Brad Wilcox'S View On Grace

[JDave]

The difference between what you described as the LDS view, and the EV view as I understand it is that the chasm of separation is filled by Christ, and him alone. He comes over to us, we don't reach over to him. We are just along for the ride!

Saying that "He comes over to us, we don't reach over to him" makes it sound very much like we are dependent upon the caprice of God to decide whether to come over to us or not. Because if God does come over to everybody, and then takes each and every one along for the ride, how is it that some people don't make it to the end of that ride/journey? If God comes over to everybody, and grants everyone the same measure of faith as a gift, then that gift should grant everyone salvation. We don't even have to reach over to Him, after all, God reached over to us and thus we are all saved. What am I missing here?

I think the LDS view is that the chasm is completely filled by Christ, but after He reaches out to us He invites us to reach back. He invites us to walk with Him on the path that leads to salvation and sanctification. Where those milestones are on the path doesn't change that we must walk the path. You can place salvation really early on the path, and sanctification being the rest of the path, but we are still invited to WALK the path -- not just go along for the ride. We don't just acknowledge that Christ filled the chasm and then suddently some big bus comes by and loads us up.

[Calm]

I think the LDS view is that the chasm is completely filled by Christ, but after He reaches out to us He invites us to reach back. He invites us to walk with Him on the path that leads to salvation and sanctification. Where those milestones are on the path doesn't change that we must walk the path. You can place salvation really early on the path, and sanctification being the rest of the path, but we are still invited to WALK the path -- not just go along for the ride. We don't just acknowledge that Christ filled the chasm and then suddently some big bus comes by and loads us up.

Matt 7:7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

What is knocking if not reaching out?

[danielwoods]

Saying that "He comes over to us, we don't reach over to him" makes it sound very much like we are dependent upon the caprice of God to decide whether to come over to us or not. Because if God does come over to everybody, and then takes each and every one along for the ride, how is it that some people don't make it to the end of that ride/journey? If God comes over to everybody, and grants everyone the same measure of faith as a gift, then that gift should grant everyone salvation. We don't even have to reach over to Him, after all, God reached over to us and thus we are all saved. What am I missing here?

My point is that the very basis of the Gospel is that the chasm between man and God is too much for us, we can't ever reach him, even if we tried. Does this mean that we don't seek him or reach for him? No.

So, why doesn't God grant everyone salvation? Because everyone doesn't want salvation.

I think the LDS view is that the chasm is completely filled by Christ, but after He reaches out to us He invites us to reach back. He invites us to walk with Him on the path that leads to salvation and sanctification. Where those milestones are on the path doesn't change that we must walk the path. You can place salvation really early on the path, and sanctification being the rest of the path, but we are still invited to WALK the path -- not just go along for the ride. We don't just acknowledge that Christ filled the chasm and then suddently some big bus comes by and loads us up.

Your view appears to be different than teddyaware:

"But for most of us, ours is a lifelong process of growing in grace, knowledge and power before we have the enough faith to fully bridge the chasm of separation between God and fallen man."

Either the chasm is filled by "enough faith" or "by Christ" in the LDS view. Which might it be?

For the EV view, once the chasm is closed, it's closed. There is no... "you must do this in order to receive this or that..." His name will be called, "Emanuel, God with man." And that is how it is now. God is with man. Lives inside us now. Transforms us from the inside out.

[JDave]

But isn't the chasm already closed for everyone? Didn't Christ already complete the Atonement? If it is already done, and there is not "do this to receive that" then all should be saved.

[teddyaware]

Do I believe what you described? No.

The crux of our difference is how salvation is viewed. You see it as life long growing process. I see salvation specifically as one event, where we become children of God, where we are now "in Christ", where we are reconciled to God, "born again", and even a "new creation". However, that doesn't in any way indicate that we don't grow, or that God want to deprive us of learning. No.

Similar to our physical children, they are in the family from the day they are born (or adopted), however they still grow and learn in that environment. Simply because they are already heirs and "in" doesn't mean there is no growth or learning. This process of growing in Christ, is what we call sanctification, not salvation. The difference is one is the point where we became saved, "believe on the Lord and you will be saved..." and the other is where we grow or become more like Christ everyday.

David: According to your view, what, if any, benefit, advantage or reward does one who's saved but strives mightily in faith to grow spiritually and become fully sanctified in the Lord have over one who's saved but does not strive in any way to obtain spiritual growth and sanctification?

Edited May 29, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

I think our way (LDS) is much easier because we're just doing busy work, a lot of busy work. But to be transformed into a vessal that eats, moves, breaths our Saviour is going to be much different. Compare it to a job, you go to work, and work very hard, but you come home and leave it there. A regenerative person is continually working to follow Him. Out of love, not like a work horse with an apple in front that can't ever seem to reach, but someone that is truly converted has let JC take over him and under the will of Him only, worldly things mean nothing. So in my opinion very few will make it until their born again. This will be very hard to do and be able to give up so many vices. No wonder so many give up. So I see where the love relationship comes in and the need to love Him more than myself. I don't know that I should feel all that secure about the hereafter.

I think you might be projecting your own experiences with the Church onto others. You call the acts of service to the Lord and man we perform in the Church "busy work," but any work that is performed by means of the gifts and powers of God -- no matter how simple, mean and humble those acts might be -- are works of the Spirit, and the works of the Spirit inspire, sanctify and edify those who do them because the power and wisdom of the Lord is present in the work.

What you're referring to when you speak of "busy work" are dead works, or works devoid of the presence of the Spirit. These dead works are of the flesh and not of the Spirit and are the kinds of "outward only" displays of counterfiet righteousness that the enemies of the Saviour (who's greatest desire was to crucify the God they claimed to worship and obey) performed before men. The antedote to dead works (i.e. "busy work') is prescribed by Paul:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans)

I would tread carefully before assuming the acts of service to the Lord and man perfromed by most active Latter-day Saints are not works inspired and empowered by the Spirit. When a Latter-day Saint is filled with the Spirit, their view of the world is miraculously transformed, and many of those things in which they may have previously presumed there was no life nor light are suddenly viewed as being filled with the light and life of the Spirit. Miracles are everywhere to be found when one is filled with the Spirit. It is diifficult to discern things accurately when one is wavering in faith and testimony.

Edited May 29, 2013 by teddyaware

[Tacenda]

I think you might be projecting your own experiences in the Church onto others. You call the acts of service to the Lord and man we perform in the Church "busy work," but any work that is performed by means of the gifts and powers of God -- no matter how simple, mean and humble those acts might be -- are works of the Spirit, and the works of the Spirit inspire, sanctify and edify those who do them because the power and wisdom of the Lord is present in the work.

What you're referring to when you speak of "busy work" are dead works, or works devoid of the presence of the Spirit. These dead works are of the flesh and not of the Spirit and are the kinds of "outward only" displays of counterfiet righteousness that the enemies of the Saviour (who's greatest desire was to crucify the God they claimed to worship and obey) performed before men. The antedote to dead works (i.e. "busy work') is prescribed by Paul:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans)

I would tread carefully before assuming the acts of service to the Lord and man, perfromed by most active Latter-day Saints, are not works inspired and empowered by the Spirit. When a Latter-day Saint is filled with the Spirit, their view of the world is miraculously transformed, and many of those things in which they may have previously presumed there was no life nor light are suddenly viewed as being filled with the light and life of the Spirit. Miracles are everywhere to be found when one is filled with the Spirit.

I am sorry for making it sound like that. Maybe I have a chip on my shoulder. I know that LDS are some of the most decent people around and go by the spirit, and listen for answers and promptings. I feel that if certain callings in my life hadn't been there I wouldn't have had countless service opportunities I wouldn't have taken on my own, or would I have on my own? I don't know because it's all been provided, those opportunities. Also, since my church doubt, I'm fighting disbelief in my Saviour, maybe that's why I'm fighting so hard for the relationship I never had. I'm terribly sorry, I should just speak for myself. I know that LDS are out there that have found it. But there are sure alot that when they quit belief in the church they also quit their Saviour. As an LDS I've always felt deep down that I lacked that relationship with the Lord, but tried to make it up with doing my best in whatever I was asked to do in church. And I'm sorry for using "busy work" to describe it, and didn't mean to have it sound so bad. ETA: It may be that I'm brainwashed, after listening to anti EV's for the past several years, but of course not all EV's are like that. Some things have crept back in of my being taught that relationship. It's minor, or major depending on how you look at it but do remember being told in church, prayer is like a telephone to your father in heaven. How would our earthly parents feel if we never called? The church does teach relationship, but my mind has been beaten to a pulp with the message that it hasn't. Today it dawned on me how I yearn for a good relationship with my children that I feel is lacking, well it's the same way with the Saviour/God. Edited May 29, 2013 by Tacenda

[danielwoods]

But isn't the chasm already closed for everyone? Didn't Christ already complete the Atonement? If it is already done, and there is not "do this to receive that" then all should be saved.

I thought I answered this when I said, "Does this mean that we don't seek him or reach for him? No.

So, why doesn't God grant everyone salvation? Because everyone doesn't want salvation."

Those who want to be saved do reach for him and are saved.

[danielwoods]

David: According to your view, what, if any, benefit, advantage or reward does one who's saved but strives mightily in faith to grow spiritually and become fully sanctified in the Lord have over one who's saved but does not strive in any way to obtain spiritual growth and sanctification?

You ask about rewards? Only God knows and determines the rewards.

We do have clues. Like the last will be first, the least of these will be the greatest. In essence, our system of determining rewards will be turned on its head.

[danielwoods]

Today it dawned on me how I yearn for a good relationship with my children that I feel is lacking, well it's the same way with the Saviour/God.

Couldn't have said it better myself. What continues to amaze me everyday is the individuality that God has given each of us. Why did he do that? But, for no other purpose that we would want to interact with him, our creator.

[JDave]

I thought I answered this when I said, "Does this mean that we don't seek him or reach for him? No.

So, why doesn't God grant everyone salvation? Because everyone doesn't want salvation."

Those who want to be saved do reach for him and are saved.

That seems like a bit of a paradox. You say once the chasm is closed it is closed and salvation is secure. And Christ has already completed the Atonement. And yet you say the chasm is not necessarily closed, because some don't want salvation. What is lacking to close that chasm?

[teddyaware]

You ask about rewards? Only God knows and determines the rewards.

We do have clues. Like the last will be first, the least of these will be the greatest. In essence, our system of determining rewards will be turned on its head.

I think it's likely that with the above answer you're being a wee bit cagey. Is it not so? Am I being presumtuous, or do I discern aright that you don't dare admit it's possible that a saved man, who devotes himself to serving the Lord with full purpose of heart, will have greater blessings in the eternal world than will a saved man who just "goes along for the ride" and unappreciatively does nothing at all to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord, because such an admission on your part would undermine your case?

So do you believe it's at least theoretically possible that the saved man, who diligently applies himself to growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord, will receive greater spiritual blessings in heaven than will that saved man who applies himself not at all to growing in grace and knowledge of the Lord?

Edited May 29, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

That seems like a bit of a paradox. You say once the chasm is closed it is closed and salvation is secure. And Christ has already completed the Atonement. And yet you say the chasm is not necessarily closed, because some don't want salvation. What is lacking to close that chasm?

When I say the chasm is closed, I'm referring to the gap between man and God created by sin. However, just because the chasm is closed, doesn't mean that all are saved. Salvation still requires belief on our part to enter into that relationship connection.

Many people don't want that connection or relationship with God.

[danielwoods]

I think it's likely that with the above answer you're being a wee bit cagey. Is it not so? Am I being presumtuous, or do I discern aright that you don't dare admit it's possible that a saved man, who devotes himself to serving the Lord with full purpose of heart, will have greater blessings in the eternal world than will a saved man who just "goes along for the ride" and unappreciatively does nothing at all to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord, because such an admission on your part would undermine your case?

So do you believe it's at least theoretically possible that the saved man, who diligently applies himself to growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord, will receive greater spiritual blessings in heaven than will that saved man who applies himself not at all to growing in grace and knowledge of the Lord?

I think it's rather obvious that one who seeks to be more devoted will receive greater rewards. However, I think it's presumptuous to think that we can know who those people are.

We can only look on the outside, God sees the whole person. We don't know what people are struggling with or not. As Jesus pointed out, the older widow gave more than anyone else, because she gave all she had. While many others gave more, but they gave out of their wealth.

In essence, the message is that the focus on rewards is the wrong thing to focus on.

[teddyaware]

I think it's rather obvious that one who seeks to be more devoted will receive greater rewards. However, I think it's presumptuous to think that we can know who those people are.

We can only look on the outside, God sees the whole person. We don't know what people are struggling with or not. As Jesus pointed out, the older widow gave more than anyone else, because she gave all she had. While many others gave more, but they gave out of their wealth.

In essence, the message is that the focus on rewards is the wrong thing to focus on.

I appreciate your reply and mostly agree with the above. A question: According to your belief, what is Paul saying about his approach to the gospel in the following three verses?

"12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil 3)

With all due respect, please try to not refer back to the previous verses, as I already know the context of the above verses and understand what the previous verses say and mean. Rather, if you are willing to answer my question, just inform me, according to your own best understanding, what Paul is trying to say in these three verses.

[teddyaware]

I am sorry for making it sound like that. Maybe I have a chip on my shoulder. I know that LDS are some of the most decent people around and go by the spirit, and listen for answers and promptings. I feel that if certain callings in my life hadn't been there I wouldn't have had countless service opportunities I wouldn't have taken on my own, or would I have on my own? I don't know because it's all been provided, those opportunities. Also, since my church doubt, I'm fighting disbelief in my Saviour, maybe that's why I'm fighting so hard for the relationship I never had. I'm terribly sorry, I should just speak for myself. I know that LDS are out there that have found it. But there are sure alot that when they quit belief in the church they also quit their Saviour. As an LDS I've always felt deep down that I lacked that relationship with the Lord, but tried to make it up with doing my best in whatever I was asked to do in church. And I'm sorry for using "busy work" to describe it, and didn't mean to have it sound so bad. ETA: It may be that I'm brainwashed, after listening to anti EV's for the past several years, but of course not all EV's are like that. Some things have crept back in of my being taught that relationship. It's minor, or major depending on how you look at it but do remember being told in church, prayer is like a telephone to your father in heaven. How would our earthly parents feel if we never called? The church does teach relationship, but my mind has been beaten to a pulp with the message that it hasn't. Today it dawned on me how I yearn for a good relationship with my children that I feel is lacking, well it's the same way with the Saviour/God.

Tacenda: You are a sweetheart; and though it may seem from my previous response I'm totally hostile to your "busy work" comment, I am not. I have even heard General Authorities complain that the Church members are often too busy to experience the joy, inner peace, confidence in salvation, and love that should play a most significant role in their life in the gospel. All the best, Ted

[danielwoods]

I appreciate your reply and mostly agree with the above. A question: According to your belief, what is Paul saying about his approach to the gospel in the following three verses?

"12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil 3)

With all due respect, please try to not refer back to the previous verses, as I already know the context of the above verses and understand what the previous verses say and mean. Rather, if you are willing to answer my question, just inform me, according to your own best understanding, what Paul is trying to say in these three verses.

It's a curious request you've made.

The statement is made, "Not as though I had already attained [it]..." the first question then is, "Attained what exactly?" What is Paul referring to in the previous verses? And why is that you wish to not reference those things. Seems to me that is the key to the passage, especially since he's referencing it.

So in an attempt to answer your question without referencing the previous statement. What is Paul trying to say in these three verses?

Seems to me that he says what he means. He is seeking to do what God wants him to and be like Christ as much as he can.

[Tacenda]

Tacenda: You are a sweetheart; and though it may seem from my previous response I'm totally hostile to your "busy work" comment, I am not. I have even heard General Authorities complain that the Church members are often too busy to experience the joy, inner peace, confidence in salvation, and love that should play a most significant role in their life in the gospel. All the best, Ted

This board is like a big family, thank you!

[Anakin7]

It's a curious request you've made.

The statement is made, "Not as though I had already attained [it]..." the first question then is, "Attained what exactly?" What is Paul referring to in the previous verses? And why is that you wish to not reference those things. Seems to me that is the key to the passage, especially since he's referencing it.

So in an attempt to answer your question without referencing the previous statement. What is Paul trying to say in these three verses?

Seems to me that he says what he means. He is seeking to do what God wants him to and be like Christ as much as he can.

Yes to be like our LORD And Savior Jesus Christ is he striving for, and how is that done ?, by accepting/accessing/activating His True Grace [charis] of which one of the meanings is unmerited favor by way of True Faith [pistis] = which the fab 5 definitional meanings are faithfulness,fidelity,loyalty,obedience,trust and putting and keeping on Jesus Christs Rightiousness by walking in the light as HE is in the light so as his atoning Blood Sacrifice cleanses His and our sins.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited May 30, 2013 by Anakin7

[teddyaware]

It's a curious request you've made.

The statement is made, "Not as though I had already attained [it]..." the first question then is, "Attained what exactly?" What is Paul referring to in the previous verses? And why is that you wish to not reference those things. Seems to me that is the key to the passage, especially since he's referencing it.

So in an attempt to answer your question without referencing the previous statement. What is Paul trying to say in these three verses?

Seems to me that he says what he means. He is seeking to do what God wants him to and be like Christ as much as he can.

Of course! And because the Latter-day Saints are taught to follow diligently in the footsteps of Paul, in obedience to this admonition of his, they are condemned. The thing critics of the Latter-day Saints don't understand is that, believe it or not, we LDS believe obtaining salvation is a rather simple and easy thing to do. In our religion, we are taught that all one needs to do to be saved is to genuinely believe, by the power of the Spirit, that Jesus is the Christ and that His gospel is true; and even if that man is not valiant in that testimony of his, chosing instead to sit inactive on the sidelines, being content to be a mere passive believer only -- that man will be an heir of salvation and will live in glory with the Lord Jesus for all eternity. But we are taught that there are even greater rewards awaithing the faithful who diligently "follow after, if that (they) may apprehend that for which also (they are) apprehended of Christ Jesus."

Apparently, on this point, as best as I can tell, the only real difference between what the Latter-day Saints believe and what you believe is that we LDS put more emphasis on sactification (i.e. growing in the grace, power and knowledge of the Lord), while you place more emphsis on the initial salvation experience; ours is primarily a difference in where we place emphasis. We believe that after the initial salvation experience, we are to "press on toward the mark" and "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life..."

Edited May 30, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

Of course! And because the Latter-day Saints are taught to follow diligently in the footsteps of Paul, in obedience to this admonition of his, they are condemned. The thing critics of the Latter-day Saints don't understand is that, believe it or not, we LDS believe obtaining salvation is a rather simple and easy thing to do. In our religion, we are taught that all one needs to do to be saved is to genuinely believe, by the power of the Spirit, that Jesus is the Christ and that His gospel is true; and even if that man is not valiant in that testimony of his, chosing instead to sit inactive on the sidelines, being content to be a mere passive believer only -- that man will be an heir of salvation and will live in glory with the Lord Jesus for all eternity. But we are taught that there are even greater rewards awaithing the faithful who diligently "follow after, if that (they) may apprehend that for which also (they are) apprehended of Christ Jesus."

Apparently, on this point, as best as I can tell, the only real difference between what the Latter-day Saints believe and what you believe is that we LDS put more emphasis on sactification (i.e. growing in the grace, power and knowledge of the Lord), while you place more emphsis on the initial salvation experience; ours is primarily a difference in where we place emphasis. We believe that after the initial salvation experience, we are to "press on toward the mark" and "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life..."

Depends. It seems that on one hand you say that salvation is a life long process, where it takes great faith to acquire it.

Where you said:

"The Latter-day Saints do believe it is possible to lay hold on this mighty change of heart all at once, for some idividuals of great faith have accomplished the same. But for most of us, ours is a lifelong process of growing in grace, knowledge and power before we have the enough faith to fully bridge the chasm of separation between God and fallen man. Even so, the only thing preventing any man from speedlily obtaining this mighty change of heart is his own lack of faith."

On the other hand here you're stating that it is rather simple and easy.

The problem with pointing to the scripture in Philippians is that the context isn't about salvation.

The real difference is how salvation is defined. John states we have eternal life, now. We know we are saved, now. JS states that we must endure to the end to be saved. Which is it?

[Anakin7]

And then "Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. ³² For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him." (Matt. 21)

Thanks for the link. I agree with this quote, "There is no sense of earning the relationship by keeping the commandments."

True one does not "Earn" the covenant relationship by keeping the commandments but one does "Earn" the right to stay in the covenant relationship by keeping the commandments [walking in the light].

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Anakin7]

Depends. It seems that on one hand you say that salvation is a life long process, where it takes great faith to acquire it.

Where you said:

"The Latter-day Saints do believe it is possible to lay hold on this mighty change of heart all at once, for some idividuals of great faith have accomplished the same. But for most of us, ours is a lifelong process of growing in grace, knowledge and power before we have the enough faith to fully bridge the chasm of separation between God and fallen man. Even so, the only thing preventing any man from speedlily obtaining this mighty change of heart is his own lack of faith."

On the other hand here you're stating that it is rather simple and easy.

The problem with pointing to the scripture in Philippians is that the context isn't about salvation.

The real difference is how salvation is defined. John states we have eternal life, now. We know we are saved, now. JS states that we must endure to the end to be saved. Which is it?

Yes they needed to believe [continuously action ] to be able to know they had eternal life in there heart and mind. Mark 13:13.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI kNIGHT

Edited May 30, 2013 by Anakin7

[teddyaware]

Depends. It seems that on one hand you say that salvation is a life long process, where it takes great faith to acquire it.

Where you said:

"The Latter-day Saints do believe it is possible to lay hold on this mighty change of heart all at once, for some idividuals of great faith have accomplished the same. But for most of us, ours is a lifelong process of growing in grace, knowledge and power before we have the enough faith to fully bridge the chasm of separation between God and fallen man. Even so, the only thing preventing any man from speedlily obtaining this mighty change of heart is his own lack of faith."

On the other hand here you're stating that it is rather simple and easy.

The problem with pointing to the scripture in Philippians is that the context isn't about salvation.

The real difference is how salvation is defined. John states we have eternal life, now. We know we are saved, now. JS states that we must endure to the end to be saved. Which is it?

You are correct. In the LDS religion, the word saved has two meanings: At times it is used interchangeably with word exaltation (i.e. the reward of the believers who are fully valiant in the testimony of Jesus); at other times salvation refers to the salvative relationship with God and Christ that will lead to glory in the eternal but not the fulness of heavenly reward reserved only for those who are truly valiant in the testimony of Jesus (i.e. those who have diligently followed the path to complete sanctification). This is why in our religion the fulness of heavenly reward is more often than not referred to as "exaltation" rather than salvation. Most experienced Latter-day Saints can tell by the context in which the word "salvation" is used whether the writer or speaker is referring to exaltation or to glorification without fullness of heavenly reward.

Edited May 30, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

You are correct. In the LDS religion, the word saved has two meanings: At times it is used interchangeably with word exaltation (i.e. the reward of the believers who are fully valiant in the testimony of Jesus); at other times salvation refers to the salvative relationship with God and Christ that will lead to glory in the eternal but not the fulness of heavenly reward reserved only for those who are truly valiant in the testimony of Jesus (i.e. those who have diligently followed the path to complete sanctification). This is why in our religion the fulness of heavenly reward is more often than not referred to as "exaltation" rather than salvation. Most experienced Latter-day Saints can tell by the context in which the word "salvation" is used whether the writer or speaker is referring to exaltation or to glorification without fullness of heavenly reward.

Thanks this explains a lot.

Juxtaposed to this concept of two different types of salvations referred to by the LDS, the NT uses only one definition to refer to salvation, and uses rewards to refer to rewards.