Wrestling With Polyandry

[Calm]

I suspect that it has some to do with the fact that our culture has reduced sex to its basest form.

And if not "basest" has isolated sex from other components of relationship thus depriving it of depth and meaning and anything of longterm significance (unless one gets pregnant or gets a STD...though the emotional significance of engaging in unconnected sexual encounters likely correlates to emotional and mental dysfunctions so even in attempting to isolate it, it becomes an pervasive influence on one).

[Calm]

Polygamy took and would continue to take away that opportunity from many righteous priesthood holders.

Only if one assumes a limited number of men and women in existence. If one assumes the creation of spirit and physical children of God is never ending, then that opportunity eventually exists for any who desire it (and if one assumes time is not what it appears to be to us mortals, that opportunity may not even be delayed as we understand such things).

And CFR that there was ever a righteous priesthood holder who desired eternal marriage that was not able to have it in some fashion even in this lifetime due to there not being enough righteous women available for him to be sealed to....

Edited June 13, 2013 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

I'm not going to play your games.

Well that is one way to bow out gracefully. Have a nice day.

[ERayR]

But if there will be polygamy in the celestial kingdom as an eternal law statistics make two simple assumptions: (1) there will be more women than men so sharing of a husband will be needed. (2) Male:Female ratio will be equal so some men will have to 'go without' a wife so others may have 2, 3 or 33. Or perhaps we'll bring back polyandry so some wives are shared between two husbands. Joseph and Brigham seemed ok with this.

Given people who were Mormons in this life will be out-numbered at least 1000:1 by pre-8yos making observations about the skew of single sisters in your particular unit is simply a drop in an ocean.

Take your pick. You will be as right as anybody else until more is revealed on the subject. By the way I don't accept those as the only two alternatives.

[why me]

Why do you see the testimonies of JS's wives as faith affirming, but not the thousands of current polygamous wives who have also received spiritual confirmations of their marriages? How large does a church have to be before it's true?

I have no idea about the thousands of other polygamists today who have had spiritual experiences about the principle of plural marriage. However, what I do know are the spiritual experiences of some of the wives of Joseph Smith after they prayed about the principle. Also, since the lds church has abolished polygamy, I would tend to doubt such current day testimonies. It becomes a matter of faith and the ability to see the big picture: in the lds church, polygamy just doesn't stand alone. It stands with all the other happenings that have been claimed: 11 witnesses to the book of mormon, spiritual visitations, the book of mormon, the revelation on the 3 degrees of glory and what took place during that revelation etc. The polygamous wives and their spiritual experiences do not stand alone. They are all apart of a greater and bigger picture that is the church.

Edited June 13, 2013 by why me

[why me]

How is Zina's spiritual witness or yours more valid than theirs.

See above.

Edited June 13, 2013 by why me

[ERayR]

But they would say you're wrong as you haven't had the spiritual witness they have had. How is Zina's spiritual witness or yours more valid than theirs.

For Zina hers is more valid for her than anyone elses. For me mine is more valid. For others theirs is more valid for them. You see witnesses are not a one size fits all.

[canard78]

Take your pick. You will be as right as anybody else until more is revealed on the subject. By the way I don't accept those as the only two alternatives.

So the third or fourth alternative is?

[omni]

And CFR that there was ever a righteous priesthood holder who desired eternal marriage that was not able to have it in some fashion even in this lifetime due to there not being enough righteous women available for him to be sealed to....

I don't have a specific example, but it's simple mathematics. We know as scientific fact that men and women are born in roughly equal amounts. If a man is sealed to ten wives than that means that nine other men in that relatively small population would not be able to get sealed. We have seen the results of this in the FLDS community as they've had to kick out many of the young men who were not able to find wives. Now I guess HF could create more women spirits which would allow these men to be sealed in heaven, but why deny them those blessings here on Earth?

[ERayR]

So the third or fourth alternative is?

For another see calmoria's post # 352

[ERayR]

I don't have a specific example, but it's simple mathematics. We know as scientific fact that men and women are born in roughly equal amounts. If a man is sealed to ten wives than that means that nine other men in that relatively small population would not be able to get sealed. We have seen the results of this in the FLDS community as they've had to kick out many of the young men who were not able to find wives. Now I guess HF could create more women spirits which would allow these men to be sealed in heaven, but why deny them those blessings here on Earth?

Your assumptions can only be shown to be valid in a limited population. You can no way be sure they are valid over the this creation and then you have to add in continuing creations of which we know nothing about so will have to say again that your assumptions can not be shown to be valid so they have skewed your conclusions.

Edited June 14, 2013 by ERayR

[canard78]

Only if one assumes a limited number of men and women in existence. If one assumes the creation of spirit and physical children of God is never ending, then that opportunity eventually exists for any who desire it (and if one assumes time is not what it appears to be to us mortals, that opportunity may not even be delayed as we understand such things).

Wait so you're suggesting that in order for us to be able be polygamous there will be extra women created who were not part of the mortal process here?

We're going to get to marry aliens? Awesome

(Adds Seven Of Nine to wishlist)

[Calm]

Wait so you're suggesting that in order for us to be able be polygamous there will be extra women created who were not part of the mortal process here?

We're going to get to marry aliens? Awesome

(Adds Seven Of Nine to wishlist)

Why not? I can think a few alien races that produce a fine male as well.

Seven of Nine was a human child kidnapped by the Borg when she was young, IIRC.

Edited June 14, 2013 by calmoriah

[canard78]

Why not? I can think a few alien races that produce a fine male as well.

Seven of Nine was a human child kidnapped by the Borg when she was young, IIRC.

You're attention to detail is a credit to you... and my dreams are dashed.

[mfbukowski]

Polygamy took and would continue to take away that opportunity from many righteous priesthood holders.

Nope.

One wife is good enough for me, and I still have a shot at the CK. What is required is being sealed- NOT being polygamous.

[cdowis]

I don't have a specific example, but it's simple mathematics. We know as scientific fact that men and women are born in roughly equal amounts. If a man is sealed to ten wives than that means that nine other men in that relatively small population would not be able to get sealed.

I don't know even where to begin with this.

1. You are assuming that this statistic holds up regarding active members of the church. I think you will find that is not the case.

2. Single righteous men do not have the same promise as women when it comes to having a mate in the next life, if they neglect their duty. Those righteous single women have the opportunity to have a mate in the next life.

Finally, I find it significant that a single woman can go on a mission regardless of age (after age 19), and an older single man cannot.

Edited June 14, 2013 by cdowis

[cdowis]

dup

Edited June 14, 2013 by cdowis

[thesometimesaint]

I don't know even where to begin with this.

1. You are assuming that this statistic holds up regarding active members of the church. I think you will find that is not the case.

2. Single righteous men do not have the same promise as women when it comes to having a mate in the next life, if they neglect their duty. Those righteous single women have the opportunity to have a mate in the next life.

Finally, I find it significant that a single woman can go on a mission regardless of age (after age 19), and an older single man cannot.

105 males are born for every 100 females. But females quickly catch up in numbers. Would your assumption then mandate that women will predominate in the CK?

Single righteous men have exactly the same promise as single righteous women. Single righteous men whom get told No are in the same position as single righteous women who are never asked.

I find it not so significant righteously as a cultural expectation.

[Calm]

2. Single righteous men do not have the same promise as women when it comes to having a mate in the next life, if they neglect their duty. Those righteous single women have the opportunity to have a mate in the next life.

Single righteous women who neglect their duty probably have the same level of promise as any single righteous man who neglects theirs.

[tagriffy]

105 males are born for every 100 females. But females quickly catch up in numbers. Would your assumption then mandate that women will predominate in the CK?

Single righteous men have exactly the same promise as single righteous women. Single righteous men whom get told No are in the same position as single righteous women who are never asked.

I find it not so significant righteously as a cultural expectation.

Shall we add to the problem? Females catch up in the numbers because boys are more likely to die before reaching adulthood. And the 105 to the 100 ratio doesn't seem like much a difference when living in the here and now, but when we are talking about billions or even trillions of people in the hereafter, it will add up.

[Sleeper Cell]

I don't have a specific example, but it's simple mathematics. We know as scientific fact that men and women are born in roughly equal amounts. If a man is sealed to ten wives than that means that nine other men in that relatively small population would not be able to get sealed. We have seen the results of this in the FLDS community as they've had to kick out many of the young men who were not able to find wives. Now I guess HF could create more women spirits which would allow these men to be sealed in heaven, but why deny them those blessings here on Earth?

Simple mathematics is a useful analytical tool, only to the extent that you have sufficient data and don’t make incorrect assumptions.

It is interesting that you use the 21^st century FLDS community, rather than the 19^th century LDS community to support your point. Is there any evidence that, in the 19^th century, many of the young men in the LDS community were not able to find wives? I am certainly unaware of any instances of mass expulsions of young men from the mainstream LDS community. IIRC, Brigham Young went out of his way to encourage young men to get married..

Now I guess HF could create more women spirits which would allow these men to be sealed in heaven, but why deny them those blessings here on Earth?

Why would they have to be denied the blessings of mortality? They could be born during the millennium. Why assume that just because men and women are now born in roughly equal numbers (actually slightly more males than females) that this will continue into the millennium (or that we had more sisters than brothers in our pre-mortal life or that the rebellious third weren’t predominately males)?

I predict (without the slightest bit of scriptural support or other evidence, of course) that far more females than males will be born during the millennium, thus providing enough women for every worthy man to enter into polygamy, should he desire to do so. Perhaps that is one reason it is called the millennium.

I also predict that in the “pre-Adamites?“ thread, someone will cite my last comment as proof positive of the survival of a significant amount of pre-Adamite DNA -- at least in one male genetic line.

[canard78]

I don't know even where to begin with this.

1. You are assuming that this statistic holds up regarding active members of the church. I think you will find that is not the case.

2. Single righteous men do not have the same promise as women when it comes to having a mate in the next life, if they neglect their duty. Those righteous single women have the opportunity to have a mate in the next life.

Finally, I find it significant that a single woman can go on a mission regardless of age (after age 19), and an older single man cannot.

1. To base the profile of people qualifying for celestial kingdom on the number of observed active male:female ratio is to miss a few key points of the eternal plan. For example, what happens to children who die before 8 (answer is in Moroni 8 or King Follett)? Since the church was established 183 years ago there may have been over a billion children who have died before 8. If we role back 6,000 years it's even higher. In the last few years, new members (converts/COR) have been outstripped 250:1 by children who died before 8. If we consider the retention rate then that drops to about 500:1.

Given there is a natural skew towards male in the birth rate we'll be getting lots and lots of resurrected men (who died in infancy) who need a bride. The Mormons who 'stayed faithful' in this life will be a drop in the ocean.

2. CFR

[canard78]

Why would they have to be denied the blessings of mortality? They could be born during the millennium. Why assume that just because men and women are now born in roughly equal numbers (actually slightly more males than females) that this will continue into the millennium (or that we had more sisters than brothers in our pre-mortal life or that the rebellious third weren’t predominately males)?

I predict (without the slightest bit of scriptural support or other evidence, of course) that far more females than males will be born during the millennium, thus providing enough women for every worthy man to enter into polygamy, should he desire to do so. Perhaps that is one reason it is called the millennium.

If this the sort of mental contortion needed to make polygamy work in the eternities then I for one reach a far more simple conclusion.

The notion that extra females have been created and reserved for the millennium to act as some distorted 'wife farm' for every righteous man who "desires to do so" is a little unusual.

Maybe we should add it to Preach my Gospel and see how it goes down.

[Glenn101]

If this the sort of mental contortion needed to make polygamy work in the eternities then I for one reach a far more simple conclusion.

The notion that extra females have been created and reserved for the millennium to act as some distorted 'wife farm' for every righteous man who "desires to do so" is a little unusual.

Maybe we should add it to Preach my Gospel and see how it goes down.

Seems we are wrestling more than with just "polyandry" right now.

Glenn

[omni]

Okay, since there seems to be some confusion on why polygamy doesn't work on even a practical manner let me explain. We know that a temple marriage is required in order to be exalted. This from LDS.org:

"To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. People who are not married in the temple may live in other parts of the celestial kingdom, but they will not be exalted."

We also know that polygamy wasn't just allowed, but commanded.

“Damnation was the awful penalty affixed to a refusal to obey this law [polygamy]. It became an acknowledged doctrine of the Church; it was indissolubly interwoven in the minds of its members with their hopes of eternal salvation and exaltation in the presence of God...”

- Millennial Star, v. 47, p. 711

“The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 11, p. 269

I don't have the exact numbers, but to make the math easy let's say there were 10,000 eligible (worthy LDS members) women and 10,000 eligible men. If half (5,000) of the men did what they were commanded to do and married the bare minimum of two women, then all of the eligible women would then be married leaving 5,000 men unable to be sealed, and therefore unable to reach exaltation.

Now it's been suggested by a few on here that perhaps HF will create more female spirits in order to correct this imbalance allowing those men whoso choose to be polygamists. First of all I would kindly request a CFR, second of all as Canard alluded to that's just offensive to women. Not only that, but it still denies the blessings of marriage to those men in this life. Why would HF create a commandment required for exaltation that he knows would be numerically impossible for most men to keep?