teddyaware

The remarkable thing is that they think they’re somehow glorifying God when they assert that men are incapable of being filled with all the fullness of God, but in reality they’re actually asserting that the infinite and eternal God somehow lacks the power to perfect his own creation. And what possible justification could there be for God not wanting to perfect his children whom he created in his own image? Why would he want to prevent them from being just as happy, enlightened and glorious as he is? 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, (Ephesians 3)

There are two primary usages of the term telestial in the church. One use refers to the state of this fallen world so grievously impacted by physical and spiritual death. The second use of the term refers to a kingdom of immortal heavenly glory inhabited by resurrected beings who have received a remission of their earthly sins, and who enjoy constant communion with the Holy Spirit and visitations from heavenly messengers. This fallen telestial earth and the post-resurrection Telestial kingdom of heavenly glory are vastly different entities. For the most part, the only thing these two realms have in common is that they both exist in a condition distant from the immediate presence of God, one much more so than the other.

The Book of Mormon does indeed assert the reality of original sin as a doctrinal concept, one that’s very similar to the original sin doctrine of the Catholic Church. Where the Latter-Day Saints part company with the Catholics on this point is we believe that the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ mitigates the utterly destructive spiritual and temporal effects of the fall, and does so by mercifully allowing every member of the human family to be endowed at birth with the indwelling and uplifting light of Christ so that each individual isn’t left utterly bereft of a spiritual connection with God While it’s true that the Book of Mormon does testify that the fall, if allowed to stand alone without counteraction, would have left man in a state of total spiritual depravity, it’s also true it the Book of Mormon testifies that thanks to the atonement of Christ the totally devastating spiritual effects of the fall are mitigated to the point that all accountable humans are free to draw upon the inner light of Christ to choose good over evil. This means that while the fall could have been the worst possible calamity that could possibly befall the children of men, nevertheless, thanks to the atonement of Christ the fallen state has been transformed into a wisely designed spiritual proving ground in which men and women are able to freely choose between good and evil, and if one so desires, follow Christ on the covenant path to glory. Anything less than this would make God unjust. 6 For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut of from the presence of the Lord. 7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more. 8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more. 9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel light, and strirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness. 10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit. 11 And because of the way of deliverance of our God, the Holy One of Israel, this death, of which I have spoken, which is the temporal, shall deliver up its dead; which death is the grave. (2 Nephi 9)

My church member brother and I both worked on that project to uncover as many quotes about the inheritors of the telestial kingdom as we could find, and did so using the then popular Infobase Library CD-Rom as our source of data. It was amazing and truly eye opening to come to the realization that so many of the early church General Authorities repeatedly taught that accepting Christ as Savior and confessing him before the Father is an absolute prerequisite for entry into the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of glory. Perhaps if the Infobase Library is still available you could do your own search on the subject by using search terms such as “telestial glory, salvation”. As for where that stack of papers might be with the many quotes we printed out at that time might happen be would be a challenge since I’ve moved twice since that time and I’m not a highly organized person. At the conclusion of the project, my brother even wrote a rather long and persuasive summary on our findings. And I must say that as a consequence of that project you could respond to me with your line of reasoning till you’re blue in the face but you’ll never be able to persuade me to budge an inch from my present stance because what the early brethren had to say on the subject if far too beautiful, glorious and sensible to ignore. Without getting bogged down in the rhetorical mire with too much information to digest all at once, let’s proceed by addressing one simple question at a time with direct on-point responses. My first question for you is this: do you believe the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will need to obtain a remission of their sins through Christ prior to receiving their salvation in the telestial kingdom of glory?

So then, you believe the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory will somehow be able to enjoy and appreciate the companionship of the Holy Spirt (whose primary mission is to bear witness of the Father and the Son) after the resurrection without first accepting Christ as their personal Savior? Doctrine and Covenants 76 testifies that the only individuals who will not be forgiven by the final judgement are the sons of perdition (see below). Therefore, do you actually believe the inheritors of the telestial kingdom are going to obtain a remission of their sins and the companionship of the Holy Spirit without first having to exercise faith in Christ unto repentance, an idea that’s taught nowhere in the scriptures? Doctrine and Covenats 76 makes it clear that the only ones who will not eventually be redeemed by the Savior are the sons of perdition. So are you saying that it’s possible to be redeemed and obtain a kingdom of glory without having to exercise agency and agree to this arrangement first? And if the only individuals who will experience the second death are the sons of perdition, are you saying you believe that great hosts of those who will be made spiritually alive through Christ won’t have to first agree to the terms of their redemption — that it will just be thrust upon them without any say in the matter? By the way, about 25 years ago I did a very deep dive on this subject and discovered multiple scores of quotes from many of the early leaders of the Church who consistently taught that entry into the telestial glory is only made possible by an acceptance of Christ as Savior and sincere repentance. 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; 38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. 39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made. 40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us— 41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; 42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; 43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

Doctrine and Covenants 76 provides the answer to your question: Those souls who inherit the terrestrial kingdom of glory are those who have indeed accepted Christ as their Savior, but, as it turns out, they’re not valiant in the testimony of Jesus, hence they receive not the fullness of heavenly reward. Meanwhile the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory are those who at first refuse to come unto Christ, therefore it’s only after they’ve been thrust down to hell where they experience intense spiritual suffering that their rebellious spirits are finally subdued to the point where they’re finally able exercise authentic faith in Christ unto repentance and a remission of sins. The reason why three degrees of glory exist is due to the fact that there are varying degrees of valiancy among all the saved who have the testimony of Jesus..

That’s why I said, “one of the main reasons…”

Do you believe in the resurrection that men and women’s resurrected bodies are going to be anatomically correct, with their internal and external male and female reproductive organs fully intact, or do you believe our resurrected bodies are going to be like genderless Barbie and Ken dolls, with no way beyond mere outward appearance to be able to differentiate between those who were once men and once women on earth? 43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt. 44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is oneGod, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. (Alma 11)

If God has all power in heaven and in earth, and if by the Lord’s own immutable word all things are possible with God, then why is it that (at least according to your thinking) God is somehow incapable of filling his faithful children with a fullness of his divine power and glory, especially in light of the fact that the Apostle Peter powerfully testifies that through faith in Christ we receive all things pertaining unto godliness and are verily made partakers of his own divine nature? 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (1 Peter 1)

It’s your reasoning that’s utterly ridiculous. The beings that inhabit outer darkness may be coeval with God, but they stand in absolute diametric opposition to the infinite and eternal light, life, intelligence, wisdom and love of God. It appears your obsession with DEI may have thrown your power to reason out of kilter.

This issue isn’t as cut and dried as you’d like to think it is. Your ‘ah ha moment’ is deprived of its impact due to the following canonized revelation found in Section 93 of the Doctrine and Covenants. In this Section, Jesus Christ himself testifies that he is indeed the Word with the same intended sense of meaning employed by John (please note that the date of the reception of Doctrine and Covenants 93 is at least one year after his earlier attempt to illuminate the meaning of John 1:1 that you referenced). 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obey my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am; 2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world; 3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one— 4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men. 5 I was in the world and received of my Father, and the works of him were plainly manifest. 6 And John saw and bore record of the fulness of my glory, and the fulness of John’s record is hereafter to be revealed. 7 And he bore record, saying: I saw his glory, that he was in the beginning, before the world was; 8 Therefore, IN THE BEGINNING THE WORD WAS, FOR HE WAS THE WORD, even the messenger of salvation— 9 The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men. 10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

Then why did God, who is infinitely more intelligent and wise than the best of men, cast Lucifer and his followers down to earth to tempt, afflict and torment man? Is God lacking in intelligence and/or wisdom by exposing man to the machinations a being whose designs stand in diametric to all that he stands for if it wasn’t necessary? How can men inherit the fullness of God’s glory, and thereby become joint heirs with Christ in receiving the fullness of God’s blessings, without overcoming the devil, the author of all that is evil and spiritually destructive? 16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. 17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. (Moroni 7) and… 39 And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil. 40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil. (Alma 5) In light of the above verses, it seems to me that saying the devil is unnecessary is suspiciously close to the following: 22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance. 23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment. (2 Nephi 2)

Here you go: "Knowest thou not that thou art a spark of Deity, struck from the fire of His eternal blaze," This is a line from an 1857 article regarding the divine nature of men and women written by John Taylor, who later served as President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a poetic exploration of the eternal nature of human beings

It’s amazing how otherwise knowledgeable members of the church can be so easily led astray! In 2 Nephi 2, the Prophet Lehi makes it abundantly clear that there must needs be opposition in all things in order for there to be a rational predication for the existence of all things. This can only mean that in order for this existence to continue there must be a being capable of thought and action who stands in diametric opposition to God because God is in fact a ‘thing’ — in this case the most important and preeminent of all things. Therefore since God is an intelligent being of perfect righteousness, the law of opposition in all things requires that there must be a living, thinking agent of absolute unrighteousness who stands in diametric opposition to the righteousness God. If this were not the case, Lehi informs us that all things that presently exist would vanish away into nothingness… And take note that in the following verse Lehi testifies that the presence of the devil on earth is EXPEDIENT (necessary) in the Father’s plan of salvation. 27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.” (2 Nephi 2:27)

I’m going to get a big kick out of seeing the shocked expressions on their faces when our friends see with their own eyes that God the Father is a very real Father, with a physical body that’s able to sit upon a throne and hold a book in his right hand! I’m also wondering how Stephen was able to see that Christ was standing on the right hand side of an immaterial being that has no form nor dimensions? 1 And I saw in the right hand of him (God the Father) that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. (Revelation 5) 7 And he (Christ) came and took the book out of the right hand of him (God the Father) that sat upon the throne. (Revelation 5)