to be experienced? Of course it does snow and hail in the mountainous areas of Mesoamerica, but the proposed lands of the primary cities were the people lived are generally located in the lower tropical areas.

 

To think that because the "proposed lands" of the "primary" cities were in the low tropical areas where snow wasn't seen, the people would be completely oblivious to its existence is laughable. The Nephites were just as aware of their environments and the elements as anyone else. It would be like saying that a nomadic tribesman in the Arabian desert would be completely clueless as to what snow was. He may not have seen it, but it's likely they knew about it through interacting with others. But Meldrum's biggest blunder in his statement on snow and hail is that Nephi mentioned snow once, and growing up in Jerusalem he certainly would know about it. But the next two references cited by Meldrum were to hail, not snow. And in both cases it's cited in the context of severe storms. To those who have been around heavy storms and "whirlwinds" (tornadoes), hail is nothing unusual during them. Ice is formed in the upper atmosphere and falls as hail even in tropical environs, especially if the storms come from the sea. Now if the Nephites had to call off a battle because of an ice storm, I would readily concede the point to the Heartlanders.

 

I do feel for Meldrum because he so much wants his Heartlands model to be true, but one just doesn't get this kind of convoluted thinking from those who take a more scholarly, and competent, approach to Book of Mormon geography. I give him credit for trying to coordinate the calendars with the Nephites according to the Law of Moses, but even if this point is conceded, it moves the period to April. And while there are hot days in the Heartlands in April, it's not likely to shift the argument over to Meldrum's side. That the Nephites never complain about the cold, never talk about crossing frozen rivers, never mention frozen earth being difficult to move.

 

And then there's the dern snakes...and no maps.

 

.

[Tiki]

Dr. John L. Sorenson has declared the Maya were not the Nephites. So why study their culture as Nephites? I don't know either.

Martin Harris met with Dr. Mitchill, as we know who had taught at King's College, who had studied the Mounds and ruins in the U.S. And had come to a conclusion independent of and before Joseph Smith that an ancient civilization in North America had come to an end in Western New York.

One can read the article at M.I :

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1422&index=4&keyword=King\'s%20college

------------partial quote:

"Samuel L. Mitchill and the New York Theory

From his study of the burial mounds of the Ohio and Mississippi River valleys, his examination of mammoths and mummies found in Kentucky and Tennessee, and a series of long field studies he personally had conducted through western portions of the state of New York, he began to formulate his threefold interpretation of American Indian origins and history:

3. that the final battles of extermination were fought in upstate western New York not too far south of Lake Ontario "

------------

It's a good thing that Martin Harris went to Dr. Mitchill. Apparently, if he had visited BYU for a Professor's opinion, Martin Harris may not have mortgaged his farm to help the young prophet Joseph Smith publish the Book of Mormon.

P.S. The serpents were destroyed. Ether 10:19

And I came across a video of a "Nephite" pretending to be a Loch Ness "serpent." Notice the cold.

http://m.wimp.com/lochness/. Enjoy

[cdowis]

 

And then there's the dern snakes...and no maps.

 

.

 

And there are the written records (the codex), the calendar, the population numbers....  Yes, there were likely Nephites and Lamanites in North America, but they were in the "land northward" and not part of the BOM narrative.

[Anijen]

Dr. John L. Sorenson has declared the Maya were not the Nephites. So why study their culture as Nephites? I don't know either.

Because studying the culture of where we believe the Nephites were helps us to determine if the sight has any plausibility. I study the Hopewell and Adena Traditions and I find that Mesoamerica fits excellently and has a greater percentage of credibility than the Mississippi Valley people (by far).

 

 

 

 

Martin Harris met with Dr. Mitchill, as we know who had taught at King's College, who had studied the Mounds and ruins in the U.S. And had come to a conclusion independent of and before Joseph Smith that an ancient civilization in North America had come to an end in Western New York.

 

So. This does not give any more weight to the heartland theory at all. Many, many people including Thomas Jefferson believed the ancient civilizations were not descendants of the Indians. They attributed the Hopewell and Adena etc. as an ancient, very advanced, and civilized culture and many believed they were the lost tribes of Israel. This is one reason many fake artifacts were made to support their beliefs. Artifacts such as the Bat Creek Stone, Davenport Tablets and Los Lunas stone (as well as others). To give credence to that belief, including that these ancient Americans were something more than they really were. In fact one of the goals of the Lewis and Clark expedition was to validate some of these theories. Jefferson really didn't put too much weight in the theory, but he was motivated to find support for such a theory believing that such evidence would bring in tourists, money, and advance Americas reputation  similar to how the pyramids did for Egypt.

 

 

Those who cling to a heartland theory have an enormous problem in solving the population question.

[Freedom]

Dr. John L. Sorenson has declared the Maya were not the Nephites. So why study their culture as Nephites? I don't know either.

 

 

Can you define 'maya' in this context? Do you understand that there is a difference between the mayan civilization and the myan culture. Just as there is a difference between the english country (England) and the english language (Canada, U.S., Australia). 

[Cold Steel]

Anijen: I study the Hopewell and Adena Traditions and I find that Mesoamerica fits excellently and has a greater percentage of credibility than the Mississippi Valley people (by far).

 

 

The tactics used by the Heartlands advocates also are troublesome. First, if the Mississippi River can't be the right river because it flows south, they now point to an editorial change made last year. One paper published by FIRM states: "Church leadership recently changed (March 2013) the description of the River Sidon in the Book of Mormon Index to reflect what is scripturally demonstrable. It now states simply, "Sidon, River - most prominent river in Nephite territory" removing the speculative assumption that it "runs north to a sea" (see official Church website NEW definition of the River Sidon HERE)."

 

How do they know it was a "scriptural assumption"? Perhaps they removed it because they didn't think it was necessary. How did that "assumption" get in the Book of Mormon in the first place? They explain why they felt the Mesoamerican rivers were not "scripturally demonstrable":

 

 

The Book of Mormon indicates that the shipping of lumber was being accomplished using the river (see BoM Helaman 3:10), potentially indicating a navigable river (a river without natural barriers to boat travel such as falls, etc).

 

 

So we look up Helaman 3:10: "And it came to pass as timber was exceedingly scarce in the land northward, they did send forth much by the way of shipping."

 

Now I read every word of that verse and it nowhere mentions the Sidon River! If this was in Mesoamerica, shipping could have been done by sea. We know there were many cultures in all the land, north and south. To think they had no communication with each other is ridiculous. And the Chinese had ships capable of shipping lumber, and so did other cultures, perhaps even the Mayans. I've been along much of the Mississippi and there's plenty of lumber all along its shores. Why would they need to ship it along that river?

 

In verse 9, we read, "And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement." So where are these houses of cement in the Heartlands? And the smooth roads, which BTW criss-cross Mesoamerica? This is the same type of logic the Jehovah's Witnesses use, where they publish exclamatory statements, then hope you won't look up the references or dig too deeply.

 

Does anyone know why the church changed that part in the Book of Mormon about the river flowing north? And why did it do it in 2013? Was it because of political pressure or was it simply not found in the original plates?

 

In other words, the Heartland's advocates don't seem to think straight, and they always seem to be twisting things. Again, one should not choose a model and protect it. One should choose a model and do everything they can to disprove it. And one of my primary questions about the Mesoamerican model is why is only one river named? There are two large rivers that flow from south to north. What was the other river's name?

 

 

 

[Calm]

Does anyone know why the church changed that part in the Book of Mormon about the river flowing north? And why did it do it in 2013? Was it because of political pressure or was it simply not found in the original plates?

I highly doubt that it was political pressure. They've been going through the manuals removing all the speculation and repetition so I assume they would do it for the scripture index as well.

There are different levels of speculation though. The text may say 1+3 and not mention it is discussing four. One can say that stating it is discussing four is speculation, but it has a very strong basis for such. There are reasons why the flowing north was included, scriptural references...unless they deal with those and demonstrate why it shouldn't be assumed to mean what it has in the past, I think they have a problem...especially since prior to the removal iirc they were arguing that part of the Mississippi flowed north so it qualified.

Edited January 13, 2014 by calmoriah

[Sevenbak]

They didn't change the verses that describe the river flowing north.  They still say the same thing.

 

The index is not part of the scriptural text.

[cdowis]

They didn't change the verses that describe the river flowing north.  They still say the same thing.

 

The index is not part of the scriptural text.

 

The 2013 changes in the scriptures are in the headings, index, etc and tend to be very conservative -- removing anything speculative and not clearly stated in the text itself.

[Sevenbak]

Right, it removed interpretations of said text, and lets said text still describe a N. flowing river on its own with no interjection.

[cdowis]

Yep, the church really got slammed on a header in the BOM about "coins."

[Rivers]

The Mesoamerica model makes the most sense to me because that is where we have all the evidence of complex civilation.  But all Book of Mormon theories still have a bunch of anachronisms to deal with.

[cdowis]

The Mesoamerica model makes the most sense to me because that is where we have all the evidence of complex civilation.  But all Book of Mormon theories still have a bunch of anachronisms to deal with.

 

Please share with us some of those anachronisms.  Don't waste our time with "not found, not exist" stuff like horses.  Archeology in mesoamerica is where we can make absolute assertions.

 

Let's see what you got.

Edited January 13, 2014 by cdowis