Cumorah ... Has Time Changed Your Mind?

[Cold Steel]

Moroni Chapter 1:1 : Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.

This verse completely contradicts the Mesoamerica Theory which claims Moroni "escaped" the Lamanites in Central America then wandered/traveled "unmolested" for 3 decades eventually to Western New York State. He was among the Lamanites as he stated and "hid" from them for the safety of his life.

 

How so? When did he write it? And where was he when he wrote it?

Cold: Joseph Smith Sr. raised a family in the "cold." He also had neighbors. Why would this deter Nephites?

 

He raised a family in the cold?

 

How do we know this?

 

Because a lot of people recorded that it was cold. But the writers of the Book of Mormon never mentioned the cold. Washington mentioned it in Valley Forge. Civil War officers complained about it. Frozen earth is difficult to move and fortifications are difficult to build. I guarantee if there had been snow and ice in the Book of Mormon, someone would have mentioned it! Also, keep in mind 

Other branches of the House of Israel traveled into Northern Europe where it also is cold. Some are likely your ancestors from the Tribe of Ephraim.

 

Yes, well, I'm certain that if they did, they wrote about it. Also, in the kind of temperatures in the northern U.S., you simply could not sustain HUGE populations as stated in the Book of Mormon.

Snow: Nephi used the best description, apparently, that he knew of to describe the appearance of the fruit of The Tree of Life: "...and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow."

 

Non sequitur. Nephi was raised in Jerusalem, where they do get snow. A few years ago, I was on the phone with a woman in Jerusalem. I told her we had just gotten snow, and she said they had, too. "Do you get it often," I asked. "Only once or twice a year, but we get it." She also talked about how beautiful it was and how white it was...until soot from the cars and industry began to muck it up.

This vision / description was not only for readers of The Book of Mormon in the latter days, but for his descendants the Nephites, etc. so why would he have used an unknown metaphor to an alleged population confined in Mesoamerica as "driven snow"...to confuse his children?

 

I personally don't think he gave it a second thought. And just because Mesoamerica doesn't get snow doesn't mean that the people who lived there didn't know what it was. They had explorers, they were skilled cartographers and sailors. Why didn't anyone after Nephi mention it?

For Anijen: the nephites/mulekites inherited the land northward that had been occupied by the Jaredites.

You've forgotten the Jaredite nation was the greatest on the face of the earth during its time as promised to the Brother of Jared, and they had eventually occupied the northern regions leaving the southern regions unoccupied as a preserve for hunting. This does not fit a small 500 x 200 mile Mesoamerica model which has had ancient inhabitants throughout it. Ether 10:21. Helaman 6:10. This could also explain why ancient populations in North America appear to be small.

 

Yeah, but in that case the populations to the north would have to be substantially larger and show more development. But, actually, it all fits perfectly in Mesoamerica. In fact, it would be illogical in the great Northeast. I'd leave the northern lands as a wilderness preserve and occupy the southern lands if I were the Jaredites.  BTW, the Olmecs were one of the greatest civilizations on Earth...certainly more advanced than the Adena civilization. However, given the dates of both in this land, perhaps the Olmecs and Adenas were offshoots of the same civilization.

 

[Sevenbak]

I've also read it used against General Marshall and the Office of The First Presidency for a letter in 1990.

So what's the point of using it?

ding ding ding.

My favorite version of this method is often aimed at the first history of the Church, written by Oliver Cowdery in the form of letters, where he describes the last battle at Cumorah in NY.

Oliver even publishes this endorsement at the very beginning. "That our narrative may be correct, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother J [oseph]. SMITH jr. has offered to assist us."

 

It's not enough for some that think it was just Oliver guessing...

[DragonLancer]

 

http://www.bmaf.org/articles/witness_of_cumorah__goble

 

Here is my article on Cumorah published on the BMAF site. I also believe in a semi-hemispheric model with Zarahemla in Mesoamerica, but with Cumorah in New York.

 

You might want to check out that link as it returned a no-go for me.

 

Here is my blog post on this:  http://mormonskepticism.blogspot.com/2013/12/my-article-witness-of-cumorah-published.html

 

I believe that the problem with Cumorah in New York is not the site, but the quality of arguments that have been made in its behalf. Its time for New York Cumorah theorists to change their tactics and make arguments along the same lines that the Mesoamericanists have made for their models. The "Cumorah is Cumorah because the prophets said so in the past" argument doesn't fly anymore.

 

The quality of the arguments tend to be choosing a good candidate for the Hill Cumorah and then defending it. I'm convinced a better methodology would be to choose a good candidate, then do everything you can to disprove it. Don't get emotionally attached to any given candidate. My problems with the New York drumlin are simple: Draw me a map and show how it fits. The Mesoamericanists crank out maps all the time. They're not perfect, but I'm beginning to think Mesoamerica is where we'll find Cumorah. One site (NephiCode.com) goes so far as to announce: "Lehi Never Saw Mesoamerica." But it puts the Book of Mormon lands in South America.

 

Most people are attached to the New York Cumorah for reasons of testimony or emotion-based reasoning.

The New York Cumorah can be separated out from that.

I can draw you a map.  No problem.  I can draw you an internal map that includes an exceedingly great distance between the neck of land and a group of large bodies of water to the North, and right by one of them named Ripliancum, is Cumorah, a days distance to the south. that map is all based on internal evidences.  Mesoamericanists will say that there is no exceedingly great distance, but it is only so in their minds because they interpret that away.  But it is there in the text, and there is no reason it cannot be interpreted that way in a straight forward manner.  That internal map is based on the text as much as any Mesoamericanist Cumorah theory map.  Its just that one's CONCLUSIONS about one's INTERPRETATIONS of what the statements in the text means drives one's creation of one's map.  Just drawing a map doesn't change the fact that we are all guilty of confirmation bias.  And if you tell me that your conclusion about the text is solid on that point, I'll just tell you, no its not, mine is.  And we go around the merry go round in circles.  My point is not to prove anything to Mesoamericanists.  My point is to establish a rationalist framework for my beliefs rather than relying upon questionable evidences.  My point is not to convince you or to convince those that think like you.  I cannot do that, not because my argumentation cannot be as good as yours or anyone elses.  You are likely to be set in your way of thought as much as I am mine.  The important thing is, I can reduce an argument for the New York Cumorah to the same kinds of argumentation that a Mesoamericanist can.  A rationalist framework for Cumorah in New York is an important step forward for those that believe in it, because it separates it out from everything we have been criticized for in the past.  In other words, if I can convince you or people like you, at least I can make my argument methodical and methodologically sound.  And that is a huge step forward for the quality of argumentation that has come out of my camp.

[Anijen]

For Anijen: the nephites/mulekites inherited the land northward that had been occupied by the Jaredites.

You've forgotten the Jaredite nation was the greatest on the face of the earth during its time as promised to the Brother of Jared, and they had eventually occupied the northern regions leaving the southern regions unoccupied as a preserve for hunting. This does not fit a small 500 x 200 mile Mesoamerica model which has had ancient inhabitants throughout it. Ether 10:21. Helaman 6:10. This could also explain why ancient populations in North America appear to be small.

Regards

Emphasis mine.

Tiki you assume I have forgotten, I think I am the only person who is qualified to know what I have and have not forgotten, thank you for assuming what I have done  or not done, know or not know.

 

Other points;

Hunting lands can be occupied and just FYI you are using presentism by assuming a 500x200 mile area (100,000 square miles) is small and hence does not qualify is a bit amazing considering Manhatten has over 1.5 million people in a 26 square mile area. Nebraska and South Dakota have a lot of hunting grounds in the state (almost the entire state can be used for hunting) and yes the entire state is occupied (mostly farms), South Dakota even more so and just for some bonus points I will throw out some more useless trivia; South Dakota is the only state in the Union that it is legal to kill the state bird (Red Necked Pheasant). In my opinion  one-hundred-thousand square miles is not such a small area. Besides last I checked (and it is daily) the Book of Moormon does not give any measurements in miles, kilometers etc so a 500X200 mile area is based on scholars best guesses not from the text of the book. Having said that your opinions of what fits and what does not fit is still just your opinion, and if I might add not one that is shared by the experts.

 

"why ancient populations appear to be small." Appear? There is no argument about it, they were small. There is not one site in all of the United States that had a population over 30,000 during the Book of Mormon. Cahokia reached 50,000 at its peak around 1150 AD. The only place in the Continent of North America that had a large population at the time of the Book of Mormon was, you guessed it, Mesoamerica.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Anijen

[Anijen]

"Exceedingly great distance" can be interpreted as from the Yucatan to upstate New York. I wont argue with that.

 

I will argue that  200 miles or 500 miles can also be an exceedingly great distance, especially if walked or marched, or carried etc. 

It is my opinion, too much is made out of the words "exceedingly great." What we should take away from this is to those who wrote it, the subject to them was "exceedingly great." It is not an odometer nor is it a reason to disregard a LGT.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Anijen

[Bob Crockett]

Most people are attached to the New York Cumorah for reasons of testimony or emotion-based reasoning.

Nope. It is based upon statements of the First Presidency. I don't get emotional about it.

I don't care whether the Hill Cumorah is in New York or MesoAmerica.

I do care to point out that the Brethren and the First Presidency, all to a man when they have spoken in General Conference, have said it is in New York, and there are no statements like that in General Conference in support of MesoAmerica. I thus do care to point out that all this emphasis on MesoAmerica is just angels dancing on the head of a pin.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Rob Osborn]

"Exceedingly great distance" can be interpreted as from the Yucatan to upstate New York. I wont argue with that.

 

I will argue that  200 miles or 500 miles can also be an exceedingly great distance, especially if walked or marched, or carried etc. 

It is my opinion, too much is made out of the words "exceedingly great." What we should take away from this is to those who wrote it, the subject to them was "exceedingly great." It is not an odometer nor is it a reason to disregard a LGT.

The problem is that "exceedingly great" has been made to fit a distance of just over twice as wide as the proposed "narrow neck". So I would be confident in saying that the distance of 3-7 days travel is hardly "exceedingly great".

[teddyaware]

My memory says that at least some of the proponents of the One Cumorah claim the climate was milder then. Can't remember their evidence though.

I am a two Cumorah supporter because I think Moroni would have been an idiot to have stayed in the same place considering the Lamanites were out for his blood. He might have snuck back in, but then there is the geology...just don't buy the idea that the hill in New York is notable enough to be picked out of all the hills in the area they would have lived in to be their last stand. Might as well just sit at home in comfort to wait to be massacred.

Considering the Lamanites chased the Nephites farther and farter away from their homeland, till the final battle at Cumorah, it's likely that after that battle, and its aftermath, the Lamanites returned to their own homelands leaving Moroni to himself. While my mind is open to all possibilities, it seems it would be quite a feat (unless God miraculously transported him) for Moroni to carry the very heavy gold plates, the sword of Laban, the breastplate, and the Urim and Thummim many hundreds of miles, over rough and wild terrain and difficult to cross bodies of water, till reaching the very remote location in  today's New York. And remember, North America was filled with a great many aboriginal Americans at that time -- another problem unto itself. But like I said, my mind is open to all possibilities.

Edited January 9, 2014 by teddyaware

[Rob Osborn]

Nope. It is based upon statements of the First Presidency. I don't get emotional about it.

I don't care whether the Hill Cumorah is in New York or MesoAmerica.

I do care to point out that the Brethren and the First Presidency, all to a man when they have spoken in General Conference, have said it is in New York, and there are no statements like that in General Conference in support of MesoAmerica. I thus do care to point out that all this emphasis on MesoAmerica is just angels dancing on the head of a pin.

I have always liked the idea that the church owns the very ground (New York Hill Cumorah) where all the plates Mormon were hid up unto the Lord before the great destruction at Cumorah.

[cdowis]

I do care to point out that the Brethren and the First Presidency, all to a man when they have spoken in General Conference, have said it is in New York, and there are no statements like that in General Conference in support of MesoAmerica. I thus do care to point out that all this emphasis on MesoAmerica is just angels dancing on the head of a pin.

 

Yes, as I have pointed out many times, there is a place in NY called the Hilll Cumorah.  There are also cities called Rome and Athens in the state of Georgia.

[rameumptom]

Moroni Chapter 1:1

Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.

This verse completely contradicts the Mesoamerica Theory which claims Moroni "escaped" the Lamanites in Central America then wandered/traveled "unmolested" for 3 decades eventually to Western New York State. He was among the Lamanites as he stated and "hid" from them for the safety of his life.

Cold:

Joseph Smith Sr. raised a family in the "cold." He also had neighbors. Why would this deter Nephites?

Other branches of the House of Israel traveled into Northern Europe where it also is cold. Some are likely your ancestors from the Tribe of Ephraim.

Snow:

Nephi used the best description, apparently, that he knew of to describe the appearance of the fruit of The Tree of Life:

"...and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow."

Driven snow.

This vision / description was not only for readers of The Book of Mormon in the latter days, but for his descendants the Nephites, etc. so why would he have used an unknown metaphor to an alleged population confined in Mesoamerica as "driven snow" ? To confuse his children?

For Anijen: the nephites/mulekites inherited the land northward that had been occupied by the Jaredites.

You've forgotten the Jaredite nation was the greatest on the face of the earth during its time as promised to the Brother of Jared, and they had eventually occupied the northern regions leaving the southern regions unoccupied as a preserve for hunting. This does not fit a small 500 x 200 mile Mesoamerica model which has had ancient inhabitants throughout it. Ether 10:21. Helaman 6:10. This could also explain why ancient populations in North America appear to be small.

Regards

 

On Moroni 1:1, Moroni actually bade farewell on at least 3 occasions.  It is possible he took some records with him, including the writings of the Jaredites (which only were 24 plates).  So this easily becomes a non-issue, as we're not saying that he took wagon loads of records along with him on the journey.

 

That Joseph Smith, living in a time of technologies the Nephites and Jaredites would not have (fireplaces, iron plows, rifles, etc) could more easily survive the winters in New York.  Remember that when the ship Mayflower arrived in Boston (further south), half of the 102 passengers died the very first winter.  I think such harsh conditions would have been noted somewhere in the Book of Mormon, as somewhere along the 1000 years of Nephite existence, there would have been a mini-Ice Age, which would have caused disease and death by the thousands or millions.

 

Nephi's description of snow comes from his knowledge of snow in Jerusalem (it does occasionally snow there). Nowhere else is it used in the BoM in some context of weather.  Nephi used a metaphor, because that is what he knew, and described it best.  There are things found in the Bible that we do not know today, simply because the individual assumed we would know them in our own day.

 

The US and Canada were simply not populated enough to have battles that included tens of thousands of warriors, and where millions died.  Not only that, but the time periods for the Mound builders and others simply do not fit.  For most of them, their heyday was centuries after the Nephites' demise.

 

Do I think that some Nephites migrated north (Hagoth, etc)? It is very possible they did, and then integrated into the native tribes of the areas.

 

And the Book of Mormon actually gives us time frames for travel.  12 days to travel from the land of Nephi to Zarahemla WITH families and flocks!  Clearly this is not a hemispheric or semi-hemispheric model for the Nephites.  What size territory the Jaredites occupied is open to interpretation.  It is possible that some settled further north, but the numbers required for millions to die requires them to have been in Mesoamerica.

[DragonLancer]

"Exceedingly great distance" can be interpreted as from the Yucatan to upstate New York. I wont argue with that.

 

I will argue that  200 miles or 500 miles can also be an exceedingly great distance, especially if walked or marched, or carried etc. 

It is my opinion, too much is made out of the words "exceedingly great." What we should take away from this is to those who wrote it, the subject to them was "exceedingly great." It is not an odometer nor is it a reason to disregard a LGT.

 

Hello my friend.

 

Yes.  That is why, since it is a matter of personal interpretation of scripture on this point, one's argumentation ought to be methodical at the very least, since the two camps can't agree on their respective personal interpretations of scripture.  At the very least, my reading of the text is rational (in my mind), even though you, my good Mesoamericanist friend, disagree.  Of course you and I have been over this thing countless times, and you have read my book.  Thank you for reading my book.

[mfbukowski]

I know that, if nothing else, the climate alone would prove that the Book of Mormon lands were not in New York, as much as I’d like to imagine Nephites walking around my back yard centuries earlier! George Washington mentioned the weather at Valley Forge once or twice in his writings, and our soldiers who fought in the Battle of the Bulge also mentioned it was a bit chilly at the times; yet in a book the size of the Book of Mormon, there are no accounts of snow, ice, crossing frozen rivers, perishing because of exposure or wearing heavy leather (which, BTW, doesn’t work all that well back here—even when it isn’t 10º with 28mph wind gusts!)

I was born and raised in Western NY and I know what you are talking about!!

 

But you have raised a fascinating point that goes beyond the present discussion- and indeed for me shows evidence that the BOM was not "written" by Joseph as a 19th century work- "inspired" and "scriptural" or not.

 

Let me just put it this way.

 

If I was going to make up a story about people who had lived around where I had lived, hundreds or thousands of years earlier, and if I included in that story plates that I found in my own backyard, virtually, AND if I lived in "cold country", WOULDN'T YOU INCLUDE STORIES ABOUT HUNTING IN WINTER AND THE KINDS OF HOUSES ETC??

 

Why is that totally absent in the BOM while at the same time, the alleged fraudulent fabricator of the hoax said that the events happened in the region where he lived??

 

That's like a Hawaiian writing a fraudulent story about local history while including accounts of snow and ice coming down on the volcano next door.

 

It just does NOT make sense!  Now that you mention it, I think that is strong internal evidence that indeed the BOM was written by someone else, in a different place, in a different time.  If it was fabricated by Joseph, surely it would include stories about the weather patterns of where the plates were found- if indeed the plates were in the area where the action took place.

 

I think on this alone, one has to go with a 2 Cumorah hypothesis, and that indeed it was a "translation" of some sort, and not a fabrication.

Edited January 8, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Anijen]

I have always liked the idea that the church owns the very ground (New York Hill Cumorah) where all the plates Mormon were hid up unto the Lord before the great destruction at Cumorah.

Emphasis mine. Mormon 6:6 except for the plates he gave Moroni.

 

The Book of Mormon does not say it was in New York. I do agree that it was in New York where Moroni buried the portion his father gave him, and it was New York where Joseph retrieved them, but you know I disagree that New York is where the prophet Mormon buried all the plates.

[rameumptom]

Considering the Lamanites chased the Nephites farther and farter away from their homeland, till the final battle at Cumorah, it's likely that after that battle, and its aftermath, the Lamanites returned to their own homelands leaving Moroni to himself. While my mind is open to all possibilities, it seems it would be quite a feat (unless God miraculously transported him) for Moroni to carry the very heavy gold plates, the sword of Laban, the breastplate, and the Urim and Thummim many hundreds of miles, over rough and wild terrain and difficult to cross bodies of water, till reaching the very remote location. And remember, North America was filled with a great many aboriginal Americans -- another problem unto itself. But like I said, my mind is open to all possibilities.

 

So, it was equally impossible for the Brother of Jared and Nephi to build ships and travel across oceans to the Americas?  It is possible Moroni had others with him, helping him to carry the items he had. After all, it would be silly to think that he remained 100% alone over a 30-40 year period.

 

From what Brigham Young noted, Moroni dedicated the Manti temple site.  So, it was okay for him to carry those heavy items from New York State Cumorah to Utah and then back again?  He would have to cross the Rocky Mountains twice, the Mississippi River twice, etc.

 

Why not that he just traveled from Mesoamerica, stopping in Manti along the way to dedicate a temple site, and then continue on to New York?

[DragonLancer]

Nope. It is based upon statements of the First Presidency. I don't get emotional about it.

I don't care whether the Hill Cumorah is in New York or MesoAmerica.

I do care to point out that the Brethren and the First Presidency, all to a man when they have spoken in General Conference, have said it is in New York, and there are no statements like that in General Conference in support of MesoAmerica. I thus do care to point out that all this emphasis on MesoAmerica is just angels dancing on the head of a pin.

 

Bob, you and I have been over this in years past too, and you are a literalist for statements of prophets.  It is very black and white to you on that point.  I disagree.  Nothing more to say on that point.

[DragonLancer]

I was born and raised in Western NY and I know what you are talking about!!

 

But you have raised a fascinating point that goes beyond the present discussion- and indeed for me shows evidence that the BOM was not "written" by Joseph as a 19th century work- "inspired" and "scriptural" or not.

 

Let me just put it this way.

 

If I was going to make up a story about people who had lived around where I had lived, hundreds or thousands of years earlier, and if I included in that story plates that I found in my own backyard, virtually, AND if I lived in "cold country", WOULDN'T YOU INCLUDE STORIES ABOUT HUNTING IN WINTER AND THE KINDS OF HOUSES ETC??

 

Why is that totally absent in the BOM while at the same time, the alleged fraudulent fabricator of the hoax said that the events happened in the region where he lived??

 

That's like a Hawaiian writing a fraudulent story about local history while including accounts of snow and ice coming down on the volcano next door.

 

It just does NOT make sense!  Now that you mention it, I think that is strong internal evidence that indeed the BOM was written by someone else, in a different place, in a different time.  If it was fabricated by Joseph, surely it would include stories about the weather patterns of where the plates were found- if indeed the plates were in the area where the action took place.

 

I think on this alone, one has to go with a 2 Cumorah hypothesis, and that indeed it was a "translation" of some sort, and not a fabrication.

 

 

Emphasis mine. Mormon 6:6 except for the plates he gave Moroni.

 

The Book of Mormon does not say it was in New York. I do agree that it was in New York where Moroni buried the portion his father gave him, and it was New York where Joseph retrieved them, but you know I disagree that New York is where the prophet Mormon buried all the plates.

 

 

And no doubt you read that part of my book too where I commented on the Mesoamericanist usage of Mormon 6:6 about the fact that you guys use it to try to say that it says something that it doesn't.  The verse has ambiguity.  The mere mention that Mormon handed his son the plates decades before they were buried has no implication on where they ended up.

 

In other words, Moroni didn't bury the plates until decades later, and so, the bold assumption of a wandering in a straight path from Mesoamerica to NY after the last battle doesn't fly when there is no geographical data in the text about the wanderings.  An assumption about Moroni RETURNING decades later to bury the plates in the same hill is as valid as any assumption.

[Anijen]

Hello my friend.

 

Yes.  That is why, since it is a matter of personal interpretation of scripture on this point, one's argumentation ought to be methodical at the very least, since the two camps can't agree on their respective personal interpretations of scripture.  At the very least, my reading of the text is rational (in my mind), even though you, my good Mesoamericanist friend, disagree.  Of course you and I have been over this thing countless times, and you have read my book.  Thank you for reading my book.

Excellent point. This is sometimes in my opinion where many of us let our emotions carry more weight than good old fashioned study and pondering... I am probably the biggest culprit of this. As I grow older I find myself to have grown a little more patient and because of that a little more tolerant, both together I feel makes me a little more wiser than I have been in the past. I have always found you rational, yet as you have pointed out I have still disagreed in some areas as you have with me, yet we have not let our differences cause animosity to the point of a lasting contention. That is the very last thing I want is contention with anyone. I truly am trying to follow the advice and pattern as in Moroni 7:48 (my favorite scripture btw). I have disagreed with Rob Osborne, Bob Crockett, and Sevenbac as well but I find their opinions like I do yours, valuable and intelligently given and have been at times almost persuaded. I look forward to more of your work in the future.

[mfbukowski]

oops

Edited January 8, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Never mind.

 

I need a little more Moroni 7:48 in my life- thanks Anijen.

[mfbukowski]

Respectfully I would like to point out that historical evidence cannot prove or disprove religion.

 

That will be about all I have to say on the subject, I think.

[rameumptom]

Prophets often speak from the best understanding they have. If we are going to fully believe Joseph Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith, then we'd better be ready to believe in a hemispheric model (which simply does not work).

 

Joseph and others since have made their best guesses, just as they have on other issues.  On most occasions they are 100% correct, but on some issues they have been wrong (eternal polygamy as the standard, curse of Cain, etc).  It is possible that this is another area where they made their best guess based on what they knew in their day.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

"Exceedingly great distance" can be interpreted as from the Yucatan to upstate New York. I wont argue with that.

 

I will argue that  200 miles or 500 miles can also be an exceedingly great distance, especially if walked or marched, or carried etc. 

It is my opinion, too much is made out of the words "exceedingly great." What we should take away from this is to those who wrote it, the subject to them was "exceedingly great." It is not an odometer nor is it a reason to disregard a LGT.

I will up you. 100 miles was an exceedingly great distance back in the day. You could not even walk that in a day.

[Cold Steel]

For me, the hostile weather (if indeed the climate was the same 2000 years ago), actually supports the statements made by presidents and prophets, for me at least.  The Nephites stayed in roughly the same vicinity for nearly 600 years before being compelled by something to leave their homeland in mass droves northward.  That something, stuck out to me today as I was reading in Alma 62.  

 

As Mormon said starting in verse 39, right before the migrations started, "they had had wars, and bloodsheds, and famine, and affliction, for the space of many years.  And there had been murders, and contentions, and dissensions, and all manner of iniquity… because of the exceedingly great length of the war between the Nephites and the Lamanites many had become hardened, because of the exceedingly great length of the war;"

 

Hmmm...sounds like New York today, but not anciently.

 

I've said it before, and I still hold to it, I'm with Orson Pratt on this one… "The extracts from the Book of Mormon, ...show that the people of " NEPHEL" or " NEPHITES" dwelt in the country of the mounds, from fifty years before Christ, till three hundred and eighty-four years after Christ."

 

When I visited Mexico a number of years ago, I remember the highways we traveled were  just straight through the jungle. Our guide pointed out literally hundreds of mounds on either side of the road, all covered with green grass and other vegetation. These were Mayan ruins that to this day have remained unexcavated. Having said that, I'm sure the Nephites and Lamanites launched expeditionary teams into the north and south. It's just part of the nature of man to explore; after all, who wants to be surprised when an army shows up out of nowhere and they want what you have? So yes, I'm certain that the Mesoamerican cultures probably knew of the existence of the peoples to both the north and the south. The Nephites could have even had settlements throughout the Rocky Mountains.

 

But I don't think the Moundbuilders were the Nephites of the Book of Mormon. Nor do I believe the appearance of Christ took place there, though he may have visited peoples other than the Mesoamericans--maybe even the mound-builders and peoples located in Asia.   

[Sevenbak]

No one is saying Cumorah in New york was that way anciently.  The Alma reference happened long before they fled to the land of Cumorah.

 

It's my understanding that the Alma 62 reference is talking about the region of Zarahemla, before the people fled northward.  Sorry, I thought that was clear.  Hagoth, and other ground expeditions didn't happen until after this, the wars, bloodshed, famine, affliction, etc, was motivation for them to leave and get as far away as possible from their homeland and its problems, thus "exceedingly great distance."

 

 

Some other thoughts...

 

While it is possible that Christ visited the Nephites in N. America, I don't think so, and here's why.  

 

1. Nephi (Helaman's son) returned from the land northward because the people were too wicked and wouldn't except him.

 

2. The land northward was changed and destroyed more than any other land the Nephites referred to, because of the great wickedness of its inhabitants.

 

3. Large cities aren't mentioned in the text in the land northward, mostly towns and villages.  It would have been scattered populations.  Mormon mentions it when he was carried by his father at age 11, and went to the land southward and Zarahemla and describes the masses of buildings and peoples.  From this context, I am led to understand he was from a more scattered and undeveloped society in the North country.

 

4.  Also, Mormon mentions smaller towns and villages in the context as he is fleeing northward with his armies and gathering his people for 4 years to Cumorah.   Yes, I think that stands on its own as an exceedingly great distance.