Brad Wilcox'S View On Grace

[danielwoods]

What do you mean does the "works" through us? Does God's spirit take possession and we no longer have any will? If you mean that we yield unto the enticings of the Holy Spirit and deny ourselves of ungodliness then I can understand and agree. I believe that we were given our agency so that we could test our faith. Not that God needed to see the results but the very act of choosing good over evil makes the relationship with God real rather than just a hope. Every scripture I have quoted that shows that keeping the commandments are essential you have either misinterpreted or ignored.

When you read the scriptures through the prism of Evangelical protestantism then of course you ignore the book of James or make a private interpretation of what "doing good" is or what "good fruit" is or what Jesus meant when He told the adulteress to "go and sin no more" twisting it to mean "don't ruin your life" I mean please...

Sin does not cause us to fall from grace? Better tell Adam about that one. Sorry but this is totally wrong from any standpoint.

God's spirit works through humble and willing hearts. That's all I mean. I think on that point we agree?

The reason we were given our agency wasn't as a test (in my opinion), rather it gives meaning to the love relationship we have with our Creator. Without which our relationship would be no different than a robotic one.

I haven't ignored James or anything. I haven't had the time to respond to everything you've brought up. I've attempted to tackle the concepts you are bringing up. James like all the others point out that keeping the commands is the net result of real faith/real relationship with God.

Adam did sin, and yet he still remained in relationship with God didn't he? The net result of sin is what? Pain and suffering, not unforgiveness or a broken relationship. So, we should avoid sin, right? Why? because it causes us and others pain and suffering.

First I never said we can live perfectly all the time while in the flesh. That is why repentance is a daily necessary process, it is how we follow Jesus. As for awareness of sin is that the job of the Holy Ghost? Does he not convict us of sin? Can He not bring all things to our rememberance? Did not Jesus command us to be perfect?

Now how can we be perfect if it is not gradually? Thus this life is a probation where we strive to become as Christ.

So how would one leave their relationship with God if not by disobedience?

Anytime an person says that we must do something, that is an indication of a requirement is it not? When I hear you say that "repentance is a daily necessary process, it is how we follow Jesus." I hear a requirement for "keeping saved" so to speak. It sounds more like a law than a connection to God. Something along the line of something I must do. Now maybe I'm hearing you wrong. That's just how it comes across.

Now, Jesus said, be perfect, right? What is the context, shall we look at that?

Matt. 5:^{43 "}Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

⁴⁴ But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

⁴⁵ That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

⁴⁶ For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

⁴⁷ And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

⁴⁸ Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

So, he states that we should Love our enemies, bless, do good, and pray for those enemies, that we might be the children of our Father in Heaven. And why is that? "What reward have ye?" So, the whole purpose of the statement, be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect, is in the context of Heavenly rewards. It isn't a basis for salvation. It isn't the reason we get grace or heaven. Rather, it's about rewards for those who are already going.

Yes and how do we reject God's love? What must a person do or neglect to do? Is it denying Him? Did Peter reject him when he denied Him? When Jesus confronted Peter and asked him if he loved him (relationship) and Peter said that the Lord knew that he loved HIm. What did Jesus say? Feed my sheep... He told him what he needed to DO! If Peter had said "I'd rather go fishing" would that have been a rejection of God? Would it be disobeying a commandment?

How do we reject God's love? I think their are many ways of doing this. Ultimately it rests on our attitude toward God. Did Peter reject God? Yes and no. Peter was scared and made a mistake. Sin if you will. However, that doesn't mean that Peter lost faith and his relationship completely.

Jesus told him to feed my sheep. Yes indeed. He was now to be teacher. Did his salvation rest on obeying this command? No. His salvation, like ours, rests on our relationship/connection to the one who saves.

That is a private interpretation, go and sin no more! If it had nothing to do with forgiveness then why say sin no more... I mean if breaking the commandments is meaningless then why would it ruin her life?

I never said that breaking commandments was meaningless. Only that it doesn't save us. Why say "Sin no more"? Simple. Sin is bad for us. As I said it ruins lives.

I never said that keeping the commandments alone saves us. We are saved through the atonement of Christ by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (not the Law of Moses)

Replacing the law of Moses with a new law changes only the words, not the principles. We fulfill the law through Christ because he fulfilled it. We don't fulfill the law because of our great obedience or anything else.

No the discussion was a direct question of "what must I do to have eternal life?" Jesus said keep the commandments... when the rich man said he had done this from a child, then Jesus said "if he would be perfect sell all he has and give to the poor and come follow me" If we follow Jesus will we be baptized as He instructed his apostles in the scripture I quoted and you chose to ignore, if we follow Jesus will we continue in sin? Will we lie, kill, steal, commit adultery, or covet? I quoted Paul in Romans but again you just ignore. I do not say we are buying our way to salvation, but if we fail to keep the commandments, if we fail to follow Jesus and obey the Gospel then we will be damned.

That is absolutely not true, Jesus Christ works through His priesthood, and through the keys of the kingdom. God reveals His will to living prophets and apostles, He also reveals the truth to those who seek for it. The great apostasy is evidence that HIs authority was lost and that many of the plain and precious things were lost from the Bible. As for modern Christians do they claim that God can reveal scripture today? Or do they claim all such things are done away? Or do they think that God can only speak through the scriptures? That sounds more like the Jews who rejected the Lord, and used the scripture then existant to do it.

I apologize that I am unable to respond to every point.

The basic principle is if you or anyone makes a requirement (or law) that we must "do" to be saved, other than being reconciled to God directly (as in relationship to him), then you've made a merit based salvation, not grace based. That is the opposite of what we read in the NT.

The law did not fail, the house of Israel rejected it they refused to listen to living prophets so all they had left was a dead form of godliness and who held their traditions and private interpretations over modern revelation. The law was a schoolmaster and if the house of Israel had obeyed they would have been ready to hear John when he came baptizing. They would not have rejected Christ and prefered Cesear as their king.

No I do not think that at all, because the Jewish Christians wanted to still accept their apostate traditions and mix them with the Gospel. The rejected the testimonies of the Prophets and Apostles. I think that the following shows how the relationship we have with God and keeping His commandments are directly related:

You cannot seperate our faith from keeping the commandments because that is how our faith as LDS is manifested. The keeping the commandments is not something we do seperate from our faith in Christ it is the evidence, the proof that our faith is real. You cannot have one without the other.

As Paul stated, "Romans 8:³ For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

⁴ That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Any sort of merit system relies on the weak arm of the flesh and will always fail. Hence, the failure of a system of laws and commandments. Jesus set up a system based on direct connection to God. Whereby he lives in us and through us (who are willing), to the extent we let him. That connection is what saves us, not the actions we do in the flesh.

Edited May 17, 2013 by danielwoods

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If you were saved based on your merits you'd have a point.

Lol So what you are saying is that once you are saved you have Eternal Security?

Does any of this indicate that God wants us to do bad things? No. What it indicates is that we aren't saved based on our merits, but our connection to God through relationship.

This is ridiculous. This is easy believism that you are preaching. Just believe. Well I got news for you. Even doing that is a work dude. You cannot separate works from faith and salvation. No works = no salvation. IE dead faith. And works does not = being perfect. But to sit here and act like you can just go commit adaultry and all is well is absurd.

[JDave]

danielwoods,

I don't know if I want to jump into the conversation as a whole, but I was wondering while reading what you believe with respect to actions taken (works effected) after one is saved. If someone is saved through a relationship with Christ, and they decide to do a good work, I think both LDS and Evangelicals agree that the work they do is a fruit whereby the relationship is seen. Most Evangelicals I have spoken with have stated that works must necessarily come out of a salvation relationship with Christ -- not that they cause the relationship, but that if the works never do come then it is evidence the relationship was never really there. So LDS and Evangelicals both agree that works are necessary, but they disagree as to the way in which they are necessary. I don't know if there was a question in there are me just wanting to see if we my thoughts were correct.

My question to you is with respect to God working through us. When that saved person mentioned above chose to do that good work, and then did the good work, at what point was God working through them? Did God cause them to make the choice to do a good work? Or did He only cause the work to be "truly good" when they did the work? Or is it more correct to say that God, by virtue of the salvation relationship, consecrated their work unto them such that it was for the welfare of their soul?

[teddyaware]

danielwoods said,

"So, he states that we should Love our enemies, bless, do good, and pray for those enemies, that we might be the children of our Father in Heaven. And why is that? "What reward have ye?" So, the whole purpose of the statement, be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect, is in the context of Heavenly rewards. It isn't a basis for salvation. It isn't the reason we get grace or heaven. Rather, it's about rewards for those who are already going."

I presume you're unaware of the fact that the above paragraph pretty much sums up what the Latter-day Saints believe. We believe all but the the sons of perdition, destined for hell, will be saved and redeemed to inherit one of the Father's many mansions of glory; but greater rewards will be bestowed upon those who demonstrate extraordinary faithfulness and diligence. The greatest reward (or gift) bestowed for extraordinary faithfulness will be exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom of God. The others are still saved but receive lesser rewards. So we're not so far apart after all... How nice!

Edited May 17, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

It wasn't yours truly but the Saviour who said "by their fruits ye shall know them."

Unfortunately that doesn't tell you if someone is saved or not.

Further, it doesn't answer the question that I asked, "Who is to question the relationship that another has with God?"

[danielwoods]

One wonders if you're being deliberately obtuse on this point. You say since the word "works" is used only once in the Lord's admonition to the Laodicean's, that means we shouldn't place any significant focus on that word. The false logic behind this idea is ridiculous, and I believe you're too intelligent to not know it is ridiculous. Ask any English major and they'll tell you this point of yours about words being insignificant to a text if they're used only once in a portion that text is absurd. I call this technique grasping at literary straws

And I call it pointing out what you are focusing on, not what the text emphasis is.

What would you have said if I had posted the Lord's words of counsel to the Thyatiran's instead of his admonition to the Laodiceans?

"18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first." (Revelation 2)

Observe that the Lord uses words of action at least four times in this one verse alone. With this passage, will you still insist these words of action are not significant to the text?

You didn't quote the whole letter. Which exposes your (again) goal of focusing on works as a necessary part of salvation.

Let's look at some of the statements in the letter that might indicate something different than what you wanted to emphasize?

v. ^{19 "}I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works"

v. 20 "I have a few things against thee..."

v. ^{21 "}And I gave her space to repent..."

^{v. 22 "}Behold, I will cast her into a bed..."

v. ^{23 "}And I will kill her children..."

v. 23 "all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts..."

v. 23 "I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

v. 24 "I will put upon you none other burden."

What is the one thing that comes through in this letter? Jesus is in control. He is the one who bless, admonishes, teaches, and punishes. Interesting huh? Verse 23 really spells out the core of it all. So, "all the churches shall know that I am he..." It's not a prophet, or an elder or a church. It's Jesus and connection to him that makes all the difference, there is but one authority.

And let me make one thing very clear, when I say a follower of Christ must bring forth actions to demonstrate he is indeed saved, I'm not talking about the works of the flesh or dead works, I'm talking about the living works of the Spirit; or in other words works that are inspired and empowered by the Spirit -- as Moroni so powerfully taught in the Book of Mormon:

"21 And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope.

22 And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity.

23 And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me.

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God."

When a man is saved, he is saved not only in word but in deed...

You said, "a follower of Christ must bring forth actions to demonstrate he is indeed saved..."

To whom must we demonstrate that we are indeed saved? And to what end? What will these people really do with that information?

If Christ is the one who saves, he's the only one that matters. Everyone else's opinion on the matter, doesn't really make a difference.

[danielwoods]

So was Paul 'in grace' at the time he was an accessory to murder? Was Moses "in grace" at the time he killed an Egyptian? Was the relationship already there or did it come after these actions/

I would say yes. They were operating within the knowledge that they had at the time.

Was the relationship already there? I would say, yes and no. There was some sort of relationship, but after Paul's encounter, and Moses' encounter it deepened significantly.

[danielwoods]

Lol So what you are saying is that once you are saved you have Eternal Security?

This is ridiculous. This is easy believism that you are preaching. Just believe. Well I got news for you. Even doing that is a work dude. You cannot separate works from faith and salvation. No works = no salvation. IE dead faith. And works does not = being perfect. But to sit here and act like you can just go commit adaultry and all is well is absurd.

If by Eternal Security you are referring to the idea that one cannot lose their faith. No.

If by Eternal Security you are referring to the idea that God keeps those who are in relationship with him, secure. Then yes.

I certainly didn't save myself. Jesus did that.

Jesus is the one who said his Yoke was easy, and his burden was light.

If you honestly think that committing a sin will be a surprise to God, or somehow break the bond created between God and his servant, then I got news for you. God is bigger.

[danielwoods]

danielwoods,

I don't know if I want to jump into the conversation as a whole, but I was wondering while reading what you believe with respect to actions taken (works effected) after one is saved. If someone is saved through a relationship with Christ, and they decide to do a good work, I think both LDS and Evangelicals agree that the work they do is a fruit whereby the relationship is seen. Most Evangelicals I have spoken with have stated that works must necessarily come out of a salvation relationship with Christ -- not that they cause the relationship, but that if the works never do come then it is evidence the relationship was never really there. So LDS and Evangelicals both agree that works are necessary, but they disagree as to the way in which they are necessary. I don't know if there was a question in there are me just wanting to see if we my thoughts were correct.

My question to you is with respect to God working through us. When that saved person mentioned above chose to do that good work, and then did the good work, at what point was God working through them? Did God cause them to make the choice to do a good work?

All good things come from God. Philippians 2:^{13 "}For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Or did He only cause the work to be "truly good" when they did the work? Or is it more correct to say that God, by virtue of the salvation relationship, consecrated their work unto them such that it was for the welfare of their soul?

I don't think it's so complicated as that. All good things come from God.

[danielwoods]

danielwoods said,

"So, he states that we should Love our enemies, bless, do good, and pray for those enemies, that we might be the children of our Father in Heaven. And why is that? "What reward have ye?" So, the whole purpose of the statement, be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect, is in the context of Heavenly rewards. It isn't a basis for salvation. It isn't the reason we get grace or heaven. Rather, it's about rewards for those who are already going."

I presume you're unaware of the fact that the above paragraph pretty much sums up what the Latter-day Saints believe. We believe all but the the sons of perdition, destined for hell, will be saved and redeemed to inherit one of the Father's many mansions of glory; but greater rewards will be bestowed upon those who demonstrate extraordinary faithfulness and diligence. The greatest reward (or gift) bestowed for extraordinary faithfulness will be exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom of God. The others are still saved but receive lesser rewards. So we're not so far apart after all... How nice!

And yet the statement "to be perfect..." is used to indicate that works are a necessary part of salvation?

[volgadon]

If you were saved based on your merits you'd have a point.

Paul was arresting christians and some were murdered (Stephen), yet is it interesting that Jesus appeared to him even while he was still "breathing murderous threats".

For the sake of accuracy, I should note that Paul did not arrest Stephen. He was not acting out of personal gain, but was motivated by a zealous regard for God.

And Moses killed an Egyptian yet he was still used by God as well.

Once again, motivation is key. Unlike my example of someone knocking down and robbing an old lady in order to fund his adultery, Moses avenged an injustice commited against his people.

God can use anyone and anything, it does not imply that they are in the same kind of relationship of which you speak. Unless, of course, you wish to claim that Caiaphas and he who came down like a wolf on the fold, his cohorts gleaming with purple and gold, were in the same kind of saving relationship with Jesus.

And through which wife of David did Jesus linage come through? (hint it was the adulterous one)

At quite a remove. Besides, we know practically nothing about her.

Does any of this indicate that God wants us to do bad things? No. What it indicates is that we aren't saved based on our merits, but our connection to God through relationship.

So can one beat up and rob little old ladies, then use their money to help one commit adultery, and still have the right kind of connection to God?

[teddyaware]

And yet the statement "to be perfect..." is used to indicate that works are a necessary part of salvation?

In the LDS religion, these are the requirements that need to be complied with in order to be saved:

1. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and acceptance of him as personal Lord and Saviour.

2. Confession of our sins and sinfulness before God.

3. Sincere repentance, including real remorse and genuine contrition for said sins and sinfulness.

4. Receiving a remission of sins from God through Christ.

5. Receiving the Holy Spirit.

6. Maintaining an abiding desire and willingness to continue to love, honor and worship God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ throughout all eternity.

Do these things and that is enough for one to be saved in one of the Father's many mansions; but greater rewards lie ahead for those who are truly valiant and not lukewarm in the testimony of Jesus.

[teddyaware]

And I call it pointing out what you are focusing on, not what the text emphasis is.

You didn't quote the whole letter. Which exposes your (again) goal of focusing on works as a necessary part of salvation.

Let's look at some of the statements in the letter that might indicate something different than what you wanted to emphasize?

v. ^{19 "}I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works"

v. 20 "I have a few things against thee..."

v. ^{21 "}And I gave her space to repent..."

^{v. 22 "}Behold, I will cast her into a bed..."

v. ^{23 "}And I will kill her children..."

v. 23 "all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts..."

v. 23 "I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

v. 24 "I will put upon you none other burden."

What is the one thing that comes through in this letter? Jesus is in control. He is the one who bless, admonishes, teaches, and punishes. Interesting huh? Verse 23 really spells out the core of it all. So, "all the churches shall know that I am he..." It's not a prophet, or an elder or a church. It's Jesus and connection to him that makes all the difference, there is but one authority.

You said, "a follower of Christ must bring forth actions to demonstrate he is indeed saved..."

To whom must we demonstrate that we are indeed saved? And to what end? What will these people really do with that information?

If Christ is the one who saves, he's the only one that matters. Everyone else's opinion on the matter, doesn't really make a difference.

It's called letting our light so shine before men, that they may see our good works, and glorify our Father which is in heaven.

[teddyaware]

Unfortunately that doesn't tell you if someone is saved or not.

Further, it doesn't answer the question that I asked, "Who is to question the relationship that another has with God?"

According to the Lord, one can observe a professed Christian's life and make a very good informed appraisal as to whether or not they are sincere in their profession.

^{15 "}Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

¹⁶ Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

¹⁷ Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

¹⁸ A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

¹⁹ Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

²⁰ Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7)

Why would the Lord teach his people this way to discern the true nature of others if he didn't mean for them to apply what they were taught? But this manner of discernment is not to be confused with God's final judgement of souls -- that's his job.

Edited May 18, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

For the sake of accuracy, I should note that Paul did not arrest Stephen. He was not acting out of personal gain, but was motivated by a zealous regard for God.

Once again, motivation is key. Unlike my example of someone knocking down and robbing an old lady in order to fund his adultery, Moses avenged an injustice commited against his people.

God can use anyone and anything, it does not imply that they are in the same kind of relationship of which you speak. Unless, of course, you wish to claim that Caiaphas and he who came down like a wolf on the fold, his cohorts gleaming with purple and gold, were in the same kind of saving relationship with Jesus.

At quite a remove. Besides, we know practically nothing about her.

So can one beat up and rob little old ladies, then use their money to help one commit adultery, and still have the right kind of connection to God?

Not sure what your point is now?

Have I said that the point of God saving us through our being connected to him gives us reason to do bad things? No.

Rather the opposite happens.

[danielwoods]

In the LDS religion, these are the requirements that need to be complied with in order to be saved:

1. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and acceptance of him as personal Lord and Saviour.

2. Confession of our sins and sinfulness before God.

3. Sincere repentance, including real remorse and genuine contrition for said sins and sinfulness.

4. Receiving a remission of sins from God through Christ.

5. Receiving the Holy Spirit.

6. Maintaining an abiding desire and willingness to continue to love, honor and worship God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ throughout all eternity.

Do these things and that is enough for one to be saved in one of the Father's many mansions; but greater rewards lie ahead for those who are truly valiant and not lukewarm in the testimony of Jesus.

You sort of left out some details.

Where'd baptism go?

And one can only receive the Holy Spirit via the proper authority?

[Tacenda]

You sort of left out some details.

Where'd baptism go?

And one can only receive the Holy Spirit via the proper authority?

I agree, Teddyaware did leave out some things. To live with God you must reach the highest kingdom which would mean you'd need to go through the temple and learn signs and symbols to prove you are one of them, Gods or Goddesses. So not so simple compared to the non LDS Christian teachings. ETA: wait, I jumped in too fast. I see that if you are to be saved then his list is correct, but if you want to live with God, it's a whole different ballgame. Edited May 18, 2013 by Tacenda

[danielwoods]

I asked, "You said, "a follower of Christ must bring forth actions to demonstrate he is indeed saved..."

To whom must we demonstrate that we are indeed saved? And to what end? What will these people really do with that information?"

It's called letting our light so shine before men, that they may see our good works, and glorify our Father which is in heaven.

Fact is non-believers (ie the world) don't care whether you're a follower of Christ or not. They aren't interested in your demonstration that you are saved or not. So, that doesn't really answer the question does it?

[danielwoods]

I agree, Teddyaware did leave out some things. To live with God you must reach the highest kingdom which would mean you'd need to go through the temple and learn signs and symbols to prove you are one of them, Gods or Goddesses. So not so simple compared to the non LDS Christian teachings. ETA: wait, I jumped in too fast. I see that if you are to be saved then his list is correct, but if you want to live with God, it's a whole different ballgame.

I don't see there is a difference. If you're not able to felllowship/live with God, you're not saved.

[danielwoods]

According to the Lord, one can observe a professed Christian's life and make a very good informed appraisal as to whether or not they are sincere in their profession.

^{15 "}Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

¹⁶ Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

¹⁷ Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

¹⁸ A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

¹⁹ Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

²⁰ Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7)

Why would the Lord teach his people this way to discern the true nature of others if he didn't mean for them to apply what they were taught? But this manner of discernment is not to be confused with God's final judgement of souls -- that's his job.

Actually it's used help determine who is a false prophet or not. Doesn't tell you if one is a christian or not. Because with teachers and prophets it helps to know if their teachings are from God or not.

And again, the question, "Further, it doesn't answer the question that I asked, "Who is to question the relationship that another has with God?""

[teddyaware]

I asked, "You said, "a follower of Christ must bring forth actions to demonstrate he is indeed saved..."

To whom must we demonstrate that we are indeed saved? And to what end? What will these people really do with that information?"

Fact is non-believers (ie the world) don't care whether you're a follower of Christ or not. They aren't interested in your demonstration that you are saved or not. So, that doesn't really answer the question does it?

Hate to say it Daniel, but you really do seem to be obtuse. Isn't it true that non-believers may become believers when they see the joy, love, peace, deep spirituality and good morals of a member of Christ's Church who sets a good example? Can you honestly say you've never heard of this idea before? Haven't you ever heard of missionary work? Don't you believe it's important to set a good exampler? Why don't you go and inquire the Lord Himself why he says it's important to let the people of the world see your good works and why you shouldn't hide our good example under a basket?

More later. It's off to a Saturday night priesthood meeting.

It's of to Saturday ni

Edited May 18, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

I agree, Teddyaware did leave out some things. To live with God you must reach the highest kingdom which would mean you'd need to go through the temple and learn signs and symbols to prove you are one of them, Gods or Goddesses. So not so simple compared to the non LDS Christian teachings. ETA: wait, I jumped in too fast. I see that if you are to be saved then his list is correct, but if you want to live with God, it's a whole different ballgame.

The list includes the basic requirements in order for one to be saved and redeemed of the Lord in the telestial kingdom. The higher glories are reserved as rewards for those who are more valiant; this is especially true of those who inherit the celestial glory.

[danielwoods]

Hate to say it Daniel, but you really do seem to be obtuse. Isn't it true that non-believers may become believers when they see the joy, love, peace, deep spirituality and good morals of a member of Christ's Church who sets a good example? Can you honestly say you've never heard of this idea before? Haven't you ever heard of missionary work? Don't you believe it's important to set a good exampler? Why don't you go and inquire the Lord Himself why he says it's important to let the people of the world see your good works and why you shouldn't hide our good example under a basket?

More later. It's off to a Saturday night priesthood meeting.

It's of to Saturday ni

Doesn't really matter whose obtuse. Can you answer the question?

danielwoods, on 18 May 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

I asked, "You said, "a follower of Christ must bring forth actions to demonstrate he is indeed saved..."

To whom must we demonstrate that we are indeed saved? And to what end? What will these people really do with that information?"

To whom *must* we demonstrate that we are indeed saved?

[danielwoods]

The list includes the basic requirements in order for one to be saved and redeemed of the Lord in the telestial kingdom. The higher glories are reserved as rewards for those who are more valiant; this is especially true of those who inherit the celestial glory.

So, according to LDS teaching, one can have the Holy Spirit and fellowship with Christ here on Earth, but not in the heaven?

[Lightbearer]

God's spirit works through humble and willing hearts. That's all I mean. I think on that point we agree?

Yes we can agree on that point. In order for the atonement to work in our lives it requires a “broken heart and a contrite spirit” or we cannot be saved.

The reason we were given our agency wasn't as a test (in my opinion), rather it gives meaning to the love relationship we have with our Creator. Without which our relationship would be no different than a robotic one.

On the contrary the reason we were given agency is so we could learn to choose good over evil. Without agency, law, responsibility, and consequences existence would be meaningless we could not develop faith (trust In God) and so there would be no relationship except being a puppet or robot programmed by God. We are a little different than other creations of God, we are His offspring. Thus we are made in His image and likeness. So we inherit the ability to choose, but the choice is ours. God may entice or persuade us and the Adversary or Satan may tempt us, but the choice and thus the consequences are our own. But because He loves us and wants us to choose Him, He has provided a means of overcoming the effects of the fall and our own wrong choices. He sent His only begotten Son in the flesh, even Jesus Christ to be our example that we must follow. In addition Christ paid the price of our sins if we will repent and follow Him. The choosing to follow the Son of God manifests it self in a covenant relationship, which is what baptism is and why it is an essential ordinance much like a marriage license. (Not a perfect analogy but I think you get the point) Without the ordinance of baptism by the proper priesthood authority then the relationship is not valid. The Book of Mormon elaborates on the importance of this ordinance:

“Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world. And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water! And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water? Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments. Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove. And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them. And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father? And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel. But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me. And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.”

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:4 - 16)

Now I know you do not believe the Book of Mormon, but I quote it here so that you may understand the LDS position. We believe these words to be the words of Christ and we accept them as we do the Bible. We believe some things have been lost from the Bible and or can be interpreted so differently that it is often hard to understand the original teachings. Note here that baptism is a covenant relationship and that it is not just an outward ritual with no inward meaning. While we do rely upon the merits and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ we do believe that we are responsible for our actions and that we must endure in faith to the end or we cannot be saved.

I haven't ignored James or anything. I haven't had the time to respond to everything you've brought up. I've attempted to tackle the concepts you are bringing up. James like all the others point out that keeping the commands is the net result of real faith/real relationship with God.

It seems like ignoring it, why did James even write what he did if the Saints were getting the idea that keeping the commandments were not required and the Christ “did it all” meaning that they could be saved “in their sins” instead of being saved “from their sins” I believe that is the distinct difference he was trying to make. I think he was talking to those who continued to live after the manner of the world even after they were baptized and supposed to be living as Saints.

Adam did sin, and yet he still remained in relationship with God didn't he? The net result of sin is what? Pain and suffering, not unforgiveness or a broken relationship. So, we should avoid sin, right? Why? because it causes us and others pain and suffering.

Actually Adam fell, and was cast out of the garden, he died both spiritually and temporally. The result of sin is DEATH. Meaning spiritual death or being cut off from God’s presence. Adam was not redeemed until after his repentance and making a covenant with God so he could return to His presence. The effect of breaking our covenant is the same as sinning, we are cut off from God’s spirit until we repent and draw near unto Him and renew our covenant we make at baptism.

Anytime an person says that we must do something, that is an indication of a requirement is it not? When I hear you say that "repentance is a daily necessary process, it is how we follow Jesus." I hear a requirement for "keeping saved" so to speak. It sounds more like a law than a connection to God. Something along the line of something I must do. Now maybe I'm hearing you wrong. That's just how it comes across.

Yes absolutely that is the requirement, to keep the covenant we make with God, without this there is no relationship, we are no longer sons but are disinherited. It is like the house of Israel, they were chosen as His people, yet when they sinned against the covenant they lost their relationship as God’s people. So also without our following Christ with living faith (as James taught) then we will loose our relationship and status with God. In fact our dear brother Paul indicated this here:

“Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 9:24 - 27)

We must run the race, We must strive to follow Christ and keep the covenant so that we may have the relationship of being a son of God, so we may be the bride prepared for the bridegroom.

Now, Jesus said, be perfect, right? What is the context, shall we look at that?

Matt. 5:^{43 "}Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

⁴⁴ But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

⁴⁵ That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

⁴⁶ For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

⁴⁷ And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

⁴⁸ Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

So, he states that we should Love our enemies, bless, do good, and pray for those enemies, that we might be the children of our Father in Heaven. And why is that? "What reward have ye?" So, the whole purpose of the statement, be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect, is in the context of Heavenly rewards. It isn't a basis for salvation. It isn't the reason we get grace or heaven. Rather, it's about rewards for those who are already going.

Ha Ha! You really cannot see it! What is a reward if not eternal life? For if one has eternal life, the greatest of all the gifts of God what need have we of a reward beyond that? I see the context entirely, we must keep the commandments to be perfect!

This is being perfect in a finite since, because without the resurrection our bodies are still subject to the fall. The flesh is indeed weak, but the spirit must be willing and trying to follow Christ in that strait and narrow path. Otherwise we are following the devil and are his sheep not the sheep of the good shepherd.

How do we reject God's love? I think their are many ways of doing this. Ultimately it rests on our attitude toward God. Did Peter reject God? Yes and no. Peter was scared and made a mistake. Sin if you will. However, that doesn't mean that Peter lost faith and his relationship completely.Jesus told him to feed my sheep. Yes indeed. He was now to be teacher. Did his salvation rest on obeying this command? No. His salvation, like ours, rests on our relationship/connection to the one who saves.

No Peter did not reject his Lord, he had a moment of weakness and repented and did as His Lord required of Him, because if He had not done so He would not have really loved the Savior. It is a twisted view of following God to say that if we disobey God we can stay in our relationship with Him. What kind of relationship is it. If is compared to a marriage, then straying from that trust or love would be like committing adultery. Perhaps that is why God compares this wicked world to a harlot. The question is how can we be connected to Christ and God and at the same time serve the devil?

I never said that breaking commandments was meaningless. Only that it doesn't save us. Why say "Sin no more"? Simple. Sin is bad for us. As I said it ruins lives.

So sinning does not damn us? I am not talking about repented sin, forsaken sin, I am talking about continuing in sin after we have made a covenant relationship with God? Of course sin is bad for us and ruins lives… but is that the only reason sin is bad? How can sin not be a betrayal of our relationship with God? The following brings the question of keeping the commandments being important:

“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.” (New Testament | Revelation 14:12 - 13)

So does this not say keeping the commandments of God is important?

Replacing the law of Moses with a new law changes only the words, not the principles. We fulfill the law through Christ because he fulfilled it. We don't fulfill the law because of our great obedience or anything else.

The Book of Mormon records the words of Christ on this subject thus:

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfil; For verily I say unto you, one jot nor one tittle hath not passed away from the law, but in me it hath all been fulfilled. And behold, I have given you the law and the commandments of my Father, that ye shall believe in me, and that ye shall repent of your sins, and come unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Behold, ye have the commandments before you, and the law is fulfilled. Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 12:17-20)

Christ is the giver both of the Law of Moses and the Law of the Gospel. Obedience is the first law of heaven and if we do not learn obedience by the things that we suffer as Christ did, then we will not be with God and Christ worlds without end.

The basic principle is if you or anyone makes a requirement (or law) that we must "do" to be saved, other than being reconciled to God directly (as in relationship to him), then you've made a merit based salvation, not grace based. That is the opposite of what we read in the NT.

What is God is the one who makes that requirement as part of being reconciled to Him. Mercy cannot rob justice, and grace cannot replace personal responsibility and no matter how anyone tries to misinterpret the New Testament that is not it’s message. Grace alone or faith alone will not save us.

As Paul stated, "Romans 8:³ For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

⁴ That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Any sort of merit system relies on the weak arm of the flesh and will always fail. Hence, the failure of a system of laws and commandments. Jesus set up a system based on direct connection to God. Whereby he lives in us and through us (who are willing), to the extent we let him. That connection is what saves us, not the actions we do in the flesh.

Your argument keeps sounding like a paradox like “Can God make a rock so big He can’t lift it?” You presume that God cannot make any requirements for salvation or it is no longer grace! The restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a system of laws and commadments given by men in the flesh. It is based on revelation, not just ancient, but modern revelation and so we do not just depend on secular learning or scholarly interpretations of the Bible but it is a revelation of Jesus Christ that applies to our day and corrects the false doctrine of the apostasy. Grace vs. Works is an idea argued by Christian churches for over 2000 years. The very reason there are so many different churches all teaching from the Bible is that they cannot agree upon the correct interpretation of the Bible. But note what Paul is actually saying, if we do the works of the flesh (meaning sinning) but walk after the spirit (keeping the commandments of God or not sinning). So he is validating the very point I have been trying to make throughout this thread, we cannot walk by the spirit and continue the sins of the flesh, we must repent and forsake them and avoid future sin! That is not being forgiven by our own merits but it is keeping ourselves clean of the sins of the world. It is following Christ’s perfect example and pressing forward until we are perfect in Christ and are holy and without spot. We need the grace of Christ to do this. As LDS we do this as we have His spirit to always be with us as we strive to keep the covenant we make at baptism and we renew each week as we partake of the sacrament. The following scripture from the Book of Mormon says it all:

“And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ. And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God. And I would that ye should remember also, that this is the name that I said I should give unto you that never should be blotted out, except it be through transgression; therefore, take heed that ye do not transgress, that the name be not blotted out of your hearts. I say unto you, I would that ye should remember to retain the name written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the left hand of God, but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be called, and also, the name by which he shall call you. For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart? And again, doth a man take an *** which belongeth to his neighbor, and keep him? I say unto you, Nay; he will not even suffer that he shall feed among his flocks, but will drive him away, and cast him out. I say unto you, that even so shall it be among you if ye know not the name by which ye are called. Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.” (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 5:7-15)

I believe this passage explains how we as LDS are in a covenant relationship with God and how we can keep and loose our standing.