Brad Wilcox'S View On Grace

[DBMormon]

Brad Wilcox's Talk "His Grace is Suffcient" was given 12 July 2011

http://speeches.byu....iewitem&id=1966

http://www.byutv.org...57-7000b9945468

http://www.lds.org/n...icient?lang=eng

In that time He has become the #1 most listened to talk of all-time on BYU Speeches

Most Viewed

1. His Grace Is Sufficient Brad Wilcox

2. "Cast Not Away... Jeffrey R. Holland

3. "How Do I Love Thee?" Jeffrey R. Holland

4. In the Strength of the... David A. Bednar

5. "Remember Lot's Wife" Jeffrey R. Holland

6. Our Relationship with... Bruce R. McConkie

His take on Grace is a fresh and makes sense to many LDS.

I interviewed him for my podcast and it is a two part interview

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/

1.) Is his view credible?

2.) Is this a fresh take on Grace? not that it is Doctrinal or not, but that it has never been explained in this way

3.) Is it Doctrinal?

4.) Is there a shift in the Church towards more emphasis on Grace and less on Works (not that the Doctrine has changed or is changing but our emphasis is)?

Edited May 7, 2013 by DBMormon

[volgadon]

I dunno, I don't think that us leaning towards an evangelical concept of grace is much good.

[DBMormon]

I dunno, I don't think that us leaning towards an evangelical concept of grace is much good.

Why? His view made the New Era (Church magazine) so on some level the Church magazine editors with Leader approval felt it was a good fit. Curious as to your view why

[Gillebre]

He has a book called "The Continuous Atonement" that I'm reading. It's really good.

[Nevo]

.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Gillebre]

He has a new book out called "The Continuous Conversion" that I wish I had time to read. Alas, with two weeks until my mission...I don't know if I can. haha

[DBMormon]

In the podcast we get into talking about

- where he got the piano analogy

- his experiences giving blessings with Elder Holland

- him and I going back and forth a little on justification and sanctification

- Whether he perceives a shift of emphasis on Grace.

- His Books "The Continous Atonement" and "The Continous Conversion"

Edited May 7, 2013 by DBMormon

[Tacenda]

I dunno, I don't think that us leaning towards an evangelical concept of grace is much good.

Volgadon, not that you would care, I have to disagree. It might do us all good to start with the EV approach. I wonder if it means more to our salvation than you believe. It's a matter of giving over everything to Him, sort of like we have no control over anything, a feeling of desperation or of being completely or totally helpless or doomed to begin with, maybe that will put into perpective how badly we need that Grace and then we would build on that Grace out of gratefulness for it and be totally in His servitude. Edited May 7, 2013 by Tacenda

[DBMormon]

Ether 12: 27

And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Who gave me weakness? God

Why? So I would be humble

Why? So I would turn to Christ, His Atonement, and His Grace

Why? because his grace is sufficient to tun my weakness (which he gave me) into strengths (Which he helped me to reach).

Now with that scripture in mind consider the same thing being said in another way

Moroni 10:32-33

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Notice that being perfected in Christ and being perfect in Christ are different

As I understand it - Being perfected in Christ is that while I am imperfect and severely flawed, and sinning every day, I get to borrow Christ's perfection in the baptismal covenant as I work with Christ towards the goal of perfection.... then someday off in the eternities having overcome all with Christ's grace assisting me, I shall be perfect in Christ.

I meant to ask Bro. Wilcox about this but didn't.

Edited May 7, 2013 by DBMormon

[volgadon]

Notice that being perfected in Christ and being perfect in Christ are different

Only that the former is not a completed action yet, and the latter refers to the state after completion. These are different tenses, not senses.

[volgadon]

Volgadon, not that you would care, I have to disagree.

Why wouldn't I care? I will probably disagree to some extent, yes, which is not the same thing at all.

It might do us all good to start with the EV approach. I wonder if it means more to our salvation than you believe. It's a matter of giving over everything to Him, sort of like we have no control over anything, a feeling of desperation or of being completely or totally helpless or doomed to begin with, maybe that will put into perpective how badly we need that Grace and then we would build on that Grace out of gratefulness for it and be totally in His servitude.

My thoughts are too disjointed at the moment to provide this the attention it, but I do feel that a sense of being helpless without God is vital. However, too much of a focus on it in my opinion is unhealthy. It also ignores the perspective that our scriptures offer, a perspective not too dismilar to other Christians and Jews. There is also more to the evangelical view than justy what you suggested.

[DBMormon]

Only that the former is not a completed action yet, and the latter refers to the state after completion. These are different tenses, not senses.

Correct, but to be perfected in Christ takes into account the changing power of the sacrament and the dual promises of the baptismal covenant. One is on the path adding grace for grace.

Anyway I will bow out from my views, I want this thread to be about those of Bro. Wilcox.

[Lightbearer]

Actually I do not think we can keep on sinning and expect God's grace to save us alone (as some EVs seem to think or so state) notice the bolded in Moroni:

(Moroni 10:32-33) "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

Elder Wilcox's talk was not saying the same thing that I have heard some EV's say, that Christ "did it all" or that all of our works are "filthy rags" but that salvation is a process, that the atonement is an active part of our becoming perfect not an addition to our keeping the commandments, but the process by which we are inabled to keep the commandments. As we lean upon the Savior and repent of our sins and covenant with Him, then His grace can become active in our lives. As we have His spirit to always be with us then we can continually "deny ourselves of all ungodliness" until we become perfect through Christ's grace. There is a distinction here, we are being tested, our mortal probation is to prove us and see if we will keep His commandments. To see if we will live by faith and in so doing become like Him, Thus our faith in Christ and our repentance and our striving to deny ourselves of all ungodliness and our keeping the covenant we make at baptism and in the Temple, the resultant blessing of His spirit to always be with us is what perfects and sanctifies us and prepares us for eternal life.

[Duncan]

Actually I do not think we can keep on sinning and expect God's grace to save us alone (as some EVs seem to think or so state) notice the bolded in Moroni: Elder Wilcox's talk was not saying the same thing that I have heard some EV's say, that Christ "did it all" or that all of our works are "filthy rags" but that salvation is a process, that the atonement is an active part of our becoming perfect not an addition to our keeping the commandments, but the process by which we are inabled to keep the commandments. As we lean upon the Savior and repent of our sins and covenant with Him, then His grace can become active in our lives. As we have His spirit to always be with us then we can continually "deny ourselves of all ungodliness" until we become perfect through Christ's grace. There is a distinction here, we are being tested, our mortal probation is to prove us and see if we will keep His commandments. To see if we will live by faith and in so doing become like Him, Thus our faith in Christ and our repentance and our striving to deny ourselves of all ungodliness and our keeping the covenant we make at baptism and in the Temple, the resultant blessing of His spirit to always be with us is what perfects and sanctifies us and prepares us for eternal life.

Paul in Romans something something says in essence that when we sin we need to repent to get the forgiveness but don't sin just to get blessings

[Calm]

It's a matter of giving over everything to Him, sort of like we have no control over anything, a feeling of desperation or of being completely or totally helpless or doomed to begin with, maybe that will put into perpective how badly we need that Grace and then we would build on that Grace out of gratefulness for it and be totally in His servitude.

Does God want us to give ourselves to him because we have to, because there is no other real option to survival or because we want to because we love him?

If I was in the position of having a companion who needed me to survive, to be happy and one who would be happy without me, but wanted to be with me because it may life a joy....I would take the second.

I like the idea that we turn our lives over to God because we know how deeply he loves us and we trust him fully, but certainly in the scriptures we are taught often times the turning point is one of desperation that opens up man to listening to and relying on the Lord because there is no one else.

Edited May 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

A child seeks out a father (or grandmother for that matter) for primarily two things....because the child realizes she can't make it on her own and needs someone to care for her, but she also seeks them out in order to share her experience of love and beauty and joy...because for the child such experiences are too special and fleeting it she keeps it to herself and by sharing them with those she loves, the joy just continues to grow and grow....or so it felt last week with my granddaughter.

I think God wants us to seek him out when we need him, but even more so...because those times are so much more wonderful...when we are bursting with joy and glory and love and faith and hope and want to share it with the world, but mostly with our Creator who is really the only person who will understand what it all means to us because it means the same thing to him.

I cannot call the first experience of being saved Grace without calling the second one...of living in the joy, being embraced by it....Grace as well.

One of the meanings of Grace is: "elegance or beauty of form, manner, motion, or action"....and when we experience such, I think we are engaging God's Grace just as much as when our imperfections are drawn from us by his love because both experiences are about experiencing life as God experiences it, with a fullness of glory, joy, love, beauty, etc. etc.

Edited May 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

A child seeks out a father (or grandmother for that matter) for primarily two things....because the child realizes she can't make it on her own and needs someone to care for her, but she also seeks them out in order to share her experience of love and beauty and joy...because for the child such experiences are too special and fleeting it she keeps it to herself and by sharing them with those she loves, the joy just continues to grow and grow....or so it felt last week with my granddaughter.

I think God wants us to seek him out when we need him, but even more so...because those times are so much more wonderful...when we are bursting with joy and glory and love and faith and hope and want to share it with the world, but mostly with our Creator who is really the only person who will understand what it all means to us because it means the same thing to him.

I cannot call the first experience of being saved Grace without calling the second one...of living in the joy, being embraced by it....Grace as well.

One of the meanings of Grace is: "elegance or beauty of form, manner, motion, or action"....and when we experience such, I think we are engaging God's Grace just as much as when our imperfections are drawn from us by his love because both experiences are about experiencing life as God experiences it, with a fullness of glory, joy, love, beauty, etc. etc.

I don't walk my talk Cal. I am so far off on having this feeling of needing a Saviour. Maybe that's why I was so over kill in my post. It's because I've had it taught to me to follow the prophet so much that in my mind I left the Saviour out (I'm late to the party) of the picture alot, since to me it was easier to follow someone I know vs. someone I didn't. Because all of my life I've been an Ensign reader, not a "scriptures" reader. I was always taught to read the scriptures in church, but disliked it so much. Maybe if I had, I would feel like I knew Him better, but only now, and only since listening to the "EV view", am I seeing the error of my ways.

So this is all new to me. I do remember how a lesson in RS was so strange to me, a concept I wasn't use to, don't laugh, but it was this southern gal who taught and it was a lesson on the Saviour. She told us to take all our burdens and lay them at the Saviour's feet. Why was this so foreign to me???? Am the I only one? Do we need a little more Jesus talk? I could use some.

BTW, I love what you've said here.

ETA: I have been taught in lessons etc. about our Saviour, but not quite needing that Grace like it's put forth by the "EV". But maybe there is a very big difference in needing and feeling lowly. No wonder there are so many happy confident LDS, I get it, I think.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Tacenda

[Duncan]

Brad Wilcox's Talk "His Grace is Suffcient" was given 12 July 2011

http://speeches.byu....iewitem&id=1966

http://www.byutv.org...57-7000b9945468

http://www.lds.org/n...icient?lang=eng

In that time He has become the #1 most listened to talk of all-time on BYU Speeches

Most Viewed

1. His Grace Is Sufficient Brad Wilcox

2. "Cast Not Away... Jeffrey R. Holland

3. "How Do I Love Thee?" Jeffrey R. Holland

4. In the Strength of the... David A. Bednar

5. "Remember Lot's Wife" Jeffrey R. Holland

6. Our Relationship with... Bruce R. McConkie

His take on Grace is a fresh and makes sense to many LDS.

I interviewed him for my podcast and it is a two part interview

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/

1.) Is his view credible?

2.) Is this a fresh take on Grace? not that it is Doctrinal or not, but that it has never been explained in this way

3.) Is it Doctrinal?

4.) Is there a shift in the Church towards more emphasis on Grace and less on Works (not that the Doctrine has changed or is changing but our emphasis is)?

I LOVED THIS INTERVIEW!!!!!!!!!!!! thank you!!!!

[Rivers]

I really like this piano lessons analogy. I think I like it even better than than the bicycle parable. I will have to listen to the interview when I have the time.

[Calm]

But maybe there is a very big difference in needing and feeling lowly.

God is not one dimensional, we short ourselves and Him if we only approach him in one way. And he has not created a one dimensional robot toy, in my view we insult him if we approach him in that manner, claiming we are less than the dust under his feet. He made us to be things of wonder and beauty, we deny his craftmenship when we refuse to accept that we are his children. What father wants to hear from his children that they are nothing, less than nothing, evil and depraved? I can only think he would appreciate that if it removed extreme pride that was getting in the way of listening to the Spirit, but I can hardly believe that he wants us to feel that way about ourselves the rest of eternity...how would that add to his glory, his own joy?

Jesus cried out for help from the Lord, the idea that we can only truly recognize how much we need him if we view ourselves as depraved, without value in and of ourselves.....just don't see it. Seems to me the wisest ones, the ones who know best when they need help are not only humble, but realistic about who they are and above all else are thankful enough for God's help that they don't want to take advantage of him and simply turn into God's puppets, but rather contribute to God's creation in the best way they can whatever that means.

Of course the one who can teach us best how to do that is Christ and we must give him our burdens so that our hands are empty to receive all that he desires to give us and so he can take our hands and show us how to use them to heal, to build, to love. If we hold on to our burdens, where will we put his gifts? How can we learn to heal, to build, to love if we are too busy not only carrying our burdens, but caring for them...tying up ourselves in them 24/7 emotionally, mentally, physically. Give Christ your burdens and you suddenly have a lot more free time to do constructive things, especially on the spiritual level.

Edited May 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[Storm Rider]

I do think that the Church has tried to teach the very real principle that we cannot just draw nigh unto Christ with our lips; we have to have a change of heart that is demonstrated by a desire, by actions, to emulate the life of Jesus. The Grace offered each child of God is sufficient as long as we are reaching out to him; it is through his grace that we are perfected and made whole. It is not through our actions that we are perfected. I also think there is a different facet of confusion about the grace and good works within us; we should live our lives acknowledging that every good act we do is enabled by God's grace; it is not our sole, independent choice; he is our impetus for all good. It is this humble acknowledgement that draws us more fully into communion with Christ. EVs can teach us some things, but imho they are more the one note wonder than a group that possesses a depth of spiritual knowledge.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Storm Rider

[Darren10]

something something

I love that chapter and verse. They're my favorite.

[Duncan]

I love that chapter and verse. They're my favorite.

it's Romans 6:1-2!!! ha ha

[Yep]

I thought I would add my two cents to this thread.

The LDS position is much more similar to statements of the various Christians than we like to admit. It is extremely important to remember the differences that do exist, but it is also important to recognize the similarities. We, and the rest of Christianity to a greater extent, have indoctrinated ourselves too heavily in being different. In acknowledging the similarities, we need to be careful to not fall into the errors of the religions that currently espouse these beliefs. We are meant to become like God the Father. We are not meant for the Telestial, we are meant for the Celestial.

We, as LDS, can say we are saved by grace alone. By the grace of God all Men will go to Heaven (one of the three glories thereof.) One must willingly choose not to go to Heaven. Following being given the gift of grace and allowed entry to Heaven, gaining immortality, we are then differentially rewarded based in our works.

This concept of grace also follows comments I have made in regards to Paul and the Law. Grace works by allowing us the ability to come out from under the Law. Akin to Kohlberg's or Piaget's moral development, coming out from under the Law would be achieving stages 5 or 6. Paul's statement concerning sin(Romans 6:14-) leads to a belief that this is the point where one can truly and freely choose to follow Satan.

Regardless of the above, Brother Wilcox promotes a bit too lackadaisical a position with regard to our position in Heaven. We must be more careful in balancing an understanding of our salvation through grace(immortality in Heaven) and an understanding of the role of works in exaltation(gaining eternal life and deification.) The article isn't careful enough, and, given it's audience in media for the youth (i.e. presence in the New Era and the Youth section on LDS.org), a discussion of the content would be advisable for youth who are read it. Further follow-up statements to this piece are needed to clarify the concept presented in this article.

[DBMormon]

We, as LDS, can say we are saved by grace alone. By the grace of God all Men will go to Heaven (one of the three glories thereof.) One must willingly choose not to go to Heaven. Following being given the gift of grace and allowed entry to Heaven, gaining immortality, we are then differentially rewarded based in our works.

Regardless of the above, Brother Wilcox promotes a bit too lackadaisical a position with regard to our position in Heaven. We must be more careful in balancing an understanding of our salvation through grace(immortality in Heaven) and an understanding of the role of works in exaltation(gaining eternal life and deification.) The article isn't careful enough, and, given it's audience in media for the youth (i.e. presence in the New Era and the Youth section on LDS.org), a discussion of the content would be advisable for youth who are read it. Further follow-up statements to this piece are needed to clarify the concept presented in this article.

The problem with saying ultimate rewarding of a kingdom is based on our works places emphasis outwardly while God looketh on the heart and Helaman 3:35 - "Sactification" or changing to be like Christ comes by "yielding our heart to God". By focusing on the works we miss that While generally as our heart turns to God our works will reflect that, it makes it very easy for one to be discouraged when their "works" don't meet their "expectations of what God requires.

For example consider the following story from Stephen Robinson's "believing Christ"

Many years ago I came into contact with a woman who was, initially at least, one of the roughest persons I have ever known. Abused as a child, she had run away from home and had lived on the streets for years. As a young woman, she traveled around the country with a motorcycle gang. In late middle age, her beauty gone, she spent most of her time in a pub, where some missionaries met her when they went in to get change for a pay phone outside. When she was baptized, many of the members worried that her conversion wouldn’t last, and there were good reasons to suspect it might not.

For a long time after her baptism, this sister still swore like a trooper, even in Church, and never quite lived the Word of Wisdom one hundred percent. On one occasion during her first year in the Church, she lost her temper during a Relief Society meeting and punched out one of the other sisters. Her ex-husband is an alcoholic, and her children have all spent time in jail. Now the question before us is whether someone like this can seriously expect to be saved. What hope does a person like this, with all her faults and weaknesses, really have? With her background and problems, why bother coming to Church at all?

“Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” God does not lie. Whoever will come, may come. All are invited, none is excluded. Though this sister had further to travel than most, the same covenant was offered to her: “Do all you can. I will do the rest while you learn how.” And she was as faithful as she could be under her circumstances. She never said, “No, I won’t,” or “Get off my back,” or “Why talk to me? Talk to him, he started it.” She always said, “I know; I’m sorry. I’ll try to do better.” Then she would try to do better. Often she would fail, but little by little over the years, she improved a great deal. First she gave up coffee, tea, and alcohol. Then she stopped swearing. Later she overcame smoking and got her temper somewhat under control. Finally, after she’d been in the Church many years, she was ready to go to the temple. Can such a person really expect to inherit the kingdom of God? Of course.

But now the harder question. At what point did this sister become a candidate for the kingdom? Was it when she finally gave up her cigarettes, or when she got her language and temper under control? Or was it when she finally qualified for a temple recommend? No. It was none of these, though they were all important landmarks in her progress. She was justified through her faith in Jesus Christ on the day that she repented of her sins, was baptized, and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, for she entered into that covenant in good faith and in all sincerity. She believed in Christ, and she believed Christ. Like the widow with her mite, she gave all she had and held nothing back. It may not have been much, but it was everything.

Was she Celestial after doing works or when she turned her heart to Christ? It really is that simple. Once we place value on the turning of our heart to Christ, people will achieve more and feel less discouragement and fewer will give up. Once we show that even if you are stumbling along but are willing and trying to follow the gospel, repenting along the way, one will be more apt to see the Grace that is helping them and to feel more motivated to press forward with steadfastness.

While we set works as the program that pushes us it really is about our heart and whether we are turning it to Christ and pushing to be more like him.

Edited May 7, 2013 by DBMormon