Alan Posted January 23, 2013 Posted January 23, 2013 (edited) As an Englishman I confess to having superficially heard of this development in SLC, and that the church was involved financially, but it is difficult to get at the truth from 6,000 miles away.So I have some questions.1. What was the reason for the development?2. How much did the church invest?3. What did the development entail? (I know there is a Mall, but I also heard something about apartments)4. Does the Mall operate on a Sunday?5. Is it nice?6. Any other information you think relevant Edited January 23, 2013 by Alan
Walden Posted January 23, 2013 Posted January 23, 2013 The Wiki page for City Creek is accurate in it's description of this development, and includes financial figures for the building of the center and the financial ties to the LDS church......http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Creek_CenterLike most of SLC, I believe that it is closed on Sunday (I've only been there once, on a Saturday, and yes, it is a nice complex, as far as malls go).
DavidB Posted January 23, 2013 Posted January 23, 2013 (edited) There is a website for the citycreek center. The mall is promoted using adverts with alcohol and females dressed in attire that does not match Church standards; so I am very surprised that it is closed on Sundays. Edited January 23, 2013 by DavidB
Calm Posted January 23, 2013 Posted January 23, 2013 (edited) The Wiki page for City Creek is accurate in it's description of this development, and includes financial figures for the building of the center and the financial ties to the LDS church......http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Creek_CenterLike most of SLC, I believe that it is closed on Sunday (I've only been there once, on a Saturday, and yes, it is a nice complex, as far as malls go).Iirc, it was recently voted the number 1 mall in the US but I don't know what the criteria were.http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=23733940. Not just in the US, the Americas. Edited January 23, 2013 by calmoriah
Calm Posted January 23, 2013 Posted January 23, 2013 There is a website for the citycreek center. The mall is promoted with alcohol and females dressed in attire that does not match Church standards; so I am pretty sure it is open on Sunday.And you would be wrong: http://www.shopcitycreekcenter.com/hours
Tacenda Posted January 23, 2013 Posted January 23, 2013 (edited) Dbl Edited January 23, 2013 by Tacenda
Tacenda Posted January 23, 2013 Posted January 23, 2013 (edited) Just the restaurant's are open on Sunday and yes they sell or rent apartments/condos. My daughter works for this arm of the church. I did hear that business is down as far as retail, but that could be rumour. Edited January 23, 2013 by Tacenda
pmccombs1 Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 1. What was the reason for the development?To "strengthen" the downtown. That is to say, to make a good impression on tourists that come to visit church HQ.2. How much did the church invest?Between 1 and 2 billion USD.3. What did the development entail? (I know there is a Mall, but I also heard something about apartments)Yes, condominiums in addition to the shopping mall and restaurants, plus parking.4. Does the Mall operate on a Sunday?No.5. Is it nice?Oh yes. In our business ventures, we take no half measures.6. Any other information you think relevantLet's go shopping!
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 To "strengthen" the downtown. That is to say, to make a good impression on tourists that come to visit church HQ.I think protecting the environs of Church headquarters and the SLC Temple from urban decay/blight might be a more apt description. 3
mfbukowski Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) Not to mention making money. There's nothing wrong with investing tithing moneys in such a way as to produce the highest return and triple net real estate, with no debt and high end anchors is about one of the best investments you can get in these rotten times. Edited January 24, 2013 by mfbukowski 2
Sky Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 It's a nice, well thought out, brand new shopping center. There is nothing cheap about it. "Lavish" is not too strong of a word to describe it. It's pedestrian friendly. Only in Salt Lake City can you do some family history research, go to a free Mormon Tabernacle Choir concert rehearsal, and then take a short walk over to the shopping center to get a bottle of perfume or purchase some new garments or get a bite to eat or whatever. So I think it's kinda a neat place. And there is plenty there that non-Mormons can appreciate, too.
tyler90az Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 There is a website for the citycreek center. The mall is promoted using adverts with alcohol and females dressed in attire that does not match Church standards; so I am very surprised that it is closed on Sundays.It is a business venture used with funds from the business arm. The purpose is to make more money, which is a good thing. They already know LDS people are going to be their, "let's go shopping." That means they only need to advertise to non-lds.
Tacenda Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I love the cheesecake factory, first time going there. And was surprised they had stores that weren't "Rodeo Drive". (I heard someone say that about the stores so I had to include that). I think they'd (Salt Lake)like it to be a more urban feel there. I forgot to mention there is even a gym and pool as part of the condos I believe. Could be apartments though. Right smack dab at the mall. Before I went there people commented their'd be a dress standard,yada yada, but people were wearing whatever. No policing of that going on.
Freedom Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 My understanding is that no tithing money was used.
DavidB Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 It is a business venture used with funds from the business arm. The purpose is to make more money, which is a good thing. They already know LDS people are going to be their, "let's go shopping." That means they only need to advertise to non-lds.I agree. There isn't anything I can think of in the Doctrine or Gospel that prohibits a good steward from gaining an increase off the wants of others; well subject to some limitation. But over all, it is interesting that the mall is promoted to an obvious non-LDS crowd yet still closes on Sunday. Though perhaps the alcohol and immodest woman are meant to promote restuarants rather than the mall it self.
tyler90az Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I agree. There isn't anything I can think of in the Doctrine or Gospel that prohibits a good steward from gaining an increase off the wants of others; well subject to some limitation. But over all, it is interesting that the mall is promoted to an obvious non-LDS crowd yet still closes on Sunday. Though perhaps the alcohol and immodest woman are meant to promote restuarants rather than the mall it self.I wonder if it is possible non-lds "leaders" of the mall decided to promote that way? Another possibility is specific companies paid for the advertisements?Would be interesting to know more details on that.
Alan Posted January 24, 2013 Author Posted January 24, 2013 Thank you for your responses.What is the difference between an apartment and a Condo?On the general point, I admit to being rather concerned about this development. I understand the desire to make downtown SLC a nicer place, but a shopping Mall? Is that really the way to do it?I have been to SLC. I have to admit to being quite underwhelmed by the experience. It did need smartening up. But I have also been to Rome, the Vatican to be more precise. I cannot imagine the Catholic church developing a nearby shopping mall to try to improve the image of the church or tidy up a run down area.$2billion! We have been waiting for new windows for our chapel for 7 years. Seven years ago we were told they would be fitted the following year. The old ones are rotting and dangerous. Some of them won't shut.Every year we have been told that we can't have the promised new windows because there is no money. Now I see why.
Tacenda Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) Thank you for your responses.What is the difference between an apartment and a Condo?On the general point, I admit to being rather concerned about this development. I understand the desire to make downtown SLC a nicer place, but a shopping Mall? Is that really the way to do it?I have been to SLC. I have to admit to being quite underwhelmed by the experience. It did need smartening up. But I have also been to Rome, the Vatican to be more precise. I cannot imagine the Catholic church developing a nearby shopping mall to try to improve the image of the church or tidy up a run down area.$2billion! We have been waiting for new windows for our chapel for 7 years. Seven years ago we were told they would be fitted the following year. The old ones are rotting and dangerous. Some of them won't shut.Every year we have been told that we can't have the promised new windows because there is no money. Now I see why.http://citycreeklivi...your-questions/http://www.apartment...UT-84101-271267A condo is much like a home in that you purchase it outright but will usually pay a condo/maintenance fee for upkeep that surrounds the condo like a pool, lawn, street etc. Usually a little nicer than an apartment. Though during my youth my family lived in an apartment turned condo. During the early 80's alot of apartments were turned into condos. My dad bought back when they were alot cheaper and bought our condo for $30,000.00 where now it's worth far more. Does this help?Also, I'm sorry your ward is going through that with the building not getting what it needs. That's frustrating, I know, our ward needed copier's because the one that was in the library was incredibly slow, and the Stake copier was taken and was needed in the Stake Presidencies offices. So alot of people were using their own money, myself included to go to a copy center and print off what was needed because the Library copier had a limit to how many were allowed on Sunday.ETA: There's a podcast about the church and it's business side if you're interested, on Mormonstories where Daymon Smith is interviewed for his book "The Book of Mammon" he is apparently an active LDS member. http://mormonstories...rch-and-mammon/ if you don't have time to listen to all of the podcasts, I think the last two are the nitty gritty ones. The first two are a history of the church more or less. Edited January 24, 2013 by Tacenda
Sky Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Thank you for your responses.What is the difference between an apartment and a Condo?On the general point, I admit to being rather concerned about this development. I understand the desire to make downtown SLC a nicer place, but a shopping Mall? Is that really the way to do it?I have been to SLC. I have to admit to being quite underwhelmed by the experience. It did need smartening up. But I have also been to Rome, the Vatican to be more precise. I cannot imagine the Catholic church developing a nearby shopping mall to try to improve the image of the church or tidy up a run down area.$2billion! We have been waiting for new windows for our chapel for 7 years. Seven years ago we were told they would be fitted the following year. The old ones are rotting and dangerous. Some of them won't shut.Every year we have been told that we can't have the promised new windows because there is no money. Now I see why.As Tanenda said, a condo is a living space that you buy, or own. An apartment is a living space that you rent. I'm not sure why the windows in your chapel have not been replaced yet, but I think the Church could more than afford it. I don't think the mall has anything to do with it. Perhaps it is more of a local issue than a church-wide issue? I dunno. But I hope they get replaced soon. Maybe that is a concern you could approach your bishop or stake president with? I'm just throwing out ideas. As far as the wisdom in building the mall in the first place, I hope that over time, the shopping center will have proven its worth. Sometimes that takes a few years. It is still getting established. But the mall is here to stay. But it's not something that only benefits the Church, but the entire city of Salt Lake City and the State of Utah, and regardless of whether or not you are LDS. So I do hope that the place proves to be a success over time.
blackstrap Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 The money a ward receives is generally based on attendance.
Alan Posted January 24, 2013 Author Posted January 24, 2013 Maybe that is a concern you could approach your bishop or stake president with? I am the Bishop!
Teancum Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 AlanDon't question the wisdom of the mall here. You may find the experience unpleasant. But you are right to question. Significant funds were used. At least 2 billion dollars and some estimates are more even up to 5 billion though who spent the total amount is not clear because the church did not fund 100 percent of the project. So the question about whether this is a wise and proper use of sacred funds is important to ask. Now many will state that the church says no tithing dollars were used. That may be true. But we have no way to know because the churh does not disclose financial data. But it really does not matter where the funds came from. Money is fungible. All funds the church has ultimately started with donations from members. All funds are available to use to carry out is mission. So to wonder if this will help the church carry out its mission is a fair question. And it is fair to debate it. My opinion is it will not and was an extravagant investment that will be a burden on the finances of the church for sometime. We may be seeing this already as the church has continually cut back on local facility employees and out more on its members. The church has also pushed for more church service missionaries where it can get services through volunteers that normally would be paid for. And now the chip uch is laying off employees in Salt Lake. Are these connected? Hard to say for sure but I think it is suspect.Further to use such a large amount of funds to benefit a very small part of the church seems wrong as well. Look I have no problem with the church making reasonable and conservative investments to protect itself for financial downturns. The past has shown it was a problem when the church did not do this. But a high end mall from a church that teaches its member to avoid materialism? And one in a geographic area that is only a few miles always from the upscale Gateway mall that was built around the time of the SLC Olympics? And unfortunately the mall was started just before a major economic downturn. Malls in general are not doing well. Real estate has not faired well since 2007/2008. It seems a high risk proposition. I thought it shameful when the LDS leaders at the ribbon cutting ceremony all shouted out "Let's go shopping!". Really? This from the Church that claims to be the church of him who said go and sell all you have and give to the poor. Seems rather in your face of such teachings,I am sure my comments will not be well accepted here.
Deborah Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Every year we have been told that we can't have the promised new windows because there is no money. Now I see why.This would have nothing to do with the mall as church maintenance is paid by tithing.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 As an Englishman I confess to having superficially heard of this development in SLC, and that the church was involved financially, but it is difficult to get at the truth from 6,000 miles away.So I have some questions.1. What was the reason for the development?2. How much did the church invest?3. What did the development entail? (I know there is a Mall, but I also heard something about apartments)4. Does the Mall operate on a Sunday?5. Is it nice?6. Any other information you think relevantWe do want we do to continue to have the funds to grow the Church, feed the hungry. It is not to makes rich to pay clergy.As far as when they are open, they are commercial developments...we don't own them like a Church OT Temple?
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