Hans Mattsson, A New Doubter

[why me]

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0

“I was just in a bubble, and we felt so happy,” Mr. Mattsson said.

The first doubts filtered up to him from members who had turned to the Internet to research a Sunday school talk. There are dozens of Web sites other than the Mormons’ own that present critical views of the faith.

The questions were things like:

■ Why does the church always portray Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon from golden plates, when witnesses described him looking down into a hat at a “peep stone,” a rock that he believed helped him find buried treasure?

■ Why were black men excluded from the priesthood from the mid-1800s until 1978?

■ Why did Smith claim that the Book of Abraham, a core scripture, was a translation of ancient writings from the Hebrew patriarch Abraham, when Egyptologists now identify the papyrus that Smith used in the translation as a common funerary scroll that has nothing to do with Abraham?

■ Is it true that Smith took dozens of wives, some as young as 14 and some already wed to other Mormon leaders, to the great pain of his first wife, Emma?

About that last question, Mr. Mattsson said, “That was kind of shocking.”

The entire article is a good read. What do you think about his concerns? I realize that there is a thread about him but the article puts it all in a nutshell.

Edited July 22, 2013 by why me

[why me]

I have a simple problem. Here we have a good guy who has been a leader in the lds church. I am sure that he had many spiritual experiences while in the lds church in his positions or callings and as a mormon in general. How can a member who most likely had the feelings of the spirit often suddenly chuck it all away? And how can a member of his standing who most likely had countless spiritual experiences throw it all away because he did not know this or that. This is what I just don't get. Like i said, a lds testimony is built on sand. But why?

[Senator]

I have a simple problem. Here we have a good guy who has been a leader in the lds church. I am sure that he had many spiritual experiences while in the lds church in his positions or callings and as a mormon in general. How can a member who most likely had the feelings of the spirit often suddenly chuck it all away? And how can a member of his standing who most likely had countless spiritual experiences throw it all away because he did not know this or that. This is what I just don't get. Like i said, a lds testimony is built on sand. But why?

Who has said he has "chucked it all away"?

[bluebell]

I have a simple problem. Here we have a good guy who has been a leader in the lds church. I am sure that he had many spiritual experiences while in the lds church in his positions or callings and as a mormon in general. How can a member who most likely had the feelings of the spirit often suddenly chuck it all away? And how can a member of his standing who most likely had countless spiritual experiences throw it all away because he did not know this or that. This is what I just don't get. Like i said, a lds testimony is built on sand. But why?

His doubt became stronger than his faith. When that happens, spiritual experiences become easy to explain away. Doubt can be a very detrimental thing, which is probably why the Savior commands us not to do it.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I am sure that he had many spiritual experiences while in the lds church in his positions or callings and as a mormon in general.

Whence this surety?

[Tacenda]

Whence this surety?

Try if you might, to actually listen to the podcasts, maybe you'll be enlightened that he indeed have many spiritual experiences and even wrote them down on three pages. I can't say that I've had spiritual experiences enough to fill half a page.

[bluebell]

I can't say that I've had spiritual experiences enough to fill half a page.

Then what is/was your testimony built upon?

[Nevo]

Doubt can be a very detrimental thing, which is probably why the Savior commands us not to do it.

On the other hand, the scriptures also exhort us "prove all things [and] hold fast to that which is good" (1 Thess. 5:21). Joseph Smith taught that "by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" (HC 6:248). Hans Mattsson was right to question and, as far as I can tell, he tried to go about it the right way. He continued to pray, studied the scriptures, and sought clarification from his file leaders. Unfortunately, answers and resources from the Church's end were either inadequate or non-existent.

I have no doubt that the Church will do better in the coming months and years, but it is probably already too late for Elder Mattsson and many others like him—good, decent members who were blindsided by "anti-Mormon lies" that turned out to be largely correct, something they'd "never before supposed" because they'd trusted Church leaders and manuals implicitly and hadn't immersed themselves in online message boards and apologetic sites.

[Tacenda]

Then what is/was your testimony built upon?

I was taught it was true since a babe. Each week taught that it was, from church leaders and teachers. Never really tried to get a testimony because it was there the whole time. But remember the warm feelings when listening to an inspired speaker. Or witnessing the good that is done on a daily basis. My testimony was based on people, and I'm not alone. I know of one woman in my ward who is very spiritual that couldn't get the witness of the truthfulness while on her mission and feeling very frustrated. But her mission president counseled her to keep going and have faith. She then decided her testimony was in the LDS that surrounded her and in her ward family now. I then realized after hearing this that that's where my testimony has been. And that I've been told it's true for so much of my life. I'm not the most knowledgeable person and can be easily convinced I guess.

[bluebell]

On the other hand, the scriptures also exhort us "prove all things [and] hold fast to that which is good" (1 Thess. 5:21). Joseph Smith taught that "by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" (HC 6:248). Hans Mattsson was right to question and, as far as I can tell, he tried to go about it the right way. He continued to pray, studied the scriptures, and sought clarification from his file leaders. Unfortunately, answers and resources from the Church's end were either inadequate or non-existent.

Having questions is not the same as doubt though. You can be believing while still looking for answers for things you don't understand.

I have no doubt that the Church will do better in the coming months and years, but it is probably already too late for Elder Mattsson and many others like him—good, decent members who were blindsided by "anti-Mormon lies" that turned out to be largely correct, something they'd "never before supposed" because they'd trusted Church leaders and manuals implicitly and hadn't immersed themselves in online message boards and apologetic sites.

Again though, it really has nothing to do with online message boards. If someone is believing and does not doubt, they will not lose their testimony of the gospel, regardless of what their questions are.

[BlueDreams]

But why?

I don't know about chucking, it seems like he hasn't fully let go of the faith entirely, from the sound of the article, though I haven't looked at the podcast (and probably won't....it's not my cup of tea). Personally, as I've read and thought of this....I thought of the diffs between my own experience and theirs. I'd known about polygamy and a number of other things from a young age (at least in basic information) and more of the less known details in my mid teens from the same sources: the net. It didn't phase me in the least and at the same time my faith was becoming stronger, not weaker (I went from what I'd call irrelegious/apathetic to earnestly seeking/changing). I can't remember a moment of true doubt. At times I think it might have partially come from my expectation or "foundation" of sorts. Nothing in my life was ideal. Not one bit. The church offered something that no other source could: peace and solace and the promise for something brighter than what I had. I needed that and I didn't need a perfect history. When I saw various things about history, it didn't necessarily reflect on what the church was now but what the people were and how they grew, slowly and surely as a whole and as individuals. God made something quite messy and rough into something beautiful and strong. And that's what I needed anyways and that's what you'd find in every single account of his peoples. So delving in history just wasn't that major. I didn't trust any source, I dug around till I was satisfied, and didn't really bother with other things because I simply didn't care as much.

Often the way I hear this described from people who've experienced more doubt than faith on such notes is that they started on a different page than I did.... they expected more in the sense that they expected the sweetness to be absolute from the get-go. It's as though they bit into the fruit and were surprised/disappointed to find a less tasty pit at the center. By proclaiming the church is true (or something like it) they leaned toward something solely unique from any human experience....including those past found in the bible and the BoM.

I feel that this can often be exacerbated by reactions by others to it as well. The push against said claims by lay-members can be less assuring and more a sense of some galileo act in seeking truth. When it's really not all that remarkable. It makes something troubling into something extremely secretive, hard to digest, and problematic. Though I'm sure these leaders could have done better, I don't know if it's fair to expect that much from them in the first place.

But frankly, I don't get it. I still find myself scratching my head and wondering how did we get the same information often in similar formats and end up in completely different spots. What did they expect that differed so drastically from what I did? I doubt there would be one satisfying answer, since each person will differ. My guesses would be about their foundations, their expectation, the presentation and reactions by others, and the emphasis of doubt v faith.

With luv,

BD

Edited July 22, 2013 by BlueDreams

[bluebell]

I was taught it was true since a babe. Each week taught that it was, from church leaders and teachers. Never really tried to get a testimony because it was there the whole time. But remember the warm feelings when listening to an inspired speaker. Or witnessing the good that is done on a daily basis. My testimony was based on people, and I'm not alone. I know of one woman in my ward who is very spiritual that couldn't get the witness of the truthfulness while on her mission and feeling very frustrated. But her mission president counseled her to keep going and have faith. She then decided her testimony was in the LDS that surrounded her and in her ward family now. I then realized after hearing this that that's where my testimony has been. And that I've been told it's true for so much of my life. I'm not the most knowledgeable person and can be easily convinced I guess.

Leaning on other people's testimonies only works for a while. There definitely comes a time when everyone has to find out what THEY believe, rather than following along with the loudest voices in the crowd.

It doesn't seem that Mattsson had the same issue as you've described though. It seems like he truly did have a testimony, but that he lost it.

[Alan]

As I said on the other thread, I believe this guy is a big fraud. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

And let's get something straight; this guy was not really a General Authority. He was an area Seventy.

There is a difference.

Stop the name calling. This is a sensitive issue do not throw bombs.

[cdowis]

He had doubts.

He went to the church to answer those doubts.

The church "side stepped" the answers. (Probably told him to figure it out himself, do his own research and pray about it)

He is now going to the newspapers with his doubts.

[canard78]

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0

“I was just in a bubble, and we felt so happy,” Mr. Mattsson said.

The first doubts filtered up to him from members who had turned to the Internet to research a Sunday school talk. There are dozens of Web sites other than the Mormons’ own that present critical views of the faith.

The questions were things like:

■ Why does the church always portray Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon from golden plates, when witnesses described him looking down into a hat at a “peep stone,” a rock that he believed helped him find buried treasure?

■ Why were black men excluded from the priesthood from the mid-1800s until 1978?

■ Why did Smith claim that the Book of Abraham, a core scripture, was a translation of ancient writings from the Hebrew patriarch Abraham, when Egyptologists now identify the papyrus that Smith used in the translation as a common funerary scroll that has nothing to do with Abraham?

■ Is it true that Smith took dozens of wives, some as young as 14 and some already wed to other Mormon leaders, to the great pain of his first wife, Emma?

About that last question, Mr. Mattsson said, “That was kind of shocking.”

The entire article is a good read. What do you think about his concerns? I realize that there is a thread about him but the article puts it all in a nutshell.

There's also a thread going about the article:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/61334-some-mormons-search-the-web-and-find-doubt/page__pid__1209281045__st__80#entry1209281045

I think his story will resonate with many people who have struggled with difficult questions and a transition of faith.

The questions above are only a few of many. He and other Swedish saints were visited by Elder Marlin Jensen and Richard Turley in 2010. They had 15-16 questions. Jensen and Turley did a pretty shockingly poor job of trying to answer them.

And he's not a new doubter. We just newly know. He's been working through these concerns for 8 years. It's not a new doubt.

I've only been going for about 12-18 months on these questions. I can't imagine the exhaustion of working through it all for 8 years.

[canard78]

He had doubts.

He went to the church to answer those doubts.

The church "side stepped" the answers. (Probably told him to figure it out himself, do his own research and pray about it)

He is now going to the newspapers with his doubts.

The church had a go at answering them. They even sent Elder Jensen and Bro. Turley to have a go. They did a pretty bad job. If the church historian and his assistant couldn't resolve these then it's no wonder they went looking elsewhere.

EDIT TO ADD:

The transcript has been removed by Dehlin with this note instead:

• Originally I shared a transcript of the 2010 meeting between the disaffected Swedish saints and Elder Marlin Jensen and Richard Turley. I have since decided to stop sharing the transcript (since it was recorded without permission). Please forgive the inconvenience. I am walking a difficult line as an active church member, and am trying to do the “right thing” for all parties involved. This is a difficult balance.
  

I had downloaded a copy before the link was removed. I'm not sure whether to share or not. I guess out of respect for Dehlin, Turley and Elder Jensen I'd be better to not continue distributing it.

Edited July 23, 2013 by canard78

[canard78]

As I said on the other thread, I believe this guy is a big fraud. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

And let's get something straight; this guy was not really a General Authority. He was an area Seventy.

There is a difference.

Does it make you feel better that he's only an area seventy. So the GAs called a fraud as area seventy? Good powers of discernment of them then.

Besides which you have no more evidence that Elder Mattsson is a fraud than that Joseph didn't practice polygamy. You seem to form your opinions independent of the facts and then take it from there.

This man, with others, was visited by Elder Jensen and Bro. Turley (at the risk of repeating myself!) in 2010. Here's the transcript:

http://mormonstories.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Turley_Jensen_Stockholm_2010.pdf

He was there (they mention him by name in the meeting). They obviously didn't consider him too much of a fruad to take a special trip to meet him and the other Swedish members.

[canard78]

As I said on the other thread, I believe this guy is a big fraud. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

And let's get something straight; this guy was not really a General Authority. He was an area Seventy.

There is a difference.

Accusing someone of fraud without evidence is slander. You have provided no evidence and are slandering Elder Mattsson.

Just one example among many others:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-02-26/business/chi-chicago-man-accused-of-fraud-sues-sec-for-1b-for-defamation-20130226_1_anthony-fields-bogus-securities-defamation-suit

[canard78]

I recognise I've been quite vocal and emotional in my defence of Hans Mattsson.

I've listened to his interview with Dehlin. I've read the full transcript of the Turley/Jensen visit to Sweden in 2010.

If find Mattsson's concerns reasonable and often unanswered.

I'll try to calm the passion in my posts down and 'play the ball as it lies.'

[Storm Rider]

I have a simple problem. Here we have a good guy who has been a leader in the lds church. I am sure that he had many spiritual experiences while in the lds church in his positions or callings and as a mormon in general. How can a member who most likely had the feelings of the spirit often suddenly chuck it all away? And how can a member of his standing who most likely had countless spiritual experiences throw it all away because he did not know this or that. This is what I just don't get. Like i said, a lds testimony is built on sand. But why?

Maybe you could answer me a question I have always wondered about; how could an apostle of Jesus Christ, who learned the gospel at the feet of the Master Teacher, still betray him with a kiss in the case of Judas or deny him three times in the case of Peter? When you answer this then you will have the answer for your questions.

[ALarson]

As I said on the other thread, I believe this guy is a big fraud. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

I doubt that he wants your sympathy, Alan (Rock).

Your entire attitude on this is interesting since you still do not know that Joseph Smith lived polygamy and you have stated that he didn't write D & C 132 either. (Direct quote from you on another thread: "Whose hand was D&C 132 written in? Answer: William Clayton.")

I don't want to derail this thread, but I'm bumping the thread where you promise to provide evidence that William Clayton's journals were altered or rewritten as proof that Joseph Smith never lived polygamy.

Edited July 22, 2013 by ALarson

[Garden Girl]

I'm sorry that Mattsson has lost his testimony and faith in the restored gospel... it can happen... but we usually do not see it in someone with his years and experience in the Church. When it does happen, people often lose sight that this is nothing new... the people who saw and heard Christ himself... witnessed his miracles... still turned away... people have been turning away from Christ's teachings for millenia...

Even Church leaders in our early history, who had had incredible spiritual experiences, turned away for one reason or another... some returned and embraced full fellowship again... some didn't.

So what is new about Mattsson's faith crisis?

I'm sorry for him... and I always pray that I will not be one to fall away... and thankfully, I myself have had incredibly strong witnesses of the Spirit through the years... I've told of one here, I'll tell it once again...

It was Oct '09 Gen Conf... that week on this Board there had been several disucussions that had raised questions, some of which had given me pause as often anti material/posts can... My faith wasn't really what could be termed "shaken," but a couple of things did give me pause.

So, beginning session of Gen Conf., I was in my jammies watching BYU-TV, settling into my big wingback chair, listening to the beautiful music of the Choir. Nothing was on my mind except the beautiful music... suddenly into my mind and heart came the "still small voice" but spoken clearly and plainly as if someone was standing beside me... "Do not be afraid... the Gospel is correct... stay faithful... stay true." A deep peace filled me as I thanked Heavenly Father for that witness... I think of it often as I participate here...

from the beach on a beautiful morning... GG

Edited July 22, 2013 by Garden Girl

[Questing Beast]

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0

...

The entire article is a good read. What do you think about his concerns? I realize that there is a thread about him but the article puts it all in a nutshell.

"Mormonism is still an adolescent religion", compared to the RCC. How very accurate. "We" need to get over what others, including our own members, think of us, of the Church. Suppression or ignoring or deflecting of any historical information whatsoever is a sign of insecurity or even fear. That mentality comes from the top. Why will things get any better if that continues to come from the top?... Edited July 22, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Questing Beast]

As I said on the other thread, I believe this guy is a big fraud. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

And let's get something straight; this guy was not really a General Authority. He was an area Seventy.

There is a difference.

Pointless quibble. He was a "Seventy", and his candor is attractive as he speaks. He does not appear to be disingenuous in the least. What will you do when the first apostles bail out? There goes the core of your assertion, "he's not a general authority", as if that makes any real difference to what is true or not....

[Duncan]

Pointless quibble. He was a "Seventy", and his candor is attractive as he speaks. He does not appear to be disingenuous in the least. What will you do when the first apostles bail out? There goes the core of your assertion, "he's not a general authority", as if that makes any real difference to what is true or not....

truth is truth and it's true that he wasn't a General Authority, people claim he was, I see it on facebook and other sites.