Article: "Where Have All The Good Men Gone?"

[smac97]

This is a pretty interesting article: http://acculturated.com/2013/02/15/where-have-all-the-good-men-gone-ask-the-women-too/

It essentially blames radical feminism for demeaning and devaluing the role of men in society. It has some salient observations:

Kay Hymowitz writes:

What also makes pre-adulthood something new is its radical reversal of the sexual hierarchy. Among pre-adults, women are the first sex. They graduate from college in greater numbers (among Americans ages 25 to 34, 34% of women now have a bachelor’s degree but just 27% of men), and they have higher GPAs. As most professors tell it, they also have more confidence and drive. These strengths carry women through their 20s, when they are more likely than men to be in grad school and making strides in the workplace. In a number of cities, they are even out-earning their brothers and boyfriends. Still, for these women, one key question won’t go away: Where have the good men gone?

Once upon a time, there was a war on women, by women, and women lost. This war was called radical feminism, and today we inhabit the wasteland of a post-feminist nightmare. It is a world where manhood is not valued by many and fatherhood is absentee.

This is rather stong language, but I think it's generally accurate.

So men are not men, and women are confused that men, having no models for how to behave, cannot tell the difference between attractive womanhood and common sluttery, or the difference between honorable manliness and unrelenting braggodocio.

The author is referring to particular dimensions of the male-female relationship, but the overarching concept - the diminution of the value of men - is apt. I think we are seeing an alarming number of adult males who behave like teenagers or frat boys well beyond the teen/fratboy years because, well, that's how they are perceived. So men in their 20s and 30s who spend absurd amounts of time, money and attention on inanities like computer games, drinking and substance abuse, promiscuity, etc., and who are generally indifferent to career and familial ambitions, are becoming more and more common.

Where have all the good men gone? The answer is: they have been snatched up, held onto, eradicated from the marketplace, because they are so few in number. And there will be fewer still, barring a backlash of some kind.

I have two daughters, and I must confess that I worry that they will grow up and not have a sufficient pool of suitable men to choose from.

Feminism, properly understood, is not about the granting of power but rather its negation. We no longer teach girls that they control the future, even if men think they control the present, and in so doing concede to men power they once only thought they had–the power to muck about, do nothing, and still find a woman with relative ease later in life after the fun stops.

The reference here to "muck(ing) about, do(ing) nothing" appears rather widespread. I teach at a local university, and I see a lot of young men who appear altogether unprepared to go into the real world, to get married, to start a family, to support a family.

I remember the first time a woman swore at me, in Manhattan, for holding a door for her according to my Southern instincts, an indictment of old-fashioned manners in a compressed Bronx vowel. It was a jarring moment, and I have never forgotten it.

I had a similar experience. It was my first date. Ever. I was 17. I asked out a girl I had known and been friends with for several years. I was exhilerated when I approached her door, introduced myself to her father and shook his hand, stood for pictures, etc. Then it happened. As we were approaching my car, I moved ahead and opened her door for her, and she immediately - and rather sharply - demanded that I not open her door, that she was perfectly capable of doing it herself. I complied with her request, but later on in the date tried again (simply because this seemed The Thing To Do), and she again sharply demanded that I not open the door for her.

It was indeed a "jarring moment." It happened more than twenty years ago, and I still remember the feelings of humiliation and confusion at being berated by my date - my first date - for attempting to express a simple token of courtesy and respect. I look back now and wonder where this girl - who had been a good friend - got the idea that a man opening a door for a woman is an insult. Radical feminism, methinks.

I haven’t stopped holding doors open, but I’ve noticed others have. Men are all overgrown boys, after all (myself most definitely included)–it’s experience in life, the lessons we take from our mistakes and our triumphs, that makes us men.

I feel very fortunate that I married a woman who appreciates such expressions. I also feel fortunate that I had a roommate in the Army from Georgia who taught me, by example, the significance of simple tokens of respect to women. We were at a language school in California, and it was a pretty laid-back place. But not for John. Where the other students in our class called our civilian instructor by her first name, John called her "Ms. ____________" or "Ma'am." Every time. His responses to her were "Yes, ma'am" and "No, ma'am." Every time. He helped her with her books in the morning. He held the door open for her. He stood up when she entered and exited the room. These were simple tokens, but our teacher loved him for it. I do not think she had ever been shown such respect in all her years of teaching. In the many years since that time, I have tried to emulate my friend John.

Women now hold on to a ridiculous concept of what they ought to expect of a man. Consider the models described in this Atlantic piece, which sounds more like a job description for a rather dull internship than a thriving and prosperous marital partnership.

Mr. Q executes whatever tiny tasks you assign, without argument—he accepts a stack of envelopes and addresses them, picks up the dry cleaning before noon, is on call for 24/7 emergency carpooling, and, best of all, when handed a grocery list, returns with—get this—that grocery list’s exact items (“not Tropicana carton orange juice but fresh-squeezed Naked Orange Mango”).

If that’s all you want, you’ll get even less. Turn relationships into the equivalent of a work-study course, and you’ll get the same level of fulfillment from them.

Agreed. The above description is not of a man, but of a manservant.

If you believe, as I do, that people respond to models, incentives, and the marketplace, this is not very surprising. The dark side of feminism was creating a relationship environment that put relatively little if any qualifications on any man before you take him to bed, and even less after.

I wish the author didn't dwell so much on the sexual component of relationships, but perhaps that's where the principal problem lies. The Sexual Revolution has yielded a very unhealthy environment where sexuality, and access to it, is diminished and devalued. "Why buy the cow" has now become an idiom to express this idea: http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Why+buy+a+cow+when+you+can+get+milk+for+free%3F

If young men are ever going to stop treating women like objects and instead like creatures of value, then women have to stop behaving like objects and stop confusing a wicked strut with life-affirming power. That ship has long since sailed.

And this is where I get to the application of the Restored Gospel. I believe the LDS Church has healthy and correct teachings about women, and that boys and men in the Church will do well if they adhere to those teachings.

Thoughts?

-Smac

[Duncan]

it's a complicated issue for sure. Plus it isn't just a singles issue either, married men do all these types of things, overbalance in various areas of life. I recall phoning my EQ Pres. once and his wife answered and said he couldn't come to the phone because he was "gaming" and i thought um wha? great guy otherwise though! I think the econom plays a part, why bother dating and getting involved with someone if you can barely afford to keep yourself together, just because something worked out for someone doesn't mean it will work out for you cue the endless stories of "when my wife and I got married in 1964 in Toledo..." unless you think this is 1964 in Toledo then sure...

[cinepro]

There have been times in my marriage when I played video games a little too much. I've since quit, almost cold turkey (almost). While she does appreciate it, my wife does sometimes allude to something else I do on Saturday nights that is a commensurate waste of time, but I have no idea what she's talking about.

[Tacenda]

There have been times in my marriage when I played video games a little too much. I've since quit, almost cold turkey (almost). While she does appreciate it, my wife does sometimes allude to something else I do on Saturday nights that is a commensurate waste of time, but I have no idea what she's talking about.

So true, but I've no idea what your talking about either. Edited February 17, 2013 by Tacenda

[Duncan]

There have been times in my marriage when I played video games a little too much. I've since quit, almost cold turkey (almost). While she does appreciate it, my wife does sometimes allude to something else I do on Saturday nights that is a commensurate waste of time, but I have no idea what she's talking about.

SNL has gone down hill since the mid 90's, tragic

[CV75]

And this is where I get to the application of the Restored Gospel. I believe the LDS Church has healthy and correct teachings about women, and that boys and men in the Church will do well if they adhere to those teachings.

I would jointly blame the “natural man” and the “natural woman” for any societal downgrading. It seems that the root of all this is pride and contention which discourage proper repentance and forgiveness of one another. Those whose “eye be evil” seem to find each other, and those whose “eye be single” likewise (and the latter repent and forgive each other). Those whose "eye be evil" seem to struggle, causing the pendulum swing between the extremes of chauvinism and feminism, while those whose "eye be single" have a more grounding influence.

[LT123]

Incentives, incentives, incentives. Besides religious motivations, there is no reason for a male to grow up, get a good job and start a family. In fact, I would advise any non religious man to stay single. While so-cons and traditionalists have been focused on ssm, they've seem not to have noticed that the existing institution of marriage is a contract where the partner who brakes it (usually cupcake) gets cash, prizes, and the kids while the one who kept it (usually the manboy) gets stuck with the bill.

It's a better bet to do business with Bernie Madoff.

Edited February 17, 2013 by LT123

[Rivers]

This same issue was addressed by Elder Christopherson in the most recent priesthood session of general conference.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/10/brethren-we-have-work-to-do?lang=eng

Edited February 17, 2013 by Rivers

[LT123]

Men are just playing according to the new rules. Can't blast them for that. If we are going to judge them by the old standards got to do the same with the women.

Without authority there cannot be responsibility. That authority is pretty much gone. The guys can live on their own terms.

[Questing Beast]

I wonder at times if I was young and starting out now, would I be that interested in marriage? When I was looking for the girl to marry it wasn't ever a question, I was out to get married and she would be like my mom and be a homemaker and have a bunch of children by me. What I was supposed to do job-wise hardly figured into it, because I knew everything would work out as long as I stayed on course in the Church, etc. I was naive, but I was also faithful to that paradigm all through the child-rearing years, now almost at an end. The world has altered considerably since I started my marriage and family.

Yes, women are largely fed a pile of harmful nonsense about IDing vis-a-vis men. And the reverse is true, men are no longer supposed to even aspire to support a family on their own, the idea is a foreign concept today.

If I was looking for a wife today it would not be with the expectation that she'd be happy to stay home and raise the kids while I worked every day to provide. And I'd think a long time before bringing children into it....

[Judd]

SNL has gone down hill since the mid 90's, tragic

Amazing. I've been saying this since the mid 90s and until now nobody has agreed. Maybe even early-mid nineties as anything post 96ish was bad. Or maybe it all was terrible and I view the past favorably for sentimentality.

[BCSpace]

"Where Have All The Good Men Gone?"

They've all been locked up, taken out of circulation, by NFMH (Non Feminist Mormon Housewives).

[Hamba Tuhan]

They've all been locked up, taken out of circulation, by NFMH (Non Feminist Mormon Housewives).

I wish! I'm a hard-working, responsible, debt-free man. I keep a clean house, cook nutritious meals, do my own car maintenance, etc. I like kids and enjoy spending time with them. I have zero aversion to nappy changing or cleaning up spew. I've held a temple recommend my entire adult life. I serve in the bishopric, take youth to seminary every morning, and do 100% of my home teaching each month. I'm completely devoid of temper. I like to laugh, play card games and board games, swim in virtually any body of water, cave, camp, etc. I have never owned a gaming system in my life, nor have I owned a TV. My most expensive personal 'indulgence' is making the 600km return trip to the temple each month. Whatever it is that single LDS women want, I don't have it.

[volgadon]

They've all been locked up, taken out of circulation, by NFMH (Non Feminist Mormon Housewives).

You forgot to add "every one."

[bu11fr0g]

I wish! I'm a hard-working, responsible, debt-free man. I keep a clean house, cook nutritious meals, do my own car maintenance, etc. I like kids and enjoy spending time with them. I have zero aversion to nappy changing or cleaning up spew. I've held a temple recommend my entire adult life. I serve in the bishopric, take youth to seminary every morning, and do 100% of my home teaching each month. I'm completely devoid of temper. I like to laugh, play card games and board games, swim in virtually any body of water, cave, camp, etc. I have never owned a gaming system in my life, nor have I owned a TV. My most expensive personal 'indulgence' is making the 600km return trip to the temple each month. Whatever it is that single LDS women want, I don't have it.

you don't like to talk about your weaknesses == this is very hard on a real relationship

[The Nehor]

I took my sister out to dinner last night. No idea where the rest are.

[Hamba Tuhan]

you don't like to talk about your weaknesses == this is very hard on a real relationship

I'm confused. Is talking about one's weaknesses or not talking about one's weakness the wrong/hard thing? What's a 'real relationship'? As opposed to what? And what makes you think I don't like to talk about my weaknesses? I suspect my long-suffering ward could correct you on that one ... and add a fair bit to the conversation.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[urroner]

Amazing. I've been saying this since the mid 90s and until now nobody has agreed. Maybe even early-mid nineties as anything post 96ish was bad. Or maybe it all was terrible and I view the past favorably for sentimentality.

More Cowbell - April 8, 2000

http://www.funnyordi...more-cowbell-hd