Cumorah ... Has Time Changed Your Mind?

[Cold Steel]

In 2006, I began paying attention to the “Second Cumorah” debate. In what must be one of the longest running threads I tried to keep up with, a number of questions arose regarding whether there was a second Cumorah (or first, if you want to be technical), and whether Moroni traveled for more than three decades, only to end up where the war began? And one even raised this issue of whether an apostle’s opinion (Joseph Fielding Smith) was germane to the issue, even if he offered it before he became the president of the church.

 

Since that time, I’ve devoted a great deal of time reading the opinions of our finest scholars as well as those of Rod Meldrum, Wayne May, Phyllis Olive and others. As for myself, I believe Dr. John Clark put it best when he said, “the archaeology of ew York is persuasive evidence that Book of Mormon peoples did not live in that region. By implication, the Cumorah of the golden plates is not the Cumorah of the final battles.”

 

Another thing that’s on my mind as I type this is the furious, howling wind and sub-zero wind chills we’re presently having here in the East Coast of the U.S. I’ve told many people that if I came here on a ship and landed in upstate New York in 600 B.C., and if I survived one winter, that in 599 B.C. I would be in Mesoamerica! I’d put that ship in the water, recalibrate my Liahona and sail south until I could put ashore at Cancun!
 

I know that, if nothing else, the climate alone would prove that the Book of Mormon lands were not in New York, as much as I’d like to imagine Nephites walking around my back yard centuries earlier! George Washington mentioned the weather at Valley Forge once or twice in his writings, and our soldiers who fought in the Battle of the Bulge also mentioned it was a bit chilly at the times; yet in a book the size of the Book of Mormon, there are no accounts of snow, ice, crossing frozen rivers, perishing because of exposure or wearing heavy leather (which, BTW, doesn’t work all that well back here—even when it isn’t 10º with 28mph wind gusts!)
 

No, if the Lord was going to take Lehi and his family out of the Arabian furnace, and put them in what’s now the northeastern U.S. for a New York winter, well, believe what you want. Just try reading the Book of Mormon and imagining it being in the New York area. It doesn’t wash. But we’re all entitled to our opinions. And how about those poisonous serpents that kept man or beast from traversing the narrow neck into the south for several years (five, I think)? Pretty hardy breed of snake, isn't it?
 

So please take part in the poll and, if you can answer the weather problems, the geography problems, the population problems and the fact that the New York drumlin would hardly be worth composing an epistle to the Lamanite king asking him to meet there in a few years for a whoppin’ big battle between his men and mine, I’ll be happy to consider them. There is one thing in the favor of the New York hill. Defecting Nephites would be heading south!

 

What's  Right  With the Heartland Model

 

What's  Wrong  With the Heartland Model

 

 

.

 

Edited January 8, 2014 by Cold Steel

[Bob Crockett]

I don't think the "two Cumorah" issue is necessarily related to the Heartland model or Mesoamerican model.  To say that the final battles and plate burial occurred in upper New York is not to concede that the Great Lakes model is preferable to the Mesoamerican model.  

 

Other than hailstones and crashing seas, is weather discussed in the Bible?

Edited January 7, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Calm]

My memory says that at least some of the proponents of the One Cumorah claim the climate was milder then. Can't remember their evidence though.

I am a two Cumorah supporter because I think Moroni would have been an idiot to have stayed in the same place considering the Lamanites were out for his blood. He might have snuck back in, but then there is the geology...just don't buy the idea that the hill in New York is notable enough to be picked out of all the hills in the area they would have lived in to be their last stand. Might as well just sit at home in comfort to wait to be massacred.

[poulsenll]

Cold steel

 

You left out the one I have come to believe is most likely. It is in an area just north of Misantla, Veracruz. This area meets all of the criteria (as little as it is) described in the Book of Mormon.

 

Check it out for yourself. 20 deg N 96 deg W

 

Attached is a brief report of this possibility.

 

 

 

Geography_Ether21.pdf

[Rob Osborn]

Why is the Heartland model always grouped with people believing in the New York Cumorah location? I believe in a semi-hemispheric model where events in the BoM took place mostly in South America & Central America.

[DragonLancer]

http://www.bmaf.org/articles/witness_of_cumorah__goble

 

Here is my article on Cumorah published on the BMAF site.  I also believe in a semi-hemispheric model with Zarahemla in Mesoamerica, but with Cumorah in New York.

Here is my blog post on this:  http://mormonskepticism.blogspot.com/2013/12/my-article-witness-of-cumorah-published.html

 

I believe that the problem with Cumorah in New York is not the site, but the quality of arguments that have been made in its behalf.  Its time for New York Cumorah theorists to change their tactics and make arguments along the same lines that the Mesoamericanists have made for their models.  The "Cumorah is Cumorah because the prophets said so in the past" argument doesn't fly anymore.

 

Ed Goble

[Anne E. Prufe]

I am a two Cumorah supporter because I think Moroni would have been an idiot to have stayed in the same place considering the Lamanites were out for his blood. He might have snuck back in, but then there is the geology...just don't buy the idea that the hill in New York is notable enough to be picked out of all the hills in the area they would have lived in to be their last stand. Might as well just sit at home in comfort to wait to be massacred.

 

In 1990 the office of the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that Cumorah is in New York:

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

Office of the First Presidency

Salt Lake City, Utah 84150

October 16, 1990

 

Bishop Darrel L. Brooks

Moore Ward

Oklahoma City Oklahoma South Stake

1000 Windemere

Moore, OK 73160

 

Dear Bishop Brooks:

 

I have been asked to forward to you for acknowledgment and handling the enclosed copy of a letter to President Gordon B. Hinckley from Ronnie Sparks of your ward. Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place.

 

The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.

 

The Brethren appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study.

 

Sincerely yours,

(signed)

F. Michael Watson

Secretary to the First Presidency

 

[Bob Crockett]

I wish it were so easy as that letter, but it isn't.  Thereafter somebody in Watson's office by the name of Carla Ogden sent a message on a fax cover sheet essentially retracting this statement.  Not explicitly, but enough for the two Cumorah adherents to make hay with it.  I have argued that the Ogden letter is not "equal dignity" with the Watson letter and thus should be ignored, but I can figure out how the First Presidency works some times.   One day it is Michael Watson firing off an unofficial statement, the next day it is somebody else.

[Calm]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Statements/Twentieth_century/First_Presidency_Letter

What Bob is referring to....

Edited January 7, 2014 by calmoriah

[Cold Steel]

http://www.bmaf.org/articles/witness_of_cumorah__goble

 

Here is my article on Cumorah published on the BMAF site. I also believe in a semi-hemispheric model with Zarahemla in Mesoamerica, but with Cumorah in New York.

 

You might want to check out that link as it returned a no-go for me.

 

Here is my blog post on this:  http://mormonskepticism.blogspot.com/2013/12/my-article-witness-of-cumorah-published.html

 

I believe that the problem with Cumorah in New York is not the site, but the quality of arguments that have been made in its behalf. Its time for New York Cumorah theorists to change their tactics and make arguments along the same lines that the Mesoamericanists have made for their models. The "Cumorah is Cumorah because the prophets said so in the past" argument doesn't fly anymore.

 

The quality of the arguments tend to be choosing a good candidate for the Hill Cumorah and then defending it. I'm convinced a better methodology would be to choose a good candidate, then do everything you can to disprove it. Don't get emotionally attached to any given candidate. My problems with the New York drumlin are simple: Draw me a map and show how it fits. The Mesoamericanists crank out maps all the time. They're not perfect, but I'm beginning to think Mesoamerica is where we'll find Cumorah. One site (NephiCode.com) goes so far as to announce: "Lehi Never Saw Mesoamerica." But it puts the Book of Mormon lands in South America.

[Calm]

You might want to check out that link as it returned a no-go for me.

 

Worked for me...I am using Safari..don't know if that makes a difference.

[Cold Steel]

Why is the Heartland model always grouped with people believing in the New York Cumorah location? I believe in a semi-hemispheric model where events in the BoM took place mostly in South America & Central America.

 

I've never heard a 2-Cumorah theory centered in the Heartlands. The primary reason I buy into the Mesoamerican models and reject the Heartlands models is because the Mesoamerican scholars keep posting maps that make sense. The Heartlands advocates can talk your head off, but none of their maps works. I want to see a River Sidon, a narrow neck of land, a Cumorah that's where it's supposed to be; hot, tropical weather.

 

The Nephi Project supports a Book of Mormon land in Peru, and this is a theory I have to read up on. My gut feeling is that they got some wires crossed somewhere and I've never seen a South American map. Besides, Joseph Smith declared that the BofM lands were on this continent. I've had a number of Mexicans remind me that Mexico is part of North America. One tour guide said, "Us, Canada, you guys--we North Americans have to stick together, y'know!" When people rely on improbables such as the weather was warmer back then, or the narrow neck is now under water or volcanic eruptions changed the face of the land so that nothing's recognizable left, I just kind of lose interest. 

[Sevenbak]

For me, the hostile weather (if indeed the climate was the same 2000 years ago), actually supports the statements made by presidents and prophets, for me at least.  The Nephites stayed in roughly the same vicinity for nearly 600 years before being compelled by something to leave their homeland in mass droves northward.  That something, stuck out to me today as I was reading in Alma 62.  

 

As Mormon said starting in verse 39, right before the migrations started, "they had had wars, and bloodsheds, and famine, and affliction, for the space of many years.  And there had been murders, and contentions, and dissensions, and all manner of iniquity… because of the exceedingly great length of the war between the Nephites and the Lamanites many had become hardened, because of the exceedingly great length of the war;"

 

I don't think they went north to "exceedingly great distances"  until they were compelled to go north.  And even then, the homeland was still south.

 

I've said it before, and I still hold to it, I'm with Orson Pratt on this one… "The extracts from the Book of Mormon, ...show that the people of " NEPHEL" or " NEPHITES" dwelt in the country of the mounds, from fifty years before Christ, till three hundred and eighty-four years after Christ."

[Anijen]

Another thing I have come across in my studies of the Ohio Valley mound builders.

 

Considering the faulty theory that the Adena were Jaredites and the Hopewell were Nephites (shared by many heartlanders), it should at the very least raise concerns. Bear in mind that the Hopewell and Adena basically shared the same geography, but the Book of Mormon states the Jaredites lived north of the Nephites. This works for a Mesoamerican theory, but does not for a heartland theory. 

[Cold Steel]

 

In 1990 the office of the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that Cumorah is in New York:

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

Office of the First Presidency

Salt Lake City, Utah 84150

October 16, 1990

 

The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.

 

The Brethren appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study.

 

Sincerely yours,

 

F. Michael Watson

Secretary to the First Presidency

 

Yep, this comes up like month-old pudding and is just as difficult to clean up. This particular letter was retracted by church leadership. The OFFICIAL POSITION of the church is that there is no official position on where the Book of Mormon lands are located. So it's probably a good idea to just delete it since its only possible use is to mislead people. 

 

Old paradigms die hard, and the simple fact is, the New York drumlin can't be the battle hill Ramah. It 1) has not one whit of strategic military value; 2) can't support a cave in which many other records could fit without collapsing; 3) doesn't have the real estate to hide 24 people after a massive series of battles; 4) is southeast of the narrow neck of land, not north, as is stated in the Book of Mormon; and 5) isn't near the seashore.

 

But the two things that really kill the whole New York Great Lakes supposition is 1) the WEATHER. The Book of Mormon just won't accommodate brutal winters. There's no snow, no ice, no casualties due to exposure, no crossing frozen rivers, no heavy clothing. Then there's them pesky snakes! They peeked out from under their rocks and holes and slithered through the snow and ice until they could sneak up on an unwary Jaredite or buffalo and then bit 'em. They cut off the land northward from the land southward, even during snowstorms. That's one hearty serpent! And 2) POPULATION. Mesoamerica was just teeming with people, and the Olmec civilization, to me, seems to be a much better fit than the Adena for the Jaredites. There's no evidence that there were ever any wars even approaching those mentioned in the Book of Mormon; yet there is evidence of great wars in Mesoamerica. Not so long ago, the Aztecs were considered the warlike elements in Mesoamerica, and the Mayans were portrayed as being civilized and peaceful. But now we know that was all complete fiction. 

 

Anti-Mormons also are trying to hold the Book of Mormon to the old Mormon paradigms as they try to discredit the church. Why? Because they know that the Great Lakes, two-continent geographic map is by far the most vulnerable to defend. I've defended the church against people who just would not concede that we could argue a Mesoamerican model. They know it's far more defensible that the New York model and they go for the same weaknesses in the latter that Clark, Peterson, Welch and others have documented.

 

 

 

[Sevenbak]

I'm actually surprised the New York Cumorah/Ramah has gotten so many votes.  I had come to think of this site as more prone to a 2 Cumorah theory, pro science and hard evidence in its direction.

 

At any rate, truth is not established by popular vote, or lobbying efforts, but it's interesting to see more diversity than I had previously thought.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Sevenbak

[Tiki]

Moroni Chapter 1:1

Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.

This verse completely contradicts the Mesoamerica Theory which claims Moroni "escaped" the Lamanites in Central America then wandered/traveled "unmolested" for 3 decades eventually to Western New York State. He was among the Lamanites as he stated and "hid" from them for the safety of his life.

Cold:

Joseph Smith Sr. raised a family in the "cold." He also had neighbors. Why would this deter Nephites?

Other branches of the House of Israel traveled into Northern Europe where it also is cold. Some are likely your ancestors from the Tribe of Ephraim.

Snow:

Nephi used the best description, apparently, that he knew of to describe the appearance of the fruit of The Tree of Life:

"...and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow."

Driven snow.

This vision / description was not only for readers of The Book of Mormon in the latter days, but for his descendants the Nephites, etc. so why would he have used an unknown metaphor to an alleged population confined in Mesoamerica as "driven snow" ? To confuse his children?

For Anijen: the nephites/mulekites inherited the land northward that had been occupied by the Jaredites.

You've forgotten the Jaredite nation was the greatest on the face of the earth during its time as promised to the Brother of Jared, and they had eventually occupied the northern regions leaving the southern regions unoccupied as a preserve for hunting. This does not fit a small 500 x 200 mile Mesoamerica model which has had ancient inhabitants throughout it. Ether 10:21. Helaman 6:10. This could also explain why ancient populations in North America appear to be small.

Regards

[Cold Steel]

I wish it were so easy as that letter, but it isn't. Thereafter somebody in Watson's office by the name of Carla Ogden sent a message on a fax cover sheet essentially retracting this statement. Not explicitly, but enough for the two Cumorah adherents to make hay with it. I have argued that the Ogden letter is not "equal dignity" with the Watson letter and thus should be ignored, but I can figure out how the First Presidency works some times. One day it is Michael Watson firing off an unofficial statement, the next day it is somebody else.

 

Anyone who's worked in a professional environment in the executive offices know this stuff happens all the time. Many offices have signature machines they can even sign letters for the boss. A friend of mine, the late biographer for Gen. George C. Marshall, used to tell me stories about letters people produced with Marshall's signature on them and stating things that he knew Marshall was either unaware of or opposed. By checking the General's log, my friend said these letters were invariably produced while the General was out of the office, often in other cities and not in communication with his people. Such letters are still used by other historians to show that Marshall supported policies he didn't support or that he was somewhere where he clearly wasn't.

 

If any of you showed an apostle a map of the Middle East and asked him to point out where the valley of Armageddon was located, would you lose your faith if he was unable to do so? Joseph Smith clearly saw the cultures he was writing about while translating the Book of Mormon, and could identify them if he saw them. With that in mind, the only culture he became genuinely enthusiastic about was the Mayan culture as reported by John Lloyd Stephens in the 1840s. I think he saw the cuts in Stephens' book and recognized what he had seen in visions in earlier days. He committed himself to saying Palenque was a Book of Mormon city.

 

Still, that info...alone...would mean little without much more to back it up.

[Sevenbak]

Tiki, good points, and while I am inclined to be of a more hemispheric belief system, it should be worth noting that Nephi had and recorded his vision of the Tree of Life while still in the old world.

 

But hey, they had snow this year in Jerusalem, so no big deal...

 

 

[Sevenbak]

Anyone who's worked in a professional environment in the executive offices know this stuff happens all the time. Many offices have signature machines they can even sign letters for the boss. A friend of mine, the late biographer for Gen. George C. Marshall, used to tell me stories about letters people produced with Marshall's signature on them and stating things that he knew Marshall was either unaware of or opposed. By checking the General's log, my friend said these letters were invariably produced while the General was out of the office, often in other cities and not in communication with his people. Such letters are still used by other historians to show that Marshall supported policies he didn't support or that he was somewhere where he clearly wasn't.

 

If any of you showed an apostle a map of the Middle East and asked him to point out where the valley of Armageddon was located, would you lose your faith if he was unable to do so? Joseph Smith clearly saw the cultures he was writing about while translating the Book of Mormon, and could identify them if he saw them. With that in mind, the only culture he became genuinely enthusiastic about was the Mayan culture as reported by John Lloyd Stephens in the 1840s. I think he saw the cuts in Stephens' book and recognized what he had seen in visions in earlier days. He committed himself to saying Palenque was a Book of Mormon city.

 

Still, that info...alone...would mean little without much more to back it up.

Joseph certainly said similar things about the Mounds and their builders on multiple occasions as well, and as I quote him in my tagline, he certainly saw and understood much more than we sometimes give him credit for.

[Tiki]

Anyone who's worked in a professional environment in the executive offices know this stuff happens all the time. Many offices have signature machines they can even sign letters for the boss. A friend of mine, the late biographer for Gen. George C. Marshall, used to tell me stories about letters people produced with Marshall's signature on them and stating things that he knew Marshall was either unaware of or opposed. By checking the General's log, my friend said these letters were invariably produced while the General was out of the office, often in other cities and not in communication with his people. Such letters are still used by other historians to show that Marshall supported policies he didn't support or that he was somewhere where he clearly wasn't.

 

If any of you showed an apostle a map of the Middle East and asked him to point out where the valley of Armageddon was located, would you lose your faith if he was unable to do so? Joseph Smith clearly saw the cultures he was writing about while translating the Book of Mormon, and could identify them if he saw them. With that in mind, the only culture he became genuinely enthusiastic about was the Mayan culture as reported by John Lloyd Stephens in the 1840s. I think he saw the cuts in Stephens' book and recognized what he had seen in visions in earlier days. He committed himself to saying Palenque was a Book of Mormon city.

 

Still, that info...alone...would mean little without much more to back it up.

Are you sure Joseph Smith signed that about Palenque, or did someone else use his signature machine?

[Sevenbak]

Are you sure Joseph Smith signed that about Palenque, or did someone else use his signature machine?

Hey, I've heard that argument used against Joseph, the Chief Editor of the Times and Seasons in this very topic.  

[Tiki]

Tiki, good points, and while I am inclined to be of a more hemispheric belief system, it should be worth noting that Nephi had and recorded his vision of the Tree of Life while still in the old world.

 

But hey, they had snow this year in Jerusalem, so no big deal...

 

 

Good point, but I believe Nephi recorded his experiences in the "Old World" while in the "New World." It is a flashback, after all, not a daily journal, if you will, and this is similar to how his descendants recorded in the smaller plates after him, writing toward the end of their lives due to the limited space on the smaller plates, as one can read in the books of Jarom and Omni.

[Tiki]

Hey, I've heard that argument used against Joseph, the Chief Editor of the Times and Seasons in this very topic.  

I've also read it used against General Marshall and the Office of The First Presidency for a letter in 1990.

So what's the point of using it?

[Sevenbak]

Good point, but I believe Nephi recorded his experiences in the "Old World" while in the "New World." It is a flashback, after all, not a daily journal, if you will, and this is similar to how his descendants recorded in the smaller plates after him, writing toward the end of their lives due to the limited space on the smaller plates, as one can read in the books of Jarom and Omni.

Recorded on plates, yes, but there's so much specific information/history/doctrine, etc. there before they got to the promised land, I just can't imagine Nephi not writing down in some form what transpired to him and his family, to be made more permanent later.   Our prophets today commend us to write down important things so we don't forget them.   I wouldn't think the ancients did differently and just relied on their memories.  Mormon states that "there are many books and many records of every kind". Not everything they wrote was on plates.

 

For example, I've always assumed the scriptures and records had by the poor of the Ammoniha-ites, that were burned and destroyed with fire, were not of metal origin.