Brad Wilcox'S View On Grace

[danielwoods]

A very famous Jew once asked a question about two brothers. One refused to do what his father asked, but later changed his mind, went and did it. The other said yes, but then did not go and do. Which son actually did what his father wanted?

I recommend this essay by a friend of mine and ocassional poster on this board. It looks into the New Testament understanding of grace. http://www.academia....mon_Soteriology

And then "Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. ³² For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him." (Matt. 21)

Thanks for the link. I agree with this quote, "There is no sense of earning the relationship by keeping the commandments."

Edited May 9, 2013 by danielwoods

[volgadon]

Our being reconciled or reconnected to God is the goal because that is what saves us, everything else, such as deeds and works, etc. are works the Spirit does through us, which are a result of our connection and relationship to God.

Those aren't works that the Spirit does through us as much as they are our response to the Spirit.

[volgadon]

Thanks for the link. I agree with this quote, "There is no sense of earning the relationship by keeping the commandments."

Exactly.

[danielwoods]

Those aren't works that the Spirit does through us as much as they are our response to the Spirit.

Not disagreeing. Though the point is deeds aren't what saves us, or makes us pure, rather the connection or relationship is.

[Wanderer7]

I like his view, because I believe he is right... our own efforts don't save us and never will. Further, a preoccupation with perfectionism is harmful. However, I think his view is incomplete. It needs to be combined with the following principle:

"A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has sufficient power to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation" (LOF)

Probably the best commentary on this principle has been provided by Elder Maxwell:

"How could we be entrusted with [the Father's] 'all' until our wills are much more like His? Nor could His 'all' be fully appreciated by the partially committed."

Based on his remarks, it's not our works that save us per se, but we must be willing to do anything the Lord asks before we can be saved (and often it takes doing the work to forge that kind of commitment). Furthermore, there are important things we need to do in this life, which, if left undone, will cause far-reaching negative effects. For instance, he poses this question:

"What of Jesus’ ministry if He had performed additional miracles but without the transcending miracle of Gethsemane and Calvary?"

For a more complete explanation of this view, see the following talks by Elder Maxwell:

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2002/04/consecrate-thy-performance?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/swallowed-up-in-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1985/04/willing-to-submit?lang=eng

And his book "Not my Will, but Thine"

[Yep]

The point is deeds aren't what saves us, or makes us pure, rather the connection or relationship is.

While I agree with this to a point, I also disagree. Works/Deeds/Whatever are extremely important. If all that mattered was our heart and our intent, the atonement would have been unnecessary. More than a connection or relationship is required to purify us. The example provided by God the Father and Christ evidence the need for works. Christ's words weren't "be willing to give up all", Christ's words were "give up everything and follow me." Christ told people, don't just desire to be good, behave so. Christ never answered any of the "What must I do?" questions with an empty statement about attitude and relationship. Christ answered their questions with statements about works. Our intent, attitude, mindset etc. need to be in the right place, but we must do works, they are necessary.

[Calm]

While I agree with this to a point, I also disagree.

I agree with you and your agreement and disagreement. Relationships don't just exist, they are the behaviours and deeds as well as the feelings or the 'statement' of connection. Relationships are as much what we do as what we feel because our feelings exist in our actions, not in some discrete compartment in our head or heart or spirit. We talk about them as if they are separate, as if thoughts and feelings and actions are three different things, but they are all aspects of the same thing just as what we think about a relationship, what we feel about a relationship and what we do about a relationship is the relationship itself, not something separate from it.

To separate the relationship from how we respond to each other (and that includes obeying God's commandments) would be like claiming someone is sick and examining the illness by looking at the germs associated with it and trying to figure out their cellular structure and stuff but then ignoring that the patient was throwing up and had a fever because that didn't give us more information about the germs themselves.

Edited May 10, 2013 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

I agree with you and your agreement and disagreement. Relationships don't just exist, they are the behaviours and deeds as well as the feelings or the 'statement' of connection. Relationships are as much what we do as what we feel because our feelings exist in our actions, not in some discrete compartment in our head or heart or spirit. We talk about them as if they are separate, as if thoughts and feelings and actions are three different things, but they are all aspects of the same thing just as what we think about a relationship, what we feel about a relationship and what we do about a relationship is the relationship itself, not something separate from it.

To separate the relationship from how we respond to each other (and that includes obeying God's commandments) would be like claiming someone is sick and examining the illness by looking at the germs associated with it and trying to figure out their cellular structure and stuff but then ignoring that the patient was throwing up and had a fever because that didn't give us more information about the germs themselves.

This is an excellent and enlightening post!

[danielwoods]

While I agree with this to a point, I also disagree. Works/Deeds/Whatever are extremely important. If all that mattered was our heart and our intent, the atonement would have been unnecessary. More than a connection or relationship is required to purify us. The example provided by God the Father and Christ evidence the need for works. Christ's words weren't "be willing to give up all", Christ's words were "give up everything and follow me." Christ told people, don't just desire to be good, behave so. Christ never answered any of the "What must I do?" questions with an empty statement about attitude and relationship. Christ answered their questions with statements about works. Our intent, attitude, mindset etc. need to be in the right place, but we must do works, they are necessary.

The question is what is salvic? What saves us? Do deeds save us? When Christ said to the rich man, give up everything and follow me, did he mean that everyone must do that? Seems to me that Jesus was pointing out that his God was his money, his possessions. Notice also the statement says, "follow me..." in other words, be in relationship with me. Follow me.

I haven't stated that "all that matters is the heart or intent." Rather, what is salvic is the connection we have to God, not the actions or deeds done in the flesh. Without Christ's work on the cross, we couldn't be reconciled the way we have, so clearly his work was necessary for our salvation. Ours are not. There is no statement or principle in the NT where we must do works to gain a relationship or connection with God.

[Calm]

Rather, what is salvic is the connection we have to God, not the actions or deeds done in the flesh. Without Christ's work on the cross, we couldn't be reconciled the way we have, so clearly his work was necessary for our salvation. Ours are not. There is no statement or principle in the NT where we must do works to gain a relationship or connection with God.

But "works" are part of the relationship and connection. The relationship just doesn't appear out of thin air. It exists in the actions and deeds we do as well as the action that Christ did for us.

[danielwoods]

But "works" are part of the relationship and connection. The relationship just doesn't appear out of thin air. It exists in the actions and deeds we do as well as the action that Christ did for us.

I would contend that the works or deeds done in the flesh, we do them because of our relationship with God. Not to gain a relationship. As I pointed out before, we go through the marriage ceremony as a result of the connection or relationship that already exists, not to gain a relationship. The relationship is established first, deeds are a natural result.

Edited May 10, 2013 by danielwoods

[Tacenda]

I would contend that the works or deeds done in the flesh, we do them because of our relationship with God. Not to gain a relationship. As I pointed out before, we go through the marriage ceremony as a result of the connection or relationship that already exists, not to gain a relationship. The relationship is established first, deeds are a natural result.

So agree here. I think it'd be harder to just accept rather than feel you need to work for that relationship. Just like any gift we give our child. What if they thought they had to work first to get that birthday gift. That would take all the joy out.

[DBMormon]

works are required and necessary, but they have no merit. Rather we are saved by his merits. The works is one of the methods Christ uses to mold us into being like him. Works are part of the "exercising" we are doing to become like him. The more we love him, the more willing we are to do what he requires.

[Calm]

As I pointed out before, we go through the marriage ceremony as a result of the connection or relationship that already exists, not to gain a relationship. The relationship is established first, deeds are a natural result.

But previous deeds are what established the relationship in the first place. It did not spring forth fully formed at the moment prior to the ceremony taking place.

[Calm]

So agree here. I think it'd be harder to just accept rather than feel you need to work for that relationship. Just like any gift we give our child. What if they thought they had to work first to get that birthday gift. That would take all the joy out.

The problem here is using the term "work" as if the actions involved in a relationship are about earning that relationship. I am not saying that.

Actions form a relationship, but that does not mean the relationship is somehow "earned" by those actions. In fact a relationship may be in place formed by abusive actions so that the person actually has harmed the other and should be removed from the relationship by any moral standard...yet the relationship still exists, it doesn't disappear because the person doesn't deserve to be in that relationship.

We may not merit the relationship with God by our actions, but our actions still inform or create part of that relationship. whatever that relationship is.

Edited May 10, 2013 by calmoriah

[Yep]

The question is what is salvic? What saves us? Do deeds save us? When Christ said to the rich man, give up everything and follow me, did he mean that everyone must do that? Seems to me that Jesus was pointing out that his God was his money, his possessions. Notice also the statement says, "follow me..." in other words, be in relationship with me. Follow me.

I haven't stated that "all that matters is the heart or intent." Rather, what is salvic is the connection we have to God, not the actions or deeds done in the flesh. Without Christ's work on the cross, we couldn't be reconciled the way we have, so clearly his work was necessary for our salvation. Ours are not. There is no statement or principle in the NT where we must do works to gain a relationship or connection with God.

Read my initial post in this thread. As to Heaven, all that is required is that your knee bow and your tongue confess.

[danielwoods]

works are required and necessary, but they have no merit. Rather we are saved by his merits. The works is one of the methods Christ uses to mold us into being like him. Works are part of the "exercising" we are doing to become like him. The more we love him, the more willing we are to do what he requires.

"required and necessary" but, not for salvation.

[danielwoods]

The problem here is using the term "work" as if the actions involved in a relationship are about earning that relationship. I am not saying that.

Actions form a relationship, but that does not mean the relationship is somehow "earned" by those actions. In fact a relationship may be in place formed by abusive actions so that the person actually has harmed the other and should be removed from the relationship by any moral standard...yet the relationship still exists, it doesn't disappear because the person doesn't deserve to be in that relationship.

We may not merit the relationship with God by our actions, but our actions still inform or create part of that relationship. whatever that relationship is.

"inform or create part of that relationship."

I'm trying to understand what you are saying. I agree, any relationship has give and take. I guess my only point is that our relationship with God, is what saves us. Not doing the "ordinances" or works or anything else. It's being reconciled to God, that connection that he desires, which saves us.

Now, if you are saying that our change of attitude (often called repentance) toward God is considered a work, then sure I agree. But it's not called a work in the NT sense.

[danielwoods]

Read my initial post in this thread. As to Heaven, all that is required is that your knee bow and your tongue confess.

If it's done within the context of a relationship with God. What I mean is the scripture states, "every knee will bow..." but that doesn't mean everyone will be in Heaven.

[volgadon]

"inform or create part of that relationship."

I'm trying to understand what you are saying. I agree, any relationship has give and take. I guess my only point is that our relationship with God, is what saves us. Not doing the "ordinances" or works or anything else. It's being reconciled to God, that connection that he desires, which saves us.

Now, if you are saying that our change of attitude (often called repentance) toward God is considered a work, then sure I agree. But it's not called a work in the NT sense.

And you cannot form that connection without responding with deeds.

[Calm]

And you cannot form that connection without responding with deeds.

Nice and precise.

An analogy--a marriage relationship isn't in place until both say "I do".

Edited May 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[DBMormon]

"required and necessary" but, not for salvation.

required to become Christlike which is a requirement to be Celestial. How can we become like Christ if we do not do the works he does or at least be willing and trying to be like him and keep trying no matter how slow the progress. I don't feel there is a bar where so many works gets us in. I also see room for folks whose works are not outward, but inward the mighty change is happening and it just is not apparent to themselves or those observing. But if we have Christ's grace, it is the enabling power of Christ helping us to do and become what we otherwise can't on our own. And as we add Grace for Grace, we will improve, we will do more, we will be better. The difference is I see no bar, I simply press forward with steadfastness yielding my heart to Christ and his Grace is helping me to improve. I do not concern myself with what is required. I simply stay in covenant and realize him and I are heading towards a goal. It isn't me doing the progression. It is Christ and I working together.

I don't worry about time. I do not need to be perfect this moment. I simply am concerned with moving forward toward him and with him

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think Works are required and necessary for exhaltation ( Also I define Salvation and Exhaltation the same to me salvation in the scriptures is the exhaltation I seek). But since I can't do it on my own and can only do it through and with him and his grace then I see no merit in my works. He is doing it as he takes my willingness and enables me. I do not concern myself with works. They come and I improve but it isn't a checklist of have to's and don'ts - It occurs naturally as I yield my heart to him and press forward towards becoming like him.

Edited May 11, 2013 by DBMormon

[Tacenda]

Is Jesus my elder brother? Nevermind...

Edited May 11, 2013 by Tacenda

[Bob Crockett]

In the recent priesthood manual regarding Joseph Smith, we learn in Chapter 13 that the Prophet taught:

“[T]hose who keep the commandments of the Lord and walk in His statutes to the end, are the only individuals permitted to sit at this glorious feast . . . ."

“Live in strict obedience to the commandments of God, and walk humbly before Him, and He will exalt thee in His own due time.”

“How careful men ought to be what they do in the last days, lest they are cut short of their expectations, and they that think they stand should fall, because they keep not the Lord’s commandments; whilst you, who do the will of the Lord and keep His commandments, have need to rejoice with unspeakable joy, for such shall be exalted very high, and shall be lifted up in triumph above all the kingdoms of this world.”

It thus matters not whether God's grace is the only thing that will save, or whether we can earn our salvation with our works. Commandment keeping (including daily repentance) is a mandatory precondition to salvation. I would liken it to piano lessons. One must do the work necessary to find a piano.

Joseph Smith further rejected the evangelical doctrine of being "saved by grace". I refer you to the index for "grace" in TPJS. He said that one isn't saved by grace until one reaches the point that sinning will lead to being cast into outer darkness. In other words, one isn't saved (within the meaning of salvation) until the end or one's calling and election is sure.

Joseph Smith rejects Bro Wilcox's definition of being saved by grace. Bro Wilcox teaches in his most recent book that one is saved when one finds the gospel. Joseph Smith says that this is sectarian error and he lists the denominations which teach it.

A great bulk of our religion depends upon what Joseph Smith teaches.

I know Bro. Wilcox personally. He is a great motivational speaker. But he is not an authority in the Church. He conflicts with the Prophet on the doctrine of salvation by grace.

In an April 1998 conference address, Elder Oaks says that the LDS doctrine of being saved by grace conflicts with the evangelical notion. We believe, contrary to Bro Wilcox, that it is a future event. (Elder Oaks notes conflicting definitions of the words "salvation" and "grace", explaining that we receive little versions of God's grace along our journey.)

Elder Oaks says: "And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end." This conflicts with Bro. Wilcox's usage as well as DBMormon's.

I don't question Bro. Reel's faithfulness at all. I wish not to be reported and once again banned. The interpretation of doctrine is often a private concern and, if one is a bishop, a ward's affair. I only point out that one crosses the line of propriety in the church hierarchy when one seeks, in a non-non-profit way, to conduct a ministry to bishops and stake presidents on the doctrine. Relying on one's local position in the church to bolster credentials doesn't help. I happen to agree with many points that Rod Meldrum makes but he is going about it all wrong. So there you have it.

I also don't malign Bro Wilcox by saying that he conflicts with Church doctrine. There is a lot of room in the church to hear emotional or sectarian nonsense. How many times I have heard the parable of the train switch operator sacrificing his son, I can't count.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[Calm]

How many times I have heard the parable of the train switch operator sacrificing his son, I can't count.

I think of all the "Especially for Mormons" genre, that is my most hated one.