Brad Wilcox'S View On Grace

[JDave]

When I say the chasm is closed, I'm referring to the gap between man and God created by sin. However, just because the chasm is closed, doesn't mean that all are saved. Salvation still requires belief on our part to enter into that relationship connection.

Many people don't want that connection or relationship with God.

I think we are pretty much on the same page. Edited May 30, 2013 by JDave

[teddyaware]

Thanks this explains a lot.

Juxtaposed to this concept of two different types of salvations referred to by the LDS, the NT uses only one definition to refer to salvation, and uses rewards to refer to rewards.

You might be interested to know this dialogue/ discussion/debate effectively ended for me about two weeks ago, when I realized you believe in the concept of rewards. Nevertheless, I continued to play along on this thread because I thought it was interesting and informative enough to keep going.

Thanks to your lively and knowledgable participation on this thread, I've come to realize the Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals have been unnecessarily disagreeing over an important doctrinal issue for many years, for no good reason. So why has there been all this nasty, unnecessary disagreement? because too many LDS don't know what their own religion actually teaches.

It's sad to think that if only the LDS defenders had realized while our soteriology places a very strong emphasis on "newborn" saints pressing on toward the eventual receipt of the fullness God's heavenly rewards to the valiant, that doesn't mean those who do not receive the same fullness of heavenly reward aren't also saved. It's sobering and sad to look back and think about all those years of needless strife and acrimony.

If there are any LDS who disagree with me on this, please carefully reread, study and ponder D&C sections 76, 88 and 138 before responding. Thanks...

Edited May 31, 2013 by teddyaware

[Lightbearer]

Sorry to be so long in giving this reply, but real life does get busy and I hope I can answer where we left off. While I had not planned to respond back seeing this exchange being very useless, I did not want your assertions to go unanswered.

I think the Thief on the cross next to Jesus is an example of one, where he couldn't have been baptized, yet Jesus said, "today you will be with me..."

Not quite, Jesus did not say you are saved, nor did He say you will be with me in heaven. In fact in light of what He said to Mary the day of His resurrection, we can be sure the thief did not go strait to heaven that day. He said “today you will be with me in paradise” in fact three days later when he spoke to Mary at the tomb he said for her to touch Him no, for He had not yet ascended to His Father. His Father was in heaven so obviously paradise is some other place. The fact is paradise as mentioned in this scripture is the world of spirits where the dead go to await the resurrection and also where the gospel could be preached to the dead and then vicarious ordinance of baptism for the dead in this life could be performed on their behalf, so that they could live unto God in the spirit:

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (New Testament | 1 Peter 3:18 - 20)

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? (New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

These quotes indicate how the gospel is preached to the dead and the ordinances provided for those who did not have the opportunity in this life.

Almost every passage in the NT that talks about salvation, does so without reference to baptism (in water).

Interesting that those times you speak of Paul is writing to the Saints (already baptized members of the Church) not to the world. Members should already know that baptism is essential and that keeping the commandments is necessary. The problem that Paul and some of the other apostles faced were the teachings of the Jews that were being brought into the Church, so they reminded the Saints that their salvation was in Christ, not of the law of Moses or for that matter the commandments alone, without the atonement of Christ there would be no salvation.

Right, the baptism of the inner man. "Not not the putting away of the filth of the flesh..." as in getting wet!

Oh please! Was it the baptism of the inner man that Peter was referencing the flood in the days of Noah? It is very convenient that every scripture that any of us site you have a neat interpretation that you try to use to explain away the very thing it is teaching. The reason the Book of Mormon had to come forth is to put down contention and to explain the doctrine of Christ in plainness. For example the Catholic Church which only believes the Bible interprets it so that baptism is a saving ordinance. They also claim authority to perform that ordinance. Protestants on the other had do not claim baptism is a saving ordinance and believe in a “priesthood of all believers” this is the only way they could justify their break with the Catholics. LDS believe in the great apostasy where the priesthood was lost, the ordinances changed, and some plain and precious things removed from the Bible. In fact there are so many different bible interpretations that it is impossible to tell who is right except by an independent revelation which LDS believe occurred with the First Vision and other revelations that in effect restored the original Gospel of Christ that had been corrupted and lost over the centuries.

Like I said, to make the case that it is essential to salvation, one needs a statement that states this. So far these statements indicate that it is important, and it declares to everyone else what already happened on the inside.

How then is it important? To be seen of men? I thought you said (while explaining away James faith without works passage) that it was God who does the judging and we did not have to “prove our salvation” to anyone else? That is not consistent. For what purpose did John preach repentance and baptism? Was it just an outward sign or was it an essential ordinance? Why would Jesus commission His apostles to do this if it were not essential? He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and he that believeth not shall be damned. Or course you claim that damnation is only to those who do not believe. Well who would be baptized and not believe? In fact this reference also points out the fact that if someone was baptized, even with authority and yet did not have faith in Christ then that ordinance would not be of any effect. LDS teach this very doctrine, a person could be baptized a thousand times and if they did not truly believe in Christ that ordinance would be worthless.

I haven't said it's not important. What I have said is that it doesn't save us. It's is a symbolic act that declares to everyone what has already happened to our hearts. It is commanded, but so are many other things that don't save us as well.

Come now that is all you have said this entire thread, I mean you show your contempt for the sacred ordinance of baptism by referring to it as merely “getting wet”! I suppose John the Baptist was wasting his time? When did Jesus even bother to be baptized? How did it fulfill all righteousness if it was just “getting wet” with no real meaning?

Was Simon saved? Yes. Doesn't matter how many issues people have, they are saved even still. And God is the source, who else would they go to be healed?

Was Judas Saved? I think so, but only God knows.

This is really rich, Simon was still saved, he was born again, had the mind of Christ, yet he was trying to buy the priesthood of God?! So a person can be saved and yet be in the bonds of iniquity? Did not Simon repent and try to change his heart? After all Peter said that his heart was not right! How could this be if he had already had a change of heart by being “saved”? Sounds like a process to me.

Not sure you'd mentioned the loss of one's salvation when I point out a scripture that states plainly that there is no now condemnation to those who are in Christ. It's sort of like saying to your children, "you are my children now, but if you are bad I'm throwing you out!"

Yes but if one is breaking the covenant made with Christ, if the salt looses it’s savor then they are good for nothing but to cast out. (Unless they repent) Paul constantly warned the Saints (members of the Church, children of Christ) to stay in the faith, to not sin and loose their crowns. Were these warnings superfluous? Or perhaps we really must work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

What salvation is, you say is the difference between us. Salvation to you is (quoting you below):

1) faith in the Lord Jesus Christ

2) a broken heart and a contrite spirit or repentance from sin

3) making a covenant with Him at baptism

4) endure temptation

5) keep the commandments until the end of our lives.

To me, salvation is to be reconciled to God through the grace of the lord Jesus Christ. The moment we believe and turn our hearts toward him, it happens. In one moment.

So, you are correct. Salvation is defined differently.

Of this we are in complete agreement, the point is if mere belief was all that is required then the devils should be saved as well. If our actions are meaningless then it is like saying “let us eat drink and be merry, nevertheless fear God, he will excuse us in committing a little sin…” which is impossible. We believe that to be truly saved our lives must be transformed and we must not desire to sin that the very thought would be abhorrent to us.

Here is another difference between the teaching of the NT and the BoM.

You quoted, “And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.” (Book of Mormon | Ether 12:27)

1 Cor. 12:^{9 "}And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

¹⁰ Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

God's economy is backwards of the world's. Notice that he said, "when I am weak, then am I strong." This is the opposite of what the world states. And what you stated. "We can overcome our weaknesses through Christ, then we are able to be strong enough to resist the temptations of the devil."

Or even the BoM, "for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.”

The NT teaches that when we are weak, then we are strong. It's not our strength that God needs, it's our heart. We are strong, when we realize we need him all the time. We are strong when we realize we are weak, and it's not by our strength or will power that his work is done. Rather, it's through direct connection to him.

Actually the Book of Mormon is saying the same thing as the NT, we must humble ourselves or we cannot overcome our weaknesses. That is how the atonement transforms us and we become the children of God. It is not that our weakness which makes us strong but our humility and our coming unto Christ and having faith in Him is that what makes us strong.

I quoted John saying that you already have eternal life, and you seem to ignore it by saying, "John also said..."

Yes I noticed that you did not explain what I quoted either. John was saying you already have the promise of eternal life if you continue to endure to the end. Until the end of this mortal probation none of us are “saved” or “damned” there is always that agency to choose the one or the other. In fact that opportunity continues in the spirit world for those who did not have the opportunity in the this life to hear the word as the thief on the cross indicates.

The meanings of words are important. I do have a different interpretation on the NT, that is true, because I don't have other books that I believe are the word of God.

Herein is the problem, you trust in the arm of the flesh in that you value the words of scholars and the learned to get the interpretation from Greek, rather than consider that God can speak to prophets and apostles as in times of old.

I don't think our discussion is fruitless. I've learned quite a bit. I noticed no one disagreed with my analysis of the "keys to the kingdom" passage.

I suppose nobody considered your strained interpretation merited a response. That passage is clearly referring to keys and the apostles had those keys for a purpose, to perform saving ordinances and direct the preaching of the Gospel.

The difference between what you described as the LDS view, and the EV view as I understand it is that the chasm of separation is filled by Christ, and him alone. He comes over to us, we don't reach over to him. We are just along for the ride!

Although this reply was not made directly to me, yet it is implied. This is an astounding statement. So we do not reach over to Him? We are just along for the ride? Great description of a saving faith, James would be astonished, as would Peter and even our beloved brother Paul. So there is no agency involved, just God deciding to save whom He will? Again I repeat this scripture:

“Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.”

(New Testament | James 4:

Does this sound we are just along for the ride? Of course Christ bridges the gap, we cannot atone for our own sins, or resurrect ourselves, or exalt ourselves. But we must repent and love God and love our fellow man as He has said or we are not saved in the kingdom of God.

[Lightbearer]

You might be interested to know this dialogue/ discussion/debate effectively ended for me about two weeks ago, when I realized you believe in the concept of rewards. Nevertheless, I continued to play along on this thread because I thought it was interesting and informative enough to keep going.

Thanks to your lively and knowledgable participation on this thread, I've come to realize the Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals have been unnecessarily disagreeing over an important doctrinal issue for many years, for no good reason. So why has there been all this nasty, unnecessary disagreement? because too many LDS don't know what their own religion actually teaches.

It's sad to think that if only the LDS defenders had realized while our soteriology places a very strong emphasis on "newborn" saints pressing on toward the eventual receipt of the fullness God's heavenly rewards to the valiant, that doesn't mean those who do not receive the same fullness of heavenly reward aren't also saved. It's sobering and sad to look back and think about all those years of needless strife and acrimony.

If there are any LDS who disagree with me on this, please carefully reread, study and ponder D&C sections 76, 88 and 138 before responding. Thanks...

Actually my response is this talk by Elder Oaks in conference a few years back:

Have You Been Saved?

Dallin H. Oaks

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostle

What do we say when someone asks us, “Have you been saved?” This question, so common in the conversation of some Christians, can be puzzling to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because it is not our usual way of speaking. We tend to speak of “saved” or “salvation” as a future event rather than something that has already been realized.

Good Christian people sometimes attach different meanings to some key gospel terms like saved or salvation. If we answer according to what our questioner probably means in asking if we have been “saved,” our answer must be “yes.” If we answer according to the various meanings we attach to the terms saved or salvation, our answer will be either “yes” or “yes, but with conditions.”

I.

As I understand what is meant by the good Christians who speak in these terms, we are “saved” when we sincerely declare or confess that we have accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. This meaning relies on words the Apostle Paul taught the Christians of his day:

“If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

“For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:9–10).

To Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation in this teaching signify a present covenant relationship with Jesus Christ in which we are assured salvation from the consequences of sin if we are obedient. Every sincere Latter-day Saint is “saved” according to this meaning. We have been converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, we have experienced repentance and baptism, and we are renewing our covenants of baptism by partaking of the sacrament.

II.

As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings. According to some of these, our salvation is assured—we are already saved. In others, salvation must be spoken of as a future event (e.g., 1 Cor. 5:5) or as conditioned upon a future event (e.g., Mark 13:13). But in all of these meanings, or kinds of salvation, salvation is in and through Jesus Christ.

First, all mortals have been saved from the permanence of death through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22).

As to salvation from sin and the consequences of sin, our answer to the question of whether or not we have been saved is “yes, but with conditions.” Our third article of faith declares our belief:

“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (A of F 1:3).

Many Bible verses declare that Jesus came to take away the sins of the world (e.g., John 1:29; Matt. 26:28). The New Testament frequently refers to the grace of God and to salvation by grace (e.g., John 1:17; Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:8). But it also has many specific commandments on personal behavior, and many references to the importance of works (e.g., Matt. 5:16; Eph. 2:10; James 2:14–17). In addition, the Savior taught that we must endure to the end in order to be saved (see Matt. 10:22; Mark 13:13).

Relying upon the totality of Bible teachings and upon clarifications received through modern revelation, we testify that being cleansed from sin through Christ’s Atonement is conditioned upon the individual sinner’s faith, which must be manifested by obedience to the Lord’s command to repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:37–38). “Verily, verily, I say unto thee,” Jesus taught, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5; see also Mark 16:16; Acts 2:37–38). Believers who have had this required rebirth at the hands of those having authority have already been saved from sin conditionally, but they will not be saved finally until they have completed their mortal probation with the required continuing repentance, faithfulness, service, and enduring to the end.

Some Christians accuse Latter-day Saints who give this answer of denying the grace of God through claiming they can earn their own salvation. We answer this accusation with the words of two Book of Mormon prophets. Nephi taught, “For we labor diligently … to persuade our children … to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ” (Moro. 10:32).

We are not saved in our sins, as by being unconditionally saved through confessing Christ and then, inevitably, committing sins in our remaining lives (see Alma 11:36–37). We are saved from our sins (see Hel. 5:10) by a weekly renewal of our repentance and cleansing through the grace of God and His blessed plan of salvation (see 3 Ne. 9:20–22).

The question of whether a person has been saved is sometimes phrased in terms of whether that person has been “born again.” Being “born again” is a familiar reference in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. As noted earlier, Jesus taught that except a man was “born again” (John 3:3), of water and of the Spirit, he could not enter into the kingdom of God (see John 3:5). The Book of Mormon has many teachings about the necessity of being “born again” or “born of God” (Mosiah 27:25; see Mosiah 27:24–26; Alma 36:24, 26; Moses 6:59). As we understand these scriptures, our answer to whether we have been born again is clearly “yes.” We were born again when we entered into a covenant relationship with our Savior by being born of water and of the Spirit and by taking upon us the name of Jesus Christ. We can renew that rebirth each Sabbath when we partake of the sacrament.

Latter-day Saints affirm that those who have been born again in this way are spiritually begotten sons and daughters of Jesus Christ (see Mosiah 5:7; Mosiah 15:9–13; Mosiah 27:25). Nevertheless, in order to realize the intended blessings of this born-again status, we must still keep our covenants and endure to the end. In the meantime, through the grace of God, we have been born again as new creatures with new spiritual parentage and the prospects of a glorious inheritance.

A fourth meaning of being saved is to be saved from the darkness of ignorance of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, and of the purpose of life, and of the destiny of men and women. The gospel made known to us by the teachings of Jesus Christ has given us this salvation. “I am the light of the world,” Jesus taught; “he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life” (John 8:12; see also John 12:46).

For Latter-day Saints, being “saved” can also mean being saved or delivered from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by assurance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come (see 1 Cor. 15:40–42). Just as the Resurrection is universal, we affirm that every person who ever lived upon the face of the earth—except for a very few—is assured of salvation in this sense. As we read in modern revelation:

“And this is the gospel, the glad tidings …

“That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

“That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

“Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him” (D&C 76:40–43; emphasis added).

The prophet Brigham Young taught that doctrine when he declared that “every person who does not sin away the day of grace, and become an angel to the Devil, will be brought forth to inherit a kingdom of glory” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 288). This meaning of saved ennobles the whole human race through the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. In this sense of the word, all should answer: “Yes, I have been saved. Glory to God for the gospel and gift and grace of His Son!”

Finally, in another usage familiar and unique to Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation are also used to denote exaltation or eternal life (see Abr. 2:11). This is sometimes referred to as the “fulness of salvation” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 4 vols. [1979–81], 1:242). This salvation requires more than repentance and baptism by appropriate priesthood authority. It also requires the making of sacred covenants, including eternal marriage, in the temples of God, and faithfulness to those covenants by enduring to the end. If we use the word salvation to mean “exaltation,” it is premature for any of us to say that we have been “saved” in mortality. That glorious status can only follow the final judgment of Him who is the Great Judge of the living and the dead.

I have suggested that the short answer to the question of whether a faithful member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been saved or born again must be a fervent “yes.” Our covenant relationship with our Savior puts us in that “saved” or “born again” condition meant by those who ask this question. Some modern prophets have also used “salvation” or “saved” in that same present sense. President Brigham Young declared:

“It is present salvation and the present influence of the Holy Ghost that we need every day to keep us on saving ground. …

“I want present salvation. … Life is for us, and it is for us to receive it today, and not wait for the Millennium. Let us take a course to be saved today” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1954], 15–16). President David O. McKay spoke of the revealed gospel of Jesus Christ in that same present sense of “salvation here—here and now” (Gospel Ideals [1953], 6).

III.

I will conclude by discussing another important question members and leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are asked by others: “Why do you send missionaries to preach to other Christians?” Sometimes this is asked with curiosity and sometimes with resentment.

My most memorable experience with that question occurred some years ago in what we then called the Eastern Bloc. After many years of Communist hostility to religion, these countries were suddenly and miraculously given a measure of religious freedom. When that door opened, many Christian faiths sent missionaries. As part of our preparation to do so, the First Presidency sent members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles to meet with government and church leaders in these countries. Our assignment was to introduce ourselves and to explain what our missionaries would be doing.

Elder Russell M. Nelson and I called on the leader of the Orthodox Church in one of these countries. Here was a man who had helped keep the light of Christianity burning through the dark decades of Communist repression. I noted in my journal that he was a warm and gracious man who impressed me as a servant of the Lord. I mention this so that you will not think there was any spirit of arrogance or contention in our conversation of nearly an hour. Our visit was pleasant and cordial, filled with the goodwill that should always characterize conversations between men and women who love the Lord and seek to serve Him, each according to his or her own understanding.

Our host told us about the activities of his church during the period of Communist repression. He described the various difficulties his church and its work were experiencing as they emerged from that period and sought to regain their former position in the life of the country and the hearts of the people. We introduced ourselves and our fundamental beliefs. We explained that we would soon be sending missionaries into his country and told him how they would perform their labors.

He asked, “Will your missionaries preach only to unbelievers, or will they also try to preach to believers?” We replied that our message was for everyone, believers as well as unbelievers. We gave two reasons for this answer—one a matter of principle and the other a matter of practicality. We told him that we preached to believers as well as unbelievers because our message, the restored gospel, makes an important addition to the knowledge, happiness, and peace of all mankind. As a matter of practicality, we preach to believers as well as unbelievers because we cannot tell the difference. I remember asking this distinguished leader, “When you stand before a congregation and look into the faces of the people, can you tell the difference between those who are real believers and those who are not?” He smiled wryly, and I sensed an admission that he had understood the point.

Through missionaries and members, the message of the restored gospel is going to all the world. To non-Christians, we witness of Christ and share the truths and ordinances of His restored gospel. To Christians we do the same. Even if a Christian has been “saved” in the familiar single sense discussed earlier, we teach that there remains more to be learned and more to be experienced. As President Hinckley recently said, “[We are] not argumentative. We do not debate. We, in effect, simply say to others, ‘Bring all the good that you have and let us see if we can add to it’” (“The BYU Experience,” BYU devotional address, 4 Nov. 1997).

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints offers all of the children of God the opportunity to learn the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ as restored in these latter days. We offer everyone the privilege of receiving all of the ordinances of salvation and exaltation.

We invite all to hear this message, and we invite all who receive the confirming witness of the Spirit to heed it. These things are true, I testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

This is perhaps the best response to this thread and I cannot think of anything else need be said by me.

[teddyaware]

Actually my response is this talk by Elder Oaks in conference a few years back:

This is perhaps the best response to this thread and I cannot think of anything else need be said by me.

Your last two posts are excellent, as usual. The point I was alluding to in my last post is that we Latter-day Saints believe, with the exception of for son's of perdition, all will eventually be heirs to salvation in the Kingdom of God, with each person so saved inheriting one of the Father's many mansions of glory in the eternal world

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all (i.e. the inheritors of the lowest of the three heavens) shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (D&C 76)

The referrence to every knee bowing and every tongue confessing, in the above verse, points us to this declaration of Paul in Philippians 2, wherein he testified:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The above verses, from the D&C and the New Testament, when coupled with the following quotation from Joseph Fielding Smith, in his Doctrines of Salvation, clearly indicate all saved beings -- even those in the lowest of the three heavens -- will obtain their salvation only by virtue of coming unto Christ and accepting him as their Saviour...

"Nevertheless, even these (the inheritors of the lowest kingdom of glory) are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world." (Joseph Fielding Smith)

Acknowledging that even those in the lowest kindom of glory are saved through their faith in Jesus Christ places the informed Latter-day Saint in a position to be better able to dialogue effectively with our Evangelical friends, providing an effective avenue of discussion that might bring, at least on this point, a cessation to the endless "headbutting" that usually characterizes LDS/Evangelical debate. This understanding embraces a basic salvation and reception of heavenly glory with a minimum reward, while also acknowledging exaltation as the highest reward to those who are fully diligent, faithful and valiant in the testimony of Jesus.

Edited June 1, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

Sorry to be so long in giving this reply, but real life does get busy and I hope I can answer where we left off. While I had not planned to respond back seeing this exchange being very useless, I did not want your assertions to go unanswered.

Can't think of anything more offensive.

[Calm]

Can't think of anything more offensive.

I agree. While some particular goal--like changing someone's mind---may not be achieved, that does not mean the effort is completely useless and there should be respect at the very least that someone is trying to communicate, even when they are not good at it (I am not making any judgment about this conversation in particular).

[danielwoods]

I agree. While some particular goal--like changing someone's mind---may not be achieved, that does not mean the effort is completely useless and there should be respect at the very least that someone is trying to communicate, even when they are not good at it (I am not making any judgment about this conversation in particular).

Thanks. I find it particularly disheartening, in a discussion format such as this, to read words like that.

The goal may be to persuade, but what often happens is learning and understanding takes place. So much so, that even if I disagree with your position. I ought to be able to defend it, because I truly understand it as a result of our interaction.

[Calm]

I truly understand it as a result of our interaction.

That is for me the ultimate aim, but I do find it rarely happens since fallible humans are involved...yet in my mind it is a noble endeavour that should be, even must be if we truly desire to seek God, tried. Edited June 1, 2013 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

Thanks. I find it particularly disheartening, in a discussion format such as this, to read words like that.

The goal may be to persuade, but what often happens is learning and understanding takes place. So much so, that even if I disagree with your position. I ought to be able to defend it, because I truly understand it as a result of our interaction.

I must say that learning and understanding certainly came about by my participation on this thread. I now realize LDS advocates and Evangelicals have been unnecessarily talking past each other for many years on the subject of what constitutes salvation. I have learned that after the initial salvation experience, Evangelicals do believe there is advantage and additional joy to be gained when the newly-saved believer then chooses to grow in the grace, knowledge and power of Christ, rather than electing to passively sit around and not pursue spiritual growth in their new found faith.

If I have this right, Evangelicals do believe especially diligent saved individuals will receive greater heavenly rewards in the resurrection, rewards beyond what a saved individual who chooses to not apply himself in spiritual growth will enjoy. This, more or less, is what the Latter-day Saints believe, for we believe, except for the sons of perdition, all will be saved through the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ, but some will have greater heavenly rewards than others because of their faithfulness...

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; (D&C 76)

The portions in bold, in the above revelation, apply to any and all who are not numbered among the sons of perdition. All the othes will be saved, forgiven and glorified, but some will receive greater heavenly rewards than others. So come on folks, at least on this issue, let's get with the program and stop the endless bashing and start dialoguing.

Edited June 1, 2013 by teddyaware

[JDave]

seeing this exchange being very useless

I also didn't find this exchange useless.

[JDave]

It seems that both LDS and Evangelicals believe that one must accept Christ and choose to follow Him in order to be saved. There is only a difference in how that occurs. Evangelicals seem to emphasize the mental affirmation, the repentant change of attitude, assisted by the gift of faith. LDS emphasize the ordinances, that Christ has shown us the manner by which we accept Him and enter into covenant with Him. Evangelicals would benefit from remembering that even with our works/ordinances we LDS feel we are merely following the proscribed path that Christ has set before us, not attempting to build our own works or rely on our efforts. LDS would benefit from remembering that the ordinances are ineffective without a repentant change of attitude, and that with any work that we would do (whether by command or of our own good will) we are instructed to pray for the blessing of the Spirit, that God may consecrate the performance unto us. (2 Ne. 32:9) That is, we should pray more fervently to have God working within us.

[Kenngo1969]

It seems that both LDS and Evangelicals believe that one must accept Christ and choose to follow Him in order to be saved. There is only a difference in how that occurs. Evangelicals seem to emphasize the mental affirmation, the repentant change of attitude, assisted by the gift of faith. LDS emphasize the ordinances, that Christ has shown us the manner by which we accept Him and enter into covenant with Him. Evangelicals would benefit from remembering that even with our works/ordinances we LDS feel we are merely following the proscribed path that Christ has set before us, not attempting to build our own works or rely on our efforts. LDS would benefit from remembering that the ordinances are ineffective without a repentant change of attitude, and that with any work that we would do (whether by command or of our own good will) we are instructed to pray for the blessing of the Spirit, that God may consecrate the performance unto us. (2 Ne. 32:9) That is, we should pray more fervently to have God working within us.

Those are very astute observations, JDave!

[Kenngo1969]

Tacenda: You are a sweetheart; and though it may seem from my previous response I'm totally hostile to your "busy work" comment, I am not. I have even heard General Authorities complain that the Church members are often too busy to experience the joy, inner peace, confidence in salvation, and love that should play a most significant role in their life in the gospel. All the best, Ted

Hopefully, we don't allow our long "To-Do Lists" to cause us to lose sight of out the joy, peace, love, and other Fruits of the Spirit we should be feeling as we go about accomplishing what is on those "lists." When it comes right down to it, the things on our "To-Do Lists" are meant to help us access those Fruits of the Spirit (and so that we can help others to access them (our families, our children, our friends and neighbors, our fellow Church members, and so on). Otherwise, those "To-Do Lists" don't have much of a point. Just one man's opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[Lightbearer]

Can't think of anything more offensive.

Actually I can think of a lot of things more offensive. However, I do apologize for saying it was totally useless I just often get weary of arguing. If the exchange helped you and others then I am happy to spend time exchanging ideas. I did not mean to say it was without merit to have such a dialouge but it just reminded me of the good old "Bible bashes" that used to occur when I was on my mission. I learned that more heat was generated than light and both ended up more sure of their positions. But if it has helpful in clarifying our positions then it is a positive thing.

[teddyaware]

Hopefully, we don't allow our long "To-Do Lists" to cause us to lose sight of out the joy, peace, love, and other Fruits of the Spirit we should be feeling as we go about accomplishing what is on those "lists." When it comes right down to it, the things on our "To-Do Lists" are meant to help us access those Fruits of the Spirit (and so that we can help others to access them (our families, our children, our friends and neighbors, our fellow Church members, and so on). Otherwise, those "To-Do Lists" don't have much of a point. Just one man's opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Well put and I agree!

[teddyaware]

It seems that both LDS and Evangelicals believe that one must accept Christ and choose to follow Him in order to be saved. There is only a difference in how that occurs. Evangelicals seem to emphasize the mental affirmation, the repentant change of attitude, assisted by the gift of faith. LDS emphasize the ordinances, that Christ has shown us the manner by which we accept Him and enter into covenant with Him. Evangelicals would benefit from remembering that even with our works/ordinances we LDS feel we are merely following the proscribed path that Christ has set before us, not attempting to build our own works or rely on our efforts. LDS would benefit from remembering that the ordinances are ineffective without a repentant change of attitude, and that with any work that we would do (whether by command or of our own good will) we are instructed to pray for the blessing of the Spirit, that God may consecrate the performance unto us. (2 Ne. 32:9) That is, we should pray more fervently to have God working within us.

I agree. When we LDS are baptized by water, we are only doing what the Saviour commanded us to do; and not only commanded us to do. but did so Himself, setting the example. So any who have issues with the necessity of water baptism should take up their argument with the Lord -- He's the one who commanded us to do it. And if His disciples took seriously His commandment to baptize all converts, diligently contining with the practice after His ascension, why should we be expected to do differently? And you're right, baptism availeth nothing if true spiritual conversion does not also attend the outward ordinance. Nevertheless, the Saviour commanded us to be baptized by water, and so we are obligated to obey.

Edited June 3, 2013 by teddyaware