City Creek From 6,000 Miles Away

[Bart Burk]

[media=]

Have you ever considered that some of the profit that comes from building that mall might generate income that can be used to transform the lives of the poor? Maybe the mall will provide jobs that will keep people from becoming poor. If we took all of the money from the wealthy and spent it on the poor, the poor would probably still be there in a year, but there would no longer be any money to give them.

[Deborah]

Alvino's video is deceitful because it doesn't tell the whole story. The church does a great deal of humanitarian work throughout the world. The funds for the mall are totally separate from the humanitarian and welfare funds of the church. Furthermore the mall was an investment in the downtown area which was becoming very rundown. I hated to go there because it was so bad. They had to do something to build up the environs surrounding the Temple. This is the center of the church and has many visitors and we needed a safe and clean environment for those visitors to come to.

[Questing Beast]

Hugh Nibley's grandfather was in the first presidency and okayed the bar in the basement of the Hotel Utah (since converted to the Joseph Smith Memorial building), to help pay for the expenses of building the hotel. "Make ye friends of the children of Mamon" was one of Jesus' bits of wisdom to the believers living in a material world. But there will always be critics of anything a religion decides to do with its resources.

(edit to add: president Nibley also told his grandson Hugh, on one occasion, that if an angel came in the room, that Charles W. Nibley would go "right out that window", indicating the window of his room in the Hotel Utah, overlooking Main Street. So Charles apparently was uneasy at the end of his life about his lifetime of speculation, anti-conservationist Oregon Lumber Company business practices (which included paying off Gov't inspectors), and perhaps his decision about the bar, among other things....)

Edited January 24, 2013 by Questing Beast

[juliann]

I have never seen critics of how other people spend their money use available data or facts, such as the rather important one that the church is working with another company and does not even own or control all of the property.

I would be interested in the opinions of the financial managers critics....how should the church have protected its business holdings that ensure its financial security? And no, giving it all away isn't an option unless that is what you did with your family's savings and investments.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_integrity/City_Creek_Center_Mall_in_Salt_Lake_City

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_finances/City_Creek_Center

Money for the project is not coming from LDS Church members' tithing donations. City Creek Center is being developed by Property Reserve Inc., the church's real-estate development arm, and its money comes from other real-estate ventures.

- Doug Smeath, "Downtown renovation project", Deseret News March 27, 2007.

The 5 billion dollar figure refers to the cost of the entire Salt Lake City downtown redevelopment project, referred to as "Downtown Rising." The City Creek Center cost $1.5 Billion. Other projects include the following:

• Utah Performing Arts Center
  
• Frank E. Moss Federal Courthouse
  
• Six Gateway
  
• Questar Corporate Headquarters
  
• Jessie Eccles Quinney Center For Dance and Capitol Theatre Renovation
  
• Public Safety Building
  
• Public Market
  
• Convention Center Hotel
  
• Utah Theater
  
• City Creek
  
• Gallivan Plaza
  
• Harmons City Creek
  
• The Leonardo
  
• 222 South Main
  
• O.C. Tanner
  

[juliann]

I am the Bishop!

That made me chuckle. Over here, our ward maintenance is controlled by some mysterious entity that just comes in and does stuff.....apparently on some schedule that doesn't always match need. We had really nice curtains in the RS after the ward was built. One Sunday a few years later, we come in to see these ugly gray shiny polyester curtains with a fluffy valance thing that would have been at home in a funeral parlor. They didn't even match. I suspect that individual problems are not dealt with on a timely schedule though...complaints about maintenance issues are not uncommon, at least online.

Edited January 24, 2013 by juliann

[Tacenda]

Have you ever considered that some of the profit that comes from building that mall might generate income that can be used to transform the lives of the poor? Maybe the mall will provide jobs that will keep people from becoming poor. If we took all of the money from the wealthy and spent it on the poor, the poor would probably still be there in a year, but there would no longer be any money to give them.

What about the poor in other countries, people that might just need a lift up and take on from there. Poor people might just need clean water and be able to live and not die. City Creek is in your face anti what Jesus wants our (you and I)money spent on (expensive clothing, jewelry,etc.). Thank goodness it doesn't come from current tithes, but it did come from the original pioneer stock. But the church was able to turn that money into alot of money. What we need here is more money spent for humanitarian means. As a whole the church could do better if you look at the stats. Other than that, yes it does a pretty good job.

[Buzzard]

I grew up in SLC. Back in the early 70's, to put it lightly, downtown Salt Lake was a dump. I saw hookers two blocks from Temple Square. The church took on the challenge making sure that downtown Salt Lake would not suffer the same fates as a lot of other downtown areas. City Creek is just the latest. The Triad Center, the church buildings outside of Temple Square like the Conference Center, Museum, Family History and Church History Buildings, the Eagle Gate condominiums, the list could go on and on. Some were directly developed by the church, some were developed by others but with the church cheerleading. Bottom line is that the downtown core of Salt Lake City is one of the most vibrant-and safe-inner cities around. Even the secular, politically liberal types who inhabit most of SLC proper enjoy the fact that they can stroll from bar to bar unmolested.

To be sure, there are still bad parts of town, and some low-end housing along with their lower income inhabitants were displaced for some of these projects. And the church took heat for that, as well.

For those who say that the money should have been spent on the poor, I would say that this is apples and oranges. The church spends a lot of resources to care for the poor, but wants to make darn sure that no visitors to Temple Square ever gets mugged. Both goals are admirable and need not be mutually exclusive.

[Teancum]

This would have nothing to do with the mall as church maintenance is paid by tithing.

How do you know that? Have you seen the church's financials?

[juliann]

What about the poor in other countries, people that might just need a lift up and take on from there. Poor people might just need clean water and be able to live and not die. City Creek is in your face anti what Jesus wants our (you and I)money spent on (expensive clothing, jewelry,etc.). Thank goodness it doesn't come from current tithes, but it did come from the original pioneer stock. But the church was able to turn that money into alot of money. What we need here is more money spent for humanitarian means. As a whole the church could do better if you look at the stats. Other than that, yes it does a pretty good job.

Considering what the pioneers did to get to SLC, after all they suffered through the years, I seriously and I mean seriously doubt that they would object to their money building a financially strong church. There is a box you can check on your tithing slip. You can donate all of your savings and investments to humanitarian efforts....and 100% of it will go to those efforts Why aren't you doing that? Why do you expect others to do it instead? It is a serious question.

[juliann]

How do you know that? Have you seen the church's financials?

Have you? Why should everyone adopt the position all of the information being given out (which you have not even acknowledged) is total fabrication? Especially when the IRS is involved? If that is the case, that is a much more critical problem than how they manage investments so why waste time on the project rather than the fabricating?

[Deborah]

How do you know that? Have you seen the church's financials?

Unlike some people I actually believe the First Presidency when they say no tithing funds went into this project, though quite frankly I wouldn't care if they did as it is no longer my stewardship once I pay it.

[Tacenda]

Juliann, I would if I knew of a surety that it would get there. The new tithing slips express this:“Though reasonable efforts will be made globally to use donations as designated, all donations become the Church’s property and will be used at the Church’s sole discretion to further the Church’s overall mission.”

I have tried to spend more on charity in the last couple of years, for instance I paid for a child to have cleft palate surgery and it felt great to know I could help one child.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Tacenda

[Teancum]

Have you? Why should everyone adopt the position all of the information being given out (which you have not even acknowledged) is total fabrication? Especially when the IRS is involved? If that is the case, that is a much more critical problem than how they manage investments so why waste time on the project rather than the fabricating?

.

Obviously no I have not seen the financials. Nor did i say the info was complete fabrication. Dont put words in my mouth thank you. And I noted I don't know either way what the church does with its money or how the church mangages it's money. I also noted I have no issue with prudent conservative investments. In fact the churhc would be foolish not to build up assets to protect it for down times and to use such resources for its operations as it sees fit.

As for the money not coming from tithing I did not say that was not true. I said that money is fungible so it does not matter. The church has a big pot of money and can do whatever it wants with it as far as funding its operations. Short in one place? Well take a surplus from a other place. The tithing slip even tells you the church can use your donation for whatever it wants to even though you may put it in one category or another.

[Calm]

Poor people might just need clean water and be able to live and not die.

http://www.lds.org/library/page/display/0,7098,6212-1-3216-1,00.html (probably out of date)

[tyler90az]

What are non-members like in Utah? Would they intentionally avoid going to mall for any reason? I could see that happening, which pretty much kills the mall.

[Tacenda]

http://www.lds.org/library/page/display/0,7098,6212-1-3216-1,00.html (probably out of date)

Good to know I wonder if the church could conquer this and world hunger!

[DavidB]

What are non-members like in Utah? Would they intentionally avoid going to mall for any reason? I could see that happening, which pretty much kills the mall.

The nonmembers have horns, and on fullmoons they turn into demons and tempt and haunt members.

[BlueDreams]

What are non-members like in Utah? Would they intentionally avoid going to mall for any reason? I could see that happening, which pretty much kills the mall.

Why would the avoid going to the mall??? And from what I can tell the few times I visited, I don't see anyone really avoiding it.

With luv,

BD

[omni]

What are non-members like in Utah? Would they intentionally avoid going to mall for any reason? I could see that happening, which pretty much kills the mall.

Yes there are, I see it all the time on the Salt Lake Tribune's comments section and had a co worker tell me he's boycotting the mall. Of course they could be just spouting off to show there nomo bona fides...in any sense I believe those who are doing this are a small minority.

[Deborah]

What are non-members like in Utah? Would they intentionally avoid going to mall for any reason? I could see that happening, which pretty much kills the mall.

I have apostate family members who avoid it because they are just incensed that the church would help sponsor something like this.

BTW they are apostate because they adhere to the Church of Brigham Young and when I told them about all the business enterprises he and Joseph Smith were involved in, well it's just not the same.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Deborah

[Atomic Punk]

People who avoid going to the mall because of Mormon involvement are bigots. They will always be with us. Pretty sad.

[Tacenda]

My MIL isn't one to shop there. Her mode of shopping, which isn't often would be the D.I. (Deseret Industries). She didn't say it in so many words but I could tell she was a little disappointed about the mall. She is the most frugal person I know. And she and FIL have a church trust fund that when they die will go to the church.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Tacenda

[Questing Beast]

The mall is crammed with stores. There is no Mormon bent in evidence anywhere. As already mentioned, the investors were non Mormons too, so it isn't a "Mormon mall". If any non Mormons refuse to go to the City Creek Center because the LDS Church is behind it in a big way, they are being stupid and would be happier living somewhere else....

[omni]

The mall is crammed with stores. There is no Mormon bent in evidence anywhere. As already mentioned, the investors were non Mormons too, so it isn't a "Mormon mall". If any non Mormons refuse to go to the City Creek Center because the LDS Church is behind it in a big way, they are being stupid and would be happier living somewhere else....

I've always wondered what would have happened if instead the investors had been a group of atheists or gays, etc. I don't think there would have been much controversy, I would presume the vast majority of LDS would be thrilled to have a group invest billions of dollars into the economy, creating jobs, improving the city and all without any tax subsidy.

[wolfcall]

mostly people are upset with what the church did with its strict rules around the church (a dress policy for a sidewalk) but nobody really cares either way for the mall there are a few small petty groups but a mall is a mall and shopping is shopping.