L D S Membership Numbers

[rodheadlee]

ndup

Edited June 7, 2013 by rodheadlee

[Johnnie Cake]

Is it posible to ask afew questions, request a few answers and suggest accountability without being called to repentance or accused of pot stirring?

Why is it such a sensitive touchy thing to ask simple. questions and accountibility of those in authority over you?

[Avatar4321]

I'm not trying to create an argument...If the general tithing paying membership is happy with the limited and restricted amount of information being shared with them and knowing that only 15 individuals see all of the information and that only 1 person ownes the church…so be it. I don’t have a dog in that fight. All I’m suggesting is that it would be wonderful were the church more open and forthright in providing both financial and membership information.

I couldn't possibly think of donating to a charity organization that didn't make full disclosure of its financial records...

What business do I have with what God does with His money? Should I demand you show me your paycheck and expenditures?

He trusts me with the money I have recieved from Him. I trust Him with His.

Im not donating to a charity organization. Im giving the Lord what He asked for.

[Avatar4321]

How do you separate them? By tithing? I haven't had a paying job in 2 years, by attendance? I haven't been to my home ward in 2 years, We study scripture and pray daily and consider ourselves active members. I'm a Mormon everywhere I go.

I haven't been in a meeting for a few months (Aside from Institute) but I am still Mormon. I study and pray everyday as well. I consider myself active. Why do people assume I need them to take me off the rolls just because circumstances currently prevent me from attending regularly. If i didn't want to be Mormon, I'd take my name off the rolls.

[canard78]

Bit of a tangent, but the stats on LDS.org traffic are interesting.

In 2011 the website was getting 2.5 unique visits per month, 600,000 people accessed the online scriptures per month.

It made me smile that Saturday/Sunday morning are the traffic peaks with 30-35,000/hour. They should call it ldslastminute.com

[Calm]

Bit of a tangent, but the stats on LDS.org traffic are interesting.

In 2011 the website was getting 2.5 unique visits per month, 600,000 people accessed the online scriptures per month.

It made me smile that Saturday/Sunday morning are the traffic peaks with 30-35,000/hour. They should call it ldslastminute.com

Nowadays there is actual video material for lessons online so even those who prepare way ahead must visit lds.org on Sunday. They were asking people in our Stake not to use the internet if they didn't have to during church hours at church so as to allow those who had to access for lessons to do so. Edited June 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[Thinking]

I just looked at the home page of this website and scrolled to the bottom.

"212 users are online (in the past 15 minutes)

14 members, 196 guests, 2 anonymous users"

Anybody who thinks it would be too difficult for the LDS Church to publish more than total membership is underestimating the power of technology.

[Calm]

Anybody who thinks it would be too difficult for the LDS Church to publish more than total membership is underestimating the power of technology.

There are other difficulties involved beyond technical ones.

[Tacenda]

There are other difficulties involved beyond technical ones.

The church does want to look good if we're being honest.

[rodheadlee]

The church does want to look good if we're being honest.

If we're being honest no amount of publishing numbers will satisfy the likes of Johnny Cake and those who want to degrade the Church. From my seat it's a waste of time and resources.

Edited June 8, 2013 by rodheadlee

[Storm Rider]

Cal, If we look at the growth of the Church we have to say that it is quite slow. With 300,000 new members coming in we have little to show for a whole lot of work. No company would devote so much resources for so little return. Regardless, I get so very tired of those few critics that are terrified that the Church appears to be building new buildings and growing. Their sole objective, that broken record that must always be played, is that everyone is running for the doors and no one is home. It does not matter is anyone is in church on Sunday morning, the Church will still plod along and still take the Great Commission seriously enough to send its young people into the world to preach a message of the God's love and continuing desire to talk to his children.

[Storm Rider]

I haven't been in a meeting for a few months (Aside from Institute) but I am still Mormon. I study and pray everyday as well. I consider myself active. Why do people assume I need them to take me off the rolls just because circumstances currently prevent me from attending regularly. If i didn't want to be Mormon, I'd take my name off the rolls.

You list just a few of the problems with trying to implement the exacting standards that some critics demand of the LDS Church. They demand the impossible and it seems so very obvious that the standard they seek makes no sense. Then instead of offering the examples of any organizations asked they plead persecution. As for the JWs, how many hours are worked? How do they know they are worked and are not just reported? What about those that work and don't report accurately? How correctly are numbers reported? How complete are the rolls of each church? Which one's attend for social reasons and which ones attend out of belief? How much do they believe? What concerns do they have? Are they serious concerns or just minor ones? How do we know? How do they know? Who is asking the questions? What privacy issues would be violated by asking the questions?

[canard78]

If we're being honest no amount of publishing numbers will satisfy the likes of Johnny Cake and those who want to degrade the Church. From my seat it's a waste of time and resources.

Resources?

Every branch is recording and reporting average sacrament attendance. It would take no more time and resources to publish this data than it took you the time to reply.

I guarantee that the church is aware of these figure and many more.

Did you experience the initiative a few years ago where statos at COB had identified the 'Key performance indicators' and the feeder indicators to the KPIs. They'd analysed key things like sacrament attendance, tithe payers and temple attendance and then identified the secondary things that correlated like home teaching rates, temple recommends held, primary children attending on Sunday, Prospectice elders going to priesthood meeting.

The church uses, tracks and analyses this data on a regular basis. It would take no extra resources to share something like Sunday attendance.

[rodheadlee]

Resources?

Every branch is recording and reporting average sacrament attendance. It would take no more time and resources to publish this data than it took you the time to reply.

I guarantee that the church is aware of these figure and many more.

Did you experience the initiative a few years ago where statos at COB had identified the 'Key performance indicators' and the feeder indicators to the KPIs. They'd analysed key things like sacrament attendance, tithe payers and temple attendance and then identified the secondary things that correlated like home teaching rates, temple recommends held, primary children attending on Sunday, Prospectice elders going to priesthood meeting.

The church uses, tracks and analyses this data on a regular basis. It would take no extra resources to share something like Sunday attendance.

No I'm sorry the longest I have been at one ward in the last 15 years is 22 months.

[Tacenda]

No I'm sorry the longest I have been at one ward in the last 15 years is 22 months.

You are definitely not the typical mormon out there. Btw, do you believe the church should count deceased members in the total amount of members? I just learned recently that they do.

[Calm]

You are definitely not the typical mormon out there. Btw, do you believe the church should count deceased members in the total amount of members? I just learned recently that they do.

Not intentionally, they only count those who have died that they don't know have died. Do you think they should remove someone from the lists because they might have died? Might be kind of hard on the poor senior who finally gets to church after so many years away, coming home in his/her final days as they come face to face with death, knowing that even if they were long away this is where they belong....only to find out they do not belong anymore but are more or less considered dead and buried prematurely. Edited June 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

You are definitely not the typical mormon out there. Btw, do you believe the church should count deceased members in the total amount of members? I just learned recently that they do.

Sorry Tacenda but I have to do this CFR.

Edited June 8, 2013 by ERayR

[Tacenda]

Sorry Tacenda but I have to do this CFR.

Thanks for the CFR, (can't believe I'm saying that) because it keeps me on my toes. I'd read it from somewhere and can't remember where now. I have mentioned it on here, before fairly recently.

Okay, so I went to this site and on there they have a contact email available, so I asked them point blank and am now waiting for their official response. Thanks for keeping me honest ERayR!

Until then here is the site and the bolded is something to think about, I guess.

http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=contact_us

"Before 1984, the Church released a wider range of data regarding membership, including the number of deacons, teachers, priests, elders, and high priests, the number of living endowments performed, and demographic information, including birth and death rates. Although these statistics did not include data on church attendance, they offered insight into measures more specifically associated with member activity. After 1984, this ancillary data was dropped from annual reports."

[ERayR]

Thanks for the CFR, (can't believe I'm saying that) because it keeps me on my toes. I'd read it from somewhere and can't remember where now. I have mentioned it on here, before fairly recently.

Okay, so I went to this site and on there they have a contact email available, so I asked them point blank and am now waiting for their official response. Thanks for keeping me honest ERayR!

Until then here is the site and the bolded is something to think about, I guess.

http://www.cumorah.c...rget=contact_us

"Before 1984, the Church released a wider range of data regarding membership, including the number of deacons, teachers, priests, elders, and high priests, the number of living endowments performed, and demographic information, including birth and death rates. Although these statistics did not include data on church attendance, they offered insight into measures more specifically associated with member activity. After 1984, this ancillary data was dropped from annual reports."

As ward clerk I am one who every quarter prepares church statistical information. As Calmoriah has said the only dead people that get counted would be those who are not known to be dead. Your statement was very reminiscent of some anti tripe I have heard in the past.

[Kenngo1969]

The church does want to look good if we're being honest.

Maybe, but it cares much, much more about being and doing good (as long as we're being honest! ) Edited June 8, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[cinepro]

How do you separate them? By tithing? I haven't had a paying job in 2 years, by attendance? I haven't been to my home ward in 2 years, We study scripture and pray daily and consider ourselves active members. I'm a Mormon everywhere I go.

The reason some people are interested in a more accurate accounting of Church attendance is because that is a better indicator of the health and growth of the Church. There may be some members such as yourself who don't pay tithing or attend meetings in their "home ward" (for whatever reason) and still consider themselves "active" members, but if needed I suspect the reported numbers will still reflect this. For example, you would still be counted as a "full tithe payer", if that number were to be tracked.

[Analytics]

You list just a few of the problems with trying to implement the exacting standards that some critics demand of the LDS Church. They demand the impossible and it seems so very obvious that the standard they seek makes no sense.

There is an entire department at the Church's headquarters for tracking and reporting the Church's health to the top leadership. Quarterly--if not monthly--this department provides the GA's with a report on the status of the Church's health using the best data and analysis they can. The report is full of data--convert baptisms, temple attendance figures, sacrament meeting attendance, temple recommend counts, tithing revenue, income statements, budgets, etc.

All Churches keep track of these records to some extent, but it's hard to conceive that any church does so with the level of detail and professionalism as the LDS Church.

Most churches make these records open not only to their membership but also to the public at large. Just to prove the point, several years ago I sent an email to Billy Graham, asking for financial statements on his ministry, including how much money he personally makes. They mailed me a glossy report with their latest financial statements. And, I received an email from Graham's personal assistant. She said the statment they mailed me doesn't contain Graham's compensation, but that he made $102,500 in salary plus an additional $95,200 for living expenses, and that he received no other income from any other source (the specific numbers were in that ballpark with that level of specificity, but I don't remember exactly what they were).

It's widely believed in the world of financial reporting that all churches and charities that solicit donations from their membership and from the public ought to be transparent. The Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (Tax ID: 93-0744698, with $2.069M in assets and $2.681 in income) has accredited over 1,700 churches and christian-oriented charities. To be accredited, an organization must provide their detailed financial statements to anybody who asks. They say:

Financial disclosure is not only an accepted, expected, and required form of accountability in society at large, but it also represents the even higher standard of openness for Christian organizations operating in the forum of the Church.

http://www.ecfa.org/Content/Comment5

Of Course the LDS Church doesn't have a legal obligation to meet the "accepted, expected, and required form of accountability in society at large," much less the higher standards to which the ECFA requires of its membership organizations. However, its choice not to meet these standards of transparency raise the question, what is the church hiding?

[ERayR]

Thanks for the CFR, (can't believe I'm saying that) because it keeps me on my toes. I'd read it from somewhere and can't remember where now. I have mentioned it on here, before fairly recently.

Okay, so I went to this site and on there they have a contact email available, so I asked them point blank and am now waiting for their official response. Thanks for keeping me honest ERayR!

Until then here is the site and the bolded is something to think about, I guess.

http://www.cumorah.c...rget=contact_us

"Before 1984, the Church released a wider range of data regarding membership, including the number of deacons, teachers, priests, elders, and high priests, the number of living endowments performed, and demographic information, including birth and death rates. Although these statistics did not include data on church attendance, they offered insight into measures more specifically associated with member activity. After 1984, this ancillary data was dropped from annual reports."

Did you get an answer yet?

[Analytics]

An insightful report would look like this:

Number of members: 14,500,000

Number of lost members: 3,500,000

Actuarial estimate of lost members still alive: 2,900,000

[canard78]

Here's the link to the church website stats:

http://www.mormonmissionprep.com/news/lds-church-websites-traffic-stats/