Brad Wilcox'S View On Grace

[danielwoods]

On the contrary the reason we were given agency is so we could learn to choose good over evil. Without agency, law, responsibility, and consequences existence would be meaningless we could not develop faith (trust In God) and so there would be no relationship except being a puppet or robot programmed by God.

If this was true, then the consequences of the law would be with us into eternity. Rather, what happens is we don't receive the consequences of our actions, we receive forgiveness through the grace and love of Christ.

We are a little different than other creations of God, we are His offspring. Thus we are made in His image and likeness. So we inherit the ability to choose, but the choice is ours. God may entice or persuade us and the Adversary or Satan may tempt us, but the choice and thus the consequences are our own. But because He loves us and wants us to choose Him, He has provided a means of overcoming the effects of the fall and our own wrong choices. He sent His only begotten Son in the flesh, even Jesus Christ to be our example that we must follow. In addition Christ paid the price of our sins if we will repent and follow Him. The choosing to follow the Son of God manifests it self in a covenant relationship, which is what baptism is and why it is an essential ordinance much like a marriage license. (Not a perfect analogy but I think you get the point) Without the ordinance of baptism by the proper priesthood authority then the relationship is not valid.

This is curious to me. Why does our relationship to God need to be valid or legal?

The Book of Mormon elaborates on the importance of this ordinance:

“Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world. And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water! And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water? Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments. Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove. And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them. And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father? And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel. But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me. And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.”

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:4 - 16)

Now I know you do not believe the Book of Mormon, but I quote it here so that you may understand the LDS position. We believe these words to be the words of Christ and we accept them as we do the Bible. We believe some things have been lost from the Bible and or can be interpreted so differently that it is often hard to understand the original teachings. Note here that baptism is a covenant relationship and that it is not just an outward ritual with no inward meaning. While we do rely upon the merits and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ we do believe that we are responsible for our actions and that we must endure in faith to the end or we cannot be saved.

Right, that's what it says. endure to the end. I also notice that he quoted John "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

Think about that for a moment. If Jesus took away all the sin of the world, then how is it that we are judged for being sinful?

As I have been pointing out, we are judged by our connection to him or not. Notice what Jesus stated in Matt. 7:^{22 "}Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

²³ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Notice that Jesus says, "I never knew you" - Which indicates relationship does it not? And those he doesn't know (personally) work iniquity.

It seems like ignoring it, why did James even write what he did if the Saints were getting the idea that keeping the commandments were not required and the Christ “did it all” meaning that they could be saved “in their sins” instead of being saved “from their sins” I believe that is the distinct difference he was trying to make. I think he was talking to those who continued to live after the manner of the world even after they were baptized and supposed to be living as Saints.

I think there are many reasons that James wrote his letter. One certainly could be that there were people who were not being doers of the word, but hearers only. However, not one place in James does it say that our works save us. Rather, he's making a point that the type of faith that saves is the one that produces works.

Actually Adam fell, and was cast out of the garden, he died both spiritually and temporally. The result of sin is DEATH. Meaning spiritual death or being cut off from God’s presence. Adam was not redeemed until after his repentance and making a covenant with God so he could return to His presence. The effect of breaking our covenant is the same as sinning, we are cut off from God’s spirit until we repent and draw near unto Him and renew our covenant we make at baptism.

Yes absolutely that is the requirement, to keep the covenant we make with God, without this there is no relationship, we are no longer sons but are disinherited. It is like the house of Israel, they were chosen as His people, yet when they sinned against the covenant they lost their relationship as God’s people. So also without our following Christ with living faith (as James taught) then we will loose our relationship and status with God. In fact our dear brother Paul indicated this here:

“Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 9:24 - 27)

We must run the race, We must strive to follow Christ and keep the covenant so that we may have the relationship of being a son of God, so we may be the bride prepared for the bridegroom.

So you don't have that relationship now?

Ha Ha! You really cannot see it! What is a reward if not eternal life? For if one has eternal life, the greatest of all the gifts of God what need have we of a reward beyond that? I see the context entirely, we must keep the commandments to be perfect!

This is being perfect in a finite since, because without the resurrection our bodies are still subject to the fall. The flesh is indeed weak, but the spirit must be willing and trying to follow Christ in that strait and narrow path. Otherwise we are following the devil and are his sheep not the sheep of the good shepherd.

I'm only keeping the passage in context. You may believe what you wish. It actually doesn't state, "you must keep the commandments to be perfect."

No Peter did not reject his Lord, he had a moment of weakness and repented and did as His Lord required of Him, because if He had not done so He would not have really loved the Savior. It is a twisted view of following God to say that if we disobey God we can stay in our relationship with Him. What kind of relationship is it. If is compared to a marriage, then straying from that trust or love would be like committing adultery. Perhaps that is why God compares this wicked world to a harlot. The question is how can we be connected to Christ and God and at the same time serve the devil?

A relationship isn't broken by one act of disobedience is it? If it is, then the connect was really weak.

So sinning does not damn us? I am not talking about repented sin, forsaken sin, I am talking about continuing in sin after we have made a covenant relationship with God? Of course sin is bad for us and ruins lives… but is that the only reason sin is bad? How can sin not be a betrayal of our relationship with God? The following brings the question of keeping the commandments being important:

So does this not say keeping the commandments of God is important?

Following God's commandments is important, but our salvation doesn't rest on our own ability to follow commandments, neither does our relationship with God.

The Book of Mormon records the words of Christ on this subject thus:

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfil; For verily I say unto you, one jot nor one tittle hath not passed away from the law, but in me it hath all been fulfilled. And behold, I have given you the law and the commandments of my Father, that ye shall believe in me, and that ye shall repent of your sins, and come unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Behold, ye have the commandments before you, and the law is fulfilled. Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 12:17-20)

Christ is the giver both of the Law of Moses and the Law of the Gospel. Obedience is the first law of heaven and if we do not learn obedience by the things that we suffer as Christ did, then we will not be with God and Christ worlds without end.

What is God is the one who makes that requirement as part of being reconciled to Him. Mercy cannot rob justice, and grace cannot replace personal responsibility and no matter how anyone tries to misinterpret the New Testament that is not it’s message. Grace alone or faith alone will not save us.

I find it interesting that you use the BoM to argue what the message of the NT is. If you wish to argue that the BoM has a "Grace plus works" message, then I'd agree with you, based on what you've posted. The message of the NT is simple.

Acts 15:^{10 "}Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

¹¹ But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

Your argument keeps sounding like a paradox like “Can God make a rock so big He can’t lift it?” You presume that God cannot make any requirements for salvation or it is no longer grace! The restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a system of laws and commadments given by men in the flesh. It is based on revelation, not just ancient, but modern revelation and so we do not just depend on secular learning or scholarly interpretations of the Bible but it is a revelation of Jesus Christ that applies to our day and corrects the false doctrine of the apostasy. Grace vs. Works is an idea argued by Christian churches for over 2000 years. The very reason there are so many different churches all teaching from the Bible is that they cannot agree upon the correct interpretation of the Bible. But note what Paul is actually saying, if we do the works of the flesh (meaning sinning) but walk after the spirit (keeping the commandments of God or not sinning). So he is validating the very point I have been trying to make throughout this thread, we cannot walk by the spirit and continue the sins of the flesh, we must repent and forsake them and avoid future sin! That is not being forgiven by our own merits but it is keeping ourselves clean of the sins of the world. It is following Christ’s perfect example and pressing forward until we are perfect in Christ and are holy and without spot. We need the grace of Christ to do this. As LDS we do this as we have His spirit to always be with us as we strive to keep the covenant we make at baptism and we renew each week as we partake of the sacrament. The following scripture from the Book of Mormon says it all:

“And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ. And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God. And I would that ye should remember also, that this is the name that I said I should give unto you that never should be blotted out, except it be through transgression; therefore, take heed that ye do not transgress, that the name be not blotted out of your hearts. I say unto you, I would that ye should remember to retain the name written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the left hand of God, but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be called, and also, the name by which he shall call you. For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart? And again, doth a man take an *** which belongeth to his neighbor, and keep him? I say unto you, Nay; he will not even suffer that he shall feed among his flocks, but will drive him away, and cast him out. I say unto you, that even so shall it be among you if ye know not the name by which ye are called. Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.” (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 5:7-15)

I believe this passage explains how we as LDS are in a covenant relationship with God and how we can keep and loose our standing.

It's an interesting passage of Mormon Scripture. Thanks. I'm not convinced that it relays the message of the NT. For example, Peter said in Acts, "4:¹² Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

But, Peter didn't say that it was dependent on our obedience to the end. In fact, as I quoted before, he stated that "neither our fathers nor we were able to bear."

So it seems the message of the two books are different.

[volgadon]

This is curious to me. Why does our relationship to God need to be valid or legal?

Why shouldn't it be?

[danielwoods]

Why shouldn't it be?

If Christ paid it all, then his sacrifice already makes it legal in the sense that he has fulfilled all righteousness, and God's justice is satisfied.

[Lightbearer]

If this was true, then the consequences of the law would be with us into eternity. Rather, what happens is we don't receive the consequences of our actions, we receive forgiveness through the grace and love of Christ.

You are arguing as if we LDS do not believe in the grace and love of Christ. That is a LIE. What we do not believe in is that we do not believe we can be saved in our sins. In other words to continue to sin once one has repented and taken upon us the name of Christ. We believe Christ saves us from our sins as we repent and forsake the sin, or in other words as we walk in the light and deny ourselves of all ungodliness. As we follow our Lord and Savior and try to emulate Him and rely upon HIs strength to resist the tempations of the world.

This is curious to me. Why does our relationship to God need to be valid or legal?

Because God is not a god of confusion, he requires that we do things by His authority, no man taketh this honor except He is called of God as was Aaron. We must live by every word of God.

Right, that's what it says. endure to the end. I also notice that he quoted John "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

Think about that for a moment. If Jesus took away all the sin of the world, then how is it that we are judged for being sinful?

If we do not repent then the sin is not taken away from us. God offers us His grace on conditions of repentance and our continued striving to keep the covenant we made at baptism.

As I have been pointing out, we are judged by our connection to him or not. Notice what Jesus stated in Matt. 7:^{22 "}Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

²³ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Notice that Jesus says, "I never knew you" - Which indicates relationship does it not? And those he doesn't know (personally) work iniquity.

Interesting that you do not quote this in context:

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (New Testament | Matthew 7:21 - 27)

So can someone have a relationship with God and Christ and do not what they say (command) we should do? If not then is it a real relationship? Or is it just a delusion and a license to sin?

I think there are many reasons that James wrote his letter. One certainly could be that there were people who were not being doers of the word, but hearers only. However, not one place in James does it say that our works save us. Rather, he's making a point that the type of faith that saves is the one that produces works.

But the type of faith that produces works DOES SAVE US! That is my point and the entire point of all the scriptures including the Book of Mormon, that is the point I am trying to make on this thread.

So you don't have that relationship now?

That is a rather insulting question. I have had a covenant relationship with God and His Christ for over 40 years. So your self righteousness does not make me feel inferior.

I'm only keeping the passage in context. You may believe what you wish. It actually doesn't state, "you must keep the commandments to be perfect."

We will have to agree to disagree on that one. Because Christ's atonement is not given to us to excuse us from keeping His commandments, but rather to forgive us when we do fall short of the glory of God and so we can repent and change our lives for the better.

A relationship isn't broken by one act of disobedience is it? If it is, then the connect was really weak.

I don’t know you may want to ask Father Adam! The one act of partaking of the forbidden fruit was enough for the fall of mankind. God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, nevertheless he that repents and does that commandments of the Lord will be forgiven. No unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God so unless we repent and allow the grace of Christ to perfect us then we cannot enter HIs kingdom.

Following God's commandments is important, but our salvation doesn't rest on our own ability to follow commandments, neither does our relationship with God.

Why is it important if our relationship with God does not depend on it? What think ye of the following scripture?

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”

(New Testament | Luke 6:46 - 49)

So is one who calls upon the Lord who ignores His commandments and sins against God and His brother is He built upon a rock? Or is it more like he that builds on a sandy foundation?

I find it interesting that you use the BoM to argue what the message of the NT is. If you wish to argue that the BoM has a "Grace plus works" message, then I'd agree with you, based on what you've posted. The message of the NT is simple.

Acts 15:^{10 "}Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

¹¹ But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

I use the Book of Mormon because it is scripture and is much plainer than the Bible, however I would argue that the Bible does have the same message, but your interpretation is in error. Again your usual cherry picking out of context of Acts can be better understood if it is taken in context:

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”

(New Testament | Acts 15:5-11)

The message here does not say we do not need to refrain from sin, but that the gentiles did not need to be circumcised or do the performances of the Law of Moses! The LDS do not seek to live the Law of Moses, but the law of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the first principle being faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and repentance (including the abandonment of sin) and baptism (that covenant relationship we have with God) and the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost which helps us flee temptation and resist the flesh but live by the spirit.

It's an interesting passage of Mormon Scripture. Thanks. I'm not convinced that it relays the message of the NT. For example, Peter said in Acts, "4:¹² Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

But, Peter didn't say that it was dependent on our obedience to the end. In fact, as I quoted before, he stated that "neither our fathers nor we were able to bear."

So it seems the message of the two books are different.

No the two books are not so different as your faulty interpretation of the New Testament. Again the Law of Moses is the context Peter was preaching about. In fact Peter gave an interesting teaching here:

“Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.” (New Testament | 2 Peter 1:2-12)

Sounds as if we must add things to our faith, including virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity… which if we have these things then we will have the fruits or good works. But if we lack these things we are blind and forget the we have been cleansed of old sins (implying that the new ones need to be repented of?)

If this does not show the necessity of keeping the commandments of Christ then the following is rather plain and while you have ignored this before I give it again:

“ The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:9-22)

So what is Peter talking about here? Those who forsake the right way? Gone astray? Is it possible to escape sin and have a relationship with Christ and then return like a dog to his own vomit or like a sow in the mire? Do you think that one can be saved without living a righteous life? The Book of Mormon is teaching the same principles as the Bible, that through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon teaches the following:

“For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 25:23)

[Tacenda]

I wish one of the many scriptures that were fixed in the BoM, that Joseph would have fixed, the "after all we can do", and left it out.

[Lightbearer]

I wish one of the many scriptures that were fixed in the BoM, that Joseph would have fixed, the "after all we can do", and left it out.

Who says it needs to be fixed? the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book and a person can get closer to God by abiding by it's precepts than any other book.

[teddyaware]

If Christ paid it all, then his sacrifice already makes it legal in the sense that he has fulfilled all righteousness, and God's justice is satisfied.

I'm back. I'll start by responding the lastest posts and eventually work my way back to where I left off on Saturday.

"15 And thus he (Christ) shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.

16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption." (Alma 34)

Edited May 20, 2013 by teddyaware

[Calm]

Who says it needs to be fixed? the Book of Mormon is the most correct***** of any book and a person can get closer to God by abiding by it's precepts than any other book.

***** https://www.lds.org/ensign/1984/06/the-most-correct-book?lang=eng Edited May 20, 2013 by calmoriah

[volgadon]

If Christ paid it all, then his sacrifice already makes it legal in the sense that he has fulfilled all righteousness, and God's justice is satisfied.

Here is a good section on covenants. http://books.google.com/books?id=e0FrevlVXjUC&pg=PA15&dq=frank+moore+cross+antinomian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ArSZUaDgKqPsyQH2_YDgAg&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=frank%20moore%20cross%20antinomian&f=false

As for the sacrifice, if we look at what Jesus superceded, so to speak, it was entirely within the framework of covenant. Where is the evidence that such was abolished?

[teddyaware]

I wish one of the many scriptures that were fixed in the BoM, that Joseph would have fixed, the "after all we can do", and left it out.

In order to gain grace from God, there's almost always something the children of God are asked to do in order to obtain that grace. I'll show you some examples from the New Testament to demonstrate how the process works.

Example 1)

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. (James 1)

Receiving wisdom from God (for instance, obtaining personal revelation to know the gospel is true) is to receive a spiritual gift by the grace of God. But observe in these verses that the gift of wisdom isn't simply given without any thought, desire or action on the part of the recipient. Before receiving the desired wisdom, the would-be recipient of this saving knowledge must first ask of God. But in this case even more is needed than to just simply mechanically ask of God. For when petitioning the Lord to bestow the needed saving wisdom, the petitioner must ask in faith without wavering. In this instance, asking God for saving wisdom in living, unwavering faith is the "all we can do" part.

Example 2)

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. (James 1)

It should be the fervent desire of every Latter-day Saint to not simply obtain an inheritance in the lowest kingdom of glory by fulfilling only the bear minimum requirements needed to enter that realm. Rather, all valiant followers of the Lord should desire the "crown of life, which crown is emblematic of the greatest of all the heavenly rewards of his grace -- receiving an eternal fullness of the glory of God. It is true the Lord has promised his followers the crown of life, but in this case there are two things the disciple of Christ must do before receiving it. First, the follower must truly love the Lord. Secondly, the follower must successfully endure the temptations the Lord allows to come into each disciple's life. So in this verse loving God and successfully enduring temptation is the "all we can do" part.

Example 3)

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

From the first verse we see before the Lord can fully come into our hearts, and thereafter allow us to be enthroned with him in heaven, we must first open the door to our hearts to his holy influence; he won't and can't do this for us. Next, as the Lord comes into our hearts and "sups" (communes) with us, we are expected to commune with him as well -- the communication process isn't a oneway street. He won't and can't force us to commune with him, even though he very much wants to commune with us. Then, in the next verse, we learn the Lord wants to graciously exalt his children to throne of glory and rulership in heaven. But before being able to do so we must first overcome the world through living faith in Christ.

Also observe that when these verses in Revelation are understood in context, the Lord is admonishing those who are already believers in the Saviour. Even though these people are already members of the Church who believe, yet he counsels them to open the door, sup with him, and overcome the world. If being a believer in Christ already guarantees the receipt of these three spiritual gifts of grace, why does the Lord tell the Laodiceans these gifts will be bestowed only after his disciples follow through with their end of the covenant. So in these verses, chosing to open the door to a "knocking" Christ, chosing to spiritually commune with Him, and proactively overcoming the world of sin, spiritual death and the devil, by means of the gifts and powers of God, are the "all we can do" part.

Peter knew this principle well,

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

(2 Peter 3)

Remember several posts back we moved beyond merely being saved. Rather, after being saved it is the Lord's will we inherit the greater rewards of heavenly glory promised to those who are truly valiant and faithful in the testimony of Jesus. Being only lukewarm in the testimony of Jesus will have consequenses. Only those who overcome will receive the fullness of the rewards of God offers to us by his grace, and this after our part to lay hold on that fullness of reward. He will neither force himself, nor the fulness of his gifts of grace upon no man.

That being said, it must be remembered life in the gospel of Christ is a growing process; the Lord doesn't expect or require us to to become perfect overnight. What he wants to see is consistent growth in grace, knowledge, spiritual power and holy love. This is what Paul taught in his day to those who already believed in Christ...

"12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."(Phil 3)

Only one who could deny the plain meaning of words could deny that Paul is teaching the saints that there remains a great effort of faith to be made after one first comes unto Christ. God wants us to never faint in continually pressing on to obtain the great gift Paul calls "the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (i.e. the fulness of God's rewards to the valiant in the testimony of Jesus).

Edited May 20, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

You are arguing as if we LDS do not believe in the grace and love of Christ. That is a LIE. What we do not believe in is that we do not believe we can be saved in our sins. In other words to continue to sin once one has repented and taken upon us the name of Christ. We believe Christ saves us from our sins as we repent and forsake the sin, or in other words as we walk in the light and deny ourselves of all ungodliness. As we follow our Lord and Savior and try to emulate Him and rely upon HIs strength to resist the tempations of the world.

Whew! I don't know if I can get to all this in one post.

I was responding to what you stated: Lightbearer, on 18 May 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

"On the contrary the reason we were given agency is so we could learn to choose good over evil. Without agency, law, responsibility, and consequences existence would be meaningless we could not develop faith (trust In God) and so there would be no relationship except being a puppet or robot programmed by God."

You stated that there would be no relationship without the consequences and existence would be meaningless. If that's true then are there also consequences in Heaven?

Because God is not a god of confusion, he requires that we do things by His authority, no man taketh this honor except He is called of God as was Aaron. We must live by every word of God.

Show me where in the NT it states that our relationship isn't legal unless the ordinances are done by someone of Authority?

If that can't be done, then either it's not a NT teaching or it's missing. If it's missing then what would be the evidence that it went missing?

If we do not repent then the sin is not taken away from us. God offers us His grace on conditions of repentance and our continued striving to keep the covenant we made at baptism.

"continued striving to keep the covenant" is what I have issue with. Our salvation isn't based on our continued striving. If it were we'd all fail. Now, I agree that we strive to follow Christ more and more, but that is because of his love working in us more and more, not because we are afraid we might lose our salvation.

Interesting that you do not quote this in context:

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (New Testament | Matthew 7:21 - 27)

So can someone have a relationship with God and Christ and do not what they say (command) we should do? If not then is it a real relationship? Or is it just a delusion and a license to sin?

The question is what saves us. I didn't quote the passage out of context, rather I pointed out that right in the middle of the passage, the basis for salvation is seen to be relationship. "I never knew you..." Knowledge, and connection and not works are what save us.

Your question misses the point entirely. Of course those who have a relationship, *want* to do his will. It's a silly question.

But the type of faith that produces works DOES SAVE US! That is my point and the entire point of all the scriptures including the Book of Mormon, that is the point I am trying to make on this thread.

Then why make the point that we must keep the commandments in order to be/stay saved?

That is a rather insulting question. I have had a covenant relationship with God and His Christ for over 40 years. So your self righteousness does not make me feel inferior.

Certainly didn't intend to insult you. I was responding to your statement, "We must run the race, We must strive to follow Christ and keep the covenant so that we may have the relationship of being a son of God, so we may be the bride prepared for the bridegroom."

The statement, "So that we may have the relationship..." "So that we may be the bride..." made it sound like it was something you haven't attained yet.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one. Because Christ's atonement is not given to us to excuse us from keeping His commandments, but rather to forgive us when we do fall short of the glory of God and so we can repent and change our lives for the better.

I don’t know you may want to ask Father Adam! The one act of partaking of the forbidden fruit was enough for the fall of mankind. God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, nevertheless he that repents and does that commandments of the Lord will be forgiven. No unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God so unless we repent and allow the grace of Christ to perfect us then we cannot enter HIs kingdom.

No unclean thing will enter the kingdom, because we (believers) all have the righteousness of Christ already. It's a beautiful thing!

Why is it important if our relationship with God does not depend on it? What think ye of the following scripture?

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”

(New Testament | Luke 6:46 - 49)

So is one who calls upon the Lord who ignores His commandments and sins against God and His brother is He built upon a rock? Or is it more like he that builds on a sandy foundation?

Why are keeping the commands of God important? Because they work. They bring life and riches to our lives. However, keeping the commands did not give us the connection to God or establish the means to our relationship with God. Christ did that alone. We simply responded and let him in.

I use the Book of Mormon because it is scripture and is much plainer than the Bible, however I would argue that the Bible does have the same message, but your interpretation is in error. Again your usual cherry picking out of context of Acts can be better understood if it is taken in context:

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”

(New Testament | Acts 15:5-11)

The message here does not say we do not need to refrain from sin, but that the gentiles did not need to be circumcised or do the performances of the Law of Moses! The LDS do not seek to live the Law of Moses, but the law of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the first principle being faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and repentance (including the abandonment of sin) and baptism (that covenant relationship we have with God) and the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost which helps us flee temptation and resist the flesh but live by the spirit.

The principle is the same. Whether you call it the Law of the Gospel or the Law of moses, if it's a law that relies on the arm of the flesh it will fail. That was Peter's point. The only thing that changes men's hearts is the Spirit working within us. The net result of putting a different yoke on people is same as before. Legalism.

No the two books are not so different as your faulty interpretation of the New Testament. Again the Law of Moses is the context Peter was preaching about. In fact Peter gave an interesting teaching here:

“Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.” (New Testament | 2 Peter 1:2-12)

Sounds as if we must add things to our faith, including virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity… which if we have these things then we will have the fruits or good works. But if we lack these things we are blind and forget the we have been cleansed of old sins (implying that the new ones need to be repented of?)

Only if you remember that he said that "his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness..." already. It's all been given to us. There is no, "I must work for this salvation, I must strive to stay saved." He's given it all to us all ready. Given! Isn't that interesting?

Now, does that mean we don't grow in him? Certainly not. But, what it does mean is that we don't do it by ourselves under our own power. His yoke is easy and his burden is light.

If this does not show the necessity of keeping the commandments of Christ then the following is rather plain and while you have ignored this before I give it again:

“ The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:9-22)

So what is Peter talking about here? Those who forsake the right way? Gone astray? Is it possible to escape sin and have a relationship with Christ and then return like a dog to his own vomit or like a sow in the mire? Do you think that one can be saved without living a righteous life? The Book of Mormon is teaching the same principles as the Bible, that through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This passage doesn't say, "through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ." As you claim. Rather it states plainly, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations..." and again, "they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..."

Through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Isn't it amazing how clear the statement is? Just know him personally, be connected to him via personal relationship. HE knows how to deliver the godly.

Of course it is true that those who forsake that connection, for what ever reason, will then have to answer for their own sin, as they will no longer have the righteousness of Christ.

The Book of Mormon teaches the following:

“For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 25:23)

We could probably have a whole thread on this. You state that this teaches the same as the NT, however it states it differently, "by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

and compared to Ephesians 2:^{8 "}For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

Now, I come to this with an open mind. I don't care one way or the other. But the two statements aren't the same are they? If they were I'd have no problem acknowledging that fact. But, they clearly are not the same.

Now it could be that one is more "correct" than the other. It could be that one was changed. However, I don't think a rational argument can be made that says that these two teachings are exactly the same.

Edited May 20, 2013 by danielwoods

[danielwoods]

I'm back. I'll start by responding the lastest posts and eventually work my way back to where I left off on Saturday.

"15 And thus he (Christ) shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.

16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption." (Mosiah 34)

So, without an explanation I'm left to think that you agree with me that Christ paid it all, and our relationship to him based on faith is legal because of his sacrifice.

[volgadon]

"continued striving to keep the covenant" is what I have issue with. Our salvation isn't based on our continued striving. If it were we'd all fail. Now, I agree that we strive to follow Christ more and more, but that is because of his love working in us more and more, not because we are afraid we might lose our salvation.

Only if we quit striving.

[danielwoods]

Here is a good section on covenants. http://books.google....inomian&f=false

As for the sacrifice, if we look at what Jesus superceded, so to speak, it was entirely within the framework of covenant. Where is the evidence that such was abolished?

Christ said he fulfilled all righteousness, and gave us a new covenant.

[JDave]

Christ said he fulfilled all righteousness, and gave us a new covenant.

Were the people who were born before Christ's time saved through some other covenant?

Also, from what you have been saying I don't see how anyone has any free will (agency) when it comes to doing good things. If we do something bad it is our fault, but if we do something good or if we strive to follow Christ that is always because God made us do it because He was working in us.

[danielwoods]

Were the people who were born before Christ's time saved through some other covenant?

Also, from what you have been saying I don't see how anyone has any free will (agency) when it comes to doing good things. If we do something bad it is our fault, but if we do something good or if we strive to follow Christ that is always because God made us do it because He was working in us.

Just because he is working in us to do good things doesn't mean that our will is not active. He only works through willing participants. As Jesus said, "not mine, but your will be done."

People who had a relationship with God before Christ was born were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[JDave]

Just because he is working in us to do good things doesn't mean that our will is not active. He only works through willing participants. As Jesus said, "not mine, but your will be done."

You stated before that all good things come from God, quoting Phillipians 2:13 - "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Based on my question, I understood you to interpret this verse as saying that God causes our will for good things.

People who had a relationship with God before Christ was born were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Which means that all covenants God made, through all of history, were with respect to that blood and sacrifice. As volgadon asked, where does Christ state that his new covenant is a break (or abolishing) of previous covenant relationships?

[danielwoods]

Hope you don't mind if I respond to a couple points made here.

In order to gain grace from God, there's almost always something the children of God are asked to do in order to obtain that grace. I'll show you some examples from the New Testament to demonstrate how the process works.

Example 1)

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. (James 1)

Receiving wisdom from God (for instance, obtaining personal revelation to know the gospel is true) is to receive a spiritual gift by the grace of God. But observe in these verses that the gift of wisdom isn't simply given without any thought, desire or action on the part of the recipient. Before receiving the desired wisdom, the would-be recipient of this saving knowledge must first ask of God. But in this case even more is needed than to just simply mechanically ask of God. For when petitioning the Lord to bestow the needed saving wisdom, the petitioner must ask in faith without wavering. In this instance, asking God for saving wisdom in living, unwavering faith is the "all we can do" part.

The James passage has nothing to do with receiving a personal revelation to know the gospel is true, or gaining a testimony about the Church.

Notice the context:

James 1:² My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

³ Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

⁴ But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

⁵ If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Notice that the statement in v. 5 "If any of you lack wisdom..." is directly related to the radical teaching of "count it all joy..." Why might that be? Why would James be telling people that if they lack wisdom to ask God? Seems fairly obvious, he's telling people to Count it all joy when they face trials of many kinds! No where in there is there anything about seeking a testimony in something. Rather, his whole point was he was teaching something radically new and telling them if they don't understand it, ask God for wisdom.

Example 2)

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. (James 1)

It should be the fervent desire of every Latter-day Saint to not simply obtain an inheritance in the lowest kingdom of glory by fulfilling only the bear minimum requirements needed to enter that realm. Rather, all valiant followers of the Lord should desire the "crown of life, which crown is emblematic of the greatest of all the heavenly rewards of his grace -- receiving an eternal fullness of the glory of God. It is true the Lord has promised his followers the crown of life, but in this case there are two things the disciple of Christ must do before receiving it. First, the follower must truly love the Lord. Secondly, the follower must successfully endure the temptations the Lord allows to come into each disciple's life. So in this verse loving God and successfully enduring temptation is the "all we can do" part.'

There's nothing in this verse about the crown only going to some who love him, or one or two, but rather [all] them that love him.

Example 3)

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

From the first verse we see before the Lord can fully come into our hearts, and thereafter allow us to be enthroned with him in heaven, we must first open the door to our hearts to his holy influence; he won't and can't do this for us. Next, as the Lord comes into our hearts and "sups" (communes) with us, we are expected to commune with him as well -- the communication process isn't a oneway street. He won't and can't force us to commune with him, even though he very much wants to commune with us. Then, in the next verse, we learn the Lord wants to graciously exalt his children to throne of glory and rulership in heaven. But before being able to do so we must first overcome the world through living faith in Christ.

Also observe that when these verses in Revelation are understood in context, the Lord is admonishing those who are already believers in the Saviour. Even though these people are already members of the Church who believe, yet he counsels them to open the door, sup with him, and overcome the world. If being a believer in Christ already guarantees the receipt of these three spiritual gifts of grace, why does the Lord tell the Laodiceans these gifts will be bestowed only after his disciples follow through with their end of the covenant. So in these verses, chosing to open the door to a "knocking" Christ, chosing to spiritually commune with Him, and proactively overcoming the world of sin, spiritual death and the devil, by means of the gifts and powers of God, are the "all we can do" part.

Exactly. Commune in relationship with God directly. That's how we over come the world. That's how we are saved.

[danielwoods]

You stated before that all good things come from God, quoting Phillipians 2:13 - "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Based on my question, I understood you to interpret this verse as saying that God causes our will for good things.

Right. And this is how God works. He changes us from the inside out. He changes our hearts desires first, which changes our will to match his, then this results in the actions that others can see.

Which means that all covenants God made, through all of history, were with respect to that blood and sacrifice. As volgadon asked, where does Christ state that his new covenant is a break (or abolishing) of previous covenant relationships?

As I answered him. Jesus fulfilled all righteousness within that covenant.

[volgadon]

Christ said he fulfilled all righteousness, and gave us a new covenant.

And where do we see that the covenant did not function whatsoever like a covenant?

[teddyaware]

Hope you don't mind if I respond to a couple points made here.

The James passage has nothing to do with receiving a personal revelation to know the gospel is true, or gaining a testimony about the Church.

Notice the context:

James 1:² My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

³ Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

⁴ But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

⁵ If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Notice that the statement in v. 5 "If any of you lack wisdom..." is directly related to the radical teaching of "count it all joy..." Why might that be? Why would James be telling people that if they lack wisdom to ask God? Seems fairly obvious, he's telling people to Count it all joy when they face trials of many kinds! No where in there is there anything about seeking a testimony in something. Rather, his whole point was he was teaching something radically new and telling them if they don't understand it, ask God for wisdom.

There's nothing in this verse about the crown only going to some who love him, or one or two, but rather [all] them that love him.

Exactly. Commune in relationship with God directly. That's how we over come the world. That's how we are saved.

Daniel,

I find it remarkable that you seem to see only what you want to see. You have a salvative template affixed in your mind, and no matter what verses of scripture you read they are interpreted in the way you need to interpret them, no matter how strained that interpretation might be, in order to get the scriptures to conform with your preconceived template. Why did you not also cite verse 4, the verse immediately antecedent to verse 5? It says:

"4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing."

In verse 4, James is reiterating the Saviour's teaching, "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." The need for the divine wisdom, referred to in verse 5, is to enable the saints to be "perfect and entire," to eventually possess all the fullness of the knowledge and wisdom of God...

"11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Chris

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4)

So James, in the midst of the adversity the Church was then enduring, was encouraging the saints to keep their eyes on the goal of perfection, to strive in faith for the day when they will individually possess faith and knowledge "unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;" or as James puts it, "that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." The wisdom spoken of was to needed to fill in any missing points of godly knowledge on the way to each saint becoming a "perfect man."

...........................

You say, "there's nothing (in verse 12) about the crown only going to some who love him, or one or two, but rather [all] them that love him."

Again Daniel, you see what you want to see and interpret the scriptures the way you need to interpret them so as to get them to conform with your preconceived notions. How could you have possibly missed the following highlighted portions of verse 12? How could you have ignored something so obvious?

"12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

The crown is not given until the saint successfully endures temptation and "is tried (past tense)," meaning after the testing phase is complete. Those who successfully endure the trials of temptation attest to their devotion to the Lord by proving they love him more than the diverse temptations of the world, the flesh and the devil. Only after the love is tried, tested, refined and proven is the crown bestowed. Does not James make this perfectly and unambiguously clear?

Edited May 21, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

And where do we see that the covenant did not function whatsoever like a covenant?

Not sure what you are asking, sorry.

[danielwoods]

Daniel,

I find it remarkable that you seem to see only what you want to see. You have a salvative template affixed in your mind, and no matter what verses of scripture you read they are interpreted in the way you need to interpret them, no matter how strained that interpretation might be, in order to get the scriptures to conform with your preconceived template. Why did you not also cite verse 4, the verse immediately antecedent to verse 5? It says:

"4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing."

In verse 4, James is reiterating the Saviour's teaching, "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." The need for the divine wisdom, referred to in verse 5, is to enable the saints to be "perfect and entire," to eventually possess all the fullness of the knowledge and wisdom of God...

"11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Chris

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4)

So James, in the midst of the adversity the Church was then enduring, was encouraging the saints to keep their eyes on the goal of perfection, to strive in faith for the day when they will individually possess faith and knowledge "unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;" or as James puts it, "that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." The wisdom spoken of was to needed to fill in any missing points of godly knowledge on the way to each saint becoming a "perfect man."

The question is what does the text say? IT doesn't say, "count it all joy... and then if you want to know if the church is true pray for wisdom." Nope. It states, "count it all joy..." then follows that with "if you lack wisdom, ask God." The accusation that I am only seeing what I want to see is projection on your part. I'm not coming to this text with a preconceived idea about what it says. I only want to study it for what James originally intended it to say.

You think that I'm ignoring verse 4 because I didn't mention it. That's ok, if you think that. I understand that christ's love working in us makes us perfect over time. That's a natural consequence of his living inside of us. However, I think we agree somewhat on that point, and didn't see it needed to be mentioned.

...........................

You say, "there's nothing (in verse 12) about the crown only going to some who love him, or one or two, but rather [all] them that love him."

Again Daniel, you see what you want to see and interpret the scriptures the way you need to interpret them so as to get them to conform with your preconceived notions. How could you have possibly missed the following highlighted portions of verse 12? How could you have ignored something so obvious?

"12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

The crown is not given until the saint successfully endures temptation and "is tried (past tense)," meaning after the testing phase is complete. Those who successfully endure the trials of temptation attest to their devotion to the Lord by proving they love him more than the diverse temptations of the world, the flesh and the devil. Only after the love is tried, tested, refined and proven is the crown bestowed. Does not James make this perfectly and unambiguously clear?

Right, which is what happens to all believers. You make a distinction that some believers won't get a crown of life and some will. If the Lord has promised a crown of life to them that love him. Guess what? All those who love him (which is all believers), will get one.

The burden is on you to demonstrate that some won't get one.

[volgadon]

Not sure what you are asking, sorry.

Have you read the Frank Moore Cross bit that I linked to?

[teddyaware]

The question is what does the text say? IT doesn't say, "count it all joy... and then if you want to know if the church is true pray for wisdom." Nope. It states, "count it all joy..." then follows that with "if you lack wisdom, ask God." The accusation that I am only seeing what I want to see is projection on your part. I'm not coming to this text with a preconceived idea about what it says. I only want to study it for what James originally intended it to say.

You think that I'm ignoring verse 4 because I didn't mention it. That's ok, if you think that. I understand that christ's love working in us makes us perfect over time. That's a natural consequence of his living inside of us. However, I think we agree somewhat on that point, and didn't see it needed to be mentioned.

...........................

Right, which is what happens to all believers. You make a distinction that some believers won't get a crown of life and some will. If the Lord has promised a crown of life to them that love him. Guess what? All those who love him (which is all believers), will get one.

The burden is on you to demonstrate that some won't get one.

Daniel,

I used asking the Lord if the Church is true as an example of the many, many questions one could pose to the Lord in a quest for more divine wisdom. In Joseph Smith's case, after reading and being inspired by these verses in James chapter one, he asked the Lord which of all the churches of his day he should join. He was then given wisdom from the the Lord, by revelation, that he did not already possess -- he was told to join none of them.

James was speaking of a lack of wisdom in any area of gospel knowledge that stood in the way of a saint becoming "perfect and entire, wanting nothing." The expression "wanting nothing" means just what it says. Someone who is wanting nothing, by very definition, has everything. Wouldn't you agree?

As for those that love the Lord receiving the crown of life. That is true. The only clarification that needs to be made on this point is that those who successfully endure temptation, in divinely ordained trials of faith, are the ones who truly love the Lord. These verses make it perfectly clear -- it is not enough for one to say he loves the Lord. Rather, only after enduring temptation (i.e. "when he is tried") will he prove he loves the Lord enough to receive the crown of life. James' use of the words "when he is tried" makes it patently clear that the crown isn't bestowed until after the successfully endured trial of faith, which successfully endured trial validates one's professed love of the Lord. To say anything else here is to "wrest" the obvious intended meaning of these verses of scripture.

"... even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. (2 Peter 3)

James' meaning is so clear and unambiguous, I'm beginning to wonder if you're pulling my leg...

Edited May 21, 2013 by teddyaware