A Theory Concerning The Nature Of The Soul

[Stargazer]

I was originally preparing this as a response to the thread about Neurology and Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), but upon reflection it seemed that posting it there might be more in the nature of a thread-jack, and unfair to those participating in what is an interesting discussion.  So I am posting it as it's own thread.

 

I chose my screen name largely because of my interest not only in astronomy and astrophysics, but also in science in general.  Professionally I am a computer programmer, and so logic is also important to me.

 

Science obviously does not require me to discard belief in things which are not able to be discovered by science, such as the existence of God, something of which I am completely and utterly convinced.  But where it is possible to apply scientific principles to the subject of spirituality and theology I am "all ears", so to speak.  Because of this, the subject of NDEs is particularly interesting.

 

I have not done any research on NDEs, but I have nevertheless constructed a theory concerning the nature of the "soul", by which I mean the brain/spirit combination.  My theory explains NDEs, which is nice, even though I didn't construct it to do so.  The theory might come across as pseudo-science because I have no mathematical description, nor the knowledge to come up with the math for it.  Theories are not necessarily required to have numbers to describe them, although before one can actually prove a theory, numbers better be involved.  An exercise for someone smarter than I.  I guess.

 

Anyway, the theory uses "Quantum Entanglement" as its basis.  I am not going to describe this here.  See Wikipedia on Quantum Entanglement if you want to know more.

 

The theory is simply this: we don't actually exist here on this planet.  We actually exist as spirits outside this Universe in a place near unto Father, but our Spirits, which partake of the nature of particles (as particle is understood in physics), are entangled with another particle here in this Universe, specifically in association with our physical bodies, as a incarnated soul.  That entangled particle is how we experience our physical existence here, and our actual spirit is not directly involved.  For the sake of discussion, I will label this entangled particle our personality.  It is only a partial personality, however, since it does not partake fully of our actual, eternal personality.  Fans of Greg Bear's science-fiction novels, particularly the 4-book series starting with the novel Eon, will be familiar with the term partial personality, and my use of the term is not inconsistent with Bear's use.  It's not identical, of course.

 

So, whatever happens to us here is communicated instantly to our spirit, and our spirit acts through this entanglement or personality, directing our bodies through the brain connection. 

 

As to inspirations, revelations, visions and whatnot, according to this theory, these are largely NOT experienced through our entangled connection, but directly with our spirits back Home.  This would explain why certain spiritual experiences, especially open visions, can be experienced by many people at the same time, but not by others physically present at the same physical site - and how they could be experienced by others not at the same physical site.  Because they are happening directly and not in meat-space, as it were.

 

So, when our bodies die, the entangled particle loses its connection with it, but is still present in the same physical frame (if not perceptible by those who are still incarnated).  Those entangled but unincarnated personalities can detect each other, however, and thus we have the intermediate place where Jesus went after his death but before his resurrection. 

 

The entanglement continues as long as we are behind the Veil, which exists because our spirit is experiencing existence only through the personality.  The Veil is upon our resurrection because the entanglement between our spirit and its partial personality is dissolved (and the particle to which we were formerly entangled goes its own way, no longer associated with us).

 

As to NDEs, when we are near death (or actually dead), our entangled personality is temporarily free to wander.  The personality also seems to temporarily retain the ability to perceive the physical world until the connection with the body is dissolved.  As to the question of why some of us retain consciousness while temporarily dead, or otherwise not tied to our bodies is something which the theory doesn't seem to have an answer for.

 

Apparently, our partial personality either projects itself to, or is perceived by other partial personalities as human-shaped. 

 

The theory may or may not explain ghosts or other paranormal activity..  I don't believe that such things are formerly-incarnated spirits, however, but are the spirits which lost their first estate and were sent here by Father for His reasons.  If they mimic formerly incarnated spirits, it is merely their normal mode of operation, which is to say, to lie and deceive -- the mimicry also may be associated with the longing such spirits have for the body which they have been denied.

 

There it is.  Completely non-falsifiable, and thus by definition not really a scientific theory.  But it does partake of the nature of an explanation for certain things described in scripture and experienced by believers (and possibly non-believers, too).

 

I am sure that someone is going to completely destroy this theory by way of well-selected scriptures that I have not considered, or by logic trains that I have missed.  If so, I shall enjoy the experience -- no sulking and slinking away.

 

And by the way, I know this sounds a bit like the premise behind The Matrix trilogy.  But it only seems so, because what happens in meat-space is actually happening there, and perceived by our personalities in the terms of the physical Universe, not as chimerical experiences within a computer space.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Stargazer

[Calm]

Well....

It certainly contradicts the Primary teaching that our bodies cloth our spirits like a glove clothes a hand, but that's not exactly doctrine (and would require the body to be hollow if we took the analogy too far).

I don't really like it just because it's kind of depressing in my view. Can't think of anything else inherently wrong with it though besides being seemingly different from how prophets described the relationship between body and spirit, but perhaps the revealed part of the relationship could still continue without the possibly unrevealed assumption they are in the same space time location.

Edited August 20, 2013 by calmoriah

[Rivers]

So our bodies are kind of like an avatar for our spirts?

[CV75]

I was originally preparing this as a response to the thread about Neurology and Near-Death Experiences (NDEs)

I think non-locality and entanglement have more to do with how the spirit perceives past and future events than with how he perceives his relationship with his own physical body and present mortal experience. The spirit and the body operate under two sets of laws and the mortal probation is an opportunity to see what it is like to reconcile them. When the spirit and the body become “inseparably connected” that soul has dominion over both sets of laws to the degree he is glorified.

 

Without a physical body: the spirit knows all things past, present and future to the extent he is aligned with his Father and has sufficient self-awareness to access all the available entangled connections. Being co-eternal with the Father allows a spirit to “break off” and “come back” as he progresses in light and knowledge in the pre-mortal estate(s). An obedient spirit would know a lot, and a less obedient spirit would know less. Jesus knew the mind of God, and Satan did not; as powerful as each was, they could only exercise their power in the direction of the humility they possessed.

 

With a mortal body: the spirit’s self-awareness is constrained by the Fall, which is partially manifest in the associative mechanisms of thought and memory that mask or veil the entanglements that otherwise communicate past, present and future events. The Holy Ghost can quicken the spirit’s capacity in a fallen world and body, and can also strengthen the associative mechanisms to accommodate (or at least survive) the spirit’s bringing his entanglements into the present mortal flesh.

 

With an immortal body: both entanglement and associative mechanisms operate on a par to the degree of light the soul can receive (or tolerate, or withstand--or is willing to receive).

 

So I think the spirit is definitely located here on earth with his body, and learns to master his perceptions of the “here and now” through associative mechanisms. Anything he perceives from other times, places and estates is accomplished through entanglement, which more often than not requires quickening by the Holy Ghost to overcome the effects of the Fall on his perceptions.

 

So I think NDEs could be of various types. Some could be examples of entanglement, some could be example of associative mechanisms, and some could be both.

[ksfisher]

 

 

 

Anyway, the theory uses "Quantum Entanglement" as its basis.  I am not going to describe this here.  See Wikipedia on Quantum Entanglement if you want to know more.

 

 

 

Quantum Entaglement may be of use as long as you believe that the soul exists in this universe, in this dimension.  If you want to look beyond that Super String Theory may offer more of an explanation as to how we could exist both here and in other dimension simultaneously. 

[Questing Beast]

...

 

There it is.  Completely non-falsifiable, and thus by definition not really a scientific theory.  But it does partake of the nature of an explanation for certain things described in scripture and experienced by believers (and possibly non-believers, too).

 

I am sure that someone is going to completely destroy this theory by way of well-selected scriptures that I have not considered, or by logic trains that I have missed.  If so, I shall enjoy the experience -- no sulking and slinking away.

 

And by the way, I know this sounds a bit like the premise behind The Matrix trilogy.  But it only seems so, because what happens in meat-space is actually happening there, and perceived by our personalities in the terms of the physical Universe, not as chimerical experiences within a computer space.

Using "the scriptures" to demolish anything is resorting to circular logic. Anyone who does not view scripture as exclusive "word of God" will not identify with conclusions derived from them.

 

Similarities with scifi/fantasy are explained by the shared "entanglement" (I like that term). There are only a limited number of plots and outcomes we all know by heart. Right now the movie industry is going through the "apocalyptic" cycle again, where the one wo/man is the hero who "knows" and has to save the world. Each of us are to ID as that character. Hugh Nibley delighted in pointing out the eternal champion themes in ancient lore, repeated over and over again, with Jesus as the archetypal story that fulfills the rest, the only true "version" in fact.

 

Your "theory" is very similar to mine in essence, go figure: my favored concept to explain how we do this "being there" (here) thing is easily dovetailed with yours. In the "Home World" we awoke as immortals, perfect and indestructible by anything in the "world of humans". You can awake in the heart of the sun, or bottom of an ocean, on top of a glacier or in the depths of space between planets, etc. Your first thoughts are upon the things you first notice as you attain consciousness for that first time. You have just come from "God".

 

Then you meet "Others" and form associations, friendships and intimacies. Time passes, but other than the courses of the planets around the sun you do not measure time, not yet. The associations, friendships and intimacies, spawn rivalries, envies and eventually jealousies. And Joy, which is every soul's free gift upon attaining conscious free will, is eroded and vanishes away. Ignorance is the cause of it. Weaknesses in "perfect" beings? How can "perfect" beings have weaknesses? Our individuality, our uniqueness, is not a weakness, it is part of the gift of "self". Ignorance, on the other hand, IS a huge weakness, and in some more than others, that is the inevitable part of individuality: some are destined to go a long road back to Joy, while some never lose their grasp on Joy entirely and hardly require a lesson in what it Is and is not. Yet all must pass through mortality in order to learn by the opposition, the contrast, what principles of behavior and belief lead to Joy everlasting. No one is created to fail.

 

At some point, "sleep" comes to the wrangling immortals, and while they "sleep" they are "entangled" in the mortal world (for us, the world of humans). And when they awake the "Home World" is vanished away: their minds have been removed to some pleasant "hinterland" or dimension, until their knowledge makes them worthy to return. While "being there", they awake and sleep in succession, perhaps solitary, or sharing their memories with Others, the variables are infinite.

 

While sleeping, the mind is "entangled" in the real flesh and blood world of mortal things: everything is dogged by Death. Joy is fleeting if not entirely non existent. Merely a hint most of the time, of things promised in the "afterlife", which is what post-death seems to mortals, of course, living without empirical memory of the "Home World".

 

How long "sleep" lasts is of course nonsensical: spacetime is the plaything of immortals. But clearly "the life of a tree" on Earth is no more than a nap or night's sleep to the immortal mind. Upon death, the "entanglement" vanishes away and the mind awakes and ponders. If all that needs to be learned has finally been learned, then the mind is aware of the "road Home". The Full Home World appears to view once again, never to be lost, and associations, friendships and intimacies are renewed with all those who have found their way back.

 

"Sleeping" to those denizens of the Home World is no longer imperative, it is voluntary, and those who wish to can enter into mortality in "roles" to help those still learning to regain Joy. The "Helpers" can take on any role, a child dying early, a child handicapped, a disabled loved one, a serial criminal, a world tyrant, a devil, to cause the opposition and pain by which mortals learn to choose what leads to and promotes Joy, and what is fleeting and dross.

 

"Sleeping" immortals do not experience reality, because they awake from mortality to their real state. But there is nothing imaginary or ephemeral about the mortal worlds that make up the multiverse. As in your theory, the mind enters into it and takes upon itself roles or personalities, "worlds without end" for some/many, before they finally "get it", and can see their way back to the "Home World" forever....

[Peppermint Patty]

Stargazer,

 

This is a very interesting idea.  It looks like there are several prominent scientist that feel is entirely possible we live in a simulated reality:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality

[Stargazer]

Well....

It certainly contradicts the Primary teaching that our bodies cloth our spirits like a glove clothes a hand, but that's not exactly doctrine (and would require the body to be hollow if we took the analogy too far).

I don't really like it just because it's kind of depressing in my view. Can't think of anything else inherently wrong with it though besides being seemingly different from how prophets described the relationship between body and spirit, but perhaps the revealed part of the relationship could still continue without the possibly unrevealed assumption they are in the same space time location.

 

Actually, it doesn't really contradict the notion of our body clothing our spirit.  Because in the theory the body does in fact affect our spirit in the same way as if our spirit were here itself, instead of by representation.  All my theory suggests is that the personality which inhabits the body is a proxy for the spirit, and since they communicate instantly, might as well be the spirit, for practical purposes.

[Stargazer]

So our bodies are kind of like an avatar for our spirts?

 

If you're thinking in terms of the movie Avatar, I suppose so.

 

Although the premise of the movie was full of baloney -- as much as I like the movie, the inverse-square law alone would have made what Sully was doing almost impossible.  The farther his avatar got from the location where his human body was, the signal would have dropped off dramatically, and eventually could not have communicated adequately enough.  Worse, the magnetic fields on that moon were quite ferocious, and combined with conductive substances such as unobtainium (what a name!) would like have completely attenuated the two-way communications between human and avatar.

[Questing Beast]

If adequate communication were opened up between the "me" sitting in this chair, and the Whole Power that governs the world of humans, I could, from this chair, regulate and edit the entire world of humans. Jesus could do it. Look what happened to him. So even if I AM opens the communication to little old me, I would be a fool to change a thing. Somebody in the mortal world would notice, and when they got over their shock, they'd kill me, because they would not believe I was one of them. And if I am not one of them, what am I? Something scary to them, that's all. What would Jesus do if he did it over? He'd probably cut back on the metaphysical showoff stuff a tad, if he wanted to stick around longer that is....

[The Nehor]

Quantum entanglement works as a metaphor for your theory but it does not in any way support it. Quantum entanglement just does not work like that.

[Ahab]

So  you think we're not here, but there.  What about everything else we see around us?  Not here either?

 

Sheesh.  Just look at the stuff we can come up with using our imaginations, or the imaginations of somebody else.

 

Why would you want to even entertain that idea, anyway?  Do you think it gives you some kind of advantage to think of yourself as not here, but there?

[Questing Beast]

Ahab, "not here" means only in the sense of the immortal mind. You would not say that God is not here? The mind of God comprehends all things simultaneously, scriptures are clear on that trait of God's mind. Why do we have to be different? Especially if we are literal "offspring" of Deity, why could not our minds comprehend a mortal experience while remaining immortal? And if immortal, why not experience "being there" (here) while being immortal at the same time? We obviously die and depart this venue, and are not disembodied other than from the temporary flesh and blood with which we were "entangled". It seems obvious to me that a mortal experience can be "powered" by an immortal mind. "Sleeping" probably works to form the connection. While mortal, the mind is in every sense of the words, "being there" for the duration. The immortal body can wait for its return. Or, you can have it your way too: nothing requires that there be ONE WAY for every egocentric soul in existence. An immortal can descend to mortality and then depart from it, if that's how you prefer to look at it. The result is the same for an immortal: mortality is temporary, very instructive and increases the Joy of the immortal mind through experience and learning....

[Ahab]

Ahab, "not here" means only in the sense of the immortal mind. You would not say that God is not here? The mind of God comprehends all things simultaneously, scriptures are clear on that trait of God's mind. Why do we have to be different? Especially if we are literal "offspring" of Deity, why could not our minds comprehend a mortal experience while remaining immortal? And if immortal, why not experience "being there" (here) while being immortal at the same time? We obviously die and depart this venue, and are not disembodied other than from the temporary flesh and blood with which we were "entangled". It seems obvious to me that a mortal experience can be "powered" by an immortal mind. "Sleeping" probably works to form the connection. While mortal, the mind is in every sense of the words, "being there" for the duration. The immortal body can wait for its return. Or, you can have it your way too: nothing requires that there be ONE WAY for every egocentric soul in existence. An immortal can descend to mortality and then depart from it, if that's how you prefer to look at it. The result is the same for an immortal: mortality is temporary, very instructive and increases the Joy of the immortal mind through experience and learning....

I think the main reason that idea seems so strange to me is because it would mean (or I think it would mean) I am not actually here in this body, the one which I regard as my own.  Which by extension would also mean I do not and would not have my own body to be resurrected into and reunited with as the body I will have for all of eternity after that point.  I know my mind/spirit is immortal, but that doesn't mean by immortal mind/spirit can't actually be here in this mortal body.  

 

And more to the point, what's the point of me thinking that I (or my mind/spirit which I think of as the real "me") is somewhere else other than right here right now in this body?  And what advantage would that give me or anyone else even if that were true?

 

To think my mind/spirit isn't in this body is to think I'm operating this thing only by remote control.  But why this one?  Where did it come from?  And where is it going?

[Questing Beast]

I think the main reason that idea seems so strange to me is because it would mean (or I think it would mean) I am not actually here in this body, the one which I regard as my own.  Which by extension would also mean I do not and would not have my own body to be resurrected into and reunited with as the body I will have for all of eternity after that point.  I know my mind/spirit is immortal, but that doesn't mean by immortal mind/spirit can't actually be here in this mortal body.  

 

And more to the point, what's the point of me thinking that I (or my mind/spirit which I think of as the real "me") is somewhere else other than right here right now in this body?  And what advantage would that give me or anyone else even if that were true?

 

To think my mind/spirit isn't in this body is to think I'm operating this thing only by remote control.  But why this one?  Where did it come from?  And where is it going?

As I read your questions I kept feeling like my concepts answer them all. But then, so too does Judeo-Christianity, and specifically Mormonism, answer them all. Religion "answers" them all, just not in exactly alike ways - otherwise there would be no plethora of religions!

 

The evidence tells us that no two egocentric universes (persons) are exactly alike, and at the same instant we are all here on this planet: empirically, literally "being there" together. I don't see any benefit, either, in asserting that mortality is like playing "remote control". What is the evidence for that anyway? It's just an idle concept without basis.

 

We exist where our consciousness exists. That means that while sleeping as mortals, our bodies lie quiescent while our minds soar elsewhere. Until our minds resume conscious contact with the slumbering body, they do not register anything consciously where the body is. That is evidence for a condition that still baffles scientists; why sleep at all? The accumulation of hypotheses is large trying to explain the phenomenon of sleep in all animal life. We can't test the reason why, because, in my hypothesis, the answer resides "off-world". All life is immortal and exists moment by moment forever. The "world of humans" is established this way. That does not mean that all worlds in all of creation are exactly alike with ours. But in our world we sleep. As mortals we MUST sleep or eventually perish. As immortals we must sleep to experience things we would not otherwise experience in a perfect physical and mental/spiritual state: we require opposition in order to perceive the reality of our immortal existence. We must experience "being there" or else we won't learn.

 

Your body is already perfect and immortal. But to treat this mortal one as something less than "yours" would be to foster incorrect notions about the transitory experience of mortality: it would put ideas in place that would risk the duration of this life, i.e. put at hazard the learning environment. So the respect and love we have of self as immortals must biologically support that love and respect, and we call it the "instinct for survival", or "will to live", etc. It is not natural to disregard the safety and welfare of the body. To do so would eject us quite swiftly out of this venue, compelling us to start over, and some things cannot be learned by the very young! We must stick mortality out to the end, in old age, in order to learn the full gamut of life's school of opposition. We also help younger people to see life's lessons more clearly by sticking around long after we are weary with our own personal lives. And often the aged parent who is no longer lucid, does not even recognize family anymore, teaches valuable lessons to grieving family and loved ones, about what joy is not: by finally dying and being freed of the "entangling" decrepitude of the mortal body, the aged person also frees the grieving loved ones and they experience the Joy of relief at last. The opposition has taught what Joy Is and what it is not....

Edited August 23, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Ahab]

The evidence tells us that no two egocentric universes (persons) are exactly alike, and at the same instant we are all here on this planet: empirically, literally "being there" together. I don't see any benefit, either, in asserting that mortality is like playing "remote control". What is the evidence for that anyway? It's just an idle concept without basis.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant, but if you're saying you think your mind/spirit is somewhere other than where your body is, then that means you (your mind/spirit) is operating your body by remote control or that you are then what we refer to as "dead".  Meaning your body isn't breathing anymore on its own.

 

We exist where our consciousness exists.

I'd rather say we exist where our spirit/mind is.  That is where we are, whether or not our body is sleeping.

 

That means that while sleeping as mortals, our bodies lie quiescent while our minds soar elsewhere. Until our minds resume conscious contact with the slumbering body, they do not register anything consciously where the body is. That is evidence for a condition that still baffles scientists; why sleep at all?

You sleep because your mortal body gets tired, and I don't know about you but my body still moves in my sleep.  I still breathe, for one thing, and my feet will kick back and forth when I'm in a dream and imagining myself walking or running.  And that's proof that my mind/sprit is still in my body while I am sleeping.

 

The accumulation of hypotheses is large trying to explain the phenomenon of sleep in all animal life. We can't test the reason why, because, in my hypothesis, the answer resides "off-world".

That's just your imagination, though.  You're not going anywhere else when you are sleeping because your body is still breathing.

 

All life is immortal and exists moment by moment forever.

The question as I understand it is where you are, or where your mind/spirit is.  Your spirit/mind is immortal but your mortal body is not.

 

The "world of humans" is established this way. That does not mean that all worlds in all of creation are exactly alike with ours. But in our world we sleep. As mortals we MUST sleep or eventually perish. As immortals we must sleep to experience things we would not otherwise experience in a perfect physical and mental/spiritual state: we require opposition in order to perceive the reality of our immortal existence. We must experience "being there" or else we won't learn.

You keep talking as if you are somewhere else now.  Please pay attention and realize where you are.

 

Your body is already perfect and immortal.

In the Church when we say "body" we're usually referring to our mortal body, and No my mortal body is not perfect nor is it immortal.  It will be resurrected someday and then it will be immortal, like  my mind/spirit is immortal, but as of now it's not, yet.

 

But to treat this mortal one as something less than "yours" would be to foster incorrect notions about the transitory experience of mortality: it would put ideas in place that would risk the duration of this life, i.e. put at hazard the learning environment. So the respect and love we have of self as immortals must biologically support that love and respect, and we call it the "instinct for survival", or "will to live", etc. It is not natural to disregard the safety and welfare of the body. To do so would eject us quite swiftly out of this venue, compelling us to start over, and some things cannot be learned by the very young! We must stick mortality out to the end, in old age, in order to learn the full gamut of life's school of opposition. We also help younger people to see life's lessons more clearly by sticking around long after we are weary with our own personal lives. And often the aged parent who is no longer lucid, does not even recognize family anymore, teaches valuable lessons to grieving family and loved ones, about what joy is not: by finally dying and being freed of the "entangling" decrepitude of the mortal body, the aged person also frees the grieving loved ones and they experience the Joy of relief at last. The opposition has taught what Joy Is and what it is not....

Some interesting thoughts, there.  Some I agree with, some I don't agree with, and with some I'm not sure what you mean.

[The Nehor]

My soul is tied to two vessels. One is a human body; one is in an immortal Megalodon living in the depths of the Pacific. It explains a lot. My lust for seal meat, how I go crazy when I am around blood, and why I thought Jaws in those movies was a shrimpy little putz.

[inquiringmind]

In the "Home World" we awoke as immortals, perfect and indestructible by anything in the "world of humans". You can awake in the heart of the sun, or bottom of an ocean, on top of a glacier or in the depths of space between planets, etc. Your first thoughts are upon the things you first notice as you attain consciousness for that first time. You have just come from "God"

 

But aren't "we" uncreated and co-eternal with God?

 

How could we have any "first thoughts"?

[Ahab]

But aren't "we" uncreated and co-eternal with God?

 

How could we have any "first thoughts"?

As a kind of being we co-existed with God by being a part of him and the kind of being he is even before he gave birth to us.  Just like any child is a part of his/her parents before those people gave birth to that child.  That's why we say we don't come from nothing, or from out of nowhere.  We came from our parents in a perpetual chain of parents with no beginning to our species, in general terms.

 

In a sense we each think of ourselves as having a beginning, though, even though a part of our parents perpetuating their own species.  We usually start counting from that day when our parents gave birth to us and we became an independent person apart from our parents.  Apart from them, but still a part of them and the same kind of being they are.

 

So, contrary to popular opinion, life does not begin at conception.  Life is perpetuated by individuals who can perpetuate their own species, and we are literally the children of our Father in heaven.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Ahab

[pogi]

 

As to inspirations, revelations, visions and whatnot, according to this theory, these are largely NOT experienced through our entangled connection, but directly with our spirits back Home. 

 

1 Corinthians 6:19 might be problematic to this part of your theory.  It states: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

 

In this passage it is clear that the Holy Ghost can actually enter our physical bodies (temples).  Why does it work in our actual physical bodies?  Because that's where our spirits are, that is the temple where spirit speaks to spirit. 

Edited August 23, 2013 by pogi

[Ahab]

1 Corinthians 6:19 might be problematic to this part of your theory.  It states: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

 

In this passage it is clear that the Holy Ghost works in our actual physical bodies (temples).  Why does it work in our actual physical bodies?  Because that's where our spirits are, that is the temple where spirit speaks to spirit. 

I like the way you said that, and I thank you for the thought you helped me to have which I hadn't thought about in that way before.

[inquiringmind]

As a kind of being we co-existed with God by being a part of him and the kind of being he is even before he gave birth to us.  Just like any child is a part of his/her parents before those people gave birth to that child.  That's why we say we don't come from nothing, or from out of nowhere.  We came from our parents in a perpetual chain of parents with no beginning to our species, in general terms.

 

In a sense we each think of ourselves as having a beginning, though, even though a part of our parents perpetuating their own species.  We usually start counting from that day when our parents gave birth to us and we became an independent person apart from our parents.  Apart from them, but still a part of them and the same kind of being they are.

 

So, contrary to popular opinion, life does not begin at conception.  Life is perpetuated by individuals who can perpetuate their own species, and we are literally the children of our Father in heaven.

 

I like that.

 

But then, how would you understand Abraham 3:17-19?

 

 

Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will ^ado it.

 18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two ^aspirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are ^bgnolaum, or eternal.

 19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am ^amore intelligent than they all.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/3.18?lang=eng#17

Edited August 23, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Ahab]

I like that.

 

But then, how would you understand Abraham 3:17-19?

 

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/3.18?lang=eng#17

Apparently how long someone has lived isn't the deciding factor in how intelligent they are or can become.

 

I believe our Lord was talking about 2 spirits/persons who were not as advanced, intellectually, as he was at that point.  He would not have said that in regards to his/our Father, though, because he and our Father are as intelligent as each other.   And I do think it's possible that we can become as intelligent as they are, too, someday.

[inquiringmind]

I believe our Lord was talking about 2 spirits/persons who were not as advanced, intellectually, as he was at that point.

 

And doesn't He say "have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are ^bgnolaum, or eternal"?

 

Wouldn't that mean these 2 spirits/persons (and hence all of us) are uncreated and co-eternal with God?

 

So how could we "awake," or have any "first thoughts"?

[The Nehor]

And doesn't He say "have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are ^bgnolaum, or eternal"?

 

Wouldn't that mean these 2 spirits/persons (and hence all of us) are uncreated and co-eternal with God?

 

So how could we "awake," or have any "first thoughts"?

The question would be what is meant by spirits in this case. Does it mean what we would call sentient spirits or is it saying that all spirit has existed forever and was was at some point formed into our spirits and became sentient? Or is there something else going on?

I have no idea.