John Dehlin And Faith Reconstruction

[volgadon]

It is the picking and choosing and selectivity that bothers me.

That is a human ailment found in us all. Scientists, I hear, suffer from it, too.

It is the denigrating of other truths that are true that bothers me. It's like I have seen posted elsewhere the Mormon interpretation is If your church changes its apostasy, when my church changes its revelation.

The idea of apostasy is unauthorised change.

[blackstrap]

Why not publish the essay now? Clear up the whole mess? Are you beholden to some instruction not to publish the essay? I mean, if you aren't going to publish, why not just stop talking about it? And if you are going to publish, why not just say when?

The essay is not Dan's to publish as he wishes.

[Daniel Peterson]

Why not publish the essay now?

There are some considerations that require attention.

Clear up the whole mess?

I have no illusions that messes would cease with its publication, but it would be nice to put an end to certain silly and baseless speculations.

Are you beholden to some instruction not to publish the essay?

No, not really.

I mean, if you aren't going to publish, why not just stop talking about it?

I never talk about it, except in response to falsehoods propagated when others talk about it.

And if you are going to publish, why not just say when?

I'll say when if and when I know when.

[mfbukowski]

We are all humans and humans have human foibles, even prophets and apostles.

One man's patriot is another man's terrorist. It's just the way we are- we seen everything from OUR point of view not understanding that there really ARE others.

[The Grimace]

I never talk about it, except in response to falsehoods propagated when others talk about it.

Is there wisdom in silence? From what I can tell, one side speculates about what may be in the essay, the other side claims they are wrong but produces no evidence. Perhaps silence until publication would be an approach that would, at the very least, offer balm to the soul.

All board nannies are being removed.

[Scott Lloyd]

Is there wisdom in silence? From what I can tell, one side speculates about what may be in the essay, the other side claims they are wrong but produces no evidence. Perhaps silence until publication would be an approach that would, at the very least, offer balm to the soul.

If you are directing this to Daniel, it seems you are preaching to the choir.

It is hardly fair to expect one side to remain silent while the other is indulging in wild speculation and rumor. Even the most forgiving and charitable of people I have ever encountered would not allow falsehood to remain unchallenged.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[ttribe]

Regarding Dehlin's return, just a thought:

"Come on, dear brother, since the war is past,

For friends at first, are friends again at last." - Joseph Smith to WW Phelps upon the latter's return to fellowship.

[Calm]

If you are directing this to Daniel, it seems you are preaching to the choir.

It is hardly fair to expect on side to remain silent while the other is indulging in wild speculation and rumor.

And there are a number of sincere posters and friends who are also curious. To remain completely silent would be ignoring them and leaving them wondering if there is an answer but no one was paying attention. This way those who are sincere know the situation better even if some questions remain unanswered.

[ERayR]

Regarding Dehlin's return, just a thought:

"Come on, dear brother, since the war is past,

For friends at first, are friends again at last." - Joseph Smith to WW Phelps upon the latter's return to fellowship.

And prayers that he is sincere.

[Senator]

Regarding Dehlin's return, just a thought:

"Come on, dear brother, since the war is past,

For friends at first, are friends again at last." - Joseph Smith to WW Phelps upon the latter's return to fellowship.

No, no. He's got sum splain'en to do!!

[ttribe]

No, no. He's got sum splain'en to do!!

I suspect that's the purview of: 1) his family; 2) his immediate ecclesiastical leaders; and 3) none of us sitting on a message board.

[Louis Midgley]

Calmoriah and Scott Lloyd have it exactly right. And if Grimace wants to know what is in Greg Smith's essay, he can try listening to an interview that can be found on something called, I believe, Mormon Expressions. The Larsons (John and Zilba, I believe) did with Dehlin. He is now calling this the low point of his decent into darkness that began twenty years ago when he was finishing up at BYU. Greg Smith only deals with the most recent manifestations of, from my perspective, the unfortunate path Dehlin has chosen to take. I am genuinely hoping that Dehlin has chosen this time not merely to shift gears or pause and then later fire up the engines of darkness again. He has done this several times already. I hope he is not just fabricating a new way of packaging the poison. And hence I fully agree with the sentiment expressed by "ttribe" above which he sent out in the words of Joseph Smith concerning his relationship with W. W. Phelps. Let us all both hope and pray that Dehlin now genuinely wants to sing the song of redeeming love..

[Daniel Peterson]

Is there wisdom in silence?

Sometimes. But not always.

At this very moment, for example, an elaborate but fundamentally misconceived narrative is being worked out on another board, based on a few pieces of misinterpreted evidence for which they don't know the full context, about how and why my dismissal from the Maxwell institute went down.

I don't post on that board -- several years of participation there proved the futility of trying to reason with its particular population -- but I can now see that I'm probably going to have to write up a full account of the matter and put it on the public record somewhere. Otherwise, I leave myself vulnerable to the accounts of others who both know little and bear me ill will.

From what I can tell, one side speculates about what may be in the essay, the other side claims they are wrong but produces no evidence.

On many of the points that have been at issue here, I don't need to cite "evidence." I have first-hand knowledge that claims that are being made about me and others, and specifically about the paper, are flatly untrue.

Perhaps silence until publication would be an approach that would, at the very least, offer balm to the soul.

Much more likely, it would simply allow the story to be told by ill-disposed persons who create it out of essentially nothing.

When it's your name and your public reputation that's at stake, feel free to take your own advice.

[cinepro]

Calmoriah and Scott Lloyd have it exactly right. And if Grimace wants to know what is in Greg Smith's essay, he can try listening to an interview that can be found on something called, I believe, Mormon Expressions. The Larsons (John and Zilba, I believe) did with Dehlin. He is now calling this the low point of his decent into darkness that began twenty years ago when he was finishing up at BYU. Greg Smith only deals with the most recent manifestations of, from my perspective, the unfortunate path Dehlin has chosen to take. I am genuinely hoping that Dehlin has chosen this time not merely to shift gears or pause and then later fire up the engines of darkness again. He has done this several times already. I hope he is not just fabricating a new way of packaging the poison. And hence I fully agree with the sentiment expressed by "ttribe" above which he sent out in the words of Joseph Smith concerning his relationship with W. W. Phelps. Let us all both hope and pray that Dehlin now genuinely wants to sing the song of redeeming love..

21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Matthew 18

[Daniel Peterson]

We're to be both "wise as serpents" and "harmless as doves."

I take that to mean that we're supposed to be loving and forgiving, but not stupid or gullible.

.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Daniel Peterson

[Louis Midgley]

Responding to "ttribe" above, he could manipulate his Stake President. The most never published, but reviewed by perhaps dozens of those asked to referee it, as well as by now several dozen others, does describe his efforts to manipulate his Stake President. If one is bent on doing that, it does not seem to me to be wise to be blabbing about it on the internet. But when you see yourself as "saving the world," and as a very important person, and so forth, All of us have been tempted and troubled by hybris (or hubris). What I mean is insolence or the urge, just this once or twice or three times, to violate what we know (or sort of know or should have know but did not really want to know) is a moral rule or divine command).

My wife and I sent one half day a week visiting a prison where we met with LDS (actually former LDS, as they often pointed out to me) and non-LDS, where we discussed in detail Elder Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness. We heard their stories. All we could ever say was "for the grace of God" we could have been in the same mess. We pitched in and found ourselves confessing our own struggles and doubts and temptations. All of them showed remarkable courage in describing in sometimes very painful how they got themselves into the mess they were in and how they remained deeply troubled by the real harm they had done to others. They worried constantly how they could ever possibly ease the pain they had caused others. One fellow wrote many hundreds of letters begging others to forgive him.

But miracles happen. Once we arrived at that prison and a couple who had just come from visiting someone came rushing up to us and kissed us and so forth. They had, they said, heard much about us. How? The young fellow who had done something naughty to their daughter had been required to meet with all of those he had harmed and confess everything, including what led him to do whatever he had done. And in one of these required sessions, he had gone on and on about the Church. He explained how he had broken covenants and so forth. Without going into more details, what this couple told us is that his confession and appeal for their mercy had been a remarkably powerful first missionary message for them. They had been impressed with the LDS version of the gospel and had invited the missionaries to teach them, but they had already decided that they were going to become genuine Latter-day Saints. My wife and I stood there after they had departed and told each other that it was worth our going to a foreign land for two years to hear this amazing story. Or to hear the version of this story from the mouths of the victims of sin. We had already heard that young fellow both manifest and tell of his own passion to return to God. And even there in his prison garb confessing his sins to his own family and to those he had deeply harmed, he was a powerful witness to the love,mercy and love of God. The one who does not forgive has, I believe, a larger problem than the one who has done some harm. The only thing we talked about for have a day for two years was turning to or returning to the Lord--that is. repentance.

I must add that those fellows told the Midgleys that our own confessions seemed really petty when compared to what they had yielded to. But we just did not see it their way at all. Our problems loomed large to us, even or especially wearing missionary badges.

I very much regret not being able to get official permission to take Professor Peterson into that prison with us. I very much wanted him to witness the wonders we were able to experience.

I took photos of that couple we met in that parking lot. I have gotten them out to have a look in an effort to remember one of the vast number to times I have encountered in the weak things of this world the workings of the Holy Spirit.

[ttribe]

Dr. Midgley -

I'm not sure how that is a response to me really, but I don't think it justifies the online mob mentality that (collectively) seems to think the judgment of Bro. Dehlin's immediate ecclesiastical leaders ought to be suborned to their Internet wisdom. If our system of Judges in Israel is so easily manipulated as to require it being countermanded by the participants of a message board, then it seems (to me, anyway) that we have bigger problems than whether John Dehlin is sincere in his return to full activity in the Church.

[Tacenda]

I think John and the whole gang of mormons that found hidden warts in the church just want the church to come clean just as we are taught to do when we sin. We are told the steps of forgiveness is to say sorry to those we've hurt and never do that wrong again. And maybe thanks somewhat to John, it looks like slowly and surely the church will.

I really love what Dr. Midgley wrote about the man who was in prison for hurting his daughter and Dr. Midgley and his wife said how they are sinners too and feel the pain of that. I guess everyone just sins differently as Pres. Uchtdorf has so eloquently said. We're all sinners and that's why we count on the Lord's atonement so much.

[Libs]

President Uchtdorf has become a favorite Apostle of mine. He is such a sweet soul.

[Louis Midgley]

Dr. Midgley -

I'm not sure how that is a response to me really, but I don't think it justifies the online mob mentality that (collectively) seems to think the judgment of Bro. Dehlin's immediate ecclesiastical leaders ought to be suborned to their Internet wisdom. If our system of Judges in Israel is so easily manipulated as to require it being countermanded by the participants of a message board, then it seems (to me, anyway) that we have bigger problems than whether John Dehlin is sincere in his return to full activity in the Church.

If there are problems with our system of Judges in Israel, it has to be primarily the result of jerks to fib, don't you think? And there is really no way short of repentance that can fix the problem. So kids and adults, for example, go on missions without disclosing gave sins that probably should disqualify them to represent the Lord. And, of course, every problem is huge if it gets in the way of someone genuinely coming to sing the song of redeeming love.

[Scott Lloyd]

If there are problems with our system of Judges in Israel, it has to be primarily the result of jerks to fib, don't you think? And there is really no way short of repentance that can fix the problem. So kids and adults, for example, go on missions without disclosing gave sins that probably should disqualify them to represent the Lord. And, of course, every problem is huge if it gets in the way of someone genuinely coming to sing the song of redeeming love.

While there may be unusual occasions when the spiritual gift of discernment allows a priesthood leader to detect when someone is lying about worthiness or other things, my hunch is that in the vast majority of cases, those who are disposed to lie will succeed in doing so. Otherwise the principle of moral agency would be countermanded.

I don't see this as being a flaw in the "system of judges in Israel," so much as the forbearance of a just God who sees the end from the beginning.

Antagonists and critics have made much of the fact that high-level Church leaders were not immediately able to spot Mark Hofmann for the fraud and criminal he was. I think it can be explained in terms of the above.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[ttribe]

If there are problems with our system of Judges in Israel, it has to be primarily the result of jerks to fib, don't you think? And there is really no way short of repentance that can fix the problem. So kids and adults, for example, go on missions without disclosing gave sins that probably should disqualify them to represent the Lord. And, of course, every problem is huge if it gets in the way of someone genuinely coming to sing the song of redeeming love.

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm a little slow, but what does that have to do with a group of people on the Internet feeling obliged to criticize this man and question his sincerity? Should we not, first, allow the established ecclesiastical process to play itself out? Or, are we so confident that we "know better" than his leaders so as to compel us to speak out here on a public forum?

You are on a message board that exists for people to discuss public people and events. Board nannying is not appropriate and you are now on the growing list of those removed for hijacking the thread with sermons. For those who remain if you think a poster is behaving badly report them instead of lecturing them.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Antagonists and critics have made much of the fact that high-level Church leaders were not immediately able to spot Mark Hofmann for the fraud and criminal he was. I think it can be explained in terms of the above.

Based on personal experience, one may have a very strong impression that another is lying, but as a general rule it is wrong to act on that impression -- or lob accusations -- until one has proof, for the same reason you outlined above.

[Scott Lloyd]

Based on personal experience, one may have a very strong impression that another is lying, but as a general rule it is wrong to act on that impression -- or lob accusations -- until one has proof, for the same reason you outlined above.

But there are times when, for the sake of one's own welfare or that of others whom one cares about, preliminary judgments must be made before all the facts can be known. Conceivably, (and I'm speaking hypothetically here) that might include urging wariness about prominent individuals who have shown a talent in the past for drawing large followings but who themselves have been unstable in their own faith.

[blackstrap]

Many years ago a divorced lady with several children began dating a gentleman who had ,to my personal knowledge,a reputation for being less than reliable. He made a good show of going to church and even the temple etc. but was not ' firm ' in the faith. I considered speaking to the lady about my knowledge but refrained, thinking that the man might have repented and it was not my right to judge. Their relationship led to marriage fairly quickly and within a few months the lady discovered the true face of this man and they were subsequently divorced. Perhaps if I had spoken up ,I might have saved this lady and her young family a lot of pain.

Therein lies the quandry. Sometimes withholding judgement can be unwise.