Brad Wilcox'S View On Grace

[teddyaware]

No, I took no offense at your questions but wanted to know if you leaned with seeing my view as valid (not that you agree but that you see room for me to hold that view and not be a heretic) or if you felt they were untenable? Please know I enjoy talking back and forth on this board and if you go back you will find that I have no problem communicating in a friendly way with the majority of those who disagree with me.

You have been nothing but respectful in the few posts you and I have communicated over time. I look forward to your response on my views

Have an awesome Sabbath

Hi DB,

I'll answer you at greater length tomorrow; but yes, I tend to agree with your understanding of salvation by grace. I do think, though, that the pivotal point in the whole faith vs works debate is this -- " what exactly is faith and how does faith enable the children of God to obtain salvation through the atonement?" Answer that question and all the pieces of the puzzle of this controversy should fall right into place.

Also, simply and straightforwardly explain the following in a way a child could understand, and the debate is over...

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2)

Edited May 13, 2013 by teddyaware

[Bob Crockett]

I'd like the cite to Elder Jensen. CFR. I dispute it.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[Bob Crockett]

One can be trying inwardly and failing outwardly and still be justified and can be in state of exhalted grace simply on his desires for righteousness

I have never said your view is untenable simply that I disagree with it. Whereas you have in ways accused me as a heretic which If you like I will match you quote for quote showing both views have weight.

Nope, never. Must fully repent. Repentance is a work. It is your duty as a bishop to call upon sinners to repent.

The word is "exalted."

Select your best quote from an apostle or president. I don't think you've provided any. The quotes you've been providing from Elder McConkie ignore what he says in a following paragraph.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[DBMormon]

I'd like the cite to Elder Jensen.

I am simply asking if you 100% would consider any statement form a member of the seventy as binding on the church? would you?

if you wouldn't any quote from him won't matter so you take a stance first.

Also please the 20 references you have ready to show today's leaders share your view that we earn salvation by keeping the commandments or that our good works have merit.

[DBMormon]

Nope, never. Must fully repent. Repentance is a work. It is your duty as a bishop to call upon sinners to repent.

The word is "exalted."

Select your best quote from an apostle or president. I don't think you've provided any. The quotes you've been providing from Elder McConkie ignore what he says in a following paragraph.

Any argument will fail to convince you because you are combine things I separate.

I agree that obedience, repentance, keeping commandments are all required and necessary

I do not believe keeping the commandments merits exaltation, but rather a change of heart does, one that is willing and submitting to Christ.

You are combining them

Also you see obedience to the commandments as the same as Obedience to the gospel, which I clearly separate.

As long as you are unable to at least understand my distinction you will always see What Elder McConkie says next as refuting what he said first.

I gave you this already - straight from LDS.org which should trump any 1965 non binding book quote you use

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=679f2f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

I gave you scriptures which clearly say you have no merit and that we rely wholly and alone on christ's merits - You respond with no answer to that

Elder Holland says in https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=eng

I know that there isno other name given under heaven whereby a man can be saved and that only by relying wholly upon His merits, mercy, and everlasting grace¹⁹ can we gain eternal life

Elder lund clearly says our separating Salvation from Exaltation doesn't work in this talk

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1981/04/salvation-by-grace-or-by-works?lang=eng

Bro Wilcox view is in a recent Church periodical (New Era) someone approves of it enough to allow his heresy (according to you) into the Church magazine"

Elder McConkie says

Salvation is not in works—not even in those revealed of God—but in Christ and his atonement.

I don't care what he says after that he is clear SALVATION is NOT in WORKS, not even those revealed of God - no ifs, ands, or buts

Elder Uchtdorf

Now, brethren, compared to the perfection of God, we mortals are scarcely more than awkward, faltering toddlers. But our loving Heavenly Father wants us to become more like Him, and, dear brethren, that should be our eternal goal too. God understands that we get there not in an instant but by taking one step at a time.

I do not believe in a God who would set up rules and commandments only to wait for us to fail so He could punish us. I believe in a Heavenly Father who is loving and caring and who rejoices in our every effort to stand tall and walk toward Him. Even when we stumble, He urges us not to be discouraged—never to give up or flee our allotted field of service—but to take courage, find our faith, and keep trying.

Our Father in Heaven mentors His children and often sends unseen heavenly help to those who desire to follow the Savior.

- notice the value in the trying even when falling over and over

Brethren, discipleship is a lifelong journey following our Savior. Along our metaphorical path from Bethlehem to Golgotha, we will have many opportunities to abandon our journey. At times it will seem that the path requires more than we had wished for. But as men of the priesthood, we must have the courage to follow our Redeemer, even when our cross seems too heavy to bear.

With every step we take following the Son of God, we may be reminded that we are not perfect yet. But let us be steadfast and constant disciples. Let us not give up. Let us be true to our covenants. Let us never lose sight of our Advocate and Redeemer as we walk toward Him, one imperfect step after another.

imperfect step after imperfect step..ok just keep walking

I have others but it is late... sweet dreams

[volgadon]

Any argument will fail to convince you because you are combine things I separate.

I agree that obedience, repentance, keeping commandments are all required and necessary

I do not believe keeping the commandments merits exaltation, but rather a change of heart does, one that is willing and submitting to Christ.

You are combining them

Also you see obedience to the commandments as the same as Obedience to the gospel, which I clearly separate.

As long as you are unable to at least understand my distinction you will always see What Elder McConkie says next as refuting what he said first.

I gave you this already - straight from LDS.org which should trump any 1965 non binding book quote you use

http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD

I gave you scriptures which clearly say you have no merit and that we rely wholly and alone on christ's merits - You respond with no answer to that

Elder Holland says in https://www.lds.org/...h-sent?lang=eng

Elder lund clearly says our separating Salvation from Exaltation doesn't work in this talk

http://www.lds.org/e...-works?lang=eng

Bro Wilcox view is in a recent Church periodical (New Era) someone approves of it enough to allow his heresy (according to you) into the Church magazine"

Elder McConkie says

I don't care what he says after that he is clear SALVATION is NOT in WORKS, not even those revealed of God - no ifs, ands, or buts

Elder Uchtdorf

- notice the value in the trying even when falling over and over

imperfect step after imperfect step..ok just keep walking

I have others but it is late... sweet dreams

Honestly, I don't see why those things ought to be separated in the first place.

[Bob Crockett]

I want that cite from Elder Jensen you claim above. CFR. I don't care whether you think I'd accept or not. I think you've made a cite and quote that don't exist or else your post was misstated.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[Calm]

In regards to Fair, if you are speaking of legal set up as a non profit - correct but in the spirit of definition as in not making a profit we are the same. In fact in a non profit 501C3 you can still have a paid staff and even pay yourself. So in that sense I am more non profit then them. But yes if you want to use loaded words and be a critic then you are legally correct I am not a 501c3.

Just so you don't confuse people who don't know the details...we have one paid employee, the bookstore manager and she is not involved in the apologetics side at all.

[Bob Crockett]

Harold B Lee, "After All We Can Do," in Stand Ye in Holy Places, chapter 37

"But all of these blessings are ours on one condition, and this is spoken of by Nephi, when he said: For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, [but mark you this condition] after all we can do. (2 Nephi 25:23. Italics added.)"

It is his parenthical, "but mark you this condition," which makes it all the more meaningful.

Harold B. Lee, "The Teachings of Harold B Lee," ch. 2:

"Ultimate salvation comes to those who obey. The ancient prophets of this western continent have clearly set forth in understandable language the obligation of each individual to obtain the highest of these eternal privileges in mortality and in the world to come, for here we find written: "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). In other words, each must do all he can to save himself from sin; then he may lay claim to the blessings of redemption by the Holy One of Israel, that all mankind may be saved by obedience to the law and ordinances of the gospel."

"The everlasting covenant, or the plan of salvation, is like a contract."

"The third great distinctive principle in the plan of salvation was the provision that "all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" (Articles of Faith 1:3)."

Harold B. Lee, id., ch. 7:

"Spiritual certainty that is necessary to salvation must be preceded by a maximum of individual effort. Grace, or the free gift of the Lord's atoning power, must be preceded by personal striving. Repeating again what Nephi said, "By grace we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23)."

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol 1, ch. 10:

"GOD OFFERS COVENANT OF SALVATION. The gospel covenant is the promise of God to grant to man, through man's obedience and acceptance of the ordinances and principles of the gospel, the glory and exaltation of eternal life. It is the Father in Heaven who stipulates the terms of the covenant. Man has no say in the matter or right to alter or annul any provision of the covenant. His duty is to accept on the terms which are presented to him from the Almighty, in full faith and obedience, without complaint or desire because of personal weakness to alter or annul, what the Father offers for man's salvation. "

Joseph Fielding Smith, Way to Perfection, p. 96.

The children of Abraham, if they will keep the covenant as they receive it in the house of the Lord, shall, as Abraham their fatheinue on through all eternity to increase, and there shall be no end to their posterity. In this way the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, are extended to them, and they become partakers to the fullest extent.

Bryson Bachman and Noel Reynolds, Prelude to the Restoration (Sperry Symposiun), p. 3 (approx).

Whereas traditional Christian sacraments are generally considered vehicles of Christ's unilaterally given grace, Latter- day Saints emphasize the bilateral nature of ordinances by focusing on the covenants that attach to them. Most ordinances entail covenants, by which the recipients make promises of obedience as required by conditional promises of blessings offered to them by the Lord. While the concept of covenant—absent in Christianity for many years—returned to prominence in the writings of some Reformation theologians, the full connection between covenants and ordinances would reappear only in the Restoration.

Gospel Ideals: Selections From the Discourses of David O. McKay, "Principles of Salvation,":

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. . . . But he must rise by his own efforts, and he must walk by faith."

"AN ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION. Every principle and ordinance of the gospel of Jesus Christ is significant and important in contributing to the progress, happiness, and eternal life of man, but there is none more essential to the salvation of the human family than the divine and eternally operative principle, repentance. Without it, no one can be saved."

"Ignorance and sin are man's worst enemies. They are barriers to salvation. Only through repentance and obedience to the gospel can these be eradicated."

Spencer W. Kimball, "Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball:"

"On highway signs and from sectarian pulpits, we are told: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9.) ... This above verse, together with other isolated ones taken out of context, are interpreted by many to mean that personal religious activity and works are unnecessary and that all men need do is to believe in the name of Christ. This misconception of those who eliminate or de-emphasize works arises in large measure from a lack of understanding.

One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation. One passage in the Book of Mormon, written perhaps with the same intent as Paul's statement above-to stress and induce appreciation for the gracious gift of salvation offered on condition of obedience-is particularly enlightening: "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23; italics added.) . . . .

Of course we need to understand terms. If by the word salvation is meant the mere salvation or redemption from the grave, the "grace of God" is sufficient. But if the term salvation means returning to the presence of God with eternal progression, eternal increase, and eventual godhood, for this one certainly must have the"grace of God," as it is generally defined, plus personal purity, overcoming of evil, and the good "works" made so important in the exhortations of the Savior and his prophets and apostles."

I think somewhere along the way you've misinterpreted both Bro. Millet and Bro. Wilcox to yield a doctrine similar to that of the Baptists. Sure, you'll find statements that say that the ultimate gift of salvation is God's grace, but that grace depends upon our obedience and repentence. Mormons use some of the same verbiage as the evangelicals, but apply it differently to make it a covenant with God; we do our part; he does his. As the Sperry Symposium pointed out, this doctrine really first surfaced in the teachings of the Restoration.

I know Bro. Wilcox personally. (Well, he knows my brother and I've met him.) He'd be unhappy to see this discussion, I'm sure. Faithful brother, mission president.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[Bob Crockett]

Just so you don't confuse people who don't know the details...we have one paid employee, the bookstore manager and she is not involved in the apologetics side at all.

I wonder what Bro Reel's role is with FAIR.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[DBMormon]

Honestly, I don't see why those things ought to be separated in the first place.

Because it is the only way to understand how on the one hand they are required and necessary and on the other Salvation is not in Works, not even those revealed of God.

Once one allows those two things to be separated then several things happen

1.) One places more ephasis on staying in covenant

2.) One seeks grace recognizing that it is the only way to be able to do good works one can not do on their own

3.) It becomes simple to explain Elder McConkie's Quote, Gerald Lunds Explanation, and for it to mesh with the LDS description of Grace. Which to this point no one here has been able to take those statements and say

"yes Elder McConkie said Salvation is not in Works but that isn't what he meant, he meant XYZ"

We were so stressed over makeing a wide divide between us and evangelicals that we made the divide wider then needed by using 2nd Nephi's 25:23. And that extreme view is untenable. Perfection or doing all we can do can not, absolutely can not be achieved in this life. It is an eternal goal

The problem in going down the wrong road was for too many years we read into 2nd Nephi 25:23 incorrectly. Then to compound the issue the Bible Dictionary played on this incorrect interpretation by saying that Grace comes only after expending one's best efforts.

Which if we are completely honest we never do, and now we are taught Grace is with us before during and after all we do.

Once we allow for leaders to have inorrectly based their view on a bad interpretation on 2nd Nephi 25:23 then the chips fall into place. At least they do for me.

My view is still different then the evangelical view. I declare that works, obedience, and keeping commandments are required, essential, and necessary but I differ from the idea that they have merit or that we earn salvation by keeping the commandments.

Instead I see keeping the commandments and keeping the gospel as different as the law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

I am not bound by statements that for me personally the Holy Ghost does not confirm to me. I am bound to truth as I see it and not as one leader here or one leader there imposes it on me.

I accept the articles of faith, have a testimony of the restoration, and can answer faithfully the temple questions.

I am pressing forward with steadfastness in becoming perfect in Christ. I have his grace assisting me to do works I could not do on my own, and I no longer get discouraged when I fall short. I simply repent, dust myself off and try again.

I also feel like the view I subscribe to is the view found more often in LDS talks today. That even leadership has moved from an expectation of perfect obedience to emphasis on the keep trying. We no longer draw lines in the sand as Miracle of forgiveness did or 7 deadly heresies, or Doctrines of Salvation. The books by our leaders today sway away from that and emphasize more encouragement and calling on us to seek God's grace. They have hit on it and yet we feel compelled to hold to a old stance simply because a leader said it at some point.

Edited May 13, 2013 by DBMormon

[Lightbearer]

In the world of LDS it appears that gifts are earned ("if you do this, then I will give you this gift").

It also appears to me that the idea that we must keep all the commandments is at variance with the whole reason that Christ took the punishment of our sins, because we are't able to keep all the commandments.

Where does Christ ever say that we do not need to keep the commandments to be saved? LDS are not trying to "earn our way" without Christ, that is impossible. But through Christ and His infinite atonement we are enabled to keep His commandments even Paul said so:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (New Testament | 1 Corinthians 10:13)

Does this not say that with God's help we can overcome our sins, rather than save us in our sins?

[Bob Crockett]

Michael Wilcox published an article in the January 1998 Ensign, entitled "The Abrahamic Covenant," where Bro. Wilcox tells us that we must "Do the Works of Abraham."

Quoting from Moses 5:11, Bro. Wilcox tells us that "eternal life" is available "unto all the obedient." He talks about the nature of the covenant. "Every covenant involves two parties." As far as members of the Church are concerned, the blessings of exaltation under the covenant are available "inasmuch as we are willing to enter “into my law. … But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father," again citing scriptures.

Elder Nelson spoke of the Abrahamic Covenant in the April 1995 general conference. "Rewards for obedience to the commandments are almost beyond mortal comprehension." Those "rewards" include "blessings of the priesthood, and eternal life." They are "predicated upon acceptance of the Lord and obedience to his commandments."

So, again, LDS doctrine adopts a "contractual" view of salvation which is unique to Christianity. That is, because God so loved Abraham, He told Abraham that his seed would receive a covenant from God. If they obeyed and repented, they would have eternal life. In a covenant, each party's performance has merit. "Rewards" are "earned," as innumerable LDS authorities have stated.

When one discusses "grace" in this context, it is important not to confuse the various usages of the term, as John Gee points out his FARMS Review of Robert Millet. God's grace helps us get through the day and repent. But that is not the same "grace" as the ultimate grace of exaltation, which only God can give. But, he has bound Himself. If we merit eternal life by working out our salvation with fear and trembling, by earning our way there, God has promised us through the Abrahamic Covenant that we will get it.

Ordinarily, Bro. Reel, you view of salvific grace wouldn't attract much attention. I think there's room in the Church for minor deviations, as you urge people on a path that will get them where God wants them. It is the website asking for money, the commercials for a travel agency which you run on your podcasts, the ministry to stake presidents and bishops, the constant reference to your calling as bishop, seeking out Dehlin for an podcast interview, which he wouldn't have given you had you not emphasized your current calling, and your appearance at a Sunstone symposium (which we have been counseled to avoid) -- again using your calling to get there -- which seem to put an unusual sheen upon your statements. You're not the only one to do such things, by the way. Perhaps it is a concern I have which the vast majority do not share. Certainly your credentials are greater than mine, so I could be wrong.

I am still rather mystified as to why you made up a quote from Elder Jensen that does not appear to exist. Am I misreading your post? It seems confusing; you call him an apostle but he wasn't.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[volgadon]

Because it is the only way to understand how on the one hand they are required and necessary and on the other Salvation is not in Works, not even those revealed of God.

Once one allows those two things to be separated then several things happen

1.) One places more ephasis on staying in covenant

2.) One seeks grace recognizing that it is the only way to be able to do good works one can not do on their own

3.) It becomes simple to explain Elder McConkie's Quote, Gerald Lunds Explanation, and for it to mesh with the LDS description of Grace. Which to this point no one here has been able to take those statements and say

"yes Elder McConkie said Salvation is not in Works but that isn't what he meant, he meant XYZ"

We were so stressed over makeing a wide divide between us and evangelicals that we made the divide wider then needed by using 2nd Nephi's 25:23. And that extreme view is untenable. Perfection or doing all we can do can not, absolutely can not be achieved in this life. It is an eternal goal

The problem in going down the wrong road was for too many years we read into 2nd Nephi 25:23 incorrectly. Then to compound the issue the Bible Dictionary played on this incorrect interpretation by saying that Grace comes only after expending one's best efforts.

Which if we are completely honest we never do, and now we are taught Grace is with us before during and after all we do.

Once we allow for leaders to have inorrectly based their view on a bad interpretation on 2nd Nephi 25:23 then the chips fall into place. At least they do for me.

My view is still different then the evangelical view. I declare that works, obedience, and keeping commandments are required, essential, and necessary but I differ from the idea that they have merit or that we earn salvation by keeping the commandments.

Instead I see keeping the commandments and keeping the gospel as different as the law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

I am not bound by statements that for me personally the Holy Ghost does not confirm to me. I am bound to truth as I see it and not as one leader here or one leader there imposes it on me.

I accept the articles of faith, have a testimony of the restoration, and can answer faithfully the temple questions.

I am pressing forward with steadfastness in becoming perfect in Christ. I have his grace assisting me to do works I could not do on my own, and I no longer get discouraged when I fall short. I simply repent, dust myself off and try again.

I also feel like the view I subscribe to is the view found more often in LDS talks today. That even leadership has moved from an expectation of perfect obedience to emphasis on the keep trying. We no longer draw lines in the sand as Miracle of forgiveness did or 7 deadly heresies, or Doctrines of Salvation. The books by our leaders today sway away from that and emphasize more encouragement and calling on us to seek God's grace. They have hit on it and yet we feel compelled to hold to a old stance simply because a leader said it at some point.

It is not the only way, nor is it even necessary, honestly. For example, your points 1 and 2 are weakened by such artificial separation. Also, as you would have it, God commands us to do things which are meritless, pointless, and futile.

[DBMormon]

It is the website asking for money, the commercials for a travel agency which you run on your podcasts

So all leaders who serve or work in some capacity that involves advertising or asking for donations should call it quits?

the constant reference to your calling as bishop

Again you are overstating the case. CFR fo CONSTANT references outside of when asked?

seeking out Dehlin for an podcast interview

CFR - he sought me. I emailed him some concerns. He asked me to do an interview.

which he wouldn't have given you had you not emphasized your current calling

CFR - He knew I was a Bishop - I was unaware that he planned to delve into that area. I was unprepared for the questions hes asked regarding my calling and My outline had nothing to with using my title.

and your appearance at a Sunstone symposium (which we have been counseled to avoid) -- again using your calling to get there -- which seem to put an unusual sheen upon your statements.

CFR again (Bob notice the pattern) I was asked to appear at the conference because a man by the name of Bruce Fey asked me. He asked because of the podcast and my connecting with those who struggle in their faith publically through the podcast (at least my assumption).

Bob, you can't make implications about others for things that you have no evidence and frankly that your completely wrong on.

So CFR.

Lastly, those at the top levels have been informed of what I am doing, what makes you in a higher state of authority to condemn what I am doing?

[DBMormon]

It is not the only way, nor is it even necessary, honestly. For example, your points 1 and 2 are weakened by such artificial separation. Also, as you would have it, God commands us to do things which are meritless, pointless, and futile.

I don't consider being on a path that leads to perfection pointless and futile

[Yep]

For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the GRACE of God."

LDS.ORG's definiton states clearly that Grace allows me to do "good Works" I can not do on my own. So who gets merits for those good works getting done?... me? or Christ? It is Christ, as without him and his Grace, I can't do them on my own. I am an unprofitable servant, but with God all things are possible.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but are you stating that the individual gets no recognition for works done? Also, are you stating that Man can do no good on his own?

From what I have read, your position does not seem to be correct, unless my understanding is mistaken at some point.

From an LDS perspective, we are not depraved, a view that we can do no good on our own is incorrect. We are divine in nature and have a tendency towards good.

The "Grace of God" enables us to be free of Satan and his chains, the chains of death and hell. Thus when we do good, follow the will of God, we do so by His Grace. This does not remove merit from the individual. The glory of God is increased through the merit of His children. Satan believed that he would gain glory by removing any individual merit and simply returning God's children to Him, this conflicted with the plan of salvation. Man must merit his position in Heaven, this adds to the glory of God. We are indebted to Christ for the Atonement, we glorify Christ in the same manner, and at the same time as we glorify the Father. When Christ is glorified, the Father is glorified even more through the glory of the Son. A position that removes merit from the individual removes glory from Christ and from God. By extension, a theology that removes any merit from God's children is a theology based in the doctrines of Satan.

A claim to individual merit does not lessen or rob God nor does it cheapen the Atonement. Individual merit does the opposite. Through the Atonement we are able to be free of death and sin and thus are capable of meriting our position in Heaven. Through the Atonement we are able to truly glorify our Father in Heaven.

When we do good, we do it ourselves. However, we do have the help and support of our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ. We are able to do it because we are no longer under condemnation. Christ is not Satan, He does not seek to thwart our agency nor does He wish to claim our individual merit as His own. Christ's Atonement is enabling. The Atonement enables us to merit our position in Heaven.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Yep

[volgadon]

Instead I see keeping the commandments and keeping the gospel as different as the law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

Not to be nitpicky, but it specifically is the law of Moses in that verse, not any generic law. It is a significant distinction.

Edited May 13, 2013 by volgadon

[DBMormon]

Not to be nitpicky, but it specifically is the law of Moses in that verse, not any generic law. It is a significant distinction.

But it speaks to the idea of laws and commandments. The gospel is very different from listing commandments.

[Bob Crockett]

But it speaks to the idea of laws and commandments. The gospel is very different from listing commandments.

Luke 18:

¹⁸ A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

¹⁹ “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. ²⁰ You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’^[a]”

²¹ “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

²² When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

I am not bound by statements that for me personally the Holy Ghost does not confirm to me. I am bound to truth as I see it and not as one leader here or one leader there imposes it on me.

Unless you are a general authority, you are bound by statements of the Brethren. And the Brethren are bound by the correlation program. And as a bishop you are duty bound by your stake president and his direct line.

You say: "This podcast is for all leaders of the church to better grasp why faith crisis occurs and how they can be helpful. It's a crash course on what you are dealing with and why Faith Crisis is not always a bad thing."

I really wonder about this. You say you have permission from the highest level to do this? Whom might that be?

Do you have any authorities to suggest that the Abrahamic Covenant doesn't apply? I have lots more quotes to give you. Should I continue? Do you agree with what is being said in my quotes, or disagree?

Let's see if you agree with this, and I quote from my post above:

Michael Wilcox published an article in the January 1998 Ensign, entitled "The Abrahamic Covenant," where Bro. Wilcox tells us that we must "Do the Works of Abraham."

Quoting from Moses 5:11, Bro. Wilcox tells us that "eternal life" is available "unto all the obedient." He talks about the nature of the covenant. "Every covenant involves two parties." As far as members of the Church are concerned, the blessings of exaltation under the covenant are available "inasmuch as we are willing to enter “into my law. … But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father," again citing scriptures.

I hope you don't get upset with my challenges. This topic usually doesn't interest me but I have spent a productive Sunday thinking about your points and researching them, when I could have instead been watching basketball. So, you're doing something to help save a brother.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[Bob Crockett]

From an LDS perspective, we are not depraved, a view that we can do no good on our own is incorrect. We are divine in nature and have a tendency towards good.

Really excellent post, although you'll have to deal with the BoM's reference to us being less than dust. I recall as a week-old missionary reading the BoM for the first time and coming across that passage and it very much influencing me about my relationship with God.

[Yep]

Really excellent post, although you'll have to deal with the BoM's reference to us being less than dust. I recall as a week-old missionary reading the BoM for the first time and coming across that passage and it very much influencing me about my relationship with God.

Humility statements, while great and wonderful in some respects, fall short in overall understanding by those who hear them. I believe that it was Elder Holland's talk in April that addressed this. We must acknowledge our weakness, we must acknowledge our position in relation to the Father and the Son. This doesn't impact who we are our what our potential is, nor what we can, and do, do. We need to acknowledge our strengths and ability as well as our weakness. We are children of the divine. We can become joint heirs with Christ to all the Father has. We are divine in our true nature.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Yep

[DBMormon]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but are you stating that the individual gets no recognition for works done? Also, are you stating that Man can do no good on his own?

Man can do much good on his own. And that good is recognized and blessings are given for it, but it does not earn us salvation. We are in the negative. It is not our righteousnes or our works that save us, it is yielding our heart to god. But even if he were to serve God all the days of his life he would be an unprofitable servant (in the negative).

In order to reach exaltation, one will need to do good works he can not do on his own. To do so he must do it through God's Grace or enabling power.

Still to this point no one here has addressed the church's own definition of this process, I actually think this is very clear. I'll post the entire thing here and we can dissect it.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=679f2f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Grace

Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.

Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

Everyone on earth experiences physical death. Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever (see 1 Corinthians 15:20–22; 2 Nephi 9:6–13).

Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8–10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9; James 2:17–22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).

The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27).

1.) Grace is help or strength, an enabling power that allows us to do good works we could not do on our own

2.) We all sin and fall short and we can not return back to God with this gift of Grace

3.) Through Grace and mercy and because of the atonement we can be forgiven

4.) In order to receive this gift that allows us to be exalted we must obey the gospel (How do we define that/)

- having faith, repenting, receiving ordinances, and "trying" to follow Christ's teachings.

5.) I see no statement here about all we can do, or expending my own best effort, or keeping the commandments perfectly. Why? I submit because the tone, and stance is distancing itself from the "all we can do" and "expending our own best effort"

We want to pull out GA statements but we also can't square them perfectly with scripture. here is just a sample of BOM scriptures on the subject.

2nd Nephi all of chapter 31 with special focus to verse 18-21 then going to Ch 32:6

Helaman 3:35

2nd Nephi 2:3

3rd Nephi 27:16-20

Alma 42:22-24

Alma 24:11

Mosiah 5:15

Jacob 4:7, 12

Ether 12:27

2nd Nephi 25: 23-26, 29-30

Alma 24:11 (goes with 2nd Nephi 25:23)

Moroni 10:32-33

2nd Nephi all of chapter 31 with special focus to verse 18-21 then going to Ch 32:6

Helaman 3:35

2nd Nephi 2:3

3rd Nephi 27:16-20

Alma 42:22-24

Alma 24:11

Mosiah 5:15

Jacob 4:7, 12

Ether 12:27

2nd Nephi 25: 23-26, 29-30

Alma 24:11 (goes with 2nd Nephi 25:23)

Moroni 10:32-33

Again there is way more then this, but here is a start

[Tacenda]

Man can do much good on his own. And that good is recognized and blessings are given for it, but it does not earn us salvation. We are in the negative. It is not our righteousnes or our works that save us, it is yielding our heart to god. But even if he were to serve God all the days of his life he would be an unprofitable servant (in the negative).

In order to reach exaltation, one will need to do good works he can not do on his own. To do so he must do it through God's Grace or enabling power.

Still to this point no one here has addressed the church's own definition of this process, I actually think this is very clear. I'll post the entire thing here and we can dissect it.

http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD

1.) Grace is help or strength, an enabling power that allows us to do good works we could not do on our own

2.) We all sin and fall short and we can not return back to God with this gift of Grace

3.) Through Grace and mercy and because of the atonement we can be forgiven

4.) In order to receive this gift that allows us to be exalted we must obey the gospel (How do we define that/)

- having faith, repenting, receiving ordinances, and "trying" to follow Christ's teachings.

5.) I see no statement here about all we can do, or expending my own best effort, or keeping the commandments perfectly. Why? I submit because the tone, and stance is distancing itself from the "all we can do" and "expending our own best effort"

We want to pull out GA statements but we also can't square them perfectly with scripture. here is just a sample of BOM scriptures on the subject.

2nd Nephi all of chapter 31 with special focus to verse 18-21 then going to Ch 32:6

Helaman 3:35

2nd Nephi 2:3

3rd Nephi 27:16-20

Alma 42:22-24

Alma 24:11

Mosiah 5:15

Jacob 4:7, 12

Ether 12:27

2nd Nephi 25: 23-26, 29-30

Alma 24:11 (goes with 2nd Nephi 25:23)

Moroni 10:32-33

2nd Nephi all of chapter 31 with special focus to verse 18-21 then going to Ch 32:6

Helaman 3:35

2nd Nephi 2:3

3rd Nephi 27:16-20

Alma 42:22-24

Alma 24:11

Mosiah 5:15

Jacob 4:7, 12

Ether 12:27

2nd Nephi 25: 23-26, 29-30

Alma 24:11 (goes with 2nd Nephi 25:23)

Moroni 10:32-33

Again there is way more then this, but here is a start

No wonder so many people that read the BoM love it and convert over it. Does the D&C have very many scriptures alluding to Grace?

DB, I saw this when I tried to pull up these scriptures. It is about the same conversation as this one. And happened a year ago in May. Weird how things go round and round.

http://www.mormondia...d-role-of-each/

Edited May 13, 2013 by Tacenda

[Bob Crockett]

We want to pull out GA statements but we also can't square them perfectly with scripture. here is just a sample of BOM scriptures on the subject.

Well, since this thread is about Michael Wilcox, I'd like to know if you agree what he said in his article about the Abrahamic Covenant, as I highlight above.

This is supposed to be a dialogue, not you just preaching at me. Can you tell me whether are not the Abrahamic Covenant applies to you and to me?

I submit because the tone, and stance is distancing itself from the "all we can do" and "expending our own best effort"

This is way over the top in terms of Mormon doctrine, my friend.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bob Crockett