Brad Wilcox'S View On Grace

[Lightbearer]

I can see the difficulty here. Interpreting the 1 John passage as you do. The question then do you sin? Of course we all do. So, then what is John really saying here? I think the answer is in the greek tense that is used here. (sorry don't have time to look it up) But, the meaning is one who continues to live a life of sin. It doesn't mean believers don't sin at all.

As for the idea of working out our salvation with fear and trembling. The statement is made to believers, who are already saved, right? So, it can only refer to learning and growing in Christ, not salvation.

Of course the statement is to believers, that is my point. You are under the assumption that when one is converted to Christ then they are already “saved” or rather their calling and election is made sure. That is not what happens as evidenced by the very quote we are talking about. It does not say “learning and growing in Christ” it says “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”! You are not addressing what the scripture says, you are making assumptions because of your preconceived ideas about salvation by grace alone. You may gloss over this scripture and try to paraphrase it in a way that is more acceptable to your point of view but that does not change the scripture itself.

As for the question, "can we be saved and disobey?" Of course. The very basis of sin is disobedience, and since we weren't saved based on our great and mighty ability to obey, rather our willingness to be in a relationship with him.

We are saved through the atonement of Christ but if we willfully disobey the Lord then we are not going to be saved unless we repent for God will not save us IN OUR SINS. There is a distinct difference between that and being saved from our sins. Mercy cannot rob justice. If all one must do to be saved is just believe in Christ without the actions of faith then the whole purpose of Christ’s atonement is not to change us to a holy being, but to excuse us from being unholy. If we do not practice what we preach then what separates us from the hypocritical Jews who rejected Christ? I have shown countless scriptures in the New Testament that says we not only must believe but we must do. Here is just one example:

“As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (New Testament | John 15:9-10)

That sounds like a way to keep the relationship with have with God. Does that mean that if we do not keep the commandments we do not abide in His love?

The following indicates we must lay aside sin and run the race:

“WHEREFORE seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (New Testament | Hebrews 12:1-2)

The point at which one falls from grace, only God knows. So, I can't answer that question, and really no one can. I have no idea why one would want to forsake that connection one has with God.

Yet it does happen, that is my point, if we do not endure to the end we could end up like those Peter spoke of and although I hate to be repetitious but there were Saints in Peter’s day who fell away from the truth and returned to sin, I do not know why either, but the fact that they can do so indicates that a person who has made that relationship with God can sin against it as stated here again:

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.” (New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20 - 22)

It appears you are trying to say that "faith" is something we do. Yet, in that passage it plainly states that faith is a gift of God. So, indeed, the verse does state that it we are saved by grace alone.

Again, it appears that the two verses (one from the NT and one from the BoM) have different messages.

Yes your interpretation of the NT is very different from the Book of Mormon. Faith is a principle of power and action. If we have faith we will do the works of God, we will refrain from sin, we will keep His commandments. We will repent and follow the path Christ has set for us. Consider this:

“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” (New Testament | Hebrews 11:6)

Faith is something we do, it is a choice, or we can choose unbelief. The actions of faith is what James was talking about that was why he said the following:

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (New Testament | James 2:14-17)

Now I cannot see how faith alone can save us in light of what he says here?

[danielwoods]

Just curious, how would you interpret Christ's words to Peter

Mattt 16 [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: andwhatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The LDS would interpret these keys as the priesthood authority which were conferred on the Twelve when Christ ordained them.

Matt. 16: 19 and Matt. 18:18 use the same wording.

The KJV states, "16:¹⁹ And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

and 18:¹⁸ “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Now what is interesting is that the word "bound" in the english is in the future tense. However, in the Greek it is in the past tense, what it should say is "having been bound."

The New American Standard version gets it right, 16:^{19 "}I will give you ^(AA)the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and^(AB)whatever you bind on earth^[n]shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth ^[o]shall have been loosed in heaven.”

and 18:^{18 "}Truly I say to you, ^(Q)whatever you ^[q]bind on earth ^[r]shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you^[s]loose on earth ^[t]shall have been loosed in heaven."

Now the curious thing is why use the words Bind and Loose? The answer is found in Jewish terminology, where "Binding and Loosing" refer to a Rabbinical term for "forbidding and permitting." In other words the disciples were given the authority to proclaim that which was already loosed or bound in heaven, to those on earth. A great example of this is Acts 15, where they got together and determined that the Gentiles didn't need to follow the Mosaic law to be saved, because that is what Heaven (God) revealed to them.

The Amplified bible get's it right as well:

16:^{19 "}I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind (declare to be improper and unlawful) on earth^[i]must be what is already bound in heaven; and whatever you loose (declare lawful) on earth^[j]must be what is already loosed in heaven.^(B)"

^{18:18 "}Truly I tell you, whatever you forbid and declare to be improper and unlawful on earth must be ^[e]what is already forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit and declare proper and lawful on earth must be ^[f]what is already permitted in heaven."

*Thanks by the way. Your question prompted me to look into this verse further than I had before. And finding this Greek gem was fun.

[danielwoods]

You didn't really address my logic. You just restated your position. I actually quite interested in your view on the juxtaposition of Phillipians 2:12 and 2:13, as well as how man can be culpable for damnation yet not salvation.

I don't see Phillipians 2:12 and 13 as opposing each other, rather a connected and complete thought. "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. ¹³ For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

In essence, Paul is calling continued growth in the lord, "our salvation" and, we have great respect for this work, because it is actually God who is working in us, we are just letting him do it.

As for your question, "how man can be culpable for damnation yet not salvation." Simple.

In one case we are responsible for rejecting the free gift of salvation. In the other hand, we didn't and couldn't have saved ourselves.

In essence, our damnation is dependent on our rejection of a relationship with God ("Depart from me I never *knew* you), and our salvation is dependent on the acceptance of that relationship with God.

I hope that answers the question more directly.

If we truly have zero to add to salvation then there are only two options for anyone to be saved (that I can see)

1. God saves everyone

2. God chooses certain people to save and certain people not to save

God choose to save everyone, but not everyone chooses God. In essence, the almighty God did everything, so we don't add to our salvation, we simply open the door so to speak.

I think I agree with this, but you make it sound so passive on our part. As long as we don't actively fight God, then He will make us wonderful and amazing -- and we can just sit back and allow it to happen! Why even refer to it as a reward?

He is the master craftsman. We are rewarded for letting him create us into his own image. It's not our job to change ourselves.

A statement is made that if we "strive harder, work harder we will become more like God." This is false in my view. Why? Because it misses the point of relationship. In essence, are you more married if you strive harder? No. Are you more of a Son if you work harder? No. Relationships grow with time, and that's how God designed it. "I desire mercy not sacrifice."

If man is truly that depraved, then salvation becomes somewhat meaningless for me. It sounds like you're saying that God created man, but since His creation is in an utterly depraved state God chose to rescue them -- like rescuing an unconcious kitten out of a burning building.

I agree that there are things we are incapable of, barriers that we cannot overcome, and heights that we simply cannot ascend. But we are not utterly helpless in every regard. We are not dependent on the caprice of God to choose whether to pluck us out of that burning building (or not, according to His desires). We are not unconcious; we are very aware of what is going on and we have the power to choose to accept God's outstretched hands and we have the power to physically reach out with our own hands to grasp God's hands. I believe God's hands are outstretched to each and every one of His children. The way is prepared so that we may take hold and walk with God. And God entreats us to do so, knowing that the power is within us, within you and me. If it were not then all the exhortations in the scriptures would be pointless. Salvation itself would be pointless and meaningless.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

Not even our faith is "of ourselves" it too is a gift of God.

[teddyaware]

Of course the statement is to believers, that is my point. You are under the assumption that when one is converted to Christ then they are already “saved” or rather their calling and election is made sure. That is not what happens as evidenced by the very quote we are talking about. It does not say “learning and growing in Christ” it says “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”! You are not addressing what the scripture says, you are making assumptions because of your preconceived ideas about salvation by grace alone. You may gloss over this scripture and try to paraphrase it in a way that is more acceptable to your point of view but that does not change the scripture itself.

We are saved through the atonement of Christ but if we willfully disobey the Lord then we are not going to be saved unless we repent for God will not save us IN OUR SINS. There is a distinct difference between that and being saved from our sins. Mercy cannot rob justice. If all one must do to be saved is just believe in Christ without the actions of faith then the whole purpose of Christ’s atonement is not to change us to a holy being, but to excuse us from being unholy. If we do not practice what we preach then what separates us from the hypocritical Jews who rejected Christ? I have shown countless scriptures in the New Testament that says we not only must believe but we must do. Here is just one example:

That sounds like a way to keep the relationship with have with God. Does that mean that if we do not keep the commandments we do not abide in His love?

The following indicates we must lay aside sin and run the race:

Yet it does happen, that is my point, if we do not endure to the end we could end up like those Peter spoke of and although I hate to be repetitious but there were Saints in Peter’s day who fell away from the truth and returned to sin, I do not know why either, but the fact that they can do so indicates that a person who has made that relationship with God can sin against it as stated here again:

Yes your interpretation of the NT is very different from the Book of Mormon. Faith is a principle of power and action. If we have faith we will do the works of God, we will refrain from sin, we will keep His commandments. We will repent and follow the path Christ has set for us. Consider this:

Faith is something we do, it is a choice, or we can choose unbelief. The actions of faith is what James was talking about that was why he said the following:

Now I cannot see how faith alone can save us in light of what he says here?

Excellent!

In a certain sense faith alone in the atonement does save actually us, because that faith is the activating "first cause," if you will; the first cause of action that inspires us to come unto Christ and endure to the end in living his gospel. Without having living faith in Christ as the first cause of action in the children of God, one is merely going through the motions with dead works (works devoid of the gifts and powers of God by the Spirit), much like the scribes and pharisees in Jesus day. As Latter-day Saints, we are taught that living faith is actually the power of God, the divine power that enables us to not only outwardly act like Him, but to think like Him and even feel emotions as He feels them as well. This is all well-explained in the Lectures on Faith. Again, without living faith as the first cause, we are simply going through the motions.

Where we may differ from Daniel in this regard is that we believe although faith is a powerful gift of God, it doesn't rob us of our free agency, like some form of spiritual possession, taking over our individual minds, hearts, and spirits. Rather, we believe the gift of faith, though infinitely powerful, does not act upon the children of God with the least degree compulsion, or irresistable persuasion, if you will, over human minds and hearts. We are told faith is the very power God himself uses to create worlds without number. For His children, faith is an infinitely and eternally powerful resource to be freely drawn upon, internalized and utilized by intelligent free agents. The Lord describes it this way:

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever. (D&C 121)

Edited May 23, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

I apologize, I do not know what you are asking, if you could restate it (you were right these posts are getting hard to answer all in one post) Are you asking if we had agency in heaven (the premortal life)? If so the answer is yes. Dp you mean do we continue to have agency after death? I would say yes. We always have agency. The point I was trying to make was that there are always consequences to agency that is why one third of the hosts of heaven were cast out with Lucifer (Satan) in the war in heaven.

Right, we mostly agree on this. That was my question, about agency in Heaven in the future. To me it gives meaning to our relationship to God.

The reference to Aaron being called of God is the same as Peter, or Paul or anyone else, I was pointing out that it must be done by revelation from God, that priesthood must be confired by someone who has it (Moses in the case of Aaron). That is why I linked Joseph Smith history to show where our claim to authority comes from, angelic messengers, John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John. We do not just point to a passage to the Bible and pretend that is where our authority comes from it must be restored since it was lost. But if you like I will quote some more that allude to the necessity for authority. As was already mentioned on this thread by someone else mentioned the following:

What were these keys if not priesthood power?

Again the following:

So the Lord calls His own servants. Does this address the question?

I answered the question about this passage in a previous post, if that doesn't address your question, let me know.

As for the reference to it all must be done by revelation from God. I agree, every believer is a priest and called by God specifically by revelation. Jesus is the one and only caller and anointer of his followers. There is no other authority on earth that is a middle man. So, in that sense, your reference to what Jesus said only supports my view.

As to your reference to the "restoration" I don't see how that's relevant to asking about the NT. Your admission, "We do not just point to a passage to the Bible and pretend that is where our authority comes from it must be restored since it was lost." makes my point. It isn't in the NT.

[danielwoods]

Weren't you the one who wanted to see examples from the New Testament of commissioned servants of the Lord who were chosen and authorized by Him and to perform the ordinances of the gospel?

In answer to your question as to whether or not baptism is essential to salvation, I offer the following:

14 ¶Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16)

I'm sorry but the burden is on you to demonstrate that getting wet in water makes us saved. Even this verse doesn't demonstrate that. Because if it did, why wasn't baptism mentioned in the final phrase, "he that believeth not shall be damned."? Why isn't it mentioned every single time through out the NT when salvation is talked about?

[teddyaware]

I'm sorry but the burden is on you to demonstrate that getting wet in water makes us saved. Even this verse doesn't demonstrate that. Because if it did, why wasn't baptism mentioned in the final phrase, "he that believeth not shall be damned."? Why isn't it mentioned every single time through out the NT when salvation is talked about?

The qualifIer of obeying the Lord's commandment to be baptized goes only to those who believe; they must not only believe --according to the plain meaning of the Lord's own words -- but submit to baptism as well if they want to be saved. It goes without saying that those who don't believe aren't going to be baptized because baptism is only for the believers. Make sense? Like I say, your template is so firmly affixed in your mind that not even the plain, unambiguous words of the Lord will sway you.

[danielwoods]

Of course the statement is to believers, that is my point. You are under the assumption that when one is converted to Christ then they are already “saved” or rather their calling and election is made sure. That is not what happens as evidenced by the very quote we are talking about. It does not say “learning and growing in Christ” it says “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”! You are not addressing what the scripture says, you are making assumptions because of your preconceived ideas about salvation by grace alone. You may gloss over this scripture and try to paraphrase it in a way that is more acceptable to your point of view but that does not change the scripture itself.

We are saved through the atonement of Christ but if we willfully disobey the Lord then we are not going to be saved unless we repent for God will not save us IN OUR SINS. There is a distinct difference between that and being saved from our sins. Mercy cannot rob justice.

Your point here is repeating what you've said before. God will not save us in our sins. This is patently false. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom. 5:8 )

He certainly did save us in our sins. He didn't tell his first followers to become clean and sin free first before following him. Nope. He just said, "follow me."

Your argument is based on 1 Jn. 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not..."

However, as I pointed out last time, this isn't what the Greek states. It doesn't state that those who are born of God "sinneth not" Rather, as the Amplified Bible translates it, "We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin..."

Another place where John makes a similar statement is in 1Jn. 3:⁶ Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

Again, the Amplified Bible, "⁶ No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains ^[e]in communion with and in obedience to Him—deliberately, knowingly, and^[f]habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]."

The greek tense used here refers to a continuous action, like one who habitually does something. That is what John is saying. If we are connected to him in relationship "abide in him" we don't habitually sin. He is not saying we won't ever sin. That is clear from his other statement about forgiveness.

So does God save us in our sin? Of course he does.

Now you stated, "You are under the assumption that when one is converted to Christ then they are already “saved” or rather their calling and election is made sure. That is not what happens as evidenced by the very quote we are talking about."

The context of all of Paul's message is overwhelming, that conversion means relationship means saved.

As paul states in Titus 3:^{5 "}Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us."

Romans 10:⁹ If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,you will be saved.

¹⁰ For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.¹¹ As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”^[e]12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

¹³ for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

So, when we come to Phillipians 2:^{12 "}Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

We can't ignore the context of Paul's teachings. So, we have to understand that he was talking to believers who are already saved. That they must continue to work out or grow in their own salvation, or relationship with God. Now, if you wish to contend that he's saying that they aren't really saved until they work something out, please by all means point to the scriptures that demonstrate Paul's teaching on this matter.

If all one must do to be saved is just believe in Christ without the actions of faith then the whole purpose of Christ’s atonement is not to change us to a holy being, but to excuse us from being unholy. If we do not practice what we preach then what separates us from the hypocritical Jews who rejected Christ? I have shown countless scriptures in the New Testament that says we not only must believe but we must do. Here is just one example:

The difference is that Christ changes us from the inside out. We are loved into obedience verses commanded into obedience, if that makes sense. God draws us by his love. I'm not saying we don't "do" his commands. I'm saying that isn't what saves us, and God draws us into this place by his love.

It's similar to exercise. If you exercise to stay fit, that's good, right? Well, if you exercise for fun, simply because you like playing basketball for example, then you stay fit at the same time. The person who only exercises to stay fit, may be more likely to stop because it really isn't their passion. They just do it to stay fit. However, the person who loves to play ball will do it until they can't play anymore, because it's their passion.

This is analogous to our relationship with God. If we only follow his commands because someone told us that's what are "supposed to do, to achieve this or that" then it just becomes work. And we do it, but we aren't passionate about it. But, if we are drawn by his love and grace for us, and understand all he's done for us, we want to learn and grow more. We want to follow him in every way possible. We are passionate about following his commands, not because someone has told us to do this or that. But, because we have a strong connection to him through relationship that we feel what he feels. We want what he wants. And as a result we do what he wants.

I'm hoping you see the difference.

That sounds like a way to keep the relationship with have with God. Does that mean that if we do not keep the commandments we do not abide in His love?

The following indicates we must lay aside sin and run the race:

Yet it does happen, that is my point, if we do not endure to the end we could end up like those Peter spoke of and although I hate to be repetitious but there were Saints in Peter’s day who fell away from the truth and returned to sin, I do not know why either, but the fact that they can do so indicates that a person who has made that relationship with God can sin against it as stated here again:

Yes your interpretation of the NT is very different from the Book of Mormon. Faith is a principle of power and action. If we have faith we will do the works of God, we will refrain from sin, we will keep His commandments. We will repent and follow the path Christ has set for us. Consider this:

Faith is something we do, it is a choice, or we can choose unbelief. The actions of faith is what James was talking about that was why he said the following:

Now I cannot see how faith alone can save us in light of what he says here?

Faith alone saves us. But, as James points out it is a particular type of faith. The type of faith that produces results.

Edited May 23, 2013 by danielwoods

[Tacenda]

Your point here is repeating what you've said before. God will not save us in our sins. This is patently false. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom. 5:8 )

He certainly did save us in our sins. He didn't tell his first followers to become clean and sin free first before following him. Nope. He just said, "follow me."

Your argument is based on 1 Jn. 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not..."

However, as I pointed out last time, this isn't what the Greek states. It doesn't state that those who are born of God "sinneth not" Rather, as the Amplified Bible translates it, "We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin..."

Another place where John makes a similar statement is in 1Jn. 3:⁶ Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

Again, the Amplified Bible, "⁶ No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains ^[e]in communion with and in obedience to Him—deliberately, knowingly, and^[f]habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]."

The greek tense used here refers to a continuous action, like one who habitually does something. That is what John is saying. If we are connected to him in relationship "abide in him" we don't habitually sin. He is not saying we won't ever sin. That is clear from his other statement about forgiveness.

So does God save us in our sin? Of course he does.

Now you stated, "You are under the assumption that when one is converted to Christ then they are already “saved” or rather their calling and election is made sure. That is not what happens as evidenced by the very quote we are talking about."

The context of all of Paul's message is overwhelming, that conversion means relationship means saved.

As paul states in Titus 3:^{5 "}Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us."

Romans 10:⁹ If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,you will be saved.

¹⁰ For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.¹¹ As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”^[e]12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

¹³ for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

So, when we come to Phillipians 2:^{12 "}Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

We can't ignore the context of Paul's teachings. So, we have to understand that he was talking to believers who are already saved. That they must continue to work out or grow in their own salvation, or relationship with God. Now, if you wish to contend that he's saying that they aren't really saved until they work something out, please by all means point to the scriptures that demonstrate Paul's teaching on this matter.

The difference is that Christ changes us from the inside out. We are loved into obedience verses commanded into obedience, if that makes sense. God draws us by his love. I'm not saying we don't "do" his commands. I'm saying that isn't what saves us, and God draws us into this place by his love.

It's similar to exercise. If you exercise to stay fit, that's good, right? Well, if you exercise for fun, simply because you like playing basketball for example, then you stay fit at the same time. The person who only exercises to stay fit, may be more likely to stop because it really isn't their passion. They just do it to stay fit. However, the person who loves to play ball will do it until they can't play anymore, because it's their passion.

This is analogous to our relationship with God. If we only follow his commands because someone told us that's what are "supposed to do, to achieve this or that" then it just becomes work. And we do it, but we aren't passionate about it. But, if we are drawn by his love and grace for us, and understand all he's done for us, we want to learn and grow more. We want to follow him in every way possible. We are passionate about following his commands, not because someone has told us to do this or that. But, because we have a strong connection to him through relationship that we feel what he feels. We want what he wants. And as a result we do what he wants.

I'm hoping you see the difference.

Faith alone saves us. But, as James points out it is a particular type of faith. The type of faith that produces results.

Great anology, and I think God sees the difference, and it may make all the difference, sort of a born again experience which is where it's at. But maybe one will start out the work then gain the regenerative heart through the process. First time I'd ever really heard of regenerative, was from a born again. These adjectives are not really spoken of much as LDS.

[JDave]

daniel,

In what was do you feel that agency gives meaning to our relationship with God? You say that "not everyone chooses God" but then you say "Not even our faith is "of ourselves" it too is a gift of God". The only times I have seen you affirm man's agency is to say that man can choose to reject God.

I think you have presented also a very qualified idea of not rejecting God and instead passively allowing Him to work in us by way of the faith that He gave us as a gift in the first place. But I don't see how that gives us any meaningful sense of agency. Any time I might have used my agency to do some good thing, it was really because of God. But any time I might have used my agency to do some bad thing, it was really because of me.

[JDave]

Great anology, and I think God sees the difference, and it may make all the difference, sort of a born again experience which is where it's at. But maybe one will start out the work then gain the regenerative heart through the process. First time I'd ever really heard of regenerative, was from a born again. These adjectives are not really spoken of much as LDS.

I like that analogy too. The gospel should always result in changing us on the inside. The truly beautiful thing about the gospel is that someone can start 'exercising' only because it is necessary to become fit, but then they start to truly enjoy it for its own sake. I think it is the rare exception, however, to simply take up exercising (for the very first time) because we truly love and enjoy exercising. The born again experience, that process of replacing our stony heart with one of flesh (the regenerative heart), is much more of a process than an event. We start exercising and find that we come to love it.

So don't feel too bad if you haven't experienced some incredibly pivotal experience. As President Benson stated,

We must be careful, as we seek to become more and more godlike, that we do not become discouraged and lose hope. Becoming Christlike is a lifetime pursuit and very often involves growth and change that is slow, almost imperceptible. The scriptures record remarkable accounts of men whose lives changed dramatically, in an instant as it were: Alma the Younger, Paul on the road to Damascus, Enos praying far into the night, King Lamoni. Such astonishing examples of the power to change even those steeped in sin give confidence that the Atonement can reach even those deepest in despair.

But we must be cautious as we discuss these remarkable examples. Though they be real and powerful, they are the exception more than the rule. For every Paul, for every Enos, and for every King Lamoni, there are hundreds and thousands of people who find the process of repentance much more subtle, much more imperceptible. Day by day they move closer to the Lord, little realizing they are building a godlike life. They live quiet lives of goodness, service, and commitment. They are like the Lamanites, who the Lord said “were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not”

Edited May 23, 2013 by JDave

[Lightbearer]

Your point here is repeating what you've said before. God will not save us in our sins. This is patently false. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom. 5:8 )

He certainly did save us in our sins. He didn't tell his first followers to become clean and sin free first before following him. Nope. He just said, "follow me."

It seems as if the problem here is one of definitions and interpretations. God cannot save us in our sins. If we repent then He can save us from our sins. Follow me, what exactly does that mean? Jesus is the only sinless man who ever lived so He could literally say this with no reservation. If one follows Jesus what must one do? Jesus was baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness. Baptism was unto repentance, John required his followers to bring forth fruit meet for repentance. After His baptism He was tempted of the Devil, yet He endured those temptations and lived by every word that came from His Father.

Your argument is based on 1 Jn. 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not..."

However, as I pointed out last time, this isn't what the Greek states. It doesn't state that those who are born of God "sinneth not" Rather, as the Amplified Bible translates it, "We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin..."

Another place where John makes a similar statement is in 1Jn. 3:⁶ Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

Again, the Amplified Bible, "⁶ No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains ^[e]in communion with and in obedience to Him—deliberately, knowingly, and^[f]habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]."

The greek tense used here refers to a continuous action, like one who habitually does something. That is what John is saying. If we are connected to him in relationship "abide in him" we don't habitually sin. He is not saying we won't ever sin. That is clear from his other statement about forgiveness.

The greek version is very interesting because it proves my point that I have been trying to make this entire thread. “No one who abides in Him… who lives and remains in communion with Him deliberately, knowingly, and habitually commits sin! I agree 100 % Yes it is a continuing action. True that does not mean we do not all sin, we do but if we repent we will get back on the path to eternal life! That is what I am saying. But that means that our agency is involved, if we sin we can repent (meaning change our actions) become better each day until we become perfect In Christ. This does not mean we are doing it “on our own” or apart from the atonement of Christ. It is the atonement that makes our perfecting our lives possible.

So does God save us in our sin? Of course he does.

Now you stated, "You are under the assumption that when one is converted to Christ then they are already “saved” or rather their calling and election is made sure. That is not what happens as evidenced by the very quote we are talking about."

The context of all of Paul's message is overwhelming, that conversion means relationship means saved.

As paul states in Titus 3:^{5 "}Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us."

But it does not mean salvation in our willful sinning as the above greek quote from John declares. As for the scripture in Titus, let us look at a little more of the passage:

“ Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.” (New Testament | Titus 3:5-

The washing of regeneration is Baptism and the renewing of the Holy Ghost is done through worthy partaking of the sacrament to renew our baptismal covenant. Here again it speaks of maintaining good works. Not that the good works in and of themselves save us, but it is an expression of our faith. Again the “works of faith” that are required of one who is a follower of Christ.

Romans 10:⁹ If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,you will be saved.

¹⁰ For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.¹¹ As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”^[e]12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

¹³ for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

So, when we come to Phillipians 2:^{12 "}Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

We can't ignore the context of Paul's teachings. So, we have to understand that he was talking to believers who are already saved. That they must continue to work out or grow in their own salvation, or relationship with God. Now, if you wish to contend that he's saying that they aren't really saved until they work something out, please by all means point to the scriptures that demonstrate Paul's teaching on this matter.

Here again you assume being “saved” is done in an instant suddenly, yet salvation is a process as the scripture in Phillipians indicates. While Romans says “everyone that calls upon the Lord will be saved” yet Jesus Himself said again:

”Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (New Testament | Matthew 7:21)

So obviously something is left out in Romans, or perhaps since Paul was talking to the Saints or members of the Church he was explaining the importance of relying on the Lord.

Paul also said this:

“And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.”(New Testament | Romans 13:11-14)

I think that Paul is talking to the Saints or members of the Church here too, does sound as if they are not “saved” all at once or else why is their salvation nearer than when we believed” I mean if mere belief is enough for salvation what is all the rest of this all about? Growing salvation? How do you grow it if one is already saved I mean there is not gift greater than the gift of salvation right? How does one put on the Lord Jesus Christ? Obey the covenant of baptism.

The difference is that Christ changes us from the inside out. We are loved into obedience verses commanded into obedience, if that makes sense. God draws us by his love. I'm not saying we don't "do" his commands. I'm saying that isn't what saves us, and God draws us into this place by his love.

How else can Christ change us, the change comes by the power of the Holy Ghost, because of this change we obey the commandments. Thus this salvation is conditioned on our response to this change in us. If we grieve the spirit through disobedience then the covenant is broken then it calls for the following:

“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.” (New Testament | James 4:7-

Pesky old James seems to think it is in our power to draw unto God. He encourages us to cleanse our hands, how do we do this? Repentance that is the key.

It's similar to exercise. If you exercise to stay fit, that's good, right? Well, if you exercise for fun, simply because you like playing basketball for example, then you stay fit at the same time. The person who only exercises to stay fit, may be more likely to stop because it really isn't their passion. They just do it to stay fit. However, the person who loves to play ball will do it until they can't play anymore, because it's their passion.

This is analogous to our relationship with God. If we only follow his commands because someone told us that's what are "supposed to do, to achieve this or that" then it just becomes work. And we do it, but we aren't passionate about it. But, if we are drawn by his love and grace for us, and understand all he's done for us, we want to learn and grow more. We want to follow him in every way possible. We are passionate about following his commands, not because someone has told us to do this or that. But, because we have a strong connection to him through relationship that we feel what he feels. We want what he wants. And as a result we do what he wants.

I'm hoping you see the difference.

Why do you assume that the LDS reasons for obedience is because “someone” told us to do it? Or that we fear punishment! How ridiculous and insulting to assume that! When we are commanded to be obedient it is Christ that gives us His commandments. His command is because He loves us and wants us to be happy. When we are baptized into the Church it is not because the Missionaries convince us they are right. We must gain a personal testimony of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. We make a connection with God and Christ. When we are baptized we make a covenant to take upon us the name of Christ (we become His sons and daughters) we promise to always remember Him meaning His sacrifice for us. And that we are willing to keep His commandments. If we do He promises His spirit to always be with us. This spirit helps us to feel His love and we then make His will our will. As we are faithful to this covenant we continue to be perfected until we overcome the world and no more have a desire for sin.

Faith alone saves us. But, as James points out it is a particular type of faith. The type of faith that produces results.

This I can agree with, the type of faith that leads us to keep the commandments with all our heart, might, mind and strength. Not a reluctant discipleship or a lukewarm conversion, but a burning desire to follow the Son of God at all costs. This type of faith causes the Holy Ghost to sanctify us and to burn sin from our souls so that the thought of sinning is repugnant to us. It is the type of conversion that causes us to love God and our neighbor with all our hearts and to continue along the path that leads to eternal life.

[danielwoods]

The qualifIer of obeying the Lord's commandment to be baptized goes only to those who believe; they must not only believe --according to the plain meaning of the Lord's own words -- but submit to baptism as well if they want to be saved. It goes without saying that those who don't believe aren't going to be baptized because baptism is only for the believers. Make sense? Like I say, your template is so firmly affixed in your mind that not even the plain, unambiguous words of the Lord will sway you.

As I asked, "Why isn't it mentioned every single time through out the NT when salvation is talked about?"

[danielwoods]

daniel,

In what was do you feel that agency gives meaning to our relationship with God? You say that "not everyone chooses God" but then you say "Not even our faith is "of ourselves" it too is a gift of God". The only times I have seen you affirm man's agency is to say that man can choose to reject God.

I think you have presented also a very qualified idea of not rejecting God and instead passively allowing Him to work in us by way of the faith that He gave us as a gift in the first place. But I don't see how that gives us any meaningful sense of agency. Any time I might have used my agency to do some good thing, it was really because of God. But any time I might have used my agency to do some bad thing, it was really because of me.

Agency defines our relationship with God, because we choose him, and he choose us. It really is the purpose of him creating us with agency, to share his freedom-based love with others.

The second part of your quandary is similar to Paul's description of what is happening, if I understand you correctly.

Romans 7:¹⁵ For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

¹⁶ If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

¹⁷ Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

¹⁸ For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

¹⁹ For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

²⁰ Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

²¹ I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

²² For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

²³ But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

²⁴ O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

²⁵ I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[teddyaware]

As I asked, "Why isn't it mentioned every single time through out the NT when salvation is talked about?"

It is. You don't see it because you don't want to see it. You can't afford to acknowledge that baptism was an essential ordinance in New Testament Church because it doesn't fit in with your preconceived notions.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Romans 6)

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. (Luke 3)

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (Acts8)

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. (Acts8)

There are many more verses that show baptism was an important and essential ordinance in the New Testament Church. If you'd like me to do so, I'll post another list.

Edited May 24, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

It seems as if the problem here is one of definitions and interpretations. God cannot save us in our sins. If we repent then He can save us from our sins. Follow me, what exactly does that mean? Jesus is the only sinless man who ever lived so He could literally say this with no reservation. If one follows Jesus what must one do? Jesus was baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness. Baptism was unto repentance, John required his followers to bring forth fruit meet for repentance. After His baptism He was tempted of the Devil, yet He endured those temptations and lived by every word that came from His Father.

The greek version is very interesting because it proves my point that I have been trying to make this entire thread. “No one who abides in Him… who lives and remains in communion with Him deliberately, knowingly, and habitually commits sin! I agree 100 % Yes it is a continuing action. True that does not mean we do not all sin, we do but if we repent we will get back on the path to eternal life! That is what I am saying. But that means that our agency is involved, if we sin we can repent (meaning change our actions) become better each day until we become perfect In Christ. This does not mean we are doing it “on our own” or apart from the atonement of Christ. It is the atonement that makes our perfecting our lives possible.

But it does not mean salvation in our willful sinning as the above greek quote from John declares. As for the scripture in Titus, let us look at a little more of the passage:

The washing of regeneration is Baptism and the renewing of the Holy Ghost is done through worthy partaking of the sacrament to renew our baptismal covenant. Here again it speaks of maintaining good works. Not that the good works in and of themselves save us, but it is an expression of our faith. Again the “works of faith” that are required of one who is a follower of Christ.

Notice in the Titus passage that baptism isn't mentioned. Rather you added that in your explanation of the passage. Washing of regeneration is done by the Holy Spirit, not water.

Here again you assume being “saved” is done in an instant suddenly, yet salvation is a process as the scripture in Phillipians indicates. While Romans says “everyone that calls upon the Lord will be saved” yet Jesus Himself said again:

So obviously something is left out in Romans, or perhaps since Paul was talking to the Saints or members of the Church he was explaining the importance of relying on the Lord.

Let's think about this a moment. Your argument is that being "saved" isn't done in an instant. That it is a long process. I have countered this idea with some passages from Paul's letters. I could give examples from the book of Acts, where every time it's mentioned or it happens it does so in an instant. Even for the Gentile "sinners"!

Now you've countered, not with examples of people coming to Christ and the statement is made they aren't saved, rather you've countered with a quote from Jesus, ”Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (New Testament | Matthew 7:21)

Which is true, but not really applicable. Will there be people who think they are saved, but aren't really? Of course. Do the people who are saved do the will of God? Indeed they do, at least that is their hearts desire.

Now, to make your case, I would think you'd need at least one scripture that demonstrates your view. That a person can convert, but still isn't saved.

Paul also said this:

I think that Paul is talking to the Saints or members of the Church here too, does sound as if they are not “saved” all at once or else why is their salvation nearer than when we believed” I mean if mere belief is enough for salvation what is all the rest of this all about? Growing salvation? How do you grow it if one is already saved I mean there is not gift greater than the gift of salvation right? How does one put on the Lord Jesus Christ? Obey the covenant of baptism.

So, in the same letter to the Romans, He says you are saved. And your salvation is nearer now than ever. If I had time, I might be inclined to look up the words and see if there are any differences. As it stands, I can see that he's not talking about salvation as in, "saved" but in respect to the end. Paul is referring to his previous statement in Chapter 8:^{18 "}For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

¹⁹ For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God."

Which means plainly that his use of "salvation" here indicates the manifestation of the sons of God.

And since we are in that chapter, remember 8:1"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

And if there's no condemnation guess what that means? We are saved, the moment we are in Christ.

How else can Christ change us, the change comes by the power of the Holy Ghost, because of this change we obey the commandments. Thus this salvation is conditioned on our response to this change in us. If we grieve the spirit through disobedience then the covenant is broken then it calls for the following:

Pesky old James seems to think it is in our power to draw unto God. He encourages us to cleanse our hands, how do we do this? Repentance that is the key.

I don't disagree with you that repentance is a key, but repentance is simply a change in attitude. What saves us is God, not our response to this change in us. It seems quite backwards to think that the change inside us must occur first before we are saved. Since it's Christ who already paid the full price for our sin. The wages have been paid. He said it is finished. Done. All we have to do is respond to his love to be saved.

Why do you assume that the LDS reasons for obedience is because “someone” told us to do it? Or that we fear punishment! How ridiculous and insulting to assume that! When we are commanded to be obedient it is Christ that gives us His commandments. His command is because He loves us and wants us to be happy. When we are baptized into the Church it is not because the Missionaries convince us they are right. We must gain a personal testimony of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. We make a connection with God and Christ. When we are baptized we make a covenant to take upon us the name of Christ (we become His sons and daughters) we promise to always remember Him meaning His sacrifice for us. And that we are willing to keep His commandments. If we do He promises His spirit to always be with us. This spirit helps us to feel His love and we then make His will our will. As we are faithful to this covenant we continue to be perfected until we overcome the world and no more have a desire for sin.

If it doesn't apply to you great. I didn't mention any LDS or faith. I was simply making a point about how being motivated from the outside equals legalism, and it simply doesn't change the hearts of men the way God's love does from the inside out. Obeying commandments means one is relying on the arm of the flesh to do something. What was the greatest Commandment? Love God, and the second? Love one another. Interesting isn't it? Love is the very center and the very foundation of Christ's teachings. And Paul said, "If I have not love, I am nothing."

This I can agree with, the type of faith that leads us to keep the commandments with all our heart, might, mind and strength. Not a reluctant discipleship or a lukewarm conversion, but a burning desire to follow the Son of God at all costs. This type of faith causes the Holy Ghost to sanctify us and to burn sin from our souls so that the thought of sinning is repugnant to us. It is the type of conversion that causes us to love God and our neighbor with all our hearts and to continue along the path that leads to eternal life.

John stated, "¹³ These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)

If you are a believer, you already have eternal life.

Edited May 24, 2013 by danielwoods

[danielwoods]

It is. You don't see it because you don't want to see it. You can't afford to acknowledge that baptism was an essential ordinance in New Testament Church because it doesn't fit in with your preconceived notions.

Afford? What exactly do I have to lose by agreeing with you that getting wet is an essential aspect of our being saved?

It really doesn't matter to me either way. My only goal is to follow the truth.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2)

I will concede that this passage does include baptism "for the remission of sins..."

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Romans 6)

The wording, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" indicates that baptism is a symbolic action, not a necessary action that saves us. This verse doesn't support your position.

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. (Luke 3)

The example Jesus set was to be baptized. It doesn't indicate that it's necessary for salvation, but I agree it is an important symbolic act we do as a public declaration of our devotion.

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (Acts8)

"They were baptized..." Yes, that's what it records. I agree. Does that meant that it was taught as a requirement for salvation, or a way to symbolically declare ones beliefs? It certainly doesn't say that it was necessary for their salvation.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. (Acts8)

There are many more verses that show baptism was an important and essential ordinance in the New Testament Church. If you'd like me to do so, I'll post another list.

I agree it's important, but only one verse you posted could be seen to say that it's essential. All the others, even this last one, doesn't say that.

[Lightbearer]

Notice in the Titus passage that baptism isn't mentioned. Rather you added that in your explanation of the passage. Washing of regeneration is done by the Holy Spirit, not water.

Is there any mention in the NT of a person being saved without baptism?

As a matter of fact Peter does say we are saved by baptism:

“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” (New Testament | 1 Peter 3:21)

In fact when Peter was asked what to do when the people were pricked in their hearts he said this to them:

“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.” (New Testament | Acts 2:37-41)

Over three thousand were baptized, if baptism was not an essential ordinance then why did Peter do it? The following scripture show that baptism was an ordinance and that the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is also essential:

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.” (New Testament | Acts 8:12-17)

The following experience of Philip and the eunuch also indicates that baptism is essential:

“And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.” (New Testament | Acts 8:34-39)

Even Paul after seeing Christ and being called to preach had to be baptized:

“And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.” (New Testament | Acts 9:17-18)

In fact when the Gospel went to the Gentiles they were also to be baptized:

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (New Testament | Acts 10:44-48)

So this looks like a pattern here. Baptism seems very important, in fact it was so important Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. So how you could say that it is not important for salvation according to the NT I cannot imagine. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance and baptism for remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is all over the NT and it is the first principles and ordinances of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Let's think about this a moment. Your argument is that being "saved" isn't done in an instant. That it is a long process. I have countered this idea with some passages from Paul's letters. I could give examples from the book of Acts, where every time it's mentioned or it happens it does so in an instant. Even for the Gentile "sinners"!

Now you've countered, not with examples of people coming to Christ and the statement is made they aren't saved, rather you've countered with a quote from Jesus, ”Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (New Testament | Matthew 7:21)

Which is true, but not really applicable. Will there be people who think they are saved, but aren't really? Of course. Do the people who are saved do the will of God? Indeed they do, at least that is their hearts desire.

Now, to make your case, I would think you'd need at least one scripture that demonstrates your view. That a person can convert, but still isn't saved.

I am not saying conversion cannot happen in an instant, but one cannot work out one’s salvation in a moment. When one is converted and baptized and receives the gift of the Holy Ghost one is saved conditionally. On conditions of repentance and enduring to the end. What about Simon the sorcerer? Even after he was converted and baptized Peter said he was in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity. Was Judas Iscariot saved?

So, in the same letter to the Romans, He says you are saved. And your salvation is nearer now than ever. If I had time, I might be inclined to look up the words and see if there are any differences. As it stands, I can see that he's not talking about salvation as in, "saved" but in respect to the end. Paul is referring to his previous statement in Chapter 8:^{18 "}For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

¹⁹ For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God."

Which means plainly that his use of "salvation" here indicates the manifestation of the sons of God.

And since we are in that chapter, remember 8:1"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

And if there's no condemnation guess what that means? We are saved, the moment we are in Christ.

Conditionally saved yes, but if one does not endure to end in righteousness one looses that salvation.

I don't disagree with you that repentance is a key, but repentance is simply a change in attitude. What saves us is God, not our response to this change in us. It seems quite backwards to think that the change inside us must occur first before we are saved. Since it's Christ who already paid the full price for our sin. The wages have been paid. He said it is finished. Done. All we have to do is respond to his love to be saved.

The difference between us is our concept of what salvation is, the very definition of being saved is being changed from our natural man to the man of Christ and that salvation is conditioned on how we react to this gift. Again no LDS believes that Christ did not fully pay for our sins. But the requirements to accept that atonement is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and a broken heart and a contrite spirit or repentance from sin and making a covenant with Him at baptism and then we must endure temptation and keep the commandments until the end of our lives.

If it doesn't apply to you great. I didn't mention any LDS or faith. I was simply making a point about how being motivated from the outside equals legalism, and it simply doesn't change the hearts of men the way God's love does from the inside out. Obeying commandments means one is relying on the arm of the flesh to do something. What was the greatest Commandment? Love God, and the second? Love one another. Interesting isn't it? Love is the very center and the very foundation of Christ's teachings. And Paul said, "If I have not love, I am nothing."

Again these commandments are essential, if the love of God is not in us then there is no salvation possible. Obeying commandments with our faith in Christ is not relying on the flesh the Book of Mormon explains it thus:

“And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.” (Book of Mormon | Ether 12:27)

We can overcome our weaknesses through Christ, then we are able to be strong enough to resist the temptations of the devil.

John stated, "¹³ These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)

If you are a believer, you already have eternal life.

John also said the following about the importance of keeping the commandments:

“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” (New Testament | 1 John 5:2-5)

The love of God is manifest in our keeping the commandments. If we do not to that extent the love of God is not abiding with us and we do not have living faith.

Sorry, for repeating some scriptures that you already answered teddyware about, but it applies to some of your comments to me. It seems like our discussions here are totally fruitless, no matter what scripture I quote you seem to dismiss it and argue over the meaning of a word or just repeat your position or try to say I am trying to advocate “legalism” or atone for my own sins. We seem to have irreconcilable differences in the way we understand the grace of Christ and how our faith accesses that grace. We may just have to agree to disagree.

[teddyaware]

Is there any mention in the NT of a person being saved without baptism?

As a matter of fact Peter does say we are saved by baptism:

In fact when Peter was asked what to do when the people were pricked in their hearts he said this to them:

Over three thousand were baptized, if baptism was not an essential ordinance then why did Peter do it? The following scripture show that baptism was an ordinance and that the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is also essential:

The following experience of Philip and the eunuch also indicates that baptism is essential:

Even Paul after seeing Christ and being called to preach had to be baptized:

In fact when the Gospel went to the Gentiles they were also to be baptized:

So this looks like a pattern here. Baptism seems very important, in fact it was so important Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. So how you could say that it is not important for salvation according to the NT I cannot imagine. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance and baptism for remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is all over the NT and it is the first principles and ordinances of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am not saying conversion cannot happen in an instant, but one cannot work out one’s salvation in a moment. When one is converted and baptized and receives the gift of the Holy Ghost one is saved conditionally. On conditions of repentance and enduring to the end. What about Simon the sorcerer? Even after he was converted and baptized Peter said he was in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity. Was Judas Iscariot saved?

Conditionally saved yes, but if one does not endure to end in righteousness one looses that salvation.

The difference between us is our concept of what salvation is, the very definition of being saved is being changed from our natural man to the man of Christ and that salvation is conditioned on how we react to this gift. Again no LDS believes that Christ did not fully pay for our sins. But the requirements to accept that atonement is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and a broken heart and a contrite spirit or repentance from sin and making a covenant with Him at baptism and then we must endure temptation and keep the commandments until the end of our lives.

Again these commandments are essential, if the love of God is not in us then there is no salvation possible. Obeying commandments with our faith in Christ is not relying on the flesh the Book of Mormon explains it thus:

We can overcome our weaknesses through Christ, then we are able to be strong enough to resist the temptations of the devil.

John also said the following about the importance of keeping the commandments:

The love of God is manifest in our keeping the commandments. If we do not to that extent the love of God is not abiding with us and we do not have living faith.

Sorry, for repeating some scriptures that you already answered teddyware about, but it applies to some of your comments to me. It seems like our discussions here are totally fruitless, no matter what scripture I quote you seem to dismiss it and argue over the meaning of a word or just repeat your position or try to say I am trying to advocate “legalism” or atone for my own sins. We seem to have irreconcilable differences in the way we understand the grace of Christ and how our faith accesses that grace. We may just have to agree to disagree.

Excellent summation!

I believe a lot of the confusion and contention on this issue might be alayed by observing some of the examples of those extraordinary men of surpassing faith, who's conversion stories are recorded in holy writ -- even those who had the such great faith that they were able to leap the giant chasm that separates fallen man from a state of sanctification in Christ in one great leap. One of those individuals is Paul; another is Alma the Younger (in the Book of Mormon).

Alma is a prophet who's dramatic conversion story begins with him being one of the grossest of sinners, who then instantaneously obtains a fullness of justification and sactification in Christ, after calling on His name for salvation and relief from spiritual agony (it is important here to understand this transition appears to have happened in a mere instant). And so we read that this wicked man, after being visited by an angel as he was going about in a perverse effort to destroy the Church of God, was struck dumb and helpless and had the following life-changing experience:

22 And he (Alma's father) caused that the priests should assemble themselves together; and they began to fast, and to pray to the Lord their God that he would open the mouth of Alma, that he might speak, and also that his limbs might receive their strength—that the eyes of the people might be opened to see and know of the goodness and glory of God.

23 And it came to pass after they had fasted and prayed for the space of two days and two nights, the limbs of Alma received their strength, and he stood up and began to speak unto them, bidding them to be of good comfort:

24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. (Mosiah 27)

Then, from Alma's own testimony to his son Helaman, we receive more details of Alma's conversion experience:

16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.

17 And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my painsno more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.

22Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.

23 But behold, my limbs did receive their strength again, and I stood upon my feet, and did manifest unto the people that I had been born of God.

24 Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto epentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

(Alma 26)

So from the above we can see that in an instant Alma transitioned from being in a state of abject damnation of soul to a state in which he was so alive spiritually that he was to be enabled to have a joyous vision of God sitting upon his thrown. A carefull reading of these texts seems to indicate Alma's heart was totally changed in the instant that he called upon God for rescue and relief, and he labored diligently ever thereafter without ceasing with one purpose in mind -- to bring others to know his joy as a redeemed and sanctified son of God.

So the Book of Mormon does teach us that it is indeed possible to obtain celestial salvation in an instant, if the seeker of salvation is possessed of a mighty and surpassing faith. There is no doubt in my mind that if Alma had died an hour after his conversion experience, he would have already obtained eternal life, and this without a lifetime of proving his devotion to the Lord by works of righteousness. As King Harry said just before the miraculous victory of his English Army at the Battle of Agincourt, "All things are ready if our minds be so!"

So in the end could it be that salvation is a holy state of mind, an attitude of righteous positivity and unshakeable confidence that one has laid hold on righteousness and salvation because that man is spiritually reborn of God and Christ? Surely, in the end it is who and what we are that counts.

That being said, a truly righteous man who is born of God would of necessity be righteous in deed as well as in thought and word, for God himself is righteous in thought, word and in deed; and it is into this very divine nature and image that our converted man of mighty faith has been reborn. So those remarkable individuals, who've leaped the aforementioned chasm of separation between God and fallen man all at once, would by virtue of their changed natures keep the commandments of God and always diligently do his will at all times and in all places.

But know this, any man who believes he's received this mighty change of heart by the power of Christ's atonement, but who is not totally diligent in doing the will of God, and who easily continues on in committing sins of commission and omission is only decieveing himself.

Bottom line? The Latter-day Saints do believe it is possible to lay hold on this mighty change of heart all at once, for some idividuals of great faith have accomplished the same. But for most of us, ours is a lifelong process of growing in grace, knowledge and power before we have the enough faith to fully bridge the chasm of separation between God and fallen man. Even so, the only thing preventing any man from speedlily obtaining this mighty change of heart is his own lack of faith. In Christ we have the full freedom of opportunity to grow in Him as fast as we desire. If we want to change all at once we can, the only thing holding us back is our own lack of mighty faith.

Edited May 27, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

Is there any mention in the NT of a person being saved without baptism?

I think the Thief on the cross next to Jesus is an example of one, where he couldn't have been baptized, yet Jesus said, "today you will be with me..."

Almost every passage in the NT that talks about salvation, does so without reference to baptism (in water).

As a matter of fact Peter does say we are saved by baptism:

Right, the baptism of the inner man. "Not not the putting away of the filth of the flesh..." as in getting wet!

In fact when Peter was asked what to do when the people were pricked in their hearts he said this to them:

Over three thousand were baptized, if baptism was not an essential ordinance then why did Peter do it? The following scripture show that baptism was an ordinance and that the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is also essential:

The following experience of Philip and the eunuch also indicates that baptism is essential:

Like I said, to make the case that it is essential to salvation, one needs a statement that states this. So far these statements indicate that it is important, and it declares to everyone else what already happened on the inside.

Even Paul after seeing Christ and being called to preach had to be baptized:

In fact when the Gospel went to the Gentiles they were also to be baptized:

So this looks like a pattern here. Baptism seems very important, in fact it was so important Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. So how you could say that it is not important for salvation according to the NT I cannot imagine. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance and baptism for remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is all over the NT and it is the first principles and ordinances of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I haven't said it's not important. What I have said is that it doesn't save us. It's is a symbolic act that declares to everyone what has already happened to our hearts. It is commanded, but so are many other things that don't save us as well.

I am not saying conversion cannot happen in an instant, but one cannot work out one’s salvation in a moment. When one is converted and baptized and receives the gift of the Holy Ghost one is saved conditionally. On conditions of repentance and enduring to the end. What about Simon the sorcerer? Even after he was converted and baptized Peter said he was in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity. Was Judas Iscariot saved?

Was Simon saved? Yes. Doesn't matter how many issues people have, they are saved even still. And God is the source, who else would they go to be healed?

Was Judas Saved? I think so, but only God knows.

Conditionally saved yes, but if one does not endure to end in righteousness one looses that salvation.

Not sure you'd mentioned the loss of one's salvation when I point out a scripture that states plainly that there is no now condemnation to those who are in Christ. It's sort of like saying to your children, "you are my children now, but if you are bad I'm throwing you out!"

The difference between us is our concept of what salvation is, the very definition of being saved is being changed from our natural man to the man of Christ and that salvation is conditioned on how we react to this gift. Again no LDS believes that Christ did not fully pay for our sins. But the requirements to accept that atonement is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and a broken heart and a contrite spirit or repentance from sin and making a covenant with Him at baptism and then we must endure temptation and keep the commandments until the end of our lives.

What salvation is, you say is the difference between us. Salvation to you is (quoting you below):

1) faith in the Lord Jesus Christ

2) a broken heart and a contrite spirit or repentance from sin

3) making a covenant with Him at baptism

4) endure temptation

5) keep the commandments until the end of our lives.

To me, salvation is to be reconciled to God through the grace of the lord Jesus Christ. The moment we believe and turn our hearts toward him, it happens. In one moment.

So, you are correct. Salvation is defined differently.

Again these commandments are essential, if the love of God is not in us then there is no salvation possible. Obeying commandments with our faith in Christ is not relying on the flesh the Book of Mormon explains it thus:

We can overcome our weaknesses through Christ, then we are able to be strong enough to resist the temptations of the devil.

Here is another difference between the teaching of the NT and the BoM.

You quoted, “And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.” (Book of Mormon | Ether 12:27)

1 Cor. 12:^{9 "}And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

¹⁰ Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

God's economy is backwards of the world's. Notice that he said, "when I am weak, then am I strong." This is the opposite of what the world states. And what you stated. "We can overcome our weaknesses through Christ, then we are able to be strong enough to resist the temptations of the devil."

Or even the BoM, "for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.”

The NT teaches that when we are weak, then we are strong. It's not our strength that God needs, it's our heart. We are strong, when we realize we need him all the time. We are strong when we realize we are weak, and it's not by our strength or will power that his work is done. Rather, it's through direct connection to him.

John also said the following about the importance of keeping the commandments:

I quoted John saying that you already have eternal life, and you seem to ignore it by saying, "John also said..."

The love of God is manifest in our keeping the commandments. If we do not to that extent the love of God is not abiding with us and we do not have living faith.

Sorry, for repeating some scriptures that you already answered teddyware about, but it applies to some of your comments to me. It seems like our discussions here are totally fruitless, no matter what scripture I quote you seem to dismiss it and argue over the meaning of a word or just repeat your position or try to say I am trying to advocate “legalism” or atone for my own sins. We seem to have irreconcilable differences in the way we understand the grace of Christ and how our faith accesses that grace. We may just have to agree to disagree.

The meanings of words are important. I do have a different interpretation on the NT, that is true, because I don't have other books that I believe are the word of God.

I don't think our discussion is fruitless. I've learned quite a bit. I noticed no one disagreed with my analysis of the "keys to the kingdom" passage.

[danielwoods]

Excellent summation!

I believe a lot of the confusion and contention on this issue might be alayed by observing some of the examples of those extraordinary men of surpassing faith, who's conversion stories are recorded in holy writ -- even those who had the such great faith that they were able to leap the giant chasm that separates fallen man from a state of sanctification in Christ in one great leap. One of those individuals is Paul; another is Alma the Younger (in the Book of Mormon).

Alma is a prophet who's dramatic conversion story begins with him being one of the grossest of sinners, who then instantaneously obtains a fullness of justification and sactification in Christ, after calling on His name for salvation and relief from spiritual agony (it is important here to understand this transition appears to have happened in a mere instant). And so we read that this wicked man, after being visited by an angel as he was going about in a perverse effort to destroy the Church of God, was struck dumb and helpless and had the following life-changing experience:

22 And he (Alma's father) caused that the priests should assemble themselves together; and they began to fast, and to pray to the Lord their God that he would open the mouth of Alma, that he might speak, and also that his limbs might receive their strength—that the eyes of the people might be opened to see and know of the goodness and glory of God.

23 And it came to pass after they had fasted and prayed for the space of two days and two nights, the limbs of Alma received their strength, and he stood up and began to speak unto them, bidding them to be of good comfort:

24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. (Mosiah 27)

Then, from Alma's own testimony to his son Helaman, we receive more details of Alma's conversion experience:

16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.

17 And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my painsno more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.

22Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.

23 But behold, my limbs did receive their strength again, and I stood upon my feet, and did manifest unto the people that I had been born of God.

24 Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto epentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

(Alma 26)

So from the above we can see that in an instant Alma transitioned from being in a state of abject damnation of soul to a state in which he was so alive spiritually that he was to be enabled to have a joyous vision of God sitting upon his thrown. A carefull reading of these texts seems to indicate Alma's heart was totally changed in the instant that he called upon God for rescue and relief, and he labored diligently ever thereafter without ceasing with one purpose in mind -- to bring others to know his joy as a redeemed and sanctified son of God.

So the Book of Mormon does teach us that it is indeed possible to obtain celestial salvation in an instant, if the seeker of salvation is possessed of a mighty and surpassing faith. There is no doubt in my mind that if Alma had died an hour after his conversion experience, he would have already obtained eternal life, and this without a lifetime of proving his devotion to the Lord by works of righteousness. As King Harry said just before the miraculous victory of his English Army at the Battle of Agincourt, "All things are ready if our minds be so!"

So in the end could it be that salvation is a holy state of mind, an attitude of righteous positivity and unshakeable confidence that one has laid hold on righteousness and salvation because that man is spiritually reborn of God and Christ? Surely, in the end it is who and what we are that counts.

That being said, a truly righteous man who is born of God would of necessity be righteous in deed as well as in thought and word, for God himself is righteous in thought, word and in deed; and it is into this very divine nature and image that our converted man of mighty faith has been reborn. So those remarkable individuals, who've leaped the aforementioned chasm of separation between God and fallen man all at once, would by virtue of their changed natures keep the commandments of God and always diligently do his will at all times and in all places.

But know this, any man who believes he's received this mighty change of heart by the power of Christ's atonement, but who is not totally diligent in doing the will of God, and who easily continues on in committing sins of commission and omission is only decieveing himself.

Bottom line? The Latter-day Saints do believe it is possible to lay hold on this mighty change of heart all at once, for some idividuals of great faith have accomplished the same. But for most of us, ours is a lifelong process of growing in grace, knowledge and power before we have the enough faith to fully bridge the chasm of separation between God and fallen man. Even so, the only thing preventing any man from speedlily obtaining this mighty change of heart is his own lack of faith. In Christ we have the full freedom of opportunity to grow in Him as fast as we desire. If we want to change all at once we can, the only thing holding us back is our own lack of mighty faith.

The difference between what you described as the LDS view, and the EV view as I understand it is that the chasm of separation is filled by Christ, and him alone. He comes over to us, we don't reach over to him. We are just along for the ride!

[teddyaware]

The difference between what you described as the LDS view, and the EV view as I understand it is that the chasm of separation is filled by Christ, and him alone. He comes over to us, we don't reach over to him. We are just along for the ride!

Perfectly stated! The Latter-day Saints believe God has enough faith in his children to allow them the opportunity to experience the joy, exhileration and satisfaction that come by learning to become like Him through the power of the Spirit, in a great quest that leads to ultimate perfection. You believe God wants to do everthing for His children, thereby depriving them of the opportunities for growth that come through overcoming great spiritual trials by faith, and triumphing against stong spiritual adversity through reliance on the gifts and powers of God.

For the Latter-day Saints, receiving salvation through Christ is only the beginning of a great process of growth that leads to overcoming the world by faith. You believe the initial salvation experience is everything, and all one has to do after that is sit back and enjoy the ride without and need or expectation of spiritual improvement.

Edited May 28, 2013 by teddyaware

[Tacenda]

Perfectly stated! The Latter-day Saints believe God has enough faith in his children to allow them the opportunity to experience the joy, exhileration and satisfaction that come by learning to become like Him through the power of the Spirit, in a great quest that leads to ultimate perfection. You believe God wants to do everthing for His children, thereby depriving them of the opportunities for growth that come through overcoming great spiritual trials by faith, and triumphing against stong spiritual adversity through reliance on the gifts and powers of God.

For the Latter-day Saints, receiving salvation through Christ is only the beginning of a great process of growth that leads to overcoming the world by faith. You believe the initial salvation experience is everything, and all one has to do after that is sit back and enjoy the ride without and need or expectation of spiritual improvement.

I think our way (LDS) is much easier because we're just doing busy work, a lot of busy work. But to be transformed into a vessal that eats, moves, breaths our Saviour is going to be much different. Compare it to a job, you go to work, and work very hard, but you come home and leave it there. A regenerative person is continually working to follow Him. Out of love, not like a work horse with an apple in front that can't ever seem to reach, but someone that is truly converted has let JC take over him and under the will of Him only, worldly things mean nothing. So in my opinion very few will make it until their born again. This will be very hard to do and be able to give up so many vices. No wonder so many give up. So I see where the love relationship comes in and the need to love Him more than myself. I don't know that I should feel all that secure about the hereafter. Edited May 28, 2013 by Tacenda

[JDave]

I think our way (LDS) is much easier because we're just doing busy work, a lot of busy work.

There are people who do that, but it is NOT the LDS way.

But to be transformed into a vessal that eats, moves, breaths our Saviour is going to be much different. Compare it to a job, you go to work, and work very hard, but you come home and leave it there. A regenerative person is continually working to follow Him.

Every LDS congregation I have been in, across multiple states and countries, has emphasized that the LDS religion is NOT a Sunday only religion. It is a way of life. It is life, entailing a complete change to become a new creature.

So in my opinion very few will make it until their born again. This will be very hard to do and be able to give up so many vices. No wonder so many give up. So I see where the love relationship comes in and the need to love Him more than myself. I don't know that I should feel all that secure about the hereafter.

If you are pointed in the right direction then your salvation is secure.

[danielwoods]

Perfectly stated! The Latter-day Saints believe God has enough faith in his children to allow them the opportunity to experience the joy, exhileration and satisfaction that come by learning to become like Him through the power of the Spirit, in a great quest that leads to ultimate perfection. You believe God wants to do everthing for His children, thereby depriving them of the opportunities for growth that come through overcoming great spiritual trials by faith, and triumphing against stong spiritual adversity through reliance on the gifts and powers of God.

For the Latter-day Saints, receiving salvation through Christ is only the beginning of a great process of growth that leads to overcoming the world by faith. You believe the initial salvation experience is everything, and all one has to do after that is sit back and enjoy the ride without and need or expectation of spiritual improvement.

Do I believe what you described? No.

The crux of our difference is how salvation is viewed. You see it as life long growing process. I see salvation specifically as one event, where we become children of God, where we are now "in Christ", where we are reconciled to God, "born again", and even a "new creation". However, that doesn't in any way indicate that we don't grow, or that God want to deprive us of learning. No.

Similar to our physical children, they are in the family from the day they are born (or adopted), however they still grow and learn in that environment. Simply because they are already heirs and "in" doesn't mean there is no growth or learning. This process of growing in Christ, is what we call sanctification, not salvation. The difference is one is the point where we became saved, "believe on the Lord and you will be saved..." and the other is where we grow or become more like Christ everyday.