L D S Membership Numbers

[Storm Rider]

This is one of the areas that critics love to yammer about. There is a constant attack on the membership numbers of the Church and there seems to be a desire that these numbers be far more precise than for any other church or religion. Do you or anyone else know exactly how many "active" Catholics there are in the world. How about how many "active" Muslims in the world. The answer to both questions is NO ONE; not a single person knows because no one knows the answer to either question. Yet, somehow the LDS Church is supposed to dice and cut its membership numbers into members who attend every Sunday without fail; members who attend more than twice a month; those who attend once a month; those who attend more than once every quarter; those who attend more than once every six months; and those who attend more than once a year. Then we need to know of those who attend who actually believes what the Church teaches or are they just cultural LDS. Then we need to know how many members believe; how many don't believe; those who believe some, but not all; those who believe most and those who don't believe very much. This kind of mindless criticism is statistics run amok. Who in bloody blue blazes really cares? The Church is a very small organization in the world, end of story. For our beloved exMos; please just keep your pants on. I wish we did have you on the rolls either, but to tell the truth, we really don't want to exert that much effort to keep you happy. Okay, that was my single rant for today; please continue with your usual broadcast of serious discussion and search for the truth.

[ERayR]

The church is a private corporation sole, owned entirely by one man, Thomas S. Monson, the president of the LDS Church. All stock and assets are his and his alone to direct and do with as he sees fit to do with them.

Only information that he wishes to release will be released…be it membership numbers or financial records. And as long as the actively participating members of the church continue to pay tithing and participate without demanding that this information be release and a more public accounting of church membership and finances be made…nothing will change….since President Monson will have no motivation to change the status quo.

When I see his private 747 and his private fleet of expensive cars I will begin to worry. Until then I will just think of it as a prudent way to tiptoe through governmental laws and regulation.

[canard78]

Baptism by one having authority is that gate and it is indeed narrow but broadened somewhat by vicarious ordinances performed in the temple.

If you reread Matthew 25 he gathers all nations and promises eternal life to all who qualify as sheep through kindness, charity and service. No other qualification.

Now if you insist on an LDS performed baptism our theology already states two things two show that the statement "broadened somewhat" is an understatement.

Tragically, every year 10,000,000+ children under 8 die. These are swept straight up to heaven. No baptism is needed according to Moroni 8:

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

So that's a ratio of 100:1 on little children from mainly Africa/Asia vs Mormons every year. Then there are countless millions in years gobs by. Then think of all the millions more in years gone by. Add to that the millions more of yesterday. Plus billions more who had their work done in the millennium. Mormon theology teaches that everyone will get baptism, or are too young to need it.

[canard78]

And so I agree with you somewhat, except if I have tasted the fruit that is sweetest of all, I should discard it, because others are? Can Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tzu, Veda Vyasa and Mohammad offer me a life of eternity with my wife? Has God given them the authority to seal me to my family? For the past year I've been in 3rd world countries seeking the hungry and helping to feed them so I understand your concern. An interesting thing I noticed when looking for a meeting house on the membership map on the church website is how many wards there are in Guatemala just over the border from Tapachula, Mexico. Yet there are few on the Mexico side. Why do you think that is?

Mormon theology teaches that every one of those Buddhist/Muslim etc couples will be sealed by proxy in the millennium. I'm not sure how, but I guess we'll have 1000 years to figure it out. With all the vegetarianism there'll be little else to do.

Given the theology of work by proxy covers off the question of the eternal covenants we then have to return to the question of why God created a plan where 99.95% of his children are not living life in a Mormon way.

[ERayR]

If you reread Matthew 25 he gathers all nations and promises eternal life to all who qualify as sheep through kindness, charity and service. No other qualification.

Now if you insist on an LDS performed baptism our theology already states two things two show that the statement "broadened somewhat" is an understatement.

Tragically, every year 10,000,000+ children under 8 die. These are swept straight up to heaven. No baptism is needed according to Moroni 8:

So that's a ratio of 100:1 on little children from mainly Africa/Asia vs Mormons every year. Then there are countless millions in years gobs by. Then think of all the millions more in years gone by. Add to that the millions more of yesterday. Plus billions more who had their work done in the millennium. Mormon theology teaches that everyone will get baptism, or are too young to need it.

Yet none other than the Savior himself said ". . . straight is the way and narrow is the gate. . ."

[cinepro]

This is one of the areas that critics love to yammer about. There is a constant attack on the membership numbers of the Church and there seems to be a desire that these numbers be far more precise than for any other church or religion. Do you or anyone else know exactly how many "active" Catholics there are in the world. How about how many "active" Muslims in the world. The answer to both questions is NO ONE; not a single person knows because no one knows the answer to either question.

[yammer]

I'd be thrilled if the LDS Church was at least as clear with the numbers as the Seventh-Day Adventists:

http://www.adventist...ures/index.html

Yeah, that would be awesome.

[/yammer]

Edited June 6, 2013 by cinepro

[ERayR]

[yammer]

I'd be thrilled if the LDS Church was at least as clear with the numbers as the Seventh-Day Adventists:

http://www.adventist...ures/index.html

Yeah, that would be awesome.

[/yammer]

No you wouldn't because then you would have to find something else to complain about.

[canard78]

[yammer]

I'd be thrilled if the LDS Church was at least as clear with the numbers as the Seventh-Day Adventists:

http://www.adventist...ures/index.html

Yeah, that would be awesome.

[/yammer]

Those are some impressively open books.

[canard78]

Yet none other than the Savior himself said ". . . straight is the way and narrow is the gate. . ."

7 billion can go through a gate one by one. What do we do temple work for?

Besides, I'd take the follow-up statement 'few there are' as another of those 'for effect scriptures' - one that is "more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory." (D&C 19:7)

[rodheadlee]

Canard you keep saying the gate is not narrow, yet it is Jesus Christ himself that says so in Matthew 7. I suggest you read the whole chapter to keep the context.I fully agree with the temple work but if there were no LDS Church who would be doing the temple work?

[rodheadlee]

The church is a private corporation ..............

Did you say something? you lost me after the private corp thing.

[Thinking]

This is one of the areas that critics love to yammer about. There is a constant attack on the membership numbers of the Church and there seems to be a desire that these numbers be far more precise than for any other church or religion. Do you or anyone else know exactly how many "active" Catholics there are in the world. How about how many "active" Muslims in the world. The answer to both questions is NO ONE; not a single person knows because no one knows the answer to either question. Yet, somehow the LDS Church is supposed to dice and cut its membership numbers into members who attend every Sunday without fail; members who attend more than twice a month; those who attend once a month; those who attend more than once every quarter; those who attend more than once every six months; and those who attend more than once a year. Then we need to know of those who attend who actually believes what the Church teaches or are they just cultural LDS. Then we need to know how many members believe; how many don't believe; those who believe some, but not all; those who believe most and those who don't believe very much. This kind of mindless criticism is statistics run amok. Who in bloody blue blazes really cares? The Church is a very small organization in the world, end of story. For our beloved exMos; please just keep your pants on. I wish we did have you on the rolls either, but to tell the truth, we really don't want to exert that much effort to keep you happy. Okay, that was my single rant for today; please continue with your usual broadcast of serious discussion and search for the truth.

The reason this topic recycles is the Church frequently publishes its total membership in news articles. If the Church didn't care so much about making sure everybody knows how many people are official members, critics wouldn't care either.

"Stirling and Pacheco will headline the Pioneer Day concert, which is a celebration of the courage of Mormon pioneers who made the historic trek to Salt Lake City in 1847. Today, Salt Lake City is the headquarters of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a global faith with over 14 million members. Both artists are members of the faith." May 30, 2013

"The women joined more than six million women across the globe who gathered to commemorate the anniversary of Relief Society, one of the largest women’s organizations in the world." April 18, 2013

"The president of the more than 14 million-member church was greeted by Idaho and Oregon Latter-day Saints eager to enter the temple since its closure in July 2011 for extensive renovation of the interior, exterior and grounds." November 12, 2012

"In addition to impacting future missionaries, the change, which is effective immediately, will have an impact on many of the other 14.5 million members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, including the tens of thousands of mothers and fathers who will send their children on missions." October 6, 2012

[Johnnie Cake]

This is one of the areas that critics love to yammer about. There is a constant attack on the membership numbers of the Church and there seems to be a desire that these numbers be far more precise than for any other church or religion. Do you or anyone else know exactly how many "active" Catholics there are in the world. How about how many "active" Muslims in the world. The answer to both questions is NO ONE; not a single person knows because no one knows the answer to either question. Yet, somehow the LDS Church is supposed to dice and cut its membership numbers into members who attend every Sunday without fail; members who attend more than twice a month; those who attend once a month; those who attend more than once every quarter; those who attend more than once every six months; and those who attend more than once a year. Then we need to know of those who attend who actually believes what the Church teaches or are they just cultural LDS. Then we need to know how many members believe; how many don't believe; those who believe some, but not all; those who believe most and those who don't believe very much. This kind of mindless criticism is statistics run amok. Who in bloody blue blazes really cares? The Church is a very small organization in the world, end of story. For our beloved exMos; please just keep your pants on. I wish we did have you on the rolls either, but to tell the truth, we really don't want to exert that much effort to keep you happy. Okay, that was my single rant for today; please continue with your usual broadcast of serious discussion and search for the truth.

Nor do those religious organizations in their various forms stand before the public and proclaim a specific membership number. But both growth and numbers are important to Mormonism....wouldn't it be wonderful if that number was a correct indication of active participation?

[canard78]

Canard you keep saying the gate is not narrow, yet it is Jesus Christ himself that says so in Matthew 7. I suggest you read the whole chapter to keep the context.I fully agree with the temple work but if there were no LDS Church who would be doing the temple work?

I didn't say the gate isn't narrow. I consider the gate to be very narrow. One person wide. But many people can pass through a narrow gate when they go through one at a time. Each of us have a personal relationship with God. He brings us through the gate, if we're willing, one relationship at a time.

The chapter is repleat with figurative stories, parables, metaphors. Here are a few:

first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;

what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The gate is a symbol like any other. Different implications and meanings. Baptism is not mentioned in that chapter once. Why should baptism be the only way to go through a gate?

And why is that a chapter full of metaphor is suddenly made literal half way through?

[Storm Rider]

Nor do those religious organizations in their various forms stand before the public and proclaim a specific membership number. But both growth and numbers are important to Mormonism....wouldn't it be wonderful if that number was a correct indication of active participation?

You are saying the Catholic Church does not tout its membership numbers? How about the Southern Baptist Convention? In fact, what church does not report numbers of members? On what earth are you living? This seems like you are straining at gnats and trying to defend why you swallow camels so easily.

[Johnnie Cake]

You are saying the Catholic Church does not tout its membership numbers? How about the Southern Baptist Convention? In fact, what church does not report numbers of members? On what earth are you living? This seems like you are straining at gnats and trying to defend why you swallow camels so easily.

Ummmm...yeah pretty much...Can't even think of the last time a Pope or Cardinal announced to the world catholic membership numbers...I think they kind of leave that stuff to religion sociologists. But the truth is I don't really follow catholic news...so they may very well be announcing these numbers and I'm just not tuned in.

The LDS church however is proud of its growth and makes a statistical report each April in conference...I think that’s great and helpful...nothing wrong with them doing so...and isn't it wonderful to see the church growing in population numbers every years by 200-300,000. But wouldn't it also be helpful to give participation numbers. The information is there already for anyone who wants to dig deeper and crunch the numbers...gross membership is increasing...while units per member are not keeping up the same growth curve.

You're not deneying the pride members take in church growth are you? Would that pride in anyway deminish were the church to release activity rates? Purhaps or purhaps not.

[Calm]

And as long as the actively participating members of the church continue to pay tithing and participate without demanding that this information be release and a more public accounting of church membership and finances be made…nothing will change….

And if the actively participating members are generally happy with the situation, then why should it matter to others or why should others' opinions matter more?

[Storm Rider]

I could not care less what the numbers are; I never listen to that part of conference. So yes, I guess I am denying the interest of members. The news talks more about our growth than the church does anymore. Obviously u and the horde would prefer the church have the #s sliced and diced. This is such a tiresome topic except for our dear departed that cant leave it alone.

[Johnnie Cake]

And if the actively participating members are generally happy with the situation, then why should it matter to others or why should others' opinions matter more?

I'm not trying to create an argument...If the general tithing paying membership is happy with the limited and restricted amount of information being shared with them and knowing that only 15 individuals see all of the information and that only 1 person ownes the church…so be it. I don’t have a dog in that fight. All I’m suggesting is that it would be wonderful were the church more open and forthright in providing both financial and membership information.

I couldn't possibly think of donating to a charity organization that didn't make full disclosure of its financial records...

Edited June 7, 2013 by Johnnie Cake

[ERayR]

I'm not trying to create an argument...If the general tithing paying membership is happy with the limited and restricted amount of information being shared with them and knowing that only 15 individuals see all of the information and that only 1 person ownes the church…so be it. I don’t have a dog in that fight. All I’m suggesting is that it would be wonderful were the church more open and forthright in providing both financial and membership information.

You don't have a dog in the fight but you are more than happy to stir the pot. Such a helpful sort of guy.

[ERayR]

Nor do those religious organizations in their various forms stand before the public and proclaim a specific membership number. But both growth and numbers are important to Mormonism....wouldn't it be wonderful if that number was a correct indication of active participation?

What is not to be happy about? Even with a 30% activity rate that is an increase in those who have become eligible to receive temple covenants.

[Calm]

I couldn't possibly think of donating to a charity organization that didn't make full disclosure of its financial records...

Neither would I, but the Church isn't a charity organization to me.

[Storm Rider]

I'm not trying to create an argument...If the general tithing paying membership is happy with the limited and restricted amount of information being shared with them and knowing that only 15 individuals see all of the information and that only 1 person ownes the church…so be it. I don’t have a dog in that fight. All I’m suggesting is that it would be wonderful were the church more open and forthright in providing both financial and membership information.

I couldn't possibly think of donating to a charity organization that didn't make full disclosure of its financial records...

Utter poppycock. First you state everyone else doesn't do the same thing, then you admit to not knowing what other churches do, but your standard for the LDS Church is put higher than for every other religion. Physician, heal thyself and remove the beam from your own eyes. Then you pull out the old men in complete control of the church; no one prepares the numbers, just those old coots at the top. You don't have much of an ax to grind do you. Please provide a single example of any organization that dissects membership numbers like you demand. Evangelicals don't, not even Exmos don't. Who does?

[omni]

Please provide a single example of any organization that dissects membership numbers like you demand. Evangelicals don't, not even Exmos don't. Who does?

I would say that most churches report all members on the roles for the obvious reason of that it looks better. That being said, I do believe that Seventh Day Adventists only report practicing members and that JWs only report members who have attended for a certain period of time and do missionary work. Someone with more info and correct me if I'm wrong.

[rodheadlee]

I would say that most churches report all members on the roles for the obvious reason of that it looks better. That being said, I do believe that Seventh Day Adventists only report practicing members and that JWs only report members who have attended for a certain period of time and do missionary work. Someone with more info and correct me if I'm wrong.

How do you separate them? By tithing? I haven't had a paying job in 2 years, by attendance? I haven't been to my home ward in 2 years, We study scripture and pray daily and consider ourselves active members. I'm a Mormon everywhere I go.