Brad Wilcox'S View On Grace

[danielwoods]

Have you read the Frank Moore Cross bit that I linked to?

I read one page and didn't get the point you're trying to make. Hence my question.

[danielwoods]

Daniel,

I used asking the Lord if the Church is true as an example of the many, many questions one could pose to the Lord in a quest for more divine wisdom. In Joseph Smith's case, after reading and being inspired by these verses in James chapter one, he asked the Lord which of all the churches of his day he should join. He was then given wisdom from the the Lord, by revelation, that he did not already possess -- he was told to join none of them.

James was speaking of a lack of wisdom in any area of gospel knowledge that stood in the way of a saint becoming "perfect and entire, wanting nothing." The expression "wanting nothing" means just what it says. Someone who is wanting nothing, by very definition, has everything. Wouldn't you agree?

As for those that love the Lord receiving the crown of life. That is true. The only clarification that needs to be made on this point is that those who successfully endure temptation, in divinely ordained trials of faith, are the ones who truly love the Lord. These verses make it perfectly clear -- it is not enough for one to say he loves the Lord. Rather, only after enduring temptation (i.e. "when he is tried") will he prove he loves the Lord enough to receive the crown of life. James' use of the words "when he is tried" makes it patently clear that the crown isn't bestowed until after the successfully endured trial of faith, which successfully endured trial validates one's professed love of the Lord. To say anything else here is to "wrest" the obvious intended meaning of these verses of scripture.

"... even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. (2 Peter 3)

James' meaning is so clear and unambiguous, I'm beginning to wonder if you're pulling my leg...

James the author had a purpose in putting his "if any lack wisdom" right after his statements about how trials make us grow. The application that JS used certainly wasn't the authors original intention. The claim that JS had revelation is not something I am persuaded of.

The statement is that the crown of life is promised to those who love him. I never said those who "say he loves the Lord." The point is that all those who love him will endure, as a result of that love. All believers will get the crown of life. That is what James states very plainly.

[Lightbearer]

Whew! I don't know if I can get to all this in one post.

I was responding to what you stated: Lightbearer, on 18 May 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

"On the contrary the reason we were given agency is so we could learn to choose good over evil. Without agency, law, responsibility, and consequences existence would be meaningless we could not develop faith (trust In God) and so there would be no relationship except being a puppet or robot programmed by God."

You stated that there would be no relationship without the consequences and existence would be meaningless. If that's true then are there also consequences in Heaven?

Without consequences meaning punishment for un-repented sin then there can be no agency. Agency itself consists of two opposing choices, both choices have consequences. If not then there is no meaningful existence. Lehi expresses it far better than I could:

“For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first–born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God. And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon. And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter. Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other. And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God. And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil. And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth. And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth. And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents. And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit; And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.”

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:11-29)

These passages explain how this earth life is a probationary period where we learn to keep the commandments of God. The relationship is real, we are acting and not being acted upon as we choose to follow Christ and deny ourselves of all ungodliness.

Show me where in the NT it states that our relationship isn't legal unless the ordinances are done by someone of Authority?

If that can't be done, then either it's not a NT teaching or it's missing. If it's missing then what would be the evidence that it went missing?

Really a moot point since you do not believe in saving ordinances anyway. I could give you a quote but of course you would reject it and apply your own interpretation to it. But I will give you the following:

“And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.”(New Testament | Hebrews 5:4)

Aaron was called by revelation to a prophet (Moses) and so we believe that a man must be called of God by prophecy and revelation by those in authority. Christ gave His apostles that authority and they ordained others. Although this authority was lost in the falling away or apostasy that occurred after the death of the apostles it was restored to the earth in our day:

“We still continued the work of translation, when, in the ensuing month (May, 1829), we on a certain day went into the woods to pray and inquire of the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins, that we found mentioned in the translation of the plates. While we were thus employed, praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying:

Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me. Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded. The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.”

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:68-72)

That is where LDS authority comes from. Without the priesthood and the saving ordinances then the power of godliness is not manifest in the flesh. Jesus taught the importance of baptism by being baptized Himself and also commanding His disciples to baptize those who believe in Him:

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (New Testament | Mark 16:15-16)

Continued in next post

[Lightbearer]

"continued striving to keep the covenant" is what I have issue with. Our salvation isn't based on our continued striving. If it were we'd all fail. Now, I agree that we strive to follow Christ more and more, but that is because of his love working in us more and more, not because we are afraid we might lose our salvation.

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (New Testament | Philippians 2:12)

With fear and trembling? If Christ “did it all” then why the fear and trembling? Why work out your own salvation if Christ did it all?

The question is what saves us. I didn't quote the passage out of context, rather I pointed out that right in the middle of the passage, the basis for salvation is seen to be relationship. "I never knew you..." Knowledge, and connection and not works are what save us.

Your question misses the point entirely. Of course those who have a relationship, *want* to do his will. It's a silly question.

Not a silly question if one is trying to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. That passage is all about doing, doing the will of the Father. If one does not do the will of the Father then how can one have a relationship with God? If you love me keep my commandments? Would you say that is a “silly statement”? So the question again is can we be saved and disobey God? Does the blood of Christ excuse us from not obeying Him? Again I quote once more, and I am not denying a covenant relationship we make with God, I am saying in order to remain in that relationship we must continue to repent as we fall short

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (New Testament | Matthew 7:21 - 27)

So in the above passage does this not define what one must do to have a relationship with God? Why does He say that we must do the will (commandments) of the Father if we are to be built upon a rock? If one does not do the will of the Father then the Lord will say “I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity! Who are the workers of iniquity if not those who do not keep His commandments and do not repent?

Then why make the point that we must keep the commandments in order to be/stay saved?

Did you not say that one can fall from grace? If I suppose I am born again, if I believe I am sanctified and do not live the commandments then am I still saved? Consider the following:

“Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.”

(New Testament | 3 John 1:11)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (New Testament | 1 John 5:18)

Again one cannot be saved while in their sins. Thus if one is truly born of God then they do not sin, they keep the commandments and are only saved in as much as they continue to keep His commandments and repent and renew the covenant with God.

Certainly didn't intend to insult you. I was responding to your statement, "We must run the race, We must strive to follow Christ and keep the covenant so that we may have the relationship of being a son of God, so we may be the bride prepared for the bridegroom."

The statement, "So that we may have the relationship..." "So that we may be the bride..." made it sound like it was something you haven't attained yet.

We have a relationship if we continue to run the race, if we strive to follow Christ with all our heart might mind and strength. There is no such thing as “instant salvation” we cannot be perfected in the twinkling of an eye. We must finish the course, we must keep the faith (as Paul did)

No unclean thing will enter the kingdom, because we (believers) all have the righteousness of Christ already. It's a beautiful thing!

So if a person has accepted Christ and so is cleansed from sin and then turns around and commits sin, say murder or adultery or steals, is he still clean and holy? Is he unable to fall from grace? Or is he unclean as Peter said like a dog turned to his own vomit?

Why are keeping the commands of God important? Because they work. They bring life and riches to our lives. However, keeping the commands did not give us the connection to God or establish the means to our relationship with God. Christ did that alone. We simply responded and let him in.

Why do the commands of God work? Also Christ did the atonement alone but He does not do the works of faith for us. He does not repent for us. He does not endure to the end for us. He does support us with His spirit and He makes it possible for us to endure temptation if we rely on Him and obey His Gospel.

The principle is the same. Whether you call it the Law of the Gospel or the Law of moses, if it's a law that relies on the arm of the flesh it will fail. That was Peter's point. The only thing that changes men's hearts is the Spirit working within us. The net result of putting a different yoke on people is same as before. Legalism.

If we rely on His spirit, if we have the gift of the Holy Ghost then how is striving to keep His commandments relying on the “arm of the flesh”? Partaking of the sins of the flesh is relying on the arm of the flesh. Not following Christ and living a Christ-like life.

Only if you remember that he said that "his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness..." already. It's all been given to us. There is no, "I must work for this salvation, I must strive to stay saved." He's given it all to us all ready. Given! Isn't that interesting?

Now, does that mean we don't grow in him? Certainly not. But, what it does mean is that we don't do it by ourselves under our own power. His yoke is easy and his burden is light.

So what Paul said about “working out our salvation with fear in trembling” is not true?

This passage doesn't say, "through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ." As you claim. Rather it states plainly, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations..." and again, "they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..."

Through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Isn't it amazing how clear the statement is? Just know him personally, be connected to him via personal relationship. HE knows how to deliver the godly.

Of course it is true that those who forsake that connection, for what ever reason, will then have to answer for their own sin, as they will no longer have the righteousness of Christ.

So what reason would anyone forsake that connection? Is this not saying the same thing as working our own salvation? You again try to position it so that we as LDS do not have a connection to Jesus Christ! Of course we escape the pollutions of the world by the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, through repenting and following Him. If we do not seek the kingdom of God, we will not obtain it.

We could probably have a whole thread on this. You state that this teaches the same as the NT, however it states it differently, "by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

and compared to Ephesians 2:^{8 "}For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

Now, I come to this with an open mind. I don't care one way or the other. But the two statements aren't the same are they? If they were I'd have no problem acknowledging that fact. But, they clearly are not the same.

Now it could be that one is more "correct" than the other. It could be that one was changed. However, I don't think a rational argument can be made that says that these two teachings are exactly the same.

Yes we could have a whole thread on this, in fact we have almost taken over this thread! Your interpretation of being saved by grace is the difference. It does not say by grace alone. It says by grace are ye saved through faith! Not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Now I ask what is faith? If faith is a mere lip service? Or just a feeling in the heart? Or is it talking about the works of faith? In other words we keep the commandments because of our faith! It is because we love Him is the reason we keep the commandments. The law of Moses was not the end all of salvation, without the atonement of Christ the law is DEAD. But the commandments of God are not limited to the law of Moses. We as LDS are commanded to repent of our sins, we are commanded to be baptized, we are commanded to love the Lord and love our neighbor as ourselves. We are commanded to endure faithfully to the end.

The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible reveals the following:

“Therefore ye are justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to them only who are of the law, but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.”(JST | Romans 4:16)

The following scripture in the Book of Mormon explains how we partake of the grace of God and retain our relationship:

“I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body— I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world. And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you. Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend. And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them. And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel. And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true. And ye will not have a mind to injure one another, but to live peaceably, and to render to every man according to that which is his due. And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the evil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness. But ye will teach them to walk in the ways of truth and soberness; ye will teach them to love one another, and to serve one another. And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.”

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 4:6-16)

According to LDS doctrine this is the way we follow Christ, it is rather simple, although not too pleasing to the carnal mind, but to those who seek God and His kingdom it is pleasing. There is no boasting here no buying forgiveness to sin or of doing the commandments of ourselves. Without Christ’s atonement there would be no salvation, we cannot do it alone. But Christ while has provided the way the truth and the light, He has not endured to the end for us. He has not kept the faith for us. He made repentance possible, but did not repent for us. He has provided the strait and narrow path but He does not walk it for us. He does provide us with His spirit which helps us endure temptation and leads us into all truth, but He does not compel us to come unto Him… we must exercise our agency and our faith to do so.

[JDave]

Right. And this is how God works. He changes us from the inside out. He changes our hearts desires first, which changes our will to match his, then this results in the actions that others can see.

I agree with this. I see it as a joint effort. We can't do it without God, and without our trying and striving God can't do it to us. We are to BECOME something new and better. This relationship stuff you are talking about is really good, but all relationships involve more than one person.

Otherwise God is capricious and He chooses who to work within and who not to. I just can't subscribe to that. God loves us all and wants all of us to be saved. If He could, He would have all of us saved. But I think you agree that some will not be saved. Man can't be culpable of his damnation yet not be culpable of his salvation. God made it all possible, but at the point that He lets us choose whether to accept Him or not we are responsible. That responsibility doesn't dissolve as soon as we proclaim for Jesus. God doesn't abrogate our agency and responsibility and suddenly start doing things within us -- unless we are working WITH Him. Then we are growing in our salvation relationship by striving to always accept the ways in which God would change us. The very instance of moving beyond a mere mental nod to Jesus, and taking action to accept Him -- that is the crucible where change is effected. We become as we do, and we do as we become. Faith and works, intertwined. It's Phillip. 2:12 intertwined with Phillip. 2:13. They are intertwined throughout the scriptures, given various degrees of emphasis from place to place, but never to be wrested apart.

[teddyaware]

James the author had a purpose in putting his "if any lack wisdom" right after his statements about how trials make us grow. The application that JS used certainly wasn't the authors original intention. The claim that JS had revelation is not something I am persuaded of.

The statement is that the crown of life is promised to those who love him. I never said those who "say he loves the Lord." The point is that all those who love him will endure, as a result of that love. All believers will get the crown of life. That is what James states very plainly.

As to your statement in the first paragraph above, please reread what I've said before on the subject. I see no use in going around and around on this one, as I've already made my case. We'll just have to agree to disagree

Even though James plainly and unambiguously says "blessed is the man that endureth temptation, for when he is tried he shall receive the crown of life," you refuse to acknowledge the fact that the James tells us the crown isn't bestowed until the man triumphantly endures said temptation and has been tried (tested). It couldn't be more plain -- those who love the Lord are those that obey him. "Why call me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say?"

I can just imagine the kind of relationship I'd have with my wife if all I did was constantly assure her verbally that I love her, but never once followed through with any request, Relationships are much more than a oneway street...

"22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1)

Edited May 22, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

With fear and trembling? If Christ “did it all” then why the fear and trembling? Why work out your own salvation if Christ did it all?

Not a silly question if one is trying to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. That passage is all about doing, doing the will of the Father. If one does not do the will of the Father then how can one have a relationship with God? If you love me keep my commandments? Would you say that is a “silly statement”? So the question again is can we be saved and disobey God? Does the blood of Christ excuse us from not obeying Him? Again I quote once more, and I am not denying a covenant relationship we make with God, I am saying in order to remain in that relationship we must continue to repent as we fall short

So in the above passage does this not define what one must do to have a relationship with God? Why does He say that we must do the will (commandments) of the Father if we are to be built upon a rock? If one does not do the will of the Father then the Lord will say “I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity! Who are the workers of iniquity if not those who do not keep His commandments and do not repent?

Did you not say that one can fall from grace? If I suppose I am born again, if I believe I am sanctified and do not live the commandments then am I still saved? Consider the following:

Again one cannot be saved while in their sins. Thus if one is truly born of God then they do not sin, they keep the commandments and are only saved in as much as they continue to keep His commandments and repent and renew the covenant with God.

We have a relationship if we continue to run the race, if we strive to follow Christ with all our heart might mind and strength. There is no such thing as “instant salvation” we cannot be perfected in the twinkling of an eye. We must finish the course, we must keep the faith (as Paul did)

So if a person has accepted Christ and so is cleansed from sin and then turns around and commits sin, say murder or adultery or steals, is he still clean and holy? Is he unable to fall from grace? Or is he unclean as Peter said like a dog turned to his own vomit?

Why do the commands of God work? Also Christ did the atonement alone but He does not do the works of faith for us. He does not repent for us. He does not endure to the end for us. He does support us with His spirit and He makes it possible for us to endure temptation if we rely on Him and obey His Gospel.

If we rely on His spirit, if we have the gift of the Holy Ghost then how is striving to keep His commandments relying on the “arm of the flesh”? Partaking of the sins of the flesh is relying on the arm of the flesh. Not following Christ and living a Christ-like life.

So what Paul said about “working out our salvation with fear in trembling” is not true?

So what reason would anyone forsake that connection? Is this not saying the same thing as working our own salvation? You again try to position it so that we as LDS do not have a connection to Jesus Christ! Of course we escape the pollutions of the world by the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, through repenting and following Him. If we do not seek the kingdom of God, we will not obtain it.

Yes we could have a whole thread on this, in fact we have almost taken over this thread! Your interpretation of being saved by grace is the difference. It does not say by grace alone. It says by grace are ye saved through faith! Not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Now I ask what is faith? If faith is a mere lip service? Or just a feeling in the heart? Or is it talking about the works of faith? In other words we keep the commandments because of our faith! It is because we love Him is the reason we keep the commandments. The law of Moses was not the end all of salvation, without the atonement of Christ the law is DEAD. But the commandments of God are not limited to the law of Moses. We as LDS are commanded to repent of our sins, we are commanded to be baptized, we are commanded to love the Lord and love our neighbor as ourselves. We are commanded to endure faithfully to the end.

The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible reveals the following:

The following scripture in the Book of Mormon explains how we partake of the grace of God and retain our relationship:

According to LDS doctrine this is the way we follow Christ, it is rather simple, although not too pleasing to the carnal mind, but to those who seek God and His kingdom it is pleasing. There is no boasting here no buying forgiveness to sin or of doing the commandments of ourselves. Without Christ’s atonement there would be no salvation, we cannot do it alone. But Christ while has provided the way the truth and the light, He has not endured to the end for us. He has not kept the faith for us. He made repentance possible, but did not repent for us. He has provided the strait and narrow path but He does not walk it for us. He does provide us with His spirit which helps us endure temptation and leads us into all truth, but He does not compel us to come unto Him… we must exercise our agency and our faith to do so.

Excellent job!

[DBMormon]

I wish one of the many scriptures that were fixed in the BoM, that Joseph would have fixed, the "after all we can do", and left it out.

The verse isn't the issue but the translation. Think of it this way "After all I can do, it ios still grace by which I am saved"

ori am saved

"Notwithstanding all I can do, It is grace by which we are saved"

Irregardless of all we can do, It is grace by which we are saved"

[Tacenda]

The verse isn't the issue but the translation. Think of it this way "After all I can do, it ios still grace by which I am saved"

ori am saved

"Notwithstanding all I can do, It is grace by which we are saved"

Irregardless of all we can do, It is grace by which we are saved"

There are some that are very obsessive and may never feel good enough to be saved or deserve Grace. After all we can do, where does it end?

[teddyaware]

There are some that are very obsessive and may never feel good enough to be saved or deserve Grace. After all we can do, where does it end?

I have an interesting question for you and for the others who've participated on this thread that could cause this discussion to take an extremely interesting turn. In order to see where I'm going with this, you'll need to carefully read the following passages of scripture; and then, after reading these familiar passages, tell us exactly what works did Alma the Younger have to do in order to be redeemed of the Lord and saved? This should be fun!

"12 But I was racked with eternal ^,torment for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.

13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.

14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

15 Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.

16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.

17 And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.

22 Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there." (Alma 36)

And again...

"23 And it came to pass after they had fasted and prayed for the space of two days and two nights, the limbs of Alma received their strength, and he stood up and began to speak unto them, bidding them to be of good comfort:

24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off.

28 Nevertheless, after wading through much tribulation, repenting nigh unto death, the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out of an everlasting burning, and I am born of God.

29 My soul hath been redeemed from the gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity. I was in the darkest abyss; but now I behold the marvelous light of God. My soul was racked with eternal torment; but I am snatched, and my soul is pained no more.

30 I rejected my Redeemer, and denied that which had been spoken of by our fathers; but now that they may foresee that he will come, and that he remembereth every creature of his creating, he will make himself manifest unto all. (Mosiah 27)

.

Edited May 22, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

Without consequences meaning punishment for un-repented sin then there can be no agency. Agency itself consists of two opposing choices, both choices have consequences. If not then there is no meaningful existence. Lehi expresses it far better than I could:

These passages explain how this earth life is a probationary period where we learn to keep the commandments of God. The relationship is real, we are acting and not being acted upon as we choose to follow Christ and deny ourselves of all ungodliness.

I asked about Heaven. Oh well. Not going to ask again.

Really a moot point since you do not believe in saving ordinances anyway. I could give you a quote but of course you would reject it and apply your own interpretation to it. But I will give you the following:

"“And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.”(New Testament | Hebrews 5:4)"

Aaron was called by revelation to a prophet (Moses) and so we believe that a man must be called of God by prophecy and revelation by those in authority. Christ gave His apostles that authority and they ordained others. Although this authority was lost in the falling away or apostasy that occurred after the death of the apostles it was restored to the earth in our day:

That is where LDS authority comes from. Without the priesthood and the saving ordinances then the power of godliness is not manifest in the flesh. Jesus taught the importance of baptism by being baptized Himself and also commanding His disciples to baptize those who believe in Him:

Continued in next post

I asked "Show me where in the NT it states that our relationship isn't legal unless the ordinances are done by someone of Authority?"

You respond by saying it's a moot point based on my lack of belief in LDS faith.

Either it can be demonstrated in the NT or it can't. A reference to Aaron being called by God as a priest, or the great commission doesn't equate to showing what you claim. The only conclusion I can make is that it is not a doctrine derived from the NT.

[teddyaware]

I asked about Heaven. Oh well. Not going to ask again.

I asked "Show me where in the NT it states that our relationship isn't legal unless the ordinances are done by someone of Authority?"

You respond by saying it's a moot point based on my lack of belief in LDS faith.

Either it can be demonstrated in the NT or it can't. A reference to Aaron being called by God as a priest, or the great commission doesn't equate to showing what you claim. The only conclusion I can make is that it is not a doctrine derived from the NT.

Daniel,

I believe that what I would describe as your myopic view of the New Testament (the one based upon your aforementioned salvative template) causes you to miss many obvious things. You seem presumptuous, jumping to conclusions before carefully considering what it is you have to say.

You surely remember that at the time of his ascension, the Lord commissioned his disciples (gave them authority) to preach the gospel to the world and to perform the ordinance of baptism by water upon all those who would receive Christ and his atoning sacrifice.. And so we read:

19 ¶Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28)

A quick overview of Acts unquestionably reveals that one of those important things the Apostles were commanded to teach the people of the world to observe is baptism by water, performed by these self-same commissioned Apostles. And so we read of the following incident that took place on the day of Pentecost:

37 ¶Now when they (those who had heard the gospel message) this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41¶Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

There are more New Testament examples on this point of doctrine, if you would like me to share them with you...

Edited May 22, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

With fear and trembling? If Christ “did it all” then why the fear and trembling? Why work out your own salvation if Christ did it all?

Not a silly question if one is trying to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. That passage is all about doing, doing the will of the Father. If one does not do the will of the Father then how can one have a relationship with God? If you love me keep my commandments? Would you say that is a “silly statement”? So the question again is can we be saved and disobey God? Does the blood of Christ excuse us from not obeying Him? Again I quote once more, and I am not denying a covenant relationship we make with God, I am saying in order to remain in that relationship we must continue to repent as we fall short

So in the above passage does this not define what one must do to have a relationship with God? Why does He say that we must do the will (commandments) of the Father if we are to be built upon a rock? If one does not do the will of the Father then the Lord will say “I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity! Who are the workers of iniquity if not those who do not keep His commandments and do not repent?

Did you not say that one can fall from grace? If I suppose I am born again, if I believe I am sanctified and do not live the commandments then am I still saved? Consider the following:

Again one cannot be saved while in their sins. Thus if one is truly born of God then they do not sin, they keep the commandments and are only saved in as much as they continue to keep His commandments and repent and renew the covenant with God.

I can see the difficulty here. Interpreting the 1 John passage as you do. The question then do you sin? Of course we all do. So, then what is John really saying here? I think the answer is in the greek tense that is used here. (sorry don't have time to look it up) But, the meaning is one who continues to live a life of sin. It doesn't mean believers don't sin at all.

As for the idea of working out our salvation with fear and trembling. The statement is made to believers, who are already saved, right? So, it can only refer to learning and growing in Christ, not salvation.

As for the question, "can we be saved and disobey?" Of course. The very basis of sin is disobedience, and since we weren't saved based on our great and mighty ability to obey, rather our willingness to be in a relationship with him.

As paul states in Titus 3:^{5 "}Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us"

We have a relationship if we continue to run the race, if we strive to follow Christ with all our heart might mind and strength. There is no such thing as “instant salvation” we cannot be perfected in the twinkling of an eye. We must finish the course, we must keep the faith (as Paul did)

So if a person has accepted Christ and so is cleansed from sin and then turns around and commits sin, say murder or adultery or steals, is he still clean and holy? Is he unable to fall from grace? Or is he unclean as Peter said like a dog turned to his own vomit?

Why do the commands of God work? Also Christ did the atonement alone but He does not do the works of faith for us. He does not repent for us. He does not endure to the end for us. He does support us with His spirit and He makes it possible for us to endure temptation if we rely on Him and obey His Gospel.

If we rely on His spirit, if we have the gift of the Holy Ghost then how is striving to keep His commandments relying on the “arm of the flesh”? Partaking of the sins of the flesh is relying on the arm of the flesh. Not following Christ and living a Christ-like life.

So what Paul said about “working out our salvation with fear in trembling” is not true?

So what reason would anyone forsake that connection? Is this not saying the same thing as working our own salvation? You again try to position it so that we as LDS do not have a connection to Jesus Christ! Of course we escape the pollutions of the world by the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, through repenting and following Him. If we do not seek the kingdom of God, we will not obtain it.

The point at which one falls from grace, only God knows. So, I can't answer that question, and really no one can.

I have no idea why one would want to forsake that connection one has with God.

Yes we could have a whole thread on this, in fact we have almost taken over this thread! Your interpretation of being saved by grace is the difference. It does not say by grace alone. It says by grace are ye saved through faith! Not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Now I ask what is faith? If faith is a mere lip service? Or just a feeling in the heart? Or is it talking about the works of faith? In other words we keep the commandments because of our faith! It is because we love Him is the reason we keep the commandments. The law of Moses was not the end all of salvation, without the atonement of Christ the law is DEAD. But the commandments of God are not limited to the law of Moses. We as LDS are commanded to repent of our sins, we are commanded to be baptized, we are commanded to love the Lord and love our neighbor as ourselves. We are commanded to endure faithfully to the end.

The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible reveals the following:

The following scripture in the Book of Mormon explains how we partake of the grace of God and retain our relationship:

According to LDS doctrine this is the way we follow Christ, it is rather simple, although not too pleasing to the carnal mind, but to those who seek God and His kingdom it is pleasing. There is no boasting here no buying forgiveness to sin or of doing the commandments of ourselves. Without Christ’s atonement there would be no salvation, we cannot do it alone. But Christ while has provided the way the truth and the light, He has not endured to the end for us. He has not kept the faith for us. He made repentance possible, but did not repent for us. He has provided the strait and narrow path but He does not walk it for us. He does provide us with His spirit which helps us endure temptation and leads us into all truth, but He does not compel us to come unto Him… we must exercise our agency and our faith to do so.

It appears you are trying to say that "faith" is something we do. Yet, in that passage it plainly states that faith is a gift of God. So, indeed, the verse does state that it we are saved by grace alone.

Again, it appears that the two verses (one from the NT and one from the BoM) have different messages.

[JDave]

danielwoods, my reply might have been lost on the previous page amidst the many responses to your posts. Thank you for your respectful dialogue.

Right. And this is how God works. He changes us from the inside out. He changes our hearts desires first, which changes our will to match his, then this results in the actions that others can see.

I agree with this. I see it as a joint effort. We can't do it without God, and without our trying and striving God can't do it to us. We are to BECOME something new and better. This relationship stuff you are talking about is really good, but all relationships involve more than one person.

Otherwise God is capricious and He chooses who to work within and who not to. I just can't subscribe to that. God loves us all and wants all of us to be saved. If He could, He would have all of us saved. But I think you agree that some will not be saved. Man can't be culpable of his damnation yet not be culpable of his salvation. God made it all possible, but at the point that He lets us choose whether to accept Him or not we are responsible. That responsibility doesn't dissolve as soon as we proclaim for Jesus. God doesn't abrogate our agency and responsibility and suddenly start doing things within us -- unless we are working WITH Him. Then we are growing in our salvation relationship by striving to always accept the ways in which God would change us. The very instance of moving beyond a mere mental nod to Jesus, and taking action to accept Him -- that is the crucible where change is effected. We become as we do, and we do as we become. Faith and works, intertwined. It's Phillip. 2:12 intertwined with Phillip. 2:13. They are intertwined throughout the scriptures, given various degrees of emphasis from place to place, but never to be wrested apart.

[teddyaware]

danielwoods, my reply might have been lost on the previous page amidst the many responses to your posts. Thank you for your respectful dialogue.

I agree with this. I see it as a joint effort. We can't do it without God, and without our trying and striving God can't do it to us. We are to BECOME something new and better. This relationship stuff you are talking about is really good, but all relationships involve more than one person.

Otherwise God is capricious and He chooses who to work within and who not to. I just can't subscribe to that. God loves us all and wants all of us to be saved. If He could, He would have all of us saved. But I think you agree that some will not be saved. Man can't be culpable of his damnation yet not be culpable of his salvation. God made it all possible, but at the point that He lets us choose whether to accept Him or not we are responsible. That responsibility doesn't dissolve as soon as we proclaim for Jesus. God doesn't abrogate our agency and responsibility and suddenly start doing things within us -- unless we are working WITH Him. Then we are growing in our salvation relationship by striving to always accept the ways in which God would change us. The very instance of moving beyond a mere mental nod to Jesus, and taking action to accept Him -- that is the crucible where change is effected. We become as we do, and we do as we become. Faith and works, intertwined. It's Phillip. 2:12 intertwined with Phillip. 2:13. They are intertwined throughout the scriptures, given various degrees of emphasis from place to place, but never to be wrested apart.

Very good analysis.

[cdowis]

I asked "Show me where in the NT it states that our relationship isn't legal unless the ordinances are done by someone of Authority?"

Just curious, how would you interpret Christ's words to Peter

Mattt 16 [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: andwhatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The LDS would interpret these keys as the priesthood authority which were conferred on the Twelve when Christ ordained them.

Edited May 22, 2013 by cdowis

[danielwoods]

I agree with this. I see it as a joint effort. We can't do it without God, and without our trying and striving God can't do it to us. We are to BECOME something new and better. This relationship stuff you are talking about is really good, but all relationships involve more than one person.

Otherwise God is capricious and He chooses who to work within and who not to. I just can't subscribe to that. God loves us all and wants all of us to be saved. If He could, He would have all of us saved. But I think you agree that some will not be saved. Man can't be culpable of his damnation yet not be culpable of his salvation. God made it all possible, but at the point that He lets us choose whether to accept Him or not we are responsible. That responsibility doesn't dissolve as soon as we proclaim for Jesus. God doesn't abrogate our agency and responsibility and suddenly start doing things within us -- unless we are working WITH Him. Then we are growing in our salvation relationship by striving to always accept the ways in which God would change us. The very instance of moving beyond a mere mental nod to Jesus, and taking action to accept Him -- that is the crucible where change is effected. We become as we do, and we do as we become. Faith and works, intertwined. It's Phillip. 2:12 intertwined with Phillip. 2:13. They are intertwined throughout the scriptures, given various degrees of emphasis from place to place, but never to be wrested apart.

As far as salvation goes, we have nothing to add. As far as rewards (which are after salvation) and growing to be more like him, he works in us as we allow him.

The reason we have nothing to add to our salvation is because we were dead in our sins. We were helpless. He made us alive and set us free from the power of sin, something we were powerless to do.

[danielwoods]

As to your statement in the first paragraph above, please reread what I've said before on the subject. I see no use in going around and around on this one, as I've already made my case. We'll just have to agree to disagree

Even though James plainly and unambiguously says "blessed is the man that endureth temptation, for when he is tried he shall receive the crown of life," you refuse to acknowledge the fact that the James tells us the crown isn't bestowed until the man triumphantly endures said temptation and has been tried (tested). It couldn't be more plain -- those who love the Lord are those that obey him. "Why call me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say?"

I can just imagine the kind of relationship I'd have with my wife if all I did was constantly assure her verbally that I love her, but never once followed through with any request, Relationships are much more than a oneway street...

"22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1)

Where have I refused to acknowledge the fact that the crown of life isn't bestowed until the end? I haven't said anything of the sort.

What I said is that, James is plainly stating that the crown of life is given to all who love him. By implication all who love him must also be all who endure to the end, and who is also a doer of the word, etc. Because of his love that works inside us.

You separate them, I do not. My goal is to read the passage as it was intended, and all the requirements that you emphasize are tied to that love relationship not separated. Those who are connected to God in relationship do those things out of that love. There is no separation, there is no authority or ordinance needed only connection to God directly.

[danielwoods]

There are some that are very obsessive and may never feel good enough to be saved or deserve Grace. After all we can do, where does it end?

I don't think there can be an end. When are you done doing all you can do?

[danielwoods]

Daniel,

I believe that what I would describe as your myopic view of the New Testament (the one based upon your aforementioned salvative template) causes you to miss many obvious things. You seem presumptuous, jumping to conclusions before carefully considering what it is you have to say.

You surely remember that at the time of his ascension, the Lord commissioned his disciples (gave them authority) to preach the gospel to the world and to perform the ordinance of baptism by water upon all those who would receive Christ and his atoning sacrifice.. And so we read:

19 ¶Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28)

A quick overview of Acts unquestionably reveals that one of those important things the Apostles were commanded to teach the people of the world to observe is baptism by water, performed by these self-same commissioned Apostles. And so we read of the following incident that took place on the day of Pentecost:

37 ¶Now when they (those who had heard the gospel message) this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41¶Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

There are more New Testament examples on this point of doctrine, if you would like me to share them with you...

Your point is what? That the baptism ordinance is necessary for our salvation?

Please point a verse which states that.

The NT describes baptism as a symbolic action we do to proclaim our commitment to him in a public manner. However, just like a marriage ceremony, the relationship or connection that saves us is already established, that is why we go through the public ceremony.

[JDave]

You didn't really address my logic. You just restated your position. I actually quite interested in your view on the juxtaposition of Phillipians 2:12 and 2:13, as well as how man can be culpable for damnation yet not salvation.

As far as salvation goes, we have nothing to add.

If we truly have zero to add to salvation then there are only two options for anyone to be saved (that I can see)

1. God saves everyone

2. God chooses certain people to save and certain people not to save

As far as rewards (which are after salvation) and growing to be more like him, he works in us as we allow him.

I think I agree with this, but you make it sound so passive on our part. As long as we don't actively fight God, then He will make us wonderful and amazing -- and we can just sit back and allow it to happen! Why even refer to it as a reward?

The reason we have nothing to add to our salvation is because we were dead in our sins. We were helpless. He made us alive and set us free from the power of sin, something we were powerless to do.

If man is truly that depraved, then salvation becomes somewhat meaningless for me. It sounds like you're saying that God created man, but since His creation is in an utterly depraved state God chose to rescue them -- like rescuing an unconcious kitten out of a burning building.

I agree that there are things we are incapable of, barriers that we cannot overcome, and heights that we simply cannot ascend. But we are not utterly helpless in every regard. We are not dependent on the caprice of God to choose whether to pluck us out of that burning building (or not, according to His desires). We are not unconcious; we are very aware of what is going on and we have the power to choose to accept God's outstretched hands and we have the power to physically reach out with our own hands to grasp God's hands. I believe God's hands are outstretched to each and every one of His children. The way is prepared so that we may take hold and walk with God. And God entreats us to do so, knowing that the power is within us, within you and me. If it were not then all the exhortations in the scriptures would be pointless. Salvation itself would be pointless and meaningless.

[Tacenda]

I don't think there can be an end. When are you done doing all you can do?

Some out there believe the LDS are on a hamster wheel while trying to do all they can do in order to be saved. I guess the other way of looking at it is to say one is so grateful for being saved when they accepted the gift by faith and in turn want to live as Jesus would want them to, but doing this freely, not as a means to be saved.

[Lightbearer]

I asked about Heaven. Oh well. Not going to ask again.

I apologize, I do not know what you are asking, if you could restate it (you were right these posts are getting hard to answer all in one post) Are you asking if we had agency in heaven (the premortal life)? If so the answer is yes. Dp you mean do we continue to have agency after death? I would say yes. We always have agency. The point I was trying to make was that there are always consequences to agency that is why one third of the hosts of heaven were cast out with Lucifer (Satan) in the war in heaven.

I asked "Show me where in the NT it states that our relationship isn't legal unless the ordinances are done by someone of Authority?"

You respond by saying it's a moot point based on my lack of belief in LDS faith.

Either it can be demonstrated in the NT or it can't. A reference to Aaron being called by God as a priest, or the great commission doesn't equate to showing what you claim. The only conclusion I can make is that it is not a doctrine derived from the NT.

The reference to Aaron being called of God is the same as Peter, or Paul or anyone else, I was pointing out that it must be done by revelation from God, that priesthood must be confired by someone who has it (Moses in the case of Aaron). That is why I linked Joseph Smith history to show where our claim to authority comes from, angelic messengers, John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John. We do not just point to a passage to the Bible and pretend that is where our authority comes from it must be restored since it was lost. But if you like I will quote some more that allude to the necessity for authority. As was already mentioned on this thread by someone else mentioned the following:

"He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

(New Testament | Matthew 16:15-19)

What were these keys if not priesthood power?

Again the following:

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

(New Testament | John 15:16)

So the Lord calls His own servants. Does this address the question?

[teddyaware]

Your point is what? That the baptism ordinance is necessary for our salvation?

Please point a verse which states that.

The NT describes baptism as a symbolic action we do to proclaim our commitment to him in a public manner. However, just like a marriage ceremony, the relationship or connection that saves us is already established, that is why we go through the public ceremony.

Weren't you the one who wanted to see examples from the New Testament of commissioned servants of the Lord who were chosen and authorized by Him and to perform the ordinances of the gospel?

In answer to your question as to whether or not baptism is essential to salvation, I offer the following:

14 ¶Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16)

[DBMormon]

There are some that are very obsessive and may never feel good enough to be saved or deserve Grace. After all we can do, where does it end?

Tacenda your missing the point I am making. Nephi wasn't saying AFTER all we can do, then grace saves us

rather he was saying "inspite of all the things we are asked and try to do, we better recognize that in all the doing and trying it is still his grace, we are saved by.

The word after can have multiple meanings and unfortunately we are drawn to the looking at after in a way that doesn't fit the chapter.