Brad Wilcox'S View On Grace

[danielwoods]

@

teddyaware

First, what I said in response:

“danielwoods, on 15 May 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Let’s look at this passage. (copied with your comments)

Rev.3:15 “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth (an absense of living works in the lives of the saints is very distasteful to God).


Note, your comment is focusing on the word “works”. It’s the only place in this passage where it’s mentioned. However, there is no such thing as “living works” that is not in the passage. What is in the passage though is an emphasis on relationship to God. Notice the wording, “lukewarm, neither cold or hot”. What is it we say when we are madly in love with someone? We are certainly not lukewarm are we? We don’t use this language when talking about works though, curious, huh? Like, “dude that job you did was so hot!” Actually, works are either correctly done, as in “good job” or not. What is a lukewarm work? What it has to be referencing is relationship to God.”

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Then you repeated what I said, saying it was polemical equivalent to a hanging curve ball:

“And so I begin:

Daniel's line 1) "Note, your comment is focusing on the word “works”. It’s the only place in this passage where it’s mentioned."

Ted's response: Must confess I was somewhat astonished at this line, as in my humble opinion it is so weak that it seems to be the polemical equivalent to a hanging curve ball. To understand how I preceive the weakness of this point, please consider with great care the following words of the Lord.

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Here’s my response.

I pointed out that you focused on one word out of the whole passage, whose emphasis was on relationship not works. Instead of defending your focus on works, and not just that but an unjustified addition of the modifier “living” works. You quote the born again passage as a way to say that it’s a weak point. If it truly is a hanging curve ball then smack it out of the park!

However, the point stands, that the Laodicean passage is about relationship not works. Your lack of a defense of what you stated about “living works” and no response to the emphasis placed in that passage about “supping with me” is an indication that possibly your goal is not about reading what the holy script actually says.

Edited May 16, 2013 by danielwoods

[teddyaware]

@

teddyaware

First, what I said in response:

“danielwoods, on 15 May 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Let’s look at this passage. (copied with your comments)

Rev.3:15 “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth (an absense of living works in the lives of the saints is very distasteful to God).


Note, your comment is focusing on the word “works”. It’s the only place in this passage where it’s mentioned. However, there is no such thing as “living works” that is not in the passage. What is in the passage though is an emphasis on relationship to God. Notice the wording, “lukewarm, neither cold or hot”. What is it we say when we are madly in love with someone? We are certainly not lukewarm are we? We don’t use this language when talking about works though, curious, huh? Like, “dude that job you did was so hot!” Actually, works are either correctly done, as in “good job” or not. What is a lukewarm work? What it has to be referencing is relationship to God.”

----------------------------------------

Then you repeated what I said, saying it was polemical equivalent to a hanging curve ball:

“And so I begin:

Daniel's line 1) "Note, your comment is focusing on the word “works”. It’s the only place in this passage where it’s mentioned."

Ted's response: Must confess I was somewhat astonished at this line, as in my humble opinion it is so weak that it seems to be the polemical equivalent to a hanging curve ball. To understand how I preceive the weakness of this point, please consider with great care the following words of the Lord.

------------------------------------------

Here’s my response.

I pointed out that you focused on one word out of the whole passage, whose emphasis was on relationship not works. Instead of defending your focus on works, and not just that but an unjustified addition of the modifier “living” works. You quote the born again passage as a way to say that it’s a weak point. If it truly is a hanging curve ball then smack it out of the park!

However, the point stands, that the Laodicean passage is about relationship not works. Your lack of a defense of what you stated about “living works” and no response to the emphasis placed in that passage about “supping with me” is an indication that possibly your goal is not about reading what the holy script actually says.

You're getting a little ahead of things by focusing on my "living works" comment -- we'll get to that when we move on to the next line. As I said in my previous post, the line of yours I'd like to focus on first is the following one:

"Note, your comment is focusing on the word “works”. It’s the only place in this passage where it’s mentioned."

I consider the above two sentences to be the first line for our discussion, because when they are taken together they form a more complete thought. Let's ride the rhetorical wave generated by this line first before moving on to the next. Like I said, this exercise is going to be painstaking and methodical, but the rewards should be well worth the effort.

For convenience in dialogue, I now repost the passage from the Book of Revelation under discussion:

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:15)

Hopefully, for clarity and a proper point of reference in understanding how the Lord is using the word "works" in the above passage, let's examine how he uses the same word in the admonitions given to churches in Sardis and Thyatira in the same Book of Revelation:

1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.(Rev 3)

.............

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. (Rev 2)...

Before analyzing how the Lord uses the word "works" in the above scriptural references, I have a question for you: If in my original post I had used either one of these two references from Revelation -- wherein the word "works" is used twice -- would you kindly demonstrate for me how you might have modified your first two sentences? [for your convenience I post them below]

"Note, your comment is focusing on the word “works”. It’s the only place in this passage where it’s mentioned."

Edited May 17, 2013 by teddyaware

[Lightbearer]

False. I didn’t say that, and don’t believe that. Of course the one thing that God has given us is freedom to choose him or not. It is that freedom that gives meaning to our relationship with him.

Is not that implied? If after all, if God is the one that "does the works" for us and when we do any unrighteous thing then does that not imply that we cannot fall. I mean if after we are "saved" can we sin? Or rather break the commandments? Or do we have a get out of hell free card? Or are you saying you are perfect after being "saved"? If so then if we do anything that could be called a sin who is doing the works? What I am saying is as long as we have the freedom to choose, we do have the freedom to fall from grace. That is where the commandments come in, if we decided to sin or break a commandment then we would no longer be saved... unless we repented of the thing that we did.

First the question about repentance being an attitude, first you agree, then disagree. Which is it?

I would argue that it is God who judges and sees the heart, not us. So for us to state that there is no change on the inside because there is not enough of a change (according to your arbitrary standard, whatever that may be) is false.

The James passage isn’t talking about salvation. Rather what is called sactification, the process whereby we let the spirit transform our lives.

Repentance is about both an attitude and action. The attitude part comes when we recognize that we have sinned, and that we have a godly sorrow for offending God. Then we confess and ask God for forgiveness. Then we forsake the sin or as Jesus told the woman taken in adultery to "go and sin no more" that was a condition of forgiveness.

So repentance is far more than an attitude, but it is a living action that really effects our lives. Also of course God judges the heart, in fact He judges our thoughts, and our actions. The passage in James is talking about practical application, "we must be doers and not hearers only" Sanctification is what cleanses of the effects of sin and it is directly related to our faith in Christ or repentance from sin and our keeping the covenant we make at baptism. The Holy Ghost is the one who sanctifies us and lets us know if we are forgiven.Thus we can go from "grace to grace" untill we reach the "perfect day" and that day I might add can be after we pass from this life into the spirit world.

Notice that the scripture you quoted doesn’t say, “they that have kept the commandments…” Rather it says they that have “done good.”

What is the greatest thing we can do “good” in this life? (Hint the greatest commandment) Love God. Which is a description of a relationship with God, not “doing commandments” as you appear to be implying.

What commandments do you think I am talking about? I am not talking about the Law of Moses (that is who Paul was talking to and the reason for his emphasis on grace in his writings) Lets take a look at the 10 commandments:

"For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (New Testament | Romans 13:9-14)

Sounds like Paul is teaching the Romans to keep the 10 commandments just saying it in a different way. I submit that the other commandments are encompassed in loving thy neighbor and loving the Lord our God.

I would also submit that keeping these commandments is DOING GOOD! Doing evil would be the opposite. If you think the New Testament does not say we must keep the commandments then you have a warped view of the scriptures.

Oh and if you want a quote about keeping the commandments how about this one?

" ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (New Testament | Matthew 19:16-21)

Now how can we follow Jesus save we be willinng to keep His commandments? Did Jesus tell the rich man the truth? Is keeping the commandments important?

First, the passage you are quoting is a reference to the Great White Throne Judgement, not a judgement of believers, but unbelievers. So, he’s not judging us, but non-believers.

The final statement, which you didn’t include says, “15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

The question then is how does one get their name written into the book of life? I would contend it’s by personally knowing and having a relationship with the author directly, based on other passages. If one doesn’t have a relationship, then he judges them based on their “works” as seen in this passage.

So are you saying that one cannot have a relationship with Christ and also believe that keeping the commandments are essential to salvation? First off, by relationship, what do you mean? What I am mean is a covenant relationship that we take upon ourselves the name of Christ at baptism. That is the only type of relationship that is valid, as we keep that covenant we become HIs sons and daughters and have the Holy Ghost to be our guilde. Jesus gave this great commission to His disciples:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."(New Testament | Matthew 28:19-20)

The book of Mark puts it this way:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."(New Testament | Mark 16:15-16)

So baptism is a work that must be done to be saved. We LDS believe in modern revelation we believe that God still speaks and that He still gives us commandments and the authority to perform these saving ordinances just as He did the apostles of old. Our relationship is one of revelation and that He has revealed His covenant anew in this dispensation of time

No where have I said that we are but divine puppets.

The continual “striving” to achieve something so we can follow him, I disagree is a NT principle. It is similar to the Jewish Christians thinking that the Gentiles had to do something to become followers of God. (Acts 15) The thinking was that the Gentiles weren’t fully saved until they also followed the commands of Moses too. And Peter made this interesting statement.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”

That is all. Through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, no more keeping commandments that have the appearance of righteousness, but rely on the arm of the flesh, which no one can keep anyway. It's really quite plain and simple.

Are you not guilty of accusing the LDS of keeping commandments that "have the appearance of righteousness"? Why can no one keep the commandments? Did God make a mistake in revealing the 10 commandments to Moses? Was he a false prophet? I do not believe so, the Law of Moses was a lesser law a school master to bring Israel to Christ, but on the whole it was not mixed with faith. They had looked "beyond the mark" and had apostatized from the Law of Moses, that is why they could not see the kingdom of God when it arrived. The Law (or rather scripture) had become God to them. They had no more prophets until John came preaching repentance and baptism to them. Paul was warning the Saints, the members of the church from adopting the religion of the Jews which had become a dead tree. He wanted to confound those who tried to impose the apostate Judism on the Church. He was not condemning the commandments or the need to keep them, he was stressing the importance of the first great principle of the Gospel and that was Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Which by the way is the 1st principle of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ (aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) we do believe in keeping the commandments of God but we also know that without the atonement of Christ all mankind would be damned. So please do not try to compare us to the apostate Jews who crucified our Lord.

I can tell from your posts that you cannot see the LDS point of view any more than I can understand yours. We may have to just agree to disagree.

[teddyaware]

Is not that implied? If after all, if God is the one that "does the works" for us and when we do any unrighteous thing then does that not imply that we cannot fall. I mean if after we are "saved" can we sin? Or rather break the commandments? Or do we have a get out of hell free card? Or are you saying you are perfect after being "saved"? If so then if we do anything that could be called a sin who is doing the works? What I am saying is as long as we have the freedom to choose, we do have the freedom to fall from grace. That is where the commandments come in, if we decided to sin or break a commandment then we would no longer be saved... unless we repented of the thing that we did.

Repentance is about both an attitude and action. The attitude part comes when we recognize that we have sinned, and that we have a godly sorrow for offending God. Then we confess and ask God for forgiveness. Then we forsake the sin or as Jesus told the woman taken in adultery to "go and sin no more" that was a condition of forgiveness.

So repentance is far more than an attitude, but it is a living action that really effects our lives. Also of course God judges the heart, in fact He judges our thoughts, and our actions. The passage in James is talking about practical application, "we must be doers and not hearers only" Sanctification is what cleanses of the effects of sin and it is directly related to our faith in Christ or repentance from sin and our keeping the covenant we make at baptism. The Holy Ghost is the one who sanctifies us and lets us know if we are forgiven.Thus we can go from "grace to grace" untill we reach the "perfect day" and that day I might add can be after we pass from this life into the spirit world.

What commandments do you think I am talking about? I am not talking about the Law of Moses (that is who Paul was talking to and the reason for his emphasis on grace in his writings) Lets take a look at the 10 commandments:

Sounds like Paul is teaching the Romans to keep the 10 commandments just saying it in a different way. I submit that the other commandments are encompassed in loving thy neighbor and loving the Lord our God.

I would also submit that keeping these commandments is DOING GOOD! Doing evil would be the opposite. If you think the New Testament does not say we must keep the commandments then you have a warped view of the scriptures.

Oh and if you want a quote about keeping the commandments how about this one?

Now how can we follow Jesus save we be willinng to keep His commandments? Did Jesus tell the rich man the truth? Is keeping the commandments important?

So are you saying that one cannot have a relationship with Christ and also believe that keeping the commandments are essential to salvation? First off, by relationship, what do you mean? What I am mean is a covenant relationship that we take upon ourselves the name of Christ at baptism. That is the only type of relationship that is valid, as we keep that covenant we become HIs sons and daughters and have the Holy Ghost to be our guilde. Jesus gave this great commission to His disciples:

The book of Mark puts it this way:

So baptism is a work that must be done to be saved. We LDS believe in modern revelation we believe that God still speaks and that He still gives us commandments and the authority to perform these saving ordinances just as He did the apostles of old. Our relationship is one of revelation and that He has revealed His covenant anew in this dispensation of time

Are you not guilty of accusing the LDS of keeping commandments that "have the appearance of righteousness"? Why can no one keep the commandments? Did God make a mistake in revealing the 10 commandments to Moses? Was he a false prophet? I do not believe so, the Law of Moses was a lesser law a school master to bring Israel to Christ, but on the whole it was not mixed with faith. They had looked "beyond the mark" and had apostatized from the Law of Moses, that is why they could not see the kingdom of God when it arrived. The Law (or rather scripture) had become God to them. They had no more prophets until John came preaching repentance and baptism to them. Paul was warning the Saints, the members of the church from adopting the religion of the Jews which had become a dead tree. He wanted to confound those who tried to impose the apostate Judism on the Church. He was not condemning the commandments or the need to keep them, he was stressing the importance of the first great principle of the Gospel and that was Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Which by the way is the 1st principle of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ (aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) we do believe in keeping the commandments of God but we also know that without the atonement of Christ all mankind would be damned. So please do not try to compare us to the apostate Jews who crucified our Lord.

I can tell from your posts that you cannot see the LDS point of view any more than I can understand yours. We may have to just agree to disagree.

Very good analysis! I think the problem we have when dealing with folks who believe this way is that they enamoured with the idea that they don't have to do anything in order to be saved, other than to believe in God -- while also feeling and professing a stong and passionate personal love for Him. But isn't merely developing a feeling of love for God an action, a form of work?

But love is a verb as well as a noun; an action as well as an emotion. I would imagine that those who adhere to this doctrine (i.e. those who are "truly saved") must be veritable whirlwinds of love and constant service to their fellow man. Why? Because according to the Lord, one cannot genuinely love God without also having an equal desire to love and serve one's fellow man.

So in the end the practioners of this doctrine must be diligently keeping all the commandments of God by default. Not because they are consciously trying to keep the commandments, but because they have such an overwhelming love for God that their love spills over copiously onto their fellow man -- they are just doing what comes naturally. Remember, "love is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 3:10)

But what happens if a practioner of this doctrine continues to sin and fails to diligently serve their fellow man in love? Wouldn't this naturally cause one to question just how sincere and genuine that love of God is, and whether or not that individual is truly saved? "By their fruits ye shall know them."

Edited May 17, 2013 by teddyaware

[DBMormon]

This was some info on Grace I had in my email. It may or may not be pertinent

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http://lds.org/ensig...-works?lang=eng

http://lds.org/study...tation?lang=eng

Exhaltation tells us to turn to another page - eternal life

http://lds.org/study...l-life?lang=eng

Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God's presence and to continue as families (see D&C 131:1–4). Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3). Not just obdience - Obdience to a particular group of items - Laws and ordinances of the Gospel. The ordianance does not state here that it saves us. The Obedience to the directive to do it does. In other words we are not saved by the laws and ordinances but by obedience to the laws and ordinances. God is teaching us covenants, and obedience not the outward actions that signify this inward change. What God wants is not temple ordianances (though he sets those as mandatory covenants we make along the way to give defining moments where our inward spritual change can be reflected in outward action) - he wants his children to change to be like him.

When we are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, we enter the path that leads to eternal life. The prophet Nephi taught:

“The gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

”And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive“ (2 Nephi 31:17-18).

Nephi emphasized that after we have entered this ”strait and narrow path,“ we must endure to the end in faith:

”After ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

“Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life” (2 Nephi 31:19-20).

After we are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, much of our progress toward eternal life depends on our receiving other ordinances of salvation: for men, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood; for men and women, the temple endowment and marriage sealing. When we receive these ordinances and keep the covenants that accompany them, we prepare ourselves to inherit eternal life.

See also Atonement of Jesus Christ; Grace; Kingdoms of Glory

—See True to the Faith (2004), 52-53

In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act performed by the authority of the priesthood. Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord.

Ordinances do not save us, they are essential, in that they are action oriented expressions that give us a point in which that marks our obdience or yielding our hearts to god.

Do the Latter-day Saints believe that salvation comes through their own works rather than by the grace of Christ? Are they "saved" Christians?

The theological debate over whether we are saved by grace or by works is a fruitless argument that is much "like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary" (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, p. 129). Latter-day Saints have often been critical of those who stress salvation by grace alone, and we have often been criticized for a type of works-

righteousness. The gospel is in fact a gospel covenant--a two-way promise. The Lord agrees to do for us what we could never do for ourselves--to forgive our sins, to lift our burdens, to renew our souls and re-create our nature, to raise us from the dead and qualify us for glory hereafter. At the same time, we promise to do what we can do--receive the ordinances of salvation, love and serve one another (see Mosiah 18:8­10), and do all in our power to put off the natural man and deny ourselves of ungodliness (see Mosiah 3:19, Moroni 10:32).

We believe that more is required of men and women than a verbal expression of faith in the Lord, more than a confession with the lips that we have received Christ into our hearts. The scriptures of the Restoration add perspective and balance to the majestic teachings of the apostle Paul on the matter of salvation by grace. We know, without question, that the power to save us, to change us, to renew our souls, is in Christ. True faith, however, always manifests itself in faithfulness. Good works evidence our faith and our desire to remain in covenant with Christ, but they are not sufficient. (See Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965­73], 2:499­500; and Dallin H. Oaks, CR, October 1988, p. 78). The real question is not whether I am saved by grace or by works but rather, In whom do I trust? On whom do I rely? (See 1 Nephi 10:6; 2 Nephi 2:8, 31:19; Moroni 6:4.)

Too often we are prone to view grace as that increment of goodness, that final gift of God that will make up the difference and thereby boost us into the celestial kingdom, "after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). To be sure, we will need a full measure of divine assistance to become celestial material. But the grace of God, through Jesus Christ our Lord, is available to us every hour of every day of our lives. "True grace," as one non-LDS writer has suggested, "is more than just a giant freebie, opening the door to heaven in the sweet by and by, but leaving us to wallow in sin in the bitter here and now. Grace is God presently at work in our lives" (John F. MacArthur, Jr., Faith Works: The Gospel According to the Apostles [Dallas: Word Publishing, 1993], p. 32). The grace of God is a precious gift, an enabling power to face life with quiet courage, to do things we could never do on our own. The Great Physician does more than forgive sins. He ministers relief to the disconsolate, comfort to the bereaved, confidence to those who wrestle with infirmities and feelings of inadequacy, and strength and peace to those who have been battered and scarred by the ironies of this life (see Isaiah 61:1­2, Alma 7:11­13).

Few things would be more serious than encouraging lip service to God but discouraging obedience and faithful discipleship. On the other hand, surely nothing could be more offensive to God than a smug self-assurance that comes from trusting in one's own works or relying upon one's own strength. Understanding this sacred principle--the relationship between the grace of an infinite Being and the works of finite man--is not easy, but it is immensely rewarding. The more we learn to trust the Lord and rely upon his merits and mercy, the less anxious we become about life here and hereafter. "Thus if you have really handed yourself over to Him," C. S. Lewis wisely remarked, "it must follow that you are trying to obey Him. But trying in a new way, a less worried way" (Lewis, Mere Christianity, p. 129).

Are we then "saved Christians"? Whereas the ultimate blessings of salvation do not come until the next life, there is a sense in which people in this life may enjoy the assurance of salvation and the peace that accompanies that knowledge (see D&C 59:23). True faith in Christ produces hope in Christ--not worldly wishing but expectation, anticipation, assurance. As the apostle Paul wrote, the Holy Spirit provides the "earnest of our inheritance," the promise or evidence that we are on course, in covenant, and thus in line for full salvation in the world to come (Ephesians 1:13­14; see 2 Corinthians 1:21­22, 5:5). That is, the Spirit of God operating in our lives is like the Lord's "earnest money" on us--his sweet certification that he seriously intends to save us with an everlasting salvation. Thus, if we are striving to cultivate the gift of the Holy Ghost, we are living in what might be called a "saved" condition.

One of the most respected Evangelical theologians, John Stott, has written:

Salvation is a big and comprehensive word. It embraces the totality of God's saving work, from beginning to end. In fact salvation has three tenses, past, present and future. . . . "I have been saved (in the past) from the penalty of sin by a crucified Saviour. I am being saved (in the present) from the power of sin by a living Saviour. And I shall be saved (in the future) from the very presence of sin by a coming Saviour" . . .

If therefore you were to ask me, "Are you saved?" there is only one correct biblical answer which I could give you: "yes and no." Yes, in the sense that by the sheer grace and mercy of God through the death of Jesus Christ my Saviour he has forgiven my sins, justified me and reconciled me to himself. But no, in the sense that I still have a fallen nature and live in a fallen world and have a corruptible body, and I am longing for my salvation to be brought to its triumphant completion. [Authentic Christianity from the Writings of John Stott, ed. Timothy Dudley-Smith (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1995), p. 168]

President David O. McKay taught that

the gospel of Jesus Christ, as revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, is in very deed, in every way, the power of God unto salvation. It is salvation here--here and now. It gives to every man the perfect life, here and now, as well as hereafter. [GI, p. 6; emphasis in original. See also Brigham Young, JD 6:276 and 8:124­25.]

Too many of us wrestle with feelings of inadequacy, struggle with hopelessness, and in general are much too anxious about our standing before God. It is important to keep the ultimate goal of exaltation ever before us, but it seems so much more profitable to focus on fundamentals and on the here and now--staying in covenant, being dependable and true to our promises, cultivating the gift of the Holy Ghost. President Brigham Young taught:

Our work is a work of the present. The salvation we are seeking is for the present, and, sought correctly, it can be obtained, and be continually enjoyed. If it continues to-day, it is upon the same principle that it will continue to-morrow, the next day, the next week, or the next year, and, we might say, the next eternity. [JD 1:131]

In short, salvation is in Christ, and our covenant with Christ, our trust in his power to redeem us, should be demonstrated in how we live. The influence of the Holy Ghost in our lives is a sign to us that we are on course, "in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17), and thus in line for salvation.

Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

Everyone on earth experiences physical death. Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever (see 1 Corinthians 15:20–22; 2 Nephi 9:6–13).

Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8–10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9; James 2:17–22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).

The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27).

Edited May 17, 2013 by DBMormon

[danielwoods]

You're getting a little ahead of things by focusing on my "living works" comment -- we'll get to that when we move on to the next line. As I said in my previous post, the line of yours I'd like to focus on first is the following one:

"Note, your comment is focusing on the word “works”. It’s the only place in this passage where it’s mentioned."

I consider the above two sentences to be the first line for our discussion, because when they are taken together they form a more complete thought. Let's ride the rhetorical wave generated by this line first before moving on to the next. Like I said, this exercise is going to be painstaking and methodical, but the rewards should be well worth the effort.

For convenience in dialogue, I now repost the passage from the Book of Revelation under discussion:

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:15)

Hopefully, for clarity and a proper point of reference in understanding how the Lord is using the word "works" in the above passage, let's examine how he uses the same word in the admonitions given to churches in Sardis and Thyatira in the same Book of Revelation:

1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.(Rev 3)

.............

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. (Rev 2)...

Before analyzing how the Lord uses the word "works" in the above scriptural references, I have a question for you: If in my original post I had used either one of these two references from Revelation -- wherein the word "works" is used twice -- would you kindly demonstrate for me how you might have modified your first two sentences? [for your convenience I post them below]

"Note, your comment is focusing on the word “works”. It’s the only place in this passage where it’s mentioned."

The line you’d like to focus on is where I point out that you’re focusing on the word “works” and now you’d like to focus on the use of the word works in the other letters to the churches. Not really that interesting to me. What point are you trying to make?

[teddyaware]

The line you’d like to focus on is where I point out that you’re focusing on the word “works” and now you’d like to focus on the use of the word works in the other letters to the churches. Not really that interesting to me. What point are you trying to make?

You made a point of informing me that the word "works" is mentioned "only" once in Revelation 3:15 (quoted below); and as a consequence of this you seemed to be saying I was placing undue emphasis on that word in my exigesis of the verse. You also seemed to be implying it was the Lord's intention that in using the word "works" he was actually referring to an emotional response rather than to one's keeping the commandments of God (love thy neighbor, etc).

So in light of the fact that the Lord uses the word "works" no less than 12 times in his admonitions to the seven churches in Asia alone, I'm wondering if you are still inclined to continue to minimize the significance of the Lord's repeated use of the word "works" throughout Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation?

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:15)

Edited May 17, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

Lightbearer, on 15 May 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

“So basically you are saying that we are unable to fall from grace? That once in a born again state one can never fall? Why then the warnings to watch and pray always that we be not led into temptation? Who is Peter talking about here?”

False. I didn’t say that, and don’t believe that. Of course the one thing that God has given us is freedom to choose him or not. It is that freedom that gives meaning to our relationship with him.

Is not that implied? If after all, if God is the one that "does the works" for us and when we do any unrighteous thing then does that not imply that we cannot fall.

I never said that God does the works for us. Rather, all salvic work was done on the cross that saves us, period. The “works” we do, he does through us. When we do “unrighteous things” that is our flesh doing them.

I mean if after we are "saved" can we sin? Or rather break the commandments? Or do we have a get out of hell free card? Or are you saying you are perfect after being "saved"? If so then if we do anything that could be called a sin who is doing the works? What I am saying is as long as we have the freedom to choose, we do have the freedom to fall from grace. That is where the commandments come in, if we decided to sin or break a commandment then we would no longer be saved... unless we repented of the thing that we did.

Can we choose to fall from grace? Yes.

Does sin cause us to fall from grace? No.

Does breaking commandments cause us to fall from grace? No, how could it since keeping the commandments didn’t bring us grace?

If our salvation rests on our being able to repent “perfectly” all the time, then no one would have salvation, Because we don’t have perfect awareness of all our sin. Further, there’s no NT passage that indicates such a thing is true.

What can cause us to fall from grace? Leaving our relationship/connection to God.

Notice in John 10: 28 “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”

What can separate us from the love of God? Romans 8: 38 “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Only one thing can separate us, our choice to reject him.

Repentance is about both an attitude and action. The attitude part comes when we recognize that we have sinned, and that we have a godly sorrow for offending God. Then we confess and ask God for forgiveness. Then we forsake the sin or as Jesus told the woman taken in adultery to "go and sin no more" that was a condition of forgiveness.

Not quite. Jesus didn’t say, if you go and sin again, I won’t forgive you. Rather it was an admonishment to not ruin your life again. As sin ruins lives. Had nothing to do with forgiveness or not.

Sounds like Paul is teaching the Romans to keep the 10 commandments just saying it in a different way. I submit that the other commandments are encompassed in loving thy neighbor and loving the Lord our God.

I would also submit that keeping these commandments is DOING GOOD! Doing evil would be the opposite. If you think the New Testament does not say we must keep the commandments then you have a warped view of the scriptures.

Interesting that you haven’t pointed to a passage that states that keeping the commandments saves us. My point all along has been that relationship to God saves us, and works are a result of that relationship. Hence, what you call doing good is a result of our salvation, not the cause of it.

Now how can we follow Jesus save we be willinng to keep His commandments? Did Jesus tell the rich man the truth? Is keeping the commandments important?

The point of Jesus discussion with the rich man was pointing out that his relationship (his trust) was in his wealth, and was wishing to justify himself. Notice that Jesus told him to sell all he has and to “come and follow me.” Hmm… more relationship language huh? Follow me. Notice also Jesus didn't say "sell all you have" and continue to keep the commandments because that's what saves you."

So baptism is a work that must be done to be saved. We LDS believe in modern revelation we believe that God still speaks and that He still gives us commandments and the authority to perform these saving ordinances just as He did the apostles of old. Our relationship is one of revelation and that He has revealed His covenant anew in this dispensation of time

LDS aren’t the only ones who believe God still speaks. Every Christian alive believes this. He speaks to me everyday as well. The question is what is the crux of the issue? What causes us to be saved? The LDS, as you have pointed out, believe that all the ordinances must be done by the proper authority, to be saved. This isn’t in the NT though. All that the NT describes to be saved is to be connected in relationship to God. Just as Peter described those Jewish Christians trying to get Gentiles to follow the Law to be saved, in Acts 15.

Notice, that no baptism no ordinances, no authority. Just relationship, salvation through a person, Jesus Christ who still speaks to us today.

The law failed, as Peter stated, and Paul in Romans, because it was based on the flesh (but the law did it’s job in exposing sin). Instead the Gospel is based on Jesus’ work, not our work. Based on our connection to him in relationship, not our strength but his.

You don't think there's a similarity between the LDS requirements to keep the commandments and ordinances to be saved, and the Jewish Christians requirement of the Gentiles to keep the law of Moses to be saved?

[danielwoods]

Very good analysis! I think the problem we have when dealing with folks who believe this way is that they enamoured with the idea that they don't have to do anything in order to be saved, other than to believe in God -- while also feeling and professing a stong and passionate personal love for Him. But isn't merely developing a feeling of love for God an action, a form of work?

But love is a verb as well as a noun; an action as well as an emotion. I would imagine that those who adhere to this doctrine (i.e. those who are "truly saved") must be veritable whirlwinds of love and constant service to their fellow man. Why? Because according to the Lord, one cannot genuinely love God without also having an equal desire to love and serve one's fellow man.

So in the end the practioners of this doctrine must be diligently keeping all the commandments of God by default. Not because they are consciously trying to keep the commandments, but because they have such an overwhelming love for God that their love spills over copiously onto their fellow man -- they are just doing what comes naturally. Remember, "love is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 3:10)

But what happens if a practioner of this doctrine continues to sin and fails to diligently serve their fellow man in love? Wouldn't this naturally cause one to question just how sincere and genuine that love of God is, and whether or not that individual is truly saved? "By their fruits ye shall know them."

"Wouldn't this naturally cause one to question just how sincere and genuine that love of God is, and whether or not that individual is truly saved?"

Who is to question the relationship that another has with God? How do you know if one is truly saved or not?

[danielwoods]

You made a point of informing me that the word "works" is mentioned "only" once in Revelation 3:15 (quoted below); and as a consequence of this you seemed to be saying I was placing undue emphasis on that word in my exigesis of the verse. You also seemed to be implying it was the Lord's intention that in using the word "works" he was actually referring to an emotional response rather than to one's keeping the commandments of God (love thy neighbor, etc).

So in light of the fact that the Lord uses the word "works" no less than 12 times in his admonitions to the seven churches in Asia alone, I'm wondering if you are still inclined to continue to minimize the significance of the Lord's repeated use of the word "works" throughout Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation?

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:15)

Actually the passage that was quoted was the whole letter to the Laodiceans, where the word "works" was used once. And then you focused on that word throughout the whole letter (passage). And I pointed out that it was only used once at the beginning and the rest of the time the focus was on relationship to God, which you didn't focus on.

The fact that it is used "no less than 12 times" in the other letters is not significant to that point, no.

[Tacenda]

I never said that God does the works for us. Rather, all salvic work was done on the cross that saves us, period. The “works” we do, he does through us. When we do “unrighteous things” that is our flesh doing them.

Can we choose to fall from grace? Yes.

Does sin cause us to fall from grace? No.

Does breaking commandments cause us to fall from grace? No, how could it since keeping the commandments didn’t bring us grace?

If our salvation rests on our being able to repent “perfectly” all the time, then no one would have salvation, Because we don’t have perfect awareness of all our sin. Further, there’s no NT passage that indicates such a thing is true.

What can cause us to fall from grace? Leaving our relationship/connection to God.

Notice in John 10: 28 “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”

What can separate us from the love of God? Romans 8: 38 “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Only one thing can separate us, our choice to reject him.

Not quite. Jesus didn’t say, if you go and sin again, I won’t forgive you. Rather it was an admonishment to not ruin your life again. As sin ruins lives. Had nothing to do with forgiveness or not.

Interesting that you haven’t pointed to a passage that states that keeping the commandments saves us. My point all along has been that relationship to God saves us, and works are a result of that relationship. Hence, what you call doing good is a result of our salvation, not the cause of it.

The point of Jesus discussion with the rich man was pointing out that his relationship (his trust) was in his wealth, and was wishing to justify himself. Notice that Jesus told him to sell all he has and to “come and follow me.” Hmm… more relationship language huh? Follow me. Notice also Jesus didn't say "sell all you have" and continue to keep the commandments because that's what saves you."

LDS aren’t the only ones who believe God still speaks. Every Christian alive believes this. He speaks to me everyday as well. The question is what is the crux of the issue? What causes us to be saved? The LDS, as you have pointed out, believe that all the ordinances must be done by the proper authority, to be saved. This isn’t in the NT though. All that the NT describes to be saved is to be connected in relationship to God. Just as Peter described those Jewish Christians trying to get Gentiles to follow the Law to be saved, in Acts 15.

Notice, that no baptism no ordinances, no authority. Just relationship, salvation through a person, Jesus Christ who still speaks to us today.

The law failed, as Peter stated, and Paul in Romans, because it was based on the flesh (but the law did it’s job in exposing sin). Instead the Gospel is based on Jesus’ work, not our work. Based on our connection to him in relationship, not our strength but his.

You don't think there's a similarity between the LDS requirements to keep the commandments and ordinances to be saved, and the Jewish Christians requirement of the Gentiles to keep the law of Moses to be saved?

I worry alot that my salvation rests on my having a personal relationship, because I have none. Sadly my relationship has been with my religion. Through my fault only, and maybe a tad bit on some teachings out there, one where we go through the Saviour to get to God. And we don't really try for a relationship with the Saviour, well atleast according to Bruce R. Mcconkie. But then I think there are more recent talks given in gen. conference that allude to it, It's all very confusing. For a long time Jesus was my elder brother but since reading on this board he is also God. So now I have two Gods. But that's because he helped create the earth. To an outsider they might think we believe in the Trinity but we don't. So how does one get that relationship, I've already asked Him into my life. What else do I do? The LDS answer would be to pray, read scriptures, go to the temple, etc. all good answers, but what would you suggest?

[teddyaware]

"Wouldn't this naturally cause one to question just how sincere and genuine that love of God is, and whether or not that individual is truly saved?"

Who is to question the relationship that another has with God? How do you know if one is truly saved or not?

It wasn't yours truly but the Saviour who said "by their fruits ye shall know them."

[teddyaware]

Actually the passage that was quoted was the whole letter to the Laodiceans, where the word "works" was used once. And then you focused on that word throughout the whole letter (passage). And I pointed out that it was only used once at the beginning and the rest of the time the focus was on relationship to God, which you didn't focus on.

The fact that it is used "no less than 12 times" in the other letters is not significant to that point, no.

One wonders if you're being deliberately obtuse on this point. You say since the word "works" is used only once in the Lord's admonition to the Laodicean's, that means we shouldn't place any significant focus on that word. The false logic behind this idea is ridiculous, and I believe you're too intelligent to not know it is ridiculous. Ask any English major and they'll tell you this point of yours about words being insignificant to a text if they're used only once in a portion that text is absurd. I call this technique grasping at literary straws

What would you have said if I had posted the Lord's words of counsel to the Thyatiran's instead of his admonition to the Laodiceans?

"18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first." (Revelation 2)

Observe that the Lord uses words of action at least four times in this one verse alone. With this passage, will you still insist these words of action are not significant to the text?

And let me make one thing very clear, when I say a follower of Christ must bring forth actions to demonstrate he is indeed saved, I'm not talking about the works of the flesh or dead works, I'm talking about the living works of the Spirit; or in other words works that are inspired and empowered by the Spirit -- as Moroni so powerfully taught in the Book of Mormon:

"21 And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope.

22 And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity.

23 And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me.

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God."

When a man is saved, he is saved not only in word but in deed...

Edited May 17, 2013 by teddyaware

[volgadon]

Can we choose to fall from grace? Yes.

Does sin cause us to fall from grace? No.

Does breaking commandments cause us to fall from grace? No, how could it since keeping the commandments didn’t bring us grace?

If our salvation rests on our being able to repent “perfectly” all the time, then no one would have salvation, Because we don’t have perfect awareness of all our sin. Further, there’s no NT passage that indicates such a thing is true.

What can cause us to fall from grace? Leaving our relationship/connection to God.

That is ridiculous. So, one can beat the crap out of a little old lady and steal her purse in order to invite someone else's wife for a weekend away and still not fall from grace?

It all goes back to what Heschel said about the intrinsic value of deeds.

[Tacenda]

That is ridiculous. So, one can beat the crap out of a little old lady and steal her purse in order to invite someone else's wife for a weekend away and still not fall from grace?

It all goes back to what Heschel said about the intrinsic value of deeds.

This is a crux to me also, but you have to wonder if they ever, ever had that relationship with the Saviour in the first place. I doubt it, I think that relationship with the Saviour that Daniel is speaking of is so big, that if one achieves it they won't be knocking down little old ladies, they will be transformed enough to walk the Jesus walk, sort of. Will it be few that make it? Maybe so...this alone should make us worry in the LDS faith. Have we done enough as far as the relationship? Maybe if we truly had one there would never be a need to sin. Do you ever think of it that way? Edited May 17, 2013 by Tacenda

[Lightbearer]

I never said that God does the works for us. Rather, all salvic work was done on the cross that saves us, period. The “works” we do, he does through us. When we do “unrighteous things” that is our flesh doing them.

What do you mean does the "works" through us? Does God's spirit take possession and we no longer have any will? If you mean that we yield unto the enticings of the Holy Spirit and deny ourselves of ungodliness then I can understand and agree. I believe that we were given our agency so that we could test our faith. Not that God needed to see the results but the very act of choosing good over evil makes the relationship with God real rather than just a hope. Every scripture I have quoted that shows that keeping the commandments are essential you have either misinterpreted or ignored.

When you read the scriptures through the prism of Evangelical protestantism then of course you ignore the book of James or make a private interpretation of what "doing good" is or what "good fruit" is or what Jesus meant when He told the adulteress to "go and sin no more" twisting it to mean "don't ruin your life" I mean please...

Can we choose to fall from grace? Yes.

Does sin cause us to fall from grace? No.

Does breaking commandments cause us to fall from grace? No, how could it since keeping the commandments didn’t bring us grace?

Sin does not cause us to fall from grace? Better tell Adam about that one. Sorry but this is totally wrong from any standpoint.

If our salvation rests on our being able to repent “perfectly” all the time, then no one would have salvation, Because we don’t have perfect awareness of all our sin. Further, there’s no NT passage that indicates such a thing is true.

What can cause us to fall from grace? Leaving our relationship/connection to God.

First I never said we can live perfectly all the time while in the flesh. That is why repentance is a daily necessary process, it is how we follow Jesus. As for awareness of sin is that the job of the Holy Ghost? Does he not convict us of sin? Can He not bring all things to our rememberance? Did not Jesus command us to be perfect?

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."(New Testament | Matthew 5:48)

Now how can we be perfect if it is not gradually? Thus this life is a probation where we strive to become as Christ.

So how would one leave their relationship with God if not by disobedience?

Notice in John 10: 28 “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”

What can separate us from the love of God? Romans 8: 38 “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Only one thing can separate us, our choice to reject him.

Yes and how do we reject God's love? What must a person do or neglect to do? Is it denying Him? Did Peter reject him when he denied Him? When Jesus confronted Peter and asked him if he loved him (relationship) and Peter said that the Lord knew that he loved HIm. What did Jesus say? Feed my sheep... He told him what he needed to DO! If Peter had said "I'd rather go fishing" would that have been a rejection of God? Would it be disobeying a commandment?

Not quite. Jesus didn’t say, if you go and sin again, I won’t forgive you. Rather it was an admonishment to not ruin your life again. As sin ruins lives. Had nothing to do with forgiveness or not.

That is a private interpretation, go and sin no more! If it had nothing to do with forgiveness then why say sin no more... I mean if breaking the commandments is meaningless then why would it ruin her life?

Interesting that you haven’t pointed to a passage that states that keeping the commandments saves us. My point all along has been that relationship to God saves us, and works are a result of that relationship. Hence, what you call doing good is a result of our salvation, not the cause of it.

I never said that keeping the commandments alone saves us. We are saved through the atonement of Christ by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (not the Law of Moses)

The point of Jesus discussion with the rich man was pointing out that his relationship (his trust) was in his wealth, and was wishing to justify himself. Notice that Jesus told him to sell all he has and to “come and follow me.” Hmm… more relationship language huh? Follow me. Notice also Jesus didn't say "sell all you have" and continue to keep the commandments because that's what saves you."

No the discussion was a direct question of "what must I do to have eternal life?" Jesus said keep the commandments... when the rich man said he had done this from a child, then Jesus said "if he would be perfect sell all he has and give to the poor and come follow me" If we follow Jesus will we be baptized as He instructed his apostles in the scripture I quoted and you chose to ignore, if we follow Jesus will we continue in sin? Will we lie, kill, steal, commit adultery, or covet? I quoted Paul in Romans but again you just ignore. I do not say we are buying our way to salvation, but if we fail to keep the commandments, if we fail to follow Jesus and obey the Gospel then we will be damned.

LDS aren’t the only ones who believe God still speaks. Every Christian alive believes this. He speaks to me everyday as well. The question is what is the crux of the issue? What causes us to be saved? The LDS, as you have pointed out, believe that all the ordinances must be done by the proper authority, to be saved. This isn’t in the NT though. All that the NT describes to be saved is to be connected in relationship to God. Just as Peter described those Jewish Christians trying to get Gentiles to follow the Law to be saved, in Acts 15.

Notice, that no baptism no ordinances, no authority. Just relationship, salvation through a person, Jesus Christ who still speaks to us today.

That is absolutely not true, Jesus Christ works through His priesthood, and through the keys of the kingdom. God reveals His will to living prophets and apostles, He also reveals the truth to those who seek for it. The great apostasy is evidence that HIs authority was lost and that many of the plain and precious things were lost from the Bible. As for modern Christians do they claim that God can reveal scripture today? Or do they claim all such things are done away? Or do they think that God can only speak through the scriptures? That sounds more like the Jews who rejected the Lord, and used the scripture then existant to do it.

The law failed, as Peter stated, and Paul in Romans, because it was based on the flesh (but the law did it’s job in exposing sin). Instead the Gospel is based on Jesus’ work, not our work. Based on our connection to him in relationship, not our strength but his.

The law did not fail, the house of Israel rejected it they refused to listen to living prophets so all they had left was a dead form of godliness and who held their traditions and private interpretations over modern revelation. The law was a schoolmaster and if the house of Israel had obeyed they would have been ready to hear John when he came baptizing. They would not have rejected Christ and prefered Cesear as their king.

You don't think there's a similarity between the LDS requirements to keep the commandments and ordinances to be saved, and the Jewish Christians requirement of the Gentiles to keep the law of Moses to be saved?

No I do not think that at all, because the Jewish Christians wanted to still accept their apostate traditions and mix them with the Gospel. The rejected the testimonies of the Prophets and Apostles. I think that the following shows how the relationship we have with God and keeping His commandments are directly related:

"WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." (New Testament | 1 John 5:1-4)

You cannot seperate our faith from keeping the commandments because that is how our faith as LDS is manifested. The keeping the commandments is not something we do seperate from our faith in Christ it is the evidence, the proof that our faith is real. You cannot have one without the other.

[Lightbearer]

This is a crux to me also, but you have to wonder if they ever, ever had that relationship with the Saviour in the first place. I doubt it, I think that relationship with the Saviour that Daniel is speaking of is so big, that if one achieves it they won't be knocking down little old ladies, they will be transformed enough to walk the Jesus walk, sort of. Will it be few that make it? Maybe so...this alone should make us worry in the LDS faith. Have we done enough as far as the relationship? Maybe if we truly had one there would never be a need to sin. Do you ever think of it that way?

The Book of Mormon helps us understand this here:

"Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive. And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:17-20)

This is a gradual process and we must walk the path, the reason we have the gift of the Holy Ghost is to help us in our overcoming the world. That is why we must rely upon the Savior and also renew our covenant and strive to stay on that path until the end.

[volgadon]

This is a crux to me also, but you have to wonder if they ever, ever had that relationship with the Saviour in the first place. I doubt it, I think that relationship with the Saviour that Daniel is speaking of is so big, that if one achieves it they won't be knocking down little old ladies, they will be transformed enough to walk the Jesus walk, sort of. Will it be few that make it? Maybe so...this alone should make us worry in the LDS faith. Have we done enough as far as the relationship? Maybe if we truly had one there would never be a need to sin. Do you ever think of it that way?

I don't find that bit about not having the relationship in the first place very convincing. For one, it is horribly fatalistic, and not particularly hopeful. For another, it is tantamount to admiting that sin does indeed prevent having the right relationship with Jesus. In other words, sin and disobedience define the nature of our relationship with Jesus, which Daniel states does not.

As for truly having a relationship, we can explore flawed, human relations. My wife and I love each other dearly. However, we still quarrell on occasion, still say stupid, careless things. Love means that we work on minimising such instances. It is a growing process.

[teddyaware]

That is ridiculous. So, one can beat the crap out of a little old lady and steal her purse in order to invite someone else's wife for a weekend away and still not fall from grace?

It all goes back to what Heschel said about the intrinsic value of deeds.

In a certain sense it is true that unltimately it all boils down to the quality of our relationship with God -- the better the quality of that relationship, the better the quality of our lives. But it is also true that the path to overcoming the world and ultimate exaltation is a process of growing in the grace, knowledge and power of God through the atonement of Christ.

It seems we Latter-day Saints aren't the only ones who've had to deal with widespread misunderstanding and misapplication of the teachings of Paul. Even the Meridian-day Saints had to contend with those who misunderstood Paul, for there were those who seemed to believe faithful effort in the Lord was unnecessary, and even a counterproductive encumbrance to life in the gospel. Read carefully Peter's warning to the saints of his day, and see how Paul was being misunderstood by some, to the very imperilment of their salvation:

¹³ Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

¹⁴ Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

¹⁵ And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

¹⁶ As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

¹⁷ Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

¹⁸ But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. (2 Peter 3) Amen.

So it seems there were professing Christians in Peter's day who held the same once saved always saved "doctrine." Those who held this view seemed to believe there was no need for faithful, spiritually-empowered effort toward growth in the faith. Peter warns the saints of his day to not allow a misunderstanding of Paul's difficult-to-be-undestood teachings to cause them to no longer be diligent in the faith and to fall from their own steadfastness in doing the will of the Lord by means of the gifts and powers of God. Peter wanted the church to understand salvation by grace is a process of growth, until the glorious arrival of the perfect day.

Edited May 17, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

I worry alot that my salvation rests on my having a personal relationship, because I have none. Sadly my relationship has been with my religion. Through my fault only, and maybe a tad bit on some teachings out there, one where we go through the Saviour to get to God. And we don't really try for a relationship with the Saviour, well atleast according to Bruce R. Mcconkie. But then I think there are more recent talks given in gen. conference that allude to it, It's all very confusing. For a long time Jesus was my elder brother but since reading on this board he is also God. So now I have two Gods. But that's because he helped create the earth. To an outsider they might think we believe in the Trinity but we don't. So how does one get that relationship, I've already asked Him into my life. What else do I do? The LDS answer would be to pray, read scriptures, go to the temple, etc. all good answers, but what would you suggest?

It's all very confusing. I can understand how it would be. Who do you trust? Appears to be the real the source of your confusion. And who do you trust? The LDS church? Evangelical teachings?

My advice? Trust in God. That may sound simplistic, but it isn't up to us to save ourselves. Our only job is be who he created us to be. To be connected to him directly all the time.

How is this done on a human level? When we meet someone for the first time, how do we get to know them? We spend time with them. So, my advice would be ask God what to do, and lay it in his lap and listen for his answer. He states that his yoke is easy, and his burden is light trust him. He's already done all the work of salvation for us, now its time to walk in that light and rejoice!

[danielwoods]

That is ridiculous. So, one can beat the crap out of a little old lady and steal her purse in order to invite someone else's wife for a weekend away and still not fall from grace?

It all goes back to what Heschel said about the intrinsic value of deeds.

If you were saved based on your merits you'd have a point.

Paul was arresting christians and some were murdered (Stephen), yet is it interesting that Jesus appeared to him even while he was still "breathing murderous threats". And Moses killed an Egyptian yet he was still used by God as well. And through which wife of David did Jesus linage come through? (hint it was the adulterous one)

Does any of this indicate that God wants us to do bad things? No. What it indicates is that we aren't saved based on our merits, but our connection to God through relationship.

[Tacenda]

It's all very confusing. I can understand how it would be. Who do you trust? Appears to be the real the source of your confusion. And who do you trust? The LDS church? Evangelical teachings?

My advice? Trust in God. That may sound simplistic, but it isn't up to us to save ourselves. Our only job is be who he created us to be. To be connected to him directly all the time.

How is this done on a human level? When we meet someone for the first time, how do we get to know them? We spend time with them. So, my advice would be ask God what to do, and lay it in his lap and listen for his answer. He states that his yoke is easy, and his burden is light trust him. He's already done all the work of salvation for us, now its time to walk in that light and rejoice!

First time for everything. I did ask God to be in my life two days ago, but will do what you've suggested also, not very convinced it'll happen, hopefully that won't block it from happening. I also, tried to find answers about the LDS church being true, with lots of prayer and pleading for a sign, but nothing came of that either. He just seems to be absent in my life.

ETA: I like what you've said below Daniel, that is so true, we can't do it alone. We go to God for help, that would be a relationship building tool right there. He is like a father I guess. And he wants me to come to him for help, just like we want our children to come to us. Thank you, and sorry I had to use this post to respond, I'm on "limited" and don't get many posts per day. (The Mods definitely have it in for me, but I'm grateful I haven't been banned for eternity).

Edited May 17, 2013 by Tacenda

[danielwoods]

This is a crux to me also, but you have to wonder if they ever, ever had that relationship with the Saviour in the first place. I doubt it, I think that relationship with the Saviour that Daniel is speaking of is so big, that if one achieves it they won't be knocking down little old ladies, they will be transformed enough to walk the Jesus walk, sort of. Will it be few that make it? Maybe so...this alone should make us worry in the LDS faith. Have we done enough as far as the relationship? Maybe if we truly had one there would never be a need to sin. Do you ever think of it that way?

To me this confuses 1)following the law and 2)being connected in relationship to God.

"Have we done enough as far as the relationship?" The point of the Law is that we can't ever do enough. We can't do it. Now, ask yourself a question. Why would God give us a Law that we couldn't keep? Do we ever do that to our kids? why do we do that?

The reason is because we want to teach our kids that they can't do it alone, they need to learn to ask for help. The same is true with the Law. It teaches us we can't be good enough. We simply aren't able. We have to trust and rely on God. And in that moment we realize that was the point all along.

[teddyaware]

To me this confuses 1)following the law and 2)being connected in relationship to God.

"Have we done enough as far as the relationship?" The point of the Law is that we can't ever do enough. We can't do it. Now, ask yourself a question. Why would God give us a Law that we couldn't keep? Do we ever do that to our kids? why do we do that?

The reason is because we want to teach our kids that they can't do it alone, they need to learn to ask for help. The same is true with the Law. It teaches us we can't be good enough. We simply aren't able. We have to trust and rely on God. And in that moment we realize that was the point all along.

It's all about spiritual growth in the knowledge, wisdom and power of Christ; it's all about increasing one's degree of faith and hope, and in increasing the breadth, depth and hight of the capacity of one's charity (the pure love of Christ); it's all about finding joy in the improvement of one's character and in the personal increase of the gifts and powers of God; it's all about overcoming the world of sin, the flesh and the devil; it's all about the joy and exhilaration one feels as he draws closer and closer to God in mutual love and in harmony of will; it's all about the glorious day when one hears the Lord say, "well done though good and faithful servant;" it's all about the joy of spiritual growth and empowerment through the grace of God the Father and of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Edited May 17, 2013 by teddyaware

[Calm]

If you were saved based on your merits you'd have a point.

Paul was arresting christians and some were murdered (Stephen), yet is it interesting that Jesus appeared to him even while he was still "breathing murderous threats". And Moses killed an Egyptian yet he was still used by God as well. And through which wife of David did Jesus linage come through? (hint it was the adulterous one)

Does any of this indicate that God wants us to do bad things? No. What it indicates is that we aren't saved based on our merits, but our connection to God through relationship.

So was Paul 'in grace' at the time he was an accessory to murder? Was Moses "in grace" at the time he killed an Egyptian? Was the relationship already there or did it come after these actions/