Brad Wilcox'S View On Grace

DBMormon · May 14, 2013

No, it doesn't speak to the general idea of laws and commandments. Paul is concerned with one specific law codex- the Torah, or law of Moses.
If your claim is to be credible, it must be bolstered with more than misunderstood evidence.
There is more to the gospel than just commandments, but it is no more different from them than your limbs are very different from you.

I understand what your saying but one must understand that the commandments we have today are made of mostly of ones included in the law of moses as well. They are outward actons "thou shalt not steal" . The Savior gave the two great commandments (love God, Love others) they are inward.

Consider Bro. Wilcox's words

If Christ did not require faith and repentance, then there would be no desire to change. Think of your friends and family members who have chosen to live without faith and without repentance. They don’t want to change. They are not trying to abandon sin and become comfortable with God. Rather, they are trying to abandon God and become comfortable with sin. If Jesus did not require covenants and bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost, then there would be no way to change. We would be left forever with only willpower, with no access to His power. If Jesus did not require endurance to the end, then there would be no internalization of those changes over time. They would forever be surface and cosmetic rather than sinking inside us and becoming part of us—part of who we are. Put simply, if Jesus didn’t require practice, then we would never become pianists.

then consider his piano analogy and do me a favor. Throw out what you think the doctrine is for just a second and try to hear these words as unobjectively as possible. I used to view things as you and Bob do. And while serving in the calling that I can't talk about, people came to see me discouraged and giving up. They felt there was a bar and no matter how hard they tried, they fell severly short (in their eyes). I struggled with the balance of all they had to do and yet seeing the task at something they could progress at without feeling overwhelmed. then after consider Elder Maxwell's which I conclude with.

Christ’s arrangement with us is similar to a mom providing music lessons for her child. Mom pays the piano teacher. How many know what I am talking about? Because Mom pays the debt in full, she can turn to her child and ask for something. What is it? Practice! Does the child’s practice pay the piano teacher? No. Does the child’s practice repay Mom for paying the piano teacher? No. Practicing is how the child shows appreciation for Mom’s incredible gift. It is how he takes advantage of the amazing opportunity Mom is giving him to live his life at a higher level. Mom’s joy is found not in getting repaid but in seeing her gift used—seeing her child improve. And so she continues to call for practice, practice, practice.
Elder Dallin H. Oaks has said, referring to President Spencer W. Kimball’s explanation, “The repenting sinner must suffer for his sins, but this suffering has a different purpose than punishment or payment. Its purpose is change” (The Lord’s Way [salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1991], 223; emphasis in original). Let’s put that in terms of our analogy: The child must practice the piano, but this practice has a different purpose than punishment or payment. Its purpose is change.
I have born-again Christian friends who say to me, “You Mormons are trying to earn your way to heaven.”
I say, “No, we are not earning heaven. We are learning heaven. We are preparing for it (see D&C 78:7). We are practicing for it.”
“But Brother Wilcox, don’t you realize how hard it is to practice? I’m just not very good at the piano. I hit a lot of wrong notes. It takes me forever to get it right.” Now wait. Isn’t that all part of the learning process? When a young pianist hits a wrong note, we don’t say he is not worthy to keep practicing. We don’t expect him to be flawless. We just expect him to keep trying. Perfection may be his ultimate goal, but for now we can be content with progress in the right direction. Why is this perspective so easy to see in the context of learning piano but so hard to see in the context of learning heaven?
there should never be just two options: perfection or giving up. When learning the piano, are the only options performing at Carnegie Hall or quitting? No. Growth and development take time. Learning takes time. When we understand grace, we understand that God is long-suffering, that change is a process, and that repentance is a pattern in our lives. When we understand grace, we understand that the blessings of Christ’s Atonement are continuous and His strength is perfect in our weakness (see 2 Corinthians 12:9). When we understand grace, we can, as it says in the Doctrine and Covenants, “continue in patience until [we] are perfected” (D&C 67:13).

Now may I speak, not to the slackers in the Kingdom, but to those who carry their own load and more; not to those lulled into false security, but to those buffeted by false insecurity, who, though laboring devotedly in the Kingdom, have recurring feelings of falling forever short.
The first thing to be said of this feeling of inadequacy is that it is normal. There is no way the Church can honestly describe where we must yet go and what we must yet do without creating a sense of immense distance.
In a Kingdom where perfection is an eventual expectation, each other’s needs for improvement have a way of being noticed.
Thus the feelings of inadequacy are common. So are the feelings of fatigue; hence, the needed warning about our becoming weary of well-doing. (SeeD&C 64:33.)
Yes, brothers and sisters, this is a gospel of grand expectations, but God’s grace is sufficient for each of us.

For me it just clicked. I saw commandments and obedience for what they were a tool God uses to shape us into being like his Son (eternal goal) that

2nd Nephi 31:19-21 came alive for me - I saw what God was trying to do with us. And then I grasped Justification and sanctification and what both were (being made clean and being changed) and realize God will clean all of us to stand before him, but only those changed get to live with him forever. D&C 88:21. So I asked how does this sanctification come. Helaman 3:35 Sanctification cometh by "yielding our hears to God" and when that happens one receives the mighty change and one knows by the spirit they are on the path to eternal perfection.

The Works are outward and we see them and their important but truly god recognizes we are all different and that some of his children have challenges so big that if held to the standard of "keep all his commandments in this life, they will walk away having given up at trying as the they see the bar as too high. Take away the bar (which bro Wilcox argues doesn't even exists) and as long as they understand this concept, they won't give up and they will try harder then before.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.2nd Nephi 31:

D&C 88:19 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

Helaman 3:35 - Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God

The commandments are not the standard. They are the tools God uses to get us heading to the standard - to some day be like his Son. His Son submits his will completely, he keeps the Commandments. And in a sense he lives by the spirit. His Grace is suffcient.. it simply is. But we are not saved by Grace alone. We must do things. They are just different in my mind then yours.

some thoughts.....

Tacenda · May 14, 2013

In this youtube we have people that left the church, who've found Grace. What drove them to this point? Alot of what they say is that they felt shackled with the Grace taught to them in the LDS church. Also, one of them, once they felt saved (don't laugh), felt joy not just in the temple or at a baptism but every minute of every day. And this person said that before that she'd lay in bed at night and feel guilty over everything she didn't do. And she'd pray that if she got to live another day she'd try again. Another said she looked at church for someone that she would feel had peace while in the church, she wanted to stay and attend even if she no longer believed. When she looked around during a fast Sunday, all she saw was sadness (of course that's probably because they're hungry!). Also, she had attended a yoga class and felt peace radiate from one of the gals there, and she approached her and asked what it was that was radiating the peace. And the gal said she found Jesus and had left the church at 19.

Anyway, so many testimonies about Christ and peace, joy etc. Grace shouldn't be a burden, or a continual try better, try better (even at piano lessons DB). All the analogies fall by the wayside. The only way to be rid of the shackles is to completely come to the faith that Grace is free. Once that happens you can feel the joy and in turn give your life to Him and that's where the works come into play. And these are works from a perspective of your feeling joy and want to give back. I've yet to do this, I'm on the fence.....hopefully not forever. Is the church true? Is it all about becoming Gods, or is there a place for people like these, that have left? Is the church true, that we are to go on a ladder (masonic sort of) to the top to become like God in every way? Or perfected in Him but not to actually become a God like Him?

So many questions, but I have to say, alot of what they say isn't really true of every LDS out there. One spot they touch on is that the church discourages you to read church history. That's not true! I guess you could say the EV's got a hold of them. But do you think we can as LDS look at Grace differently then what has been taught? I think we need to. People take that "try to do better" more literally than most. I never felt like that lady, I don't think I laid in bed feeling guilty all night but did feel guilty for not accomplishing the things I thought needed to be done. I did want my family to be that perfect LDS family, that I thought everyone was. And then had some negative feed back from a few of my teenagers at the time, two are inactive now, maybe because of my trying to look good to everyone else. So I have definitely been a bad example of that, I'm still a long way off of having a relationship with God. But is that me or my upbringing in the church? I don't know. Do any of you have that relationship with the Saviour or God? Or is it all me? Something wrong with me? Maybe we need LDS to be on a stage platform like this and be honest in every way of what Grace means to them, and what God means to them. It would be nice to hear from both sides, an honest side by side. Maybe this has been done before? Maybe these people are all just broken misfits? Not really, but it's interesting how they came out of Mormonism and people on this board are tried and "true blue" all the way through.

volgadon · May 14, 2013

I understand what your saying but one must understand that the commandments we have today are made of mostly of ones included in the law of moses as well. They are outward actons "thou shalt not steal" . The Savior gave the two great commandments (love God, Love others) they are inward.

Perhaps you are unaware of the Jewish division of the law into two parts- commandments concerning God and man, and commandments concerning man and his fellow man. Perhaps you are also unaware of the statement attributed to Hillel, who predated Jesus. "What you find hateful, do not do to your fellow. That is the entire Torah, the rest is commentary." Inwardness of intent applied to outward actions, boggles your mind, doesn't it?

Also, many of the laws in the law of Moses predate it, and even Paul himself still considered some of them essential.

Consider Bro. Wilcox's words
then consider his piano analogy and do me a favor. Throw out what you think the doctrine is for just a second and try to hear these words as unobjectively as possible. I used to view things as you and Bob do. And while serving in the calling that I can't talk about, people came to see me discouraged and giving up. They felt there was a bar and no matter how hard they tried, they fell severly short (in their eyes). I struggled with the balance of all they had to do and yet seeing the task at something they could progress at without feeling overwhelmed. then after consider Elder Maxwell's which I conclude with.

Unobjectively, or objectively? I've served as counsellor in branch presidencies. I've seen what you describe, but no one here is arguing that perfection is instant.

For me it just clicked. I saw commandments and obedience for what they were a tool God uses to shape us into being like his Son (eternal goal) that
2nd Nephi 31:19-21 came alive for me - I saw what God was trying to do with us. And then I grasped Justification and sanctification and what both were (being made clean and being changed) and realize God will clean all of us to stand before him, but only those changed get to live with him forever. D&C 88:21. So I asked how does this sanctification come. Helaman 3:35 Sanctification cometh by "yielding our hears to God" and when that happens one receives the mighty change and one knows by the spirit they are on the path to eternal perfection.
The Works are outward and we see them and their important but truly god recognizes we are all different and that some of his children have challenges so big that if held to the standard of "keep all his commandments in this life, they will walk away having given up at trying as the they see the bar as too high. Take away the bar (which bro Wilcox argues doesn't even exists) and as long as they understand this concept, they won't give up and they will try harder then before.
The commandments are not the standard. They are the tools God uses to get us heading to the standard - to some day be like his Son. His Son submits his will completely, he keeps the Commandments. And in a sense he lives by the spirit. His Grace is suffcient.. it simply is. But we are not saved by Grace alone. We must do things. They are just different in my mind then yours.
some thoughts.....

Are the commandments a tool, or are they part of who God is? I submit that the latter is the case.

CV75 · May 14, 2013

The commandments are not the standard. They are the tools God uses to get us heading to the standard - to some day be like his Son. His Son submits his will completely, he keeps the Commandments. And in a sense he lives by the spirit. His Grace is suffcient.. it simply is. But we are not saved by Grace alone. We must do things. They are just different in my mind then yours.
some thoughts.....

RE: the implication of commandments as tools on the piano lesson explanation of grace:

“Practice” is a noun and a verb. Obedience to commandments is practice for the actual set of things we will do (and be) when we are perfected; it is also the actual set of things we will do and be once we are perfected. We cannot enjoy the “noun” without the former “verb.” For example, we may not always pay tithe, but we cannot enjoy (do, be) something better without paying tithe first. Grace is not any kind of short cut.

The boy practices the piano, and with a willing heart, becomes a practitioner of the piano, no matter how poorly or how well he plays--his practice is in the satisfaction he has in playing it however well he plays it. Grace is found in his path to becoming a virtuoso: his willing heart invites grace to attend him as follows: the virtuoso forgives the awful noise the boy is making, condescends to play the piano with the boy, and then invites the boy to play the piano with him. Patience, forgiveness, instruction, practice, love, condescension, humility, effort, and innumerable other attributes work together simultaneously to manifest grace. As both continue to do their parts, the boy will eventually become a virtuoso.

A more talented boy can only receive grace if he has a willing heart. A virtuoso can only have grace if he does not coerce his students.

danielwoods · May 14, 2013

Nobody has said that we had to pay the price, or atone for our sins. Christ did that 2000 years ago. But Christ did not reconcile us individually that takes something on our part, namely faith in HIm.

You stated,

Lightbearer, on 13 May 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

Where does Christ ever say that we do not need to keep the commandments to be saved? LDS are not trying to "earn our way" without Christ, that is impossible. But through Christ and His infinite atonement we are enabled to keep His commandments even Paul said so:

Your point is that Christ helps us keep the commandments, which has been argued is necessary for Eternal Life/Exaltation/Salvation.

My counter point to that is that, Eternal Life/Exaltation/Salvation is all based on our relationship to him directly. Not based on anything else. That relationship is gained through a change of attitude (repentance) toward God. That's it. How is this possible? Because Christ paid the whole price, not just part of it. There is nothing left to pay! No amount of keeping the commandments will change our connection or relationship to him.

It's like saying, my younger son does more of what I ask of him, therefore I love him more. No. Actually I love all my kids the same. They all have the same status as sons, not because of what they do, but because of our relationship.

Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments" so basically the proof of our faith is in how well we keep His commandments. Jesus taught as much in the following: Doing is more than saying, that is the proof of our faith, that is what I am talking about. I am not talking about atoning for our own sins, that is not what LDS scriptures are saying. They are saying that to make His atonement active in our lives we must have a living faith, the kind James spoke of:
Faith alone is not a biblical doctrine. This is the works I am talking about, this is the keeping the commandments I am talking about. Without it there is no salvation because without such works there is no faith persent. And without faith it is impossible to please God, for He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. So I cannot seperate faith from works, the works of faith are required of us or we have no promise.

In response I would point out that God knows all things. He has no need to see a proof of our faith. Further, he has no need to have us "DO" anything. If he really needed something done, he could make the Rocks do it. What is really happening is connection to God produces life, and we walk in the spirit of God as a result. Which then results in something that looks like "keeping his commandments". In the LDS view it appears that the cart is before the horse. We don't keep the commandments to prove our faith. We keep the commandments because our love and faith compels us. It changes our hearts first to Want to and desire to follow God in all things. The change, "Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind..." Happens first. Then things that other people can observe, such as righteous living, happen after.

Juxtapose the idea of "enduring until the end" with "enjoying until the end" Which do you think God designed us for? I for one will be enjoying what God has for us today and into the future!

Edited May 14, 2013 by danielwoods

Lightbearer · May 15, 2013

You stated,
Lightbearer, on 13 May 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:
Where does Christ ever say that we do not need to keep the commandments to be saved? LDS are not trying to "earn our way" without Christ, that is impossible. But through Christ and His infinite atonement we are enabled to keep His commandments even Paul said so:
Your point is that Christ helps us keep the commandments, which has been argued is necessary for Eternal Life/Exaltation/Salvation.
My counter point to that is that, Eternal Life/Exaltation/Salvation is all based on our relationship to him directly. Not based on anything else. That relationship is gained through a change of attitude (repentance) toward God. That's it. How is this possible? Because Christ paid the whole price, not just part of it. There is nothing left to pay! No amount of keeping the commandments will change our connection or relationship to him.

So you are saying that God does not really care about righteousness? Also how do you believe one can change their attitude without changing one's actions? Why do you insist on calling keeping one's covenants with God (part of our relationship with Him) payment for sin? That is a straw man, because in LDS belief the first principle of the Gospel is Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. As part of that faith we must not just talk the talk but we must walk the walk. If we do not walk in the light then we are in darkness. To say no amount of keeping the commandments will change our relationship with Him is like saying being faithful to our wife in the marriage covenant is meaningless it's only the "thought that counts" such an idea is untenable. The whole purpose of the atonement is to bring us back to God and to become one with Him. Repentance is more than just feeling sorry, as Paul said godly sorry works to repentance. Repentance means change, both in heart and in action. That is what James was talking about, not "proving it to God" but actually doing it not just making a lip service confession, but actually changing our lives.

It's like saying, my younger son does more of what I ask of him, therefore I love him more. No. Actually I love all my kids the same. They all have the same status as sons, not because of what they do, but because of our relationship.

If God does not care about our actions, then why not save ALL mankind? I mean if we are not agents unto ourselves, if Christ "did it all" why not do it for all His children? Is God a respecter of persons? If all our works are but "filthy rags" if we are powerless to turn to God, does that mean God "compells us" when we do turn our hearts to Him?

In response I would point out that God knows all things. He has no need to see a proof of our faith. Further, he has no need to have us "DO" anything. If he really needed something done, he could make the Rocks do it. What is really happening is connection to God produces life, and we walk in the spirit of God as a result. Which then results in something that looks like "keeping his commandments". In the LDS view it appears that the cart is before the horse. We don't keep the commandments to prove our faith. We keep the commandments because our love and faith compels us. It changes our hearts first to Want to and desire to follow God in all things. The change, "Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind..." Happens first. Then things that other people can observe, such as righteous living, happen after.
Juxtapose the idea of "enduring until the end" with "enjoying until the end" Which do you think God designed us for? I for one will be enjoying what God has for us today and into the future!

Yes God knows all things, but that is not the point. This earth life is a training ground, a school for US. We are His children and He gives us the opportunity to advance and become as He is through the development of our faith. That faith is the power whereby God operates. If we do not turn to God then He cannot save us. Life is not about just admitting we are sinners and going to heaven without effort, without working by our faith. The reason Christ was the Father's beloved Son "in whom He is well pleased" is because Christ had perfect faith and perfect righteousness. He was sinless... that is the point God wants us to approach. We cannot do it alone, we must have the atonement of Christ to break the bonds of death and sin so that we can overcome the world and sin through faith. This faith is shown in actions, not in word or desire alone. So really all I am saying is that God requires of us certain things and those things are essential if we want to be like He is. The reason He requires them is because He loves us and the reason we want to do these things should also be because we love Him. Christ said it best: "If you love me, keep my commandments."

teddyaware · May 15, 2013

So you are saying that God does not really care about righteousness? Also how do you believe one can change their attitude without changing one's actions? Why do you insist on calling keeping one's covenants with God (part of our relationship with Him) payment for sin? That is a straw man, because in LDS belief the first principle of the Gospel is Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. As part of that faith we must not just talk the talk but we must walk the walk. If we do not walk in the light then we are in darkness. To say no amount of keeping the commandments will change our relationship with Him is like saying being faithful to our wife in the marriage covenant is meaningless it's only the "thought that counts" such an idea is untenable. The whole purpose of the atonement is to bring us back to God and to become one with Him. Repentance is more than just feeling sorry, as Paul said godly sorry works to repentance. Repentance means change, both in heart and in action. That is what James was talking about, not "proving it to God" but actually doing it not just making a lip service confession, but actually changing our lives.
If God does not care about our actions, then why not save ALL mankind? I mean if we are not agents unto ourselves, if Christ "did it all" why not do it for all His children? Is God a respecter of persons? If all our works are but "filthy rags" if we are powerless to turn to God, does that mean God "compells us" when we do turn our hearts to Him?
Yes God knows all things, but that is not the point. This earth life is a training ground, a school for US. We are His children and He gives us the opportunity to advance and become as He is through the development of our faith. That faith is the power whereby God operates. If we do not turn to God then He cannot save us. Life is not about just admitting we are sinners and going to heaven without effort, without working by our faith. The reason Christ was the Father's beloved Son "in whom He is well pleased" is because Christ had perfect faith and perfect righteousness. He was sinless... that is the point God wants us to approach. We cannot do it alone, we must have the atonement of Christ to break the bonds of death and sin so that we can overcome the world and sin through faith. This faith is shown in actions, not in word or desire alone. So really all I am saying is that God requires of us certain things and those things are essential if we want to be like He is. The reason He requires them is because He loves us and the reason we want to do these things should also be because we love Him. Christ said it best: "If you love me, keep my commandments."

This can all be distilled down to a very simple principle: Dead works (i.e. works devoid of the Spirit of God) are counter-productive and detrimental to salvation -- even though these dead works might outwardly appear to be of God; living works (works inspired by the Spirit of God) are productive and advantageous to bring the soul that diligently performs them closer to God.

To some of those who believed and had already come unto Christ the Lord once admonished:

"15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth (an absense of living works in the lives of the saints is very distasteful to God).

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked (i.e. their works are dead):

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see (i.e. we must dosomething).

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent (i.e. change your behaviour).

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

We are commanded of God to overcome the world by constant repentance, coupled with a living faith in God that inspires living works before we can be seated in the throne of Christ and inherit all he possesses.

Edited May 15, 2013 by teddyaware

Tacenda · May 15, 2013

So you are saying that God does not really care about righteousness? Also how do you believe one can change their attitude without changing one's actions? Why do you insist on calling keeping one's covenants with God (part of our relationship with Him) payment for sin? That is a straw man, because in LDS belief the first principle of the Gospel is Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. As part of that faith we must not just talk the talk but we must walk the walk. If we do not walk in the light then we are in darkness. To say no amount of keeping the commandments will change our relationship with Him is like saying being faithful to our wife in the marriage covenant is meaningless it's only the "thought that counts" such an idea is untenable. The whole purpose of the atonement is to bring us back to God and to become one with Him. Repentance is more than just feeling sorry, as Paul said godly sorry works to repentance. Repentance means change, both in heart and in action. That is what James was talking about, not "proving it to God" but actually doing it not just making a lip service confession, but actually changing our lives.
If God does not care about our actions, then why not save ALL mankind? I mean if we are not agents unto ourselves, if Christ "did it all" why not do it for all His children? Is God a respecter of persons? If all our works are but "filthy rags" if we are powerless to turn to God, does that mean God "compells us" when we do turn our hearts to Him?
Yes God knows all things, but that is not the point. This earth life is a training ground, a school for US. We are His children and He gives us the opportunity to advance and become as He is through the development of our faith. That faith is the power whereby God operates. If we do not turn to God then He cannot save us. Life is not about just admitting we are sinners and going to heaven without effort, without working by our faith. The reason Christ was the Father's beloved Son "in whom He is well pleased" is because Christ had perfect faith and perfect righteousness. He was sinless... that is the point God wants us to approach. We cannot do it alone, we must have the atonement of Christ to break the bonds of death and sin so that we can overcome the world and sin through faith. This faith is shown in actions, not in word or desire alone. So really all I am saying is that God requires of us certain things and those things are essential if we want to be like He is. The reason He requires them is because He loves us and the reason we want to do these things should also be because we love Him. Christ said it best: "If you love me, keep my commandments."

So if you are to be as Christ is, are you going to first create your world with the help of your father and the first being, another Adam. Then wait to see the choice Eve or whomever makes, if she makes the choice to become a goddess, then that will be the right choice, yet wrong choice. Go down and take on that sin and everyone else but first preach the gospel and gather followers. Right up to then being crucified, and then resurrected. And then wait for a wife to join you after they die and create a world with your son whom you created with your wife and then create billions of spirit children but the son is different because he will be a Saviour according to how the first woman chooses, and then the cycle occurs again. Is that what it means to become like Him? Repeat what He did? I'm being serious, not making fun. I'm curious what in your mind it means to become perfect, what happens to us when we are like Him? Just to reiterate, I'm not mocking you.

Yep · May 15, 2013

Is that what it means to become like Him? Repeat what He did? I'm being serious, not making fun. I'm curious what in your mind it means to become perfect, what happens to us when we are like Him? Just to reiterate, I'm not mocking you.

John 5:19-20

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Yes, a degree of repetition is a part of becoming like Him.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Yep

Lightbearer · May 15, 2013

So if you are to be as Christ is, are you going to first create your world with the help of your father and the first being, another Adam. Then wait to see the choice Eve or whomever makes, if she makes the choice to become a goddess, then that will be the right choice, yet wrong choice. Go down and take on that sin and everyone else but first preach the gospel and gather followers. Right up to then being crucified, and then resurrected. And then wait for a wife to join you after they die and create a world with your son whom you created with your wife and then create billions of spirit children but the son is different because he will be a Saviour according to how the first woman chooses, and then the cycle occurs again. Is that what it means to become like Him? Repeat what He did? I'm being serious, not making fun. I'm curious what in your mind it means to become perfect, what happens to us when we are like Him? Just to reiterate, I'm not mocking you.

Christ is our prototype of salvation. If we are perfected in Him we become as the Father is. Meaning the following:

"And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just— They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given— That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things— They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God— Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's, and Christ is God's. And they shall overcome all things. Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet. These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people. These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection. These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just. These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all. These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn. These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all. These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood. These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical." (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:50-70)

Again more has been revealed about this topic one thing we do not do it alone, man and woman have been created in the image and likeness of God:

"And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory. For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also. This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law. Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law." (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:19-25)

Exaltation is no more nor less than living the kind of life God the Father lives in eternity and the only way or means we mortals can even think to approach such a high calling, is through the grace of Jesus Christ, He is the one that makes it possible because that is the only way we can be cleansed of our transgressions and made perfect. But if we fail to keep His commandments we cannot hope to attain godhood. Eternal Life is living the life that God the Father lives. I do not know all the details of how this comes about but I do know that if we so attain such a calling then our work and our glory will be the same as God the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (our children those spirits who will come through our spiritual lineage just as we came through the Father's lineage) This is done because of our relationship with God, if we improve our time here or rather make correct choices and if we repent of incorrect choices (meaning to have a change of heart and actions) then we will after our faith is tested we will be allowed to sit down in the Father's throne just as the Son of God has done. This is the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, He not only forgives us but will exalt us with Him as we are faithful:

"BEHOLD, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." (New Testament | 1 John 3:1-3)

This is the hope we seek as LDS. Hope this helps.

danielwoods · May 15, 2013

“So you are saying that God does not really care about righteousness?”

No, what I am saying is that Christ is our righteousness. Christ paid the price. He took our punishment. We now have his righteousness. That’s what the Gospel means. He paid our debt, that we couldn’t pay. Nothing we do adds or takes away from that. The only thing we can do is accept it or reject it.

“Also how do you believe one can change their attitude without changing one's actions?”

A changed attitude is always done inside a person. Tell me how you can tell what someone is thinking?

Sure, once the attitude of repentance brings forth fruit, we all can see it. But, the fruit isn’t what saves us, it is simply a sweet byproduct of our transformation.

“Why do you insist on calling keeping one's covenants with God (part of our relationship with Him) payment for sin? That is a straw man, because in LDS belief the first principle of the Gospel is Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. As part of that faith we must not just talk the talk but we must walk the walk. If we do not walk in the light then we are in darkness. To say no amount of keeping the commandments will change our relationship with Him is like saying being faithful to our wife in the marriage covenant is meaningless it's only the "thought that counts" such an idea is untenable. The whole purpose of the atonement is to bring us back to God and to become one with Him. Repentance is more than just feeling sorry, as Paul said godly sorry works to repentance. Repentance means change, both in heart and in action. That is what James was talking about, not "proving it to God" but actually doing it not just making a lip service confession, but actually changing our lives.”

Two things here. One is the insistence by the LDS that works are necessary for salvation/exaltation, that is the main reason. Why is it they necessary, if Christ paid for all the sin?

Second, keeping the commandments and “walking the walk” are not something we do, but something that Spirit does through us as a result of our being transformed by the renewing of our mind.

“If God does not care about our actions, then why not save ALL mankind? I mean if we are not agents unto ourselves, if Christ "did it all" why not do it for all His children? Is God a respecter of persons? If all our works are but "filthy rags" if we are powerless to turn to God, does that mean God "compells us" when we do turn our hearts to Him?”

Indeed the payment Christ made on the cross was for all mankind. All creation groans and waits for the redemption of sons of God.

Just because our works are as filthy rags doesn’t mean that we are unable to turn (change our attitude) toward God. It’s God’s desire that all turn to him. In essence, men will be condemned for rejecting the salvation/redemption that God freely offers (relationship with God), not for any sin they committed.

“Yes God knows all things, but that is not the point. This earth life is a training ground, a school for US. We are His children and He gives us the opportunity to advance and become as He is through the development of our faith. That faith is the power whereby God operates. If we do not turn to God then He cannot save us. Life is not about just admitting we are sinners and going to heaven without effort, without working by our faith. The reason Christ was the Father's beloved Son "in whom He is well pleased" is because Christ had perfect faith and perfect righteousness. He was sinless... that is the point God wants us to approach. We cannot do it alone, we must have the atonement of Christ to break the bonds of death and sin so that we can overcome the world and sin through faith. This faith is shown in actions, not in word or desire alone. So really all I am saying is that God requires of us certain things and those things are essential if we want to be like He is. The reason He requires them is because He loves us and the reason we want to do these things should also be because we love Him. Christ said it best: "If you love me, keep my commandments."”

The LDS idea that this is a trial period or a training ground leads to the “works are necessary” mentality. For example, the Jn. 14 passage you quoted. Notice that the whole passage contains relationship language, and then in verse 10 he states:

“10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”

Relationship, Notice that it’s the Father that dwells in him that does the works. Hmmm… seems to me that’s missing in the LDS view. Because that’s exactly what I’ve been saying. God in us does the works through us. Then in verse 15, if you love me keep my commandments, comes in the context of God working inside of us, within our love relationship with him. Seems the opposite emphasis than what I hear from the LDS.

danielwoods · May 15, 2013

This can all be distilled down to a very simple principle: Dead works (i.e. works devoid of the Spirit of God) are counter-productive and detrimental to salvation -- even though these dead works might outwardly appear to be of God; living works (works inspired by the Spirit of God) are productive and advantageous to bring the soul that diligently performs them closer to God.
To some of those who believed and had already come unto Christ the Lord once admonished:
"15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth (an absense of living works in the lives of the saints is very distasteful to God).
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked (i.e. their works are dead):
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see (i.e. we must dosomething).
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent (i.e. change your behaviour).
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)
We are commanded of God to overcome the world by constant repentance, coupled with a living faith in God that inspires living works before we can be seated in the throne of Christ and inherit all he possesses.

Let’s look at this passage. (copied with your comments)

Rev.3:15 “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth (an absense of living works in the lives of the saints is very distasteful to God). 

Note, your comment is focusing on the word “works”. It’s the only place in this passage where it’s mentioned. However, there is no such thing as “living works” that is not in the passage. What is in the passage though is an emphasis on relationship to God. Notice the wording, “lukewarm, neither cold or hot”. What is it we say when we are madly in love with someone? We are certainly not lukewarm are we? We don’t use this language when talking about works though, curious, huh? Like, “dude that job you did was so hot!” Actually, works are either correctly done, as in “good job” or not. What is a lukewarm work? What it has to be referencing is relationship to God.

---

“17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked (i.e. their works are dead)

Once again, the reference to works is not here. What is here is a reference to their state of being. “Rich, in need of nothing” or “Wretched and Miserable, and poor, and blind and naked” are references to their condition, not their works. Why is their state of being so bad? Why are they blind, and they don’t realize it? Stay tuned!

-----

18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see (i.e. we must dosomething). 

Interesting your emphasis on work again. Yet it’s not in this part either. We must do something what is that? What must we do? He says, “buy of me gold… and white raiment and anoint thine eyes.” Ok, how do we buy and anoint? Good question huh? Stay tuned!

----------

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent (i.e. change your behaviour). 

Once again your focus on work or behavior. The verse says as many as I love, which is a focus on connection or relationship. Be zealous in our relationship and repent. Change your direction or heart and mind.

-------

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

I notice that you had no comments about verse 20. Not surprised, but it is the key to the passage. “Behold! I stand at the door and knock… I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with me.”

How do we buy gold and white raiment? How do we overcome? It isn’t “HOW” but from “WHOM” is the question.

None other than from God himself and in relationship to him. It has nothing to do with continually repenting, but has everything to do with being connected continually to him as he originally designed us to be ("Pray without ceasing"). Jesus said, where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Making God your treasure, your heart, means to buy gold, and to be rich. Having a salve for the eyes is to have the spirit. The eyes are the gateway to the soul.

Why were the Laodiceans blind and wretched? Not connected to God in relationship. Not madly in love.

Edited May 15, 2013 by danielwoods

teddyaware · May 15, 2013

Let’s look at this passage. (copied with your comments)
Rev.3:15 “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth (an absense of living works in the lives of the saints is very distasteful to God). 
Note, your comment is focusing on the word “works”. It’s the only place in this passage where it’s mentioned. However, there is no such thing as “living works” that is not in the passage. What is in the passage though is an emphasis on relationship to God. Notice the wording, “lukewarm, neither cold or hot”. What is it we say when we are madly in love with someone? We are certainly not lukewarm are we? We don’t use this language when talking about works though, curious, huh? Like, “dude that job you did was so hot!” Actually, works are either correctly done, as in “good job” or not. What is a lukewarm work? What it has to be referencing is relationship to God.
---
“17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked (i.e. their works are dead)
Once again, the reference to works is not here. What is here is a reference to their state of being. “Rich, in need of nothing” or “Wretched and Miserable, and poor, and blind and naked” are references to their condition, not their works. Why is their state of being so bad? Why are they blind, and they don’t realize it? Stay tuned!
-----
18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see (i.e. we must dosomething). 
Interesting your emphasis on work again. Yet it’s not in this part either. We must do something what is that? What must we do? He says, “buy of me gold… and white raiment and anoint thine eyes.” Ok, how do we buy and anoint? Good question huh? Stay tuned!
----------
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent (i.e. change your behaviour). 
Once again your focus on work or behavior. The verse says as many as I love, which is a focus on connection or relationship. Be zealous in our relationship and repent. Change your direction or heart and mind.
-------
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)
I notice that you had no comments about verse 20. Not surprised, but it is the key to the passage. “Behold! I stand at the door and knock… I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with me.”
How do we buy gold and white raiment? How do we overcome? It isn’t “HOW” but from “WHOM” is the question.
None other than from God himself and in relationship to him. It has nothing to do with continually repenting, but has everything to do with being connected continually to him as he originally designed us to be ("Pray without ceasing"). Jesus said, where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Making God your treasure, your heart, means to buy gold, and to be rich. Having a salve for the eyes is to have the spirit. The eyes are the gateway to the soul.
Why were the Laodiceans blind and wretched? Not connected to God in relationship. Not madly in love.

Like others I've encounters on this board, you are presumptuous...

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Matthew 22:37)

Obviously, the first and greatest commandment of God we must obey (something we must do) is to love God and Christ with all of our heart, soul and mind. That is the foundation of a gospel life. Unless one loves God in this manner, everything else he does in the name of the Lord is of no avail. Moroni, in the Book of Mormon, puts it this way:

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen (Moroni 7)

That being said, would you agree with me that loving God with all one's heart, soul and mind is doing something? Or is God going to love himself for us without any effort to love him on our part?

The second great commandment "is like unto the first," "love your neighbor." Would you agree that when one truly loves his fellow man, doing so actually requires some sort of effort? Or is God going to love our neighbor for us without any effort to demonstrate that love on our part?

Like it or not, deeply loving God and your neighbor is doing something, even that doing something is just exerting mental effort; you're doing something you didn't do before.

But the Lord goes on to tell us we cannot keep the first great commandment, to love him, if we don't keep the second great commandment. In the following verses he shows loving God and neighbor are inextricably linked to one another:

³¹When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

³²And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

³³And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

³⁴Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

³⁵For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

³⁶Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

³⁷Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

³⁸When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

³⁹Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

⁴⁰And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

⁴¹Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

⁴²For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

⁴³I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

⁴⁴Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

⁴⁵Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

⁴⁶And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25)

To put the above verses into the modern vernacular, the Lord wants us to put our money where out mouth is; we are expected to demonstrate our love for him by how we treat our fellow man. To put it another way -- talk is cheap.

God's commandments should be the focus of our faith and love. Do you believe God is equally satisfied with a professed believer who claims he loves God with all his heart, but never bothers to pray (inaction), as He is with a professed believer who testifies he loves God and fervently prays to Him regularly by the piower of the Spirit (action)?

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.John 14: 21.

As Christ's salvative power enables the children of God to progressively become more and more like God, we should think, feel and act like Him increasingly, each passing day, If we are not thinking, feeling and acting like him more each say, something is amiss.

Edited May 15, 2013 by teddyaware

danielwoods · May 15, 2013

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Matthew 22:37)
Obviously, the first and greatest commandment of God we must obey (something we must do) is to love God and Christ with all of our heart, soul and mind. That is the foundation of a gospel life. Unless one loves God in this manner, everything else he does in the name of the Lord is of no avail. Moroni, in the Book of Mormon, puts it this way:
47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen (Moroni 7)
Would you agree that loving God with all one's heart, soul and mind is doing something? Or is God going to love himself for us without any effort to love him on our part?
The second great commandment "is like unto the first," "love our neighbor." Would you agree that when one truly loves his fellow man, doing so actually requires some sort of effort? Or is God going to love our neighbor for us without any effort to demonstrate love on our part?
Like it or not, deeply loving God and your neighbor is doing something, even if it is just exerting mental effort -- you're doing something you didn't do before.
But the Lord goes on to tell us we cannot keep the first great commandment, to love him, if we don't keep the second great commandment. In the following verses he shows loving God and neighbor are inextricably linked to one another:
³¹When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
³²And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
³³And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
³⁴Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
³⁵For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
³⁶Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
³⁷Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
³⁸When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
³⁹Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
⁴⁰And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
⁴¹Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
⁴²For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
⁴³I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
⁴⁴Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
⁴⁵Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
⁴⁶And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25)
To put the above verses into the modern vernacular, the Lord wants us to put our money where out mouth is; we are expected to demonstrate our love for him by how we treat our fellow man. To put it another way -- talk is cheap.
God's commandments should be the focus of our faith and love. Do you believe God is equally satisfied with a professed believer who claims he loves God with all his heart but never bothers to pray (inaction) as He is with a professed believer who testifies he loves God and fervently prays to Him regularly by the piower of the Spirit (action)?
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.John 14: 21.
As Christ's salvative power enables the children of God to progressively become more and more like God, we should think, feel and act like Him increasingly, each passing day,

I find it fascinating that you didn't respond to what I stated. Rather bringing up new passages.

In essence, Loving God is only done when we are in relationship with him, reconciled to him through Christ. This is what saves us. Loving God.

Your question. "Would you agree that loving God with all one's heart, soul and mind is doing something? Or is God going to love himself for us without any effort to love him on our part?"

Of course Love is an action, and a feeling. It is what God created us to do, be in fellowship/relationship/connection to him.

Do you agree that it is that connection that saves us? Or is there some other work that you believe needs to be done to be saved?

teddyaware · May 15, 2013

"Of course Love is an action, and a feeling. It is what God created us to do, be in fellowship/relationship/connection to him."

So we are in agreement on this point.

"Do you agree that it is that connection that saves us? Or is there some other work that you believe needs to be done to be saved?"

Yes, that loving connection with God saves, if being saved means thinking, feeling and acting like God. And if being saved means overcoming this fallen world by living faith in Christ -- a faith that motivates to godly actions that enable one to grow in the grace, knowledge and power of God. Paul describes the process of eternal progression prefectly:

¹²Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

¹³Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

¹⁴I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil 3)

And Peter too:

¹⁴Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless;

¹⁵And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

¹⁶As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

¹⁷Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. (2 Peter 3)

Edited May 16, 2013 by teddyaware

Tacenda · May 15, 2013

Christ is our prototype of salvation. If we are perfected in Him we become as the Father is. Meaning the following:
Again more has been revealed about this topic one thing we do not do it alone, man and woman have been created in the image and likeness of God:
Exaltation is no more nor less than living the kind of life God the Father lives in eternity and the only way or means we mortals can even think to approach such a high calling, is through the grace of Jesus Christ, He is the one that makes it possible because that is the only way we can be cleansed of our transgressions and made perfect. But if we fail to keep His commandments we cannot hope to attain godhood. Eternal Life is living the life that God the Father lives. I do not know all the details of how this comes about but I do know that if we so attain such a calling then our work and our glory will be the same as God the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (our children those spirits who will come through our spiritual lineage just as we came through the Father's lineage) This is done because of our relationship with God, if we improve our time here or rather make correct choices and if we repent of incorrect choices (meaning to have a change of heart and actions) then we will after our faith is tested we will be allowed to sit down in the Father's throne just as the Son of God has done. This is the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, He not only forgives us but will exalt us with Him as we are faithful:
This is the hope we seek as LDS. Hope this helps.

I've been at work all day, I will now try and read this all the way through, looks good so far, thanks for taking the time Lightbearer!

Yep · May 15, 2013

Danielwoods,

We have been discussing this for a while now, and I am not sure I was ever aware of what salvation is to you. What is salvation to you? Is it simply being allowed into Heaven? Is it something more? What exactly is it?

If you explained this already, I am sorry, I am getting old and don't always remember well.

Lightbearer · May 16, 2013

No, what I am saying is that Christ is our righteousness. Christ paid the price. He took our punishment. We now have his righteousness. That’s what the Gospel means. He paid our debt, that we couldn’t pay. Nothing we do adds or takes away from that. The only thing we can do is accept it or reject it.

So basically you are saying that we are unable to fall from grace? That once in a born again state one can never fall? Why then the warnings to watch and pray always that we be not led into temptation? Who is Peter talking about here?

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." (New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20-22)

A changed attitude is always done inside a person. Tell me how you can tell what someone is thinking?
Sure, once the attitude of repentance brings forth fruit, we all can see it. But, the fruit isn’t what saves us, it is simply a sweet byproduct of our transformation.

No doubt about that, a changed attitude does come from within, but if there are no outward manifestations of it then no change has actually occured:

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (New Testament | James 1:22-25)

Why the need for such council if our keeping the commandments does not matter one whit to our salvation?

Two things here. One is the insistence by the LDS that works are necessary for salvation/exaltation, that is the main reason. Why is it they necessary, if Christ paid for all the sin?
Second, keeping the commandments and “walking the walk” are not something we do, but something that Spirit does through us as a result of our being transformed by the renewing of our mind.

Christ paid for all the sins of those who repent and follow Him. If keeping the commandments are not something we do then where does that leave this scripture?

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (New Testament | John 5:28-29)

Since Christ says that we will be juged for something we DO, then I suggest doing good rather than evil makes a difference.

Indeed the payment Christ made on the cross was for all mankind. All creation groans and waits for the redemption of sons of God.
Just because our works are as filthy rags doesn’t mean that we are unable to turn (change our attitude) toward God. It’s God’s desire that all turn to him. In essence, men will be condemned for rejecting the salvation/redemption that God freely offers (relationship with God), not for any sin they committed.

Why judge anyone according to their works if all there good works are filthy rags? Note the following:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (New Testament | Revelation 20:12-13)

So if we do not add anything or take away anything by what we do, why judge us by our works?

The LDS idea that this is a trial period or a training ground leads to the “works are necessary” mentality. For example, the Jn. 14 passage you quoted. Notice that the whole passage contains relationship language, and then in verse 10 he states:
“10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”
Relationship, Notice that it’s the Father that dwells in him that does the works. Hmmm… seems to me that’s missing in the LDS view. Because that’s exactly what I’ve been saying. God in us does the works through us. Then in verse 15, if you love me keep my commandments, comes in the context of God working inside of us, within our love relationship with him. Seems the opposite emphasis than what I hear from the LDS.

Actualy nothing is missing in the LDS view unless one wrests the scriptures and believes that we are nothing more than divine puppets. The actual doctrine you are trying to understand is found in exclusively LDS scripture here:

"For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:19)

Our will is really the only thing we can give to God. He will not take it from us, we must choose to follow Him. We accept HIm and HIs atonement, and after we have faith in Him and repent of our sins, we make a covenant with Him at baptism to take upon us His name, and promise to always remember Him and to keep His commandments so that we will always have HIs spirit to be with us. This covenant we renew when we partake of the sacrament of the Lord's supper each week. We strive to yield to the enticings of the spirit so that we can follow Him and do the things that He has commanded us. Edited May 16, 2013 by Lightbearer

teddyaware · May 16, 2013

misfire

Edited May 16, 2013 by teddyaware

DBMormon · May 16, 2013

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1985/04/taking-upon-us-the-name-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

Talk by Elder oaks that emphasizes the willingness we covenant with

do a ctrl+f and type in Willing

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-23-the-sacrament?lang=eng

We covenant that we are willing to take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ. By this we show we are willing to be identified with Him and His Church. We commit to serve Him and our fellowman. We promise that we will not bring shame or reproach upon that name.

danielwoods · May 16, 2013

Danielwoods,
We have been discussing this for a while now, and I am not sure I was ever aware of what salvation is to you. What is salvation to you? Is it simply being allowed into Heaven? Is it something more? What exactly is it?
If you explained this already, I am sorry, I am getting old and don't always remember well.

No worries. Since I am not LDS being saved to me means to have fellowship with God, now and into eternity. In essence, it is everything that the LDS believe about being exalted (with the exception about the "becoming gods" part).

danielwoods · May 16, 2013

“So basically you are saying that we are unable to fall from grace? That once in a born again state one can never fall? Why then the warnings to watch and pray always that we be not led into temptation? Who is Peter talking about here?”

False. I didn’t say that, and don’t believe that. Of course the one thing that God has given us is freedom to choose him or not. It is that freedom that gives meaning to our relationship with him.

“No doubt about that, a changed attitude does come from within, but if there are no outward manifestations of it then no change has actually occured:
Quote
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (New Testament | James 1:22-25)
Why the need for such council if our keeping the commandments does not matter one whit to our salvation?”

First the question about repentance being an attitude, first you agree, then disagree. Which is it?

I would argue that it is God who judges and sees the heart, not us. So for us to state that there is no change on the inside because there is not enough of a change (according to your arbitrary standard, whatever that may be) is false.

The James passage isn’t talking about salvation. Rather what is called sactification, the process whereby we let the spirit transform our lives.

Christ paid for all the sins of those who repent and follow Him. If keeping the commandments are not something we do then where does that leave this scripture?
Quote
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (New Testament | John 5:28-29)
Since Christ says that we will be juged for something we DO, then I suggest doing good rather than evil makes a difference.”

Notice that the scripture you quoted doesn’t say, “they that have kept the commandments…” Rather it says they that have “done good.”

What is the greatest thing we can do “good” in this life? (Hint the greatest commandment) Love God. Which is a description of a relationship with God, not “doing commandments” as you appear to be implying.

Why judge anyone according to their works if all there good works are filthy rags? Note the following:
Quote
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (New Testament | Revelation 20:12-13)
So if we do not add anything or take away anything by what we do, why judge us by our works?”

First, the passage you are quoting is a reference to the Great White Throne Judgement, not a judgement of believers, but unbelievers. So, he’s not judging us, but non-believers.

The final statement, which you didn’t include says, “15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

The question then is how does one get their name written into the book of life? I would contend it’s by personally knowing and having a relationship with the author directly, based on other passages. If one doesn’t have a relationship, then he judges them based on their “works” as seen in this passage.

“Actualy nothing is missing in the LDS view unless one wrests the scriptures and believes that we are nothing more than divine puppets. The actual doctrine you are trying to understand is found in exclusively LDS scripture here:
Quote
"For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:19)
Our will is really the only thing we can give to God. He will not take it from us, we must choose to follow Him. We accept HIm and HIs atonement, and after we have faith in Him and repent of our sins, we make a covenant with Him at baptism to take upon us His name, and promise to always remember Him and to keep His commandments so that we will always have HIs spirit to be with us. This covenant we renew when we partake of the sacrament of the Lord's supper each week. We strive to yield to the enticings of the spirit so that we can follow Him and do the things that He has commanded us.”

No where have I said that we are but divine puppets.

The continual “striving” to achieve something so we can follow him, I disagree is a NT principle. It is similar to the Jewish Christians thinking that the Gentiles had to do something to become followers of God. (Acts 15) The thinking was that the Gentiles weren’t fully saved until they also followed the commands of Moses too. And Peter made this interesting statement.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”

That is all. Through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, no more keeping commandments that have the appearance of righteousness, but rely on the arm of the flesh, which no one can keep anyway. It's really quite plain and simple.

Tacenda · May 16, 2013

False. I didn’t say that, and don’t believe that. Of course the one thing that God has given us is freedom to choose him or not. It is that freedom that gives meaning to our relationship with him.
First the question about repentance being an attitude, first you agree, then disagree. Which is it?
I would argue that it is God who judges and sees the heart, not us. So for us to state that there is no change on the inside because there is not enough of a change (according to your arbitrary standard, whatever that may be) is false.
The James passage isn’t talking about salvation. Rather what is called sactification, the process whereby we let the spirit transform our lives.
Notice that the scripture you quoted doesn’t say, “they that have kept the commandments…” Rather it says they that have “done good.”
What is the greatest thing we can do “good” in this life? (Hint the greatest commandment) Love God. Which is a description of a relationship with God, not “doing commandments” as you appear to be implying.
First, the passage you are quoting is a reference to the Great White Throne Judgement, not a judgement of believers, but unbelievers. So, he’s not judging us, but non-believers.
The final statement, which you didn’t include says, “15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
The question then is how does one get their name written into the book of life? I would contend it’s by personally knowing and having a relationship with the author directly, based on other passages. If one doesn’t have a relationship, then he judges them based on their “works” as seen in this passage.
No where have I said that we are but divine puppets.
The continual “striving” to achieve something so we can follow him, I disagree is a NT principle. It is similar to the Jewish Christians thinking that the Gentiles had to do something to become followers of God. (Acts 15) The thinking was that the Gentiles weren’t fully saved until they also followed the commands of Moses too. And Peter made this interesting statement.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”
That is all. Through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, no more keeping commandments that have the appearance of righteousness, but rely on the arm of the flesh, which no one can keep anyway. It's really quite plain and simple.

I really appreciate reading your views on the matter. They're all fairly new to me and very helpful.

teddyaware · May 16, 2013

Let’s look at this passage. (copied with your comments)
Rev.3:15 “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth (an absense of living works in the lives of the saints is very distasteful to God). 
Note, your comment is focusing on the word “works”. It’s the only place in this passage where it’s mentioned. However, there is no such thing as “living works” that is not in the passage. What is in the passage though is an emphasis on relationship to God. Notice the wording, “lukewarm, neither cold or hot”. What is it we say when we are madly in love with someone? We are certainly not lukewarm are we? We don’t use this language when talking about works though, curious, huh? Like, “dude that job you did was so hot!” Actually, works are either correctly done, as in “good job” or not. What is a lukewarm work? What it has to be referencing is relationship to God.
---
“17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked (i.e. their works are dead)
Once again, the reference to works is not here. What is here is a reference to their state of being. “Rich, in need of nothing” or “Wretched and Miserable, and poor, and blind and naked” are references to their condition, not their works. Why is their state of being so bad? Why are they blind, and they don’t realize it? Stay tuned!
-----
18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see (i.e. we must dosomething). 
Interesting your emphasis on work again. Yet it’s not in this part either. We must do something what is that? What must we do? He says, “buy of me gold… and white raiment and anoint thine eyes.” Ok, how do we buy and anoint? Good question huh? Stay tuned!
----------
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent (i.e. change your behaviour). 
Once again your focus on work or behavior. The verse says as many as I love, which is a focus on connection or relationship. Be zealous in our relationship and repent. Change your direction or heart and mind.
-------
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)
I notice that you had no comments about verse 20. Not surprised, but it is the key to the passage. “Behold! I stand at the door and knock… I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with me.”
How do we buy gold and white raiment? How do we overcome? It isn’t “HOW” but from “WHOM” is the question.
None other than from God himself and in relationship to him. It has nothing to do with continually repenting, but has everything to do with being connected continually to him as he originally designed us to be ("Pray without ceasing"). Jesus said, where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Making God your treasure, your heart, means to buy gold, and to be rich. Having a salve for the eyes is to have the spirit. The eyes are the gateway to the soul.
Why were the Laodiceans blind and wretched? Not connected to God in relationship. Not madly in love.

Daniel,

I'm inclined to oblige you by responding specifically to each line of the above post. But pending your approval, I think rather than pouring over and answering the whole of it all at once, thereby risking that the import of my responses will get lost in a torrent of words, I will post my commentary to one line of yours at a time. Then we can dialogue on that specific point in dispute until we're ready to move on to the next line. Though painstaking, I think this methodical approach will be the most comprehensive, and illuminating way to discuss our differences. And so I begin:

Daniel's line 1) "Note, your comment is focusing on the word “works”. It’s the only place in this passage where it’s mentioned."

Ted's response: Must confess I was somewhat astonished at this line, as in my humble opinion it is so weak that it seems to be the polemical equivalent to a hanging curve ball. To understand how I preceive the weakness of this point, please consider with great care the following words of the Lord:

"1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and ^btestify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 ¶And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 ¶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 ¶He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3)

So why did I want you to read the above? because within John's entire account of Jesus' encounter with Nicodemus the word love appears only once (as you know, it's found in verse 16). So by your logic, this section of sacred writ has little to nothing to do with the love of God, because the word love appears only once in all 21 verses, while the words "born" and "light," for instance, are used much more. I know this all seems like a ridiculous and even childish exercise, but that's my point. This line is not one of your better moments.

Your turn...

Edited May 16, 2013 by teddyaware

danielwoods · May 16, 2013

I really appreciate reading your views on the matter. They're all fairly new to me and very helpful.

Thank you for your kind words!

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