Brad Wilcox'S View On Grace

[Yep]

In order to reach exaltation, one will need to do good works he can not do on his own. To do so he must do it through God's Grace or enabling power.

I think that this is incorrect. Our position in Heaven comes from what we can do on our own. This is why we achieve one degree of glory or another.

The atonement places us in a position to be of value and not simply be paying off our debt. It seems that your position is a transition of debt and not a true remission. We cannot become perfect on our own. We need the enabling power of God, but we do need to do it ourselves. Christ and God show us the way and assist us when needed, but it is a path we must walk much of, not solely be carried. Achieving true exaltation is to show that we are capable of doing what must be done ourselves. It is showing that we are worthy of the responsibility and trust of such a position.

[DBMormon]

Luke 18:

¹⁸ A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

¹⁹ “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. ²⁰ You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’^[a]”

²¹ “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

²² When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

then right after Peter asked him about how if not the rich man then how would any make it - he answered "with God all things are possible"

Unless you are a general authority, you are bound by statements of the Brethren. And the Brethren are bound by the correlation program. And as a bishop you are duty bound by your stake president and his direct line.

At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”⁵ President Clark, quoted earlier, observed: - Elder Christofferson

I really wonder about this. You say you have permission from the highest level to do this? Whom might that be?

Didn't say I had permission, only that I made them aware and as of yet have not been asked to stop

Do you have any authorities to suggest that the Abrahamic Covenant doesn't apply? I have lots more quotes to give you. Should I continue? Do you agree with what is being said in my quotes, or disagree?

you will have to share and define your understanding for the abrahamic covenant and what scriptures you use to reference that, and Then once we agree then I can go further. It must be apples to apples.

I hope you don't get upset with my challenges. This topic usually doesn't interest me but I have spent a productive Sunday thinking about your points and researching them, when I could have instead been watching basketball. So, you're doing something to help save a brother.

your welcome for what ever that entails even if only a rolled ankle

[DBMormon]

I think that this is incorrect. Our position in Heaven comes from what we can do on our own. This is why we achieve one degree of glory or another.

The atonement places us in a position to be of value and not simply be paying off our debt. It seems that your position is a transition of debt and not a true remission. We cannot become perfect on our own. We need the enabling power of God, but we do need to do it ourselves. Christ and God show us the way and assist us when needed, but it is a path we must walk much of, not solely be carried. Achieving true exaltation is to show that we are capable of doing what must be done ourselves. It is showing that we are worthy of the responsibility and trust of such a position.

I would disagree completely that we do it ourselves

[Bob Crockett]

you will have to share and define your understanding for the abrahamic covenant and what scriptures you use to reference that, and Then once we agree then I can go further. It must be apples to apples.

Let's start with how MIchael WIlcox describes it, as I have outlined above. Do you agree with Bro. Wilcox?

Michael Wilcox published an article in the January 1998 Ensign, entitled "The Abrahamic Covenant," where Bro. Wilcox tells us that we must "Do the Works of Abraham."

Quoting from Moses 5:11, Bro. Wilcox tells us that "eternal life" is available "unto all the obedient." He talks about the nature of the covenant. "Every covenant involves two parties." As far as members of the Church are concerned, the blessings of exaltation under the covenant are available "inasmuch as we are willing to enter “into my law. … But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father," again citing scriptures.

If you don't feel like being put on the spot, simply say so and I'll move on. But this thread is about Bro. Wilcox. I assert that you have completely misread him. He is a hard-core orthodox Latter-day Saint who emphasizes Christ's role in the Abrahamic Covenant, but his talks to the youth are firm in the need to earn God's grace through keeping the commandments. Once you are willing to engage me with this particular nugget, I have more.

Millet, I admit, is more unorthodox but I pointed you to his reference where he said he didn't think his position was the Church's. With that kind of disclaimer nobody's going to complain, but nobody in leadership will authorize him to prepare podcasts and handouts for "all leaders" of the Church, as you claim.

So, you think that all those quotes I gave you yesterday and today fabout the Abrahamic Covenant from the various presidents of the church and apostles are just men speaking as non-prophets? Can you please take a specific position rather than speak in generalities? You challenged me to come up with quotes; I have done so.

I'm curious -- could you speak to your educational attainments? I realize you're a convert, but how far did you get in school? Have you taken institute classes?

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[DBMormon]

Does the D&C have very many scriptures alluding to Grace?

D&C

D&C 19:11-18

followed up by D&C 88:21

D&C 20:30-34

D&C 137:9

Pearl of Great Price

Abraham 3:25

New Testament

Galatians 3:24

Galatians 2:20-21

2nd Corinthians 12:7-10

Romans 14:1-8

Romans 11:27-32

Romans 10:9-13,

Romans 10:3

Romans 8:6-14

Romans 8:1-4

Romans 6:14-19

Romans 5:1-9 &17-19

Romans 4:3-5, 16, 24-25

Romans 3:7-12, 20 -end of chapter

Romans 2:11-15

More BOM

Alma 5:12-15, 26, 28 through the end

[DBMormon]

Quoting from Moses 5:11, Bro. Wilcox tells us that "eternal life" is available "unto all the obedient." He talks about the nature of the covenant. "Every covenant involves two parties." As far as members of the Church are concerned, the blessings of exaltation under the covenant are available "inasmuch as we are willing to enter “into my law. … But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father," again citing scriptures.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

Agreed - with the stipulation that I am assuming obedience to the law of the gospel. Also I completely get that we we need to learn to submit ourselves completly to Christ, that it is a process, and that it will assuredly not be a completed process till the other side sometime into eternity.

[DBMormon]

Let's start with how MIchael WIlcox describes it, as I have outlined above. Do you agree with Bro. Wilcox?

If you don't feel like being put on the spot, simply say so and I'll move on. But this thread is about Bro. Wilcox. I assert that you have completely misread him. He is a hard-core orthodox Latter-day Saint who emphasizes Christ's role in the Abrahamic Covenant, but his talks to the youth are firm in the need to earn God's grace through keeping the commandments. Once you are willing to engage me with this particular nugget, I have more.

For the record Michael Wilcox and Brad Wilcox are different people. Also they are not related

Edited May 13, 2013 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

I'm curious -- could you speak to your educational attainments? I realize you're a convert, but how far did you get in school? Have you taken institute classes?

My education is not of relevance. because it seems vital to you I will add - I am well read, have an IQ in the 130's. I have spent my last 17 years studying the gospel and reading the scriptures. I have read 100's of books on church history and Doctrine and continually listen to talks of leaders on my mp3 player as I drive around for work. beyond that I attended a secondary school for less time then a lawyer needs to.

Also again you misquote bro. Millet

He does not claim his view is different then the church, just simply he is not speaking for the church - those are not the same

You also seem to be unaware that Brad Wilcox is on the general sunday school board, that Bro Millet has assisted the church in relations between LDS and Evangelicals and that neither are rogue dissidents. While you argue their views are out there, I could actually argue they have the Church's backing in what they do.

Edited May 13, 2013 by DBMormon

[teddyaware]

Humility statements, while great and wonderful in some respects, fall short in overall understanding by those who hear them. I believe that it was Elder Holland's talk in April that addressed this. We must acknowledge our weakness, we must acknowledge our position in relation to the Father and the Son. This doesn't impact who we are our what our potential is, nor what we can, and do, do. We need to acknowledge our strengths and ability as well as our weakness. We are children of the divine. We can become joint heirs with Christ to all the Father has. We are divine in our true nature.

I believe it's likely one of the main reasons why the Latter-day Saints have a difficult time explaining Paul's doctrine of "salvation by grace alone through faith" is because we misunderstand 2 Nephi 25:23, wherein Nephi testifies:

"23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Many LDS interpret this scripture without factoring in other clarifying scriptures on the same subject to inform them as to its actual meaning. The mistaken understanding of 2 Nephi 25:23 might go like this:

"God will give us saving grace through the atonement of Christ, but only after we prove to him through our most diligent efforts and assiduous labors we are indeed worthy of that salvative power"

I believe a more accurate interpretation is as follows:

"Through the atonement of Christ, God can only save us by his grace; but we must do all that we can do through living faith to obtain that saving grace (his divine power and assistance) every step of the way on our journey toward eternal perfection."

So grace does not come as a crowning capstone at the end of a series of diligent human labors, but it is meant to be an ever-present divine extension of spiritual empowerment and salvative blessings to his children every step of the way.

How does this work in practical terms? It's very simple. According to Nephi, we must first come to believe in Christ through study and prayer (God isn't going to study and pray for us). Then, after and gaining a testimony through a gracious outpuring of personal revelation from God through the Spirit, we must come to be reconciled to God through the atonement by a) repenting of our sins, b) obeying the commandment to be baptised in water, c) obeying the commandment to be confirmed a member of Christ's Church and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, d) enduring in the faith of Christ to the end.

God isn't going to repent, be baptised, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and endure in faith to the end for us. These things are some of what we must do in order to obtain saving grace, but that saving grace follows, blesses, and empowers the true disciple of Christ every step of the way -- it doesn't come to us after doing a long series of "righteous works." Rather, grace blesses, empowers and enables every step of the way. John, in D&C 93, describes the process this way:

"12 And I, John, saw that he (Christ) received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;" (D&C 93)

So the Saviour himself received grace (additional divine empowerment) each time he used the grace he already possessed to bless himself and others. And so by continuing to diligently utilize the measure of the gifts and powers of God he already possessed, in order to be a blessing to others, he received greater and greater endowments of grace (divine empowerment) until he received a fullness, whereby he could successfully accomplish the atoning sacrifice; and this followed by an outpouring of an eternal fulness of grace in the resurrection and ascension to glorious exaltation.

Speaking of how we are expected to follow in his footsteps in the same manner, the Saviour goes on to say:

"19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments (i.e. do all you can do to obtain an ongoing outpouring of grace) you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace." (D&C 93)

Finally, be it known that a continuous, ongoing outpouring of grace is so important in the eyes of God that none of the works we do can be considered works of righteousness unless the grace of God (divine empowerment) is already within us...

"24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God." (Moroni 10)

So in order to be found righteous in the eyes of God, his saving grace needs to be within us every step of the way. Ever present indwelling divine grace is so essential that God testifies we can only perform good works if the gifts and powers of God are already present within us. Indeed, we are saved by grace alone through faith (i.e. faith is the all we can do part).

Edited May 13, 2013 by teddyaware

[DBMormon]

I believe it's likely one of the main reasons why the Latter-day Saints have a difficult time explaining Paul's doctrine of "salvation by grace alone through faith" is because we misunderstand 2 Nephi 25:23, wherein Nephi testifies:

"23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Many LDS interpret this scripture without factoring in other clarifying scriptures on the same subject to inform them as to its actual meaning. The mistaken understanding of 2 Nephi 25:23 might go like this:

"God will give us saving grace through the atonement of Christ, but only after we prove to him through our most diligent efforts and assiduous labors we are indeed worthy of that salvative power"

I believe a more accurate interpretation is as follows:

"Through the atonement of Christ, God can only save us by his grace; but we must do all that we can do, through living faith, to obtain that saving grace (his divine power and assistance) every step of the way on our journey toward eternal perfection."

So grace does not come as a crowning capstone at the end of a series of diligent human labors, but it is meant to be an ever present divine extension of spiritual empowerment and salvative blessings to his children every step of the way.

How does this work in practical terms? It's very simple. According to Nephi, we must first come to believe in Christ through study and prayer (God isn't going to study and pray for us). Then, after and gaining a testimony through a gracious outpuring of personal revelation from God through the Spirit, we must come to be reconciled to God through the atonement by a) repenting of our sins, b) obeying the commandment to be baptised in water, c) obeying the commandment to be confirmed a member of Christ's Church and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, d) enduring in the faith of Christ to the end.

God isn't going to repent, be baptised, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and endure in faith to the end for us. These things are some of what we must do in order to obtain saving grace, but that saving grace follows, blesses, and empowers the true disciple of Christ every step of the way. It doesn't come to us after doing a long series of "righteous works." Rather, grace blesses, empowers and enables every step of the way. John in D&C 93 describes the process this way:

"12 And I, John, saw that he (Christ) received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;" (D&C 93)

So the Saviour himself received grace (additional divine empowerment) each time he used the grace he possessed to bless himself and others. And so by continuing to diligently utilize the measure of the gifts and powers of God he already possessed, in order to be a blessing to others, he received greater and greater endowments of grace (divine empowerment) until he received a fullness, whereby he could successfully accomplish the atoning sacrifice; and this followed by an outpouring of an eternal fulness of grace in the resurrection and ascension to glorious exaltation.

Speaking of how we are expected to follow in his footsteps in the the same, the Saviour goes on to say:

"19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments (i.e. do all you can do to obtain an ongoing outpouring of grace) you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace." (D&C 93)

Finally, be it known that a continuous, ongoing outpouring of grace is so important in the eyes of God that none of the works we do can be considered works of righteousness unless the grace of God (divine empowerment) is already within us...

"24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God." (Moroni 10)

So in order to be found righteous in the eyes of God, his saving grace needs to be within us every step of the way. Ever present indwelling divine grace is so essential that God testifies we can only perform good works if the gifts and powers of God are already present within us. Indeed, we are saved by grace alone through faith (i.e. faith is the all we can do part).

I like most of this a lot and see most of this through the same lens

[Bob Crockett]

Oops; you are right about the Wilcoxes. I knew that at one time a few days ago but have forgotten it. Sorry. And I do know Brad personally. He came to my stake for a youth conference, I introduced myself and he noted that my brother was a publisher of his writings.

I am not misquoting Millet.

I recall you telling others on Staylds.com that your IQ is 140. How does one figure out one's IQ these days? How interesting. I've never heard such a claim in the back and forth on the boards. I think my IQ, unfortunately, is around 115 but my recollection of that assessment is, alas, in the distant past. But, I think educational attainment has some relevance here, and whether you've had any educational courses about the church other than in the 3-hour block. Attended a secondary school? You mean, you did not graduate from high school?

The Seminary and Institute programs place a whale of a lot of emphasis upon covenants and the Abrahamic Covenant. I can start quoting from current Institute Manuals if you tell me you're willing to respond to such quotes.

I am certainly aware the Brad Wilcox is on the General Sunday School Board. As I have pointed out in a prior post, Bro. Wilcox takes the position that being "Saved by Grace" means nothing more than joining the Church. In his most recent book, he points out that after being so saved, there's a lot more commandment-keeping to do.

I guess I will continue to despair about my collection of quotes given you. Well, I got something out of them.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[Bob Crockett]

I believe it's likely one of the main reasons why the Latter-day Saints have a difficult time explaining Paul's doctrine of "salvation by grace alone through faith" is because we misunderstand 2 Nephi 25:23, wherein Nephi testifies:

. . .

So in order to be found righteous in the eyes of God, his saving grace needs to be within us every step of the way. Ever present indwelling divine grace is so essential that God testifies we can only perform good works if the gifts and powers of God are already present within us. Indeed, we are saved by grace alone through faith (i.e. faith is the all we can do part).

No, the Saints don't misunderstand it. As I point out above from the TPJS, Joseph Smith mentioned the two different threads of "salvation by grace" in Protestantism and rejected both.

Again, like Bro. Reel, you're willing to confuse God's daily grace with the final saving grace of exaltation. They are not the same thing. That final saving grace requires, under the Abrahamic Covenant, that we keep the commandments. Mandatory, merit-based, a rewards system. "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idoloters, and whosever loveth and maketh a lie." (Rev. 22:12-15.) Of course, in these closing comments in the Bible, the "tree of life" is eternal life" and the "gates of the city" is the New Jerusalem, or the Celestial Kingdom (or its Millenial equivalent).

Seems that under this scenario, one can have faith in Christ and still be a dog outside the gates of the city. The only thing keeping one from being a god is commandment-keeping, I imagine. Edited to add: Oops, not "god" but "dog." Sorry.

If you continue to make this personal and demand answers to questions that aren't your business you will be removed from the thread or the board. This is your second and last warning.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[teddyaware]

I like most of this a lot and see most of this through the same lens

Point out where we might differ and we'll se if we can come to an understanding.

[T-Shirt]

I believe completely in being saved by grace. However, in my opinion, grace cannot be separated from covenant. Works of the covenant, of themselves cannot save, but keeping the covenant allows the grace to save. If it were possible for someone to do the works required of the covenant, without actually making the covenant, grace could have no effect on them. Here is something I wrote, (a little hastily, so it is not perfect) that, I think, helps express my point of view, for what it's worth:

A man of great wealth had four sons. He gathered them together and explained that he was going to leave for a long time. He explained that upon his return, his desire was to give each one a business that would be as great as the one the father owned. The conditions he set were that, in order to qualify, each son must enter into an agreement that he would work for his company and go to school and earn a two year associates degree of his own choosing.

The first son would not enter into the agreement, thinking that he would far exceed the conditions set and could prove his worthiness on his own.

The second son would not enter into the agreement, thinking that he did not want to work at his father's business, but would start his own business and be just as successful.

The third son eagerly entered into the agreement.

The fourth son entered into the agreement, but felt inadequate because, although he was a hard worker, he was not a good student and didn't think he would be capable of earning the degree.

In the case of the first son, he worked hard. He worked in one of his his father's companies and became a prominent leader in the company. He not only earned his associates degree, but went on to a bachelors, a masters and a PhD.

The second son earned his associates degree and after several years of trying to run his own business, decided to write a letter to his father asking if he could still enter into the original agreement. His request was granted and the agreement was signed. The son went to work for his father at an entry level position making minimum wage.

The third son, who signed the original agreement went on to work at his father's company but never got around to earning the associates degree. He felt that, surely, his father would recognize he was a good family man, with many obligations. He was a leader in his community, a hard worker and was well respected. He felt that the experience he gained would more than make up for the associates degree, which he didn't feel would have made that much difference anyway.

The fourth son, who also signed the original agreement worked at his father's company and enrolled in college to earn his associated degree. After four years of trying his best, but flunking out of college, he decided he just wasn't capable and considered leaving his father's company. He recognized that the agreement with his father required that he not only work for the company but that he, also, earn the degree. However, he remembered his father's encouragement to never give up, no matter how hard life seems to be. He re-enrolled in college and, while working for his father's business, spent the next twenty years earning his associates degree, graduating with a "D" average.

Upon the father's return, sons number one and three were denied their inheritance while sons two and four were granted theirs.

Son number one did not understand that he could never do enough on his own to measure up to owning his father's business and he did not understand the importance of the agreement. Without the agreement, no accomplishment, however great, could be considered. He thought that doing and exceeding all that his father asked would earn the inheritance.

Son number two eventually understood that he didn't have to be an overachiever, only that he needed to trust his father would keep his word. He recognized that entering the agreement and doing the smallest part was sufficient. He was willing to work hard, at a lower wage and position, while trusting in his father's good will.

Son number three got off to a good start and was always a good person and a good worker. He didn't understand that his father's generosity was tied to the agreement. He thought that his father would surely overlook the fact that he didn't earn the degree. He understood that he needed to rely on his father's kindness, as he couldn't fully measure up on his own, but he lost sight of the need to keep his part of the agreement

Son number four, though he often failed and was not very good at school work, endured faithfully in doing all the agreement asked of him. He never gave up. He eventually came to understand that he his father's kindness was sufficient for him to rely upon if he would just keep his end of the agreement, even if it took him his whole life.

Ultimately, it was the grace of the father that would have allowed any of these four to receive his inheritance.

Number one was like those who focus intently on keeping commandments thinking they can earn their way.

Number three was like those who focus intently on grace , thinking that grace is all that is needed and they can then overlook some of the details.

Number two and four came to understand that while their inheritance was only available as a result of the grace of the father, their father's grace was inextricably tied to the agreement. The agreement required work, but ultimately, as the work was never going to be sufficient by itself, it was the grace that enabled them to receive the inheritance.

Edited May 13, 2013 by T-Shirt

[Bob Crockett]

From The OT Seminary Student Study Guide, Genesis Chapter 17:

A covenant is an agreement between two parties where both parties promise to do certain things. In a gospel covenant, God always sets the terms, or what must be done and received as part of the covenant, and man agrees to obey those terms.

There are four basic categories of blessings in the Abrahamic covenant: land, posterity, priesthood and gospel, and salvation.

Missionary Preparation Student Manual, Chapter 1

We have received, as did they of old, the holy priesthood and the everlasting gospel. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are our ancestors. We are of Israel. We have the right to receive the gospel, blessings of the priesthood, and eternal life. [Emphasis added.]

Chapter 2: By obeying the commandments and fulfilling these covenants, we are sanctified, purified, and born of the Spirit. We become vessels worthy of receiving the Holy Spirit and the accompanying gifts of the Spirit that must attend this work if we are to succeed. [Emphasis added.]

Preach My Gospel

p. 72: "Obedience to the commandments brings us peace in this life and eternal life in the world to come." "He expects us to obey Him so He can bless us."

p. 82: "Help new members recognize that by keeping God’s laws, they will retain a remission of their sins and stay on the pathway to eternal life."

p. 88: If we endure to the end of our lives in being true to our covenants, we will receive eternal life. A few members do not endure or remain fully active. However, enduring to the end is a personal responsibility. We “work out [our] own salvation” (Philippians 2:12)."

p. 5: By His Atonement and Resurrection, all men will be lifted up to stand before Christ to be judged

of their works, whether they be good or evil. Those who exercise faith in Christ, repent of their sins, and are baptized in Christ’s name can be sanctified by the Holy Ghost. If they endure to the end, they will stand spotless before Christ at the last day and will enter into the rest of the Lord.

p. 53: God rewards us according to our works and desires. Because God rewards everyone according to deeds done in the body, there are different kingdoms of glory to which we may be assigned after the Judgment. Those who have repented of their sins and received the ordinances of the gospel and kept the associated covenants will be cleansed by the Atonement of Christ. They will receive exaltation in the highest kingdom, also known as the celestial kingdom. They will live in God’s presence, become like Him, and receive a fulness of joy. They will live together for eternity with those of their family who qualify.

p. 59: We will receive our eternal reward based on whether our works and desires have been good or evil. [Emphasis added.]

p. 66: [W]e must exert every effort to stay on the path. We do so by continually exercising faith in Jesus Christ, repenting, making commitments, and following the Spirit. Once we have been forgiven of our sins, we should try every day to remain free from sin so that we can always have the Holy Ghost with us. In the covenant of baptism, we promise our Father in Heaven that we will obey His commandments for the rest of our lives. If we fall short, we must repent in order to retain the blessings of the covenant. We promise to do good works, serve others, and follow the Savior’s example. In the scriptures this lifelong commitment is often called “enduring to the end.”

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[DBMormon]

Oops; you are right about the Wilcoxes. I knew that at one time a few days ago but have forgotten it. Sorry. And I do know Brad personally. He came to my stake for a youth conference, I introduced myself and he noted that my brother was a publisher of his writings.

I am not misquoting Millet.

I recall you telling others on Staylds.com that your IQ is 140. How does one figure out one's IQ these days? How interesting. I've never heard such a claim in the back and forth on the boards. I think my IQ, unfortunately, is around 115 but my recollection of that assessment is, alas, in the distant past. But, I think educational attainment has some relevance here, and whether you've had any educational courses about the church other than in the 3-hour block. Attended a secondary school? You mean, you did not graduate from high school?

The Seminary and Institute programs place a whale of a lot of emphasis upon covenants and the Abrahamic Covenant. I can start quoting from current Institute Manuals if you tell me you're willing to respond to such quotes.

I am certainly aware the Brad Wilcox is on the General Sunday School Board. As I have pointed out in a prior post, Bro. Wilcox takes the position that being "Saved by Grace" means nothing more than joining the Church. In his most recent book, he points out that after being so saved, there's a lot more commandment-keeping to do.

I guess I will continue to despair about my collection of quotes given you. Well, I got something out of them.

This will be the last time I address you. Again you are off base.

1.) You say it was said in Staylds, it was actually in newordermormon

2.) I have had two formal IQ tests and one informal (online - not regulated) Scores (low 140's, high 130's, and high 120's. The 120's was the informal one but it is also a fact that IQ decreases with age. You can read into that what ever you like. I shared my high on NOM and the average here. say what you want, it's a fact. Not sure if my school record still exists but I would be happy to provide evidence (we both take a online test together and publish our scores here) of course for the sake of honesty you are free to meet me at your expense. I have no qualms about taking one.

Also you assume by secondary I didn't graduate high school? how do you come up with the stuff you say. Sorry your wrong once again. I attended a major university. majored in Elementary education with a minor in History and English. I work in Sales now.

Respond all you want, your ignored by me from here on. Besides I CFR'd you at least three times earlier and as usual you never defend your defamatory comments.

I wish you luck

Edited May 13, 2013 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

Point out where we might differ and we'll se if we can come to an understanding.

The only difference is if you would extend your comments to state that good works, keeping commandments are required, necessary, and essential?

[Bob Crockett]

Also you assume by secondary I didn't graduate high school? how do you come up with the stuff you say. Sorry your wrong once again. I attended a major university. majored in Elementary education with a minor in History and English. I work in Sales now.

Respond all you want, your ignored by me from here on. Besides I CFR'd you at least three times earlier and as usual you never defend your defamatory comments.

I wish you luck

Well, I'm sorry. Keep at it.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[danielwoods]

Where does Christ ever say that we do not need to keep the commandments to be saved? LDS are not trying to "earn our way" without Christ, that is impossible. But through Christ and His infinite atonement we are enabled to keep His commandments even Paul said so:

Does this not say that with God's help we can overcome our sins, rather than save us in our sins?

Salvation is based on being reconciled to God, which Christ did completely when he was on the cross. He declared, "it is finished". The price had been paid in full for our salvation. "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." Christ did that. He paid the price.

So, the idea that more needs to be done to pay the price for our sin is foreign to the NT. As Paul asked the Galatians, "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (gal 3:2) Rather, the formula used in the NT is Christ saves us while we are still sinners, and then because of our experience with him through the spirit, he changes us from the inside out. And again, Paul in Colosians 2:20: "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

No where in the NT does it say we earn our relationship with God, our way to the highest heaven, even with Christ we don't earn it. It is given to us. We are adopted into the family.

[teddyaware]

No, the Saints don't misunderstand it. As I point out above from the TPJS, Joseph Smith mentioned the two different threads of "salvation by grace" in Protestantism and rejected both.

Again, like Bro. Reel, you're willing to confuse God's daily grace with the final saving grace of exaltation. They are not the same thing. That final saving grace requires, under the Abrahamic Covenant, that we keep the commandments. Mandatory, merit-based, a rewards system. "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idoloters, and whosever loveth and maketh a lie." (Rev. 22:12-15.) Of course, in these closing comments in the Bible, the "tree of life" is eternal life" and the "gates of the city" is the New Jerusalem, or the Celestial Kingdom (or its Millenial equivalent).

Seems that under this scenario, one can have faith in Christ and still be a dog outside the gates of the city. The only thing keeping one from being a god is commandment-keeping, I imagine. Edited to add: Oops, not "god" but "dog." Sorry.

If you continue to make this personal and demand answers to questions that aren't your business you will be removed from the thread or the board. This is your second and last warning.

I can superimpose your ideas on salvation onto mine and make them harmonize without any difficulty at all. Therefore, I presume you missed my point. My main focus on the post you disagree with is that Moroni teaches us that goodness and good works cannot exist apart from the powers and gifts of God being present within the doer of righteousness.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God. (Moroni 7)

Anytime anyone does good, it is inspired of God by by virtue of the atonement of Christ.

24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them. (Moroni 7)

Without the atonement of Christ, not one good thing could come into the life of man. Without the atonement we would become "angels to the devil"

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni 10)

The commandments we are commanded of God to perform would be impossible to execute in righteousness without the gifts and powers of God, extended to man by virtue of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. We cannot boast of our righteousness, because without the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and the gifts and powers that extend to us therefrom, we could not perform even one good deed. That's why you see this scene in heaven:

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold...

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Revelation 4)

Edited May 14, 2013 by teddyaware

[Anakin7]

We do not "Earn Grace" but earn the right to "stay in True Grace" by way of True Faith.

In His Debt/Grace

anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited May 14, 2013 by Anakin7

[Lightbearer]

Salvation is based on being reconciled to God, which Christ did completely when he was on the cross. He declared, "it is finished". The price had been paid in full for our salvation. "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." Christ did that. He paid the price.

So, the idea that more needs to be done to pay the price for our sin is foreign to the NT. As Paul asked the Galatians, "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (gal 3:2) Rather, the formula used in the NT is Christ saves us while we are still sinners, and then because of our experience with him through the spirit, he changes us from the inside out. And again, Paul in Colosians 2:20: "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

No where in the NT does it say we earn our relationship with God, our way to the highest heaven, even with Christ we don't earn it. It is given to us. We are adopted into the family.

Nobody has said that we had to pay the price, or atone for our sins. Christ did that 2000 years ago. But Christ did not reconcile us individually that takes something on our part, namely faith in HIm. Do you think Christ reconciled everyone to God? If not why not? Is God a respecter of persons? If not what is the means whereby He determines who grace (meaning forgiveness of sins) is applied to? Does one make a choice in order to make the atonement active for us individually? Or does God choose us and we have no say in the matter? If so then God is a respecter of persons.

Here is what I believe: God sends forth messengers and the spirit of God touches the hearts of men, if they are His sheep they will hear His voice and follow Him, I also believe the following:

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof."(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:3-5)

So simply put, Christ is the one who atones for our sins through His blood. His grace is what cleanses us of our sins. God sends His servants to preach the Gospel and those who hear it are converted, they develop faith in Christ which leads them to the fruits of repentance. But if we do not repent (change our actions) then God will not save us. Baptism is the covenant through which we can overcome our sins, and it is a gradual process, but it must be done. We must fight the good fight, we must finish the course, we must endure to the end or we will become a castaway.

Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments" so basically the proof of our faith is in how well we keep His commandments. Jesus taught as much in the following:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

(New Testament | Matthew 7:13-29)

Doing is more than saying, that is the proof of our faith, that is what I am talking about. I am not talking about atoning for our own sins, that is not what LDS scriptures are saying. They are saying that to make His atonement active in our lives we must have a living faith, the kind James spoke of:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (New Testament | James 2:17-18)

Faith alone is not a biblical doctrine. This is the works I am talking about, this is the keeping the commandments I am talking about. Without it there is no salvation because without such works there is no faith persent. And without faith it is impossible to please God, for He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. So I cannot seperate faith from works, the works of faith are required of us or we have no promise.

[volgadon]

I translated a brief quote about St. Silouan of Athos, perhaps the most revered Orthodox holy man of the past century.

“He focused his efforts on an inner, spiritual obedience to the hegumen and dukhovnik,* considering it a Mystery of the Church and a gift of grace. Turning to the dukhovnik, he would pray for the Lord to take mercy upon him through His servant, and reveal His will and the path to salvation…”

http://azbyka.ru/otechnik/?Sofronij_Saharov/starets-siluan-afonskij=1_4_2

So, in St Silouan's view, we see how grace and works are closely linked. This is a lot closer to our view than ours is to most evangelical ones.

*The head of an Orthodox monastery, and a confessor, respectively.

[Anakin7]

I am reminded of a quote by Craig Blomberg in "How Wide The Divide" when he said that "Salvation is Absolutly Free, but it will Cost us our very Lives".

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited May 14, 2013 by Anakin7

[volgadon]

But it speaks to the idea of laws and commandments. The gospel is very different from listing commandments.

No, it doesn't speak to the general idea of laws and commandments. Paul is concerned with one specific law codex- the Torah, or law of Moses.

If your claim is to be credible, it must be bolstered with more than misunderstood evidence.

There is more to the gospel than just commandments, but it is no more different from them than your limbs are very different from you.