City Creek From 6,000 Miles Away

[Tacenda]

Alvino, you say you're not a believer, is that just in the church or God too, if you don't mind me asking?

[Alvino]

Because not being a believer you're requesting this be explained purely on intellectual terms. It would make as little sense to leave out the spiritual component in the discussion as it would for you to surrender all intellect and enter discussion in only spiritual terms. I don't neglect the intellect nor would I tease apart the spiritual. If you're only wanting to discuss the intellect of a spiritual matter, to where do we find common ground to exchange ideas?

i.e. you're requesting an appeal to reason alone This is perfectly fine, but about as appropriate as me requesting an appeal to authority alone, though I'm not sure you're seeing that argument as such.

"Reason alone" is a simplistic idea I don't subscribe to nor aspire to subscribe to. Bring the spiritual as much as you find necessary to explain things; I'll grant most of them and we'll find common ground, I assure you.

There is nothing in my approach opposed to your beliefs, though. You could, at the end of the day, say that as far as your best mental efforts go, my approach is better than Christ's though because Christ is God you'll go with His. It is the most surprising thing to see that religious people are often so stubborn to reason about their cherished beliefs when they, at the same time, accept the doctrine that there will be things that will go outside of reason but that are correct.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Alvino

[Alvino]

Alvino, you say you're not a believer, is that just in the church or God too, if you don't mind me asking?

No Gods, churches, afterlives, spirits, etc.

[Sky]

The unbelievers are the ones that tend to have the biggest problem with the Church building a mall. "The mall" is only the latest in their laundry list of offenses, or things they dislike about some aspect of Mormonism or the Church. But the mall issue is something that seems to stick with a lot of people, including many members..."Oh my gosh, the Church built a mall instead of using the money to help the poor, this is appalling and unacceptable..." Or "oh my gosh, look at how much money was spent and all these advertisements of immodest women." Or these old chestnuts used by our most harsh and unforgiving critics..."the great and spacious mall", or "the jesus mall."

I guess I've just grown tired of all the bickering about it from ex-Mormons. It doesn't seem to matter how many times some people might try to point out any potential positive aspects, or try to engage in a more rational and reasoned discussion about it; it always goes back to "why would the Church do such a shameful or terrible thing?" or "couldn't the money have been used elsewhere?"

I'm sorry if this is rude, but I say if you want to know what the Church is doing to help the poor around the world, go visit Welfare Square or a Bishop's Storehouse.

But if you're in Salt Lake City and like to shop, why not take advantage of it and enjoy it? There is a place for helping the poor, and there is a place for going shopping, and yes, even getting a little pleasure or satisfaction from going shopping. Beyond that, the mall is a place where people will work and make a living for themselves.

The LDS Church won't tolerate decrepit buildings and urban decay surrounding its world headquarters and most sacred structures. The former Crossroads Mall and ZCMI Center were nice in their time, but they were 1970's-1980's style malls, and were heading towards the dustbin.

So, the underlying issue to me, in a nutshell, is not with the mall. It's really with whether or not we trust in and sustain our church leaders.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Sky

[DavidB]

"couldn't the money have been used elsewhere?"

It is a tired statement and was so from when Judas asked the same question.

[Alvino]

"couldn't the money have been used elsewhere?"

It is a tired statement and was so from when Judas asked the same question.

(again)

Right. Because a shopping mall is a direct offering to Jesus.

[Maidservant]

give tithing even when you can't feed your family?

Just using this as a jump point, I know it got into a bigger issue with several people not just you.

But in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in the individual wards, there should be NOBODY who can't feed their family.

100 percent of people who cannot feed their family SHOULD be being fed from the Bishop's Storehouse and DIRECTLY supported in other items, such as if they need employment training. If the Bishop is aware of needs, there should be NOBODY who doesn't receive this kind of support.

In the past, tithing was in-kind items brought to the storehouse. Then if someone else needed it, they could have it from the storehouse. It is part of the operation of the covenant. It's a process of consecration.

If a person is paying tithing, it is a covenental act; and they have a right, covenantally, to the Bishop's Storehouse as needed. So to say that the Lord will take care of them is not just some "miraculously, some time in some way", it is the RIGHT to the Storehouse. It is immediately and concretely applicable.

I'm not saying that what is in the Storehouse can't be shared with non-tithe payers or non-members. I hope this happens. I'm not saying tithe payers get first dibs. But I'm saying that the scenario where a person who pays tithing, can't feed their family simply CAN'T BE SO, covenentally speaking (due to the failure of man I'm sure it happens). It's a moot point that simply cannot exist at all in "God's economy". And that God did not create the principle of tithing singly, but only in connection WITH the Storehouse. This is deliberate not accidental on God's part. Tithing and Storehouse are two sides to the same coin.

I am a single mom and constantly struggle financially, but I have often received financial supports of some nature over time from the wards we have lived in. When I felt bad for accepting, ashamed that I needed help, I have been told at least upon one occasion, reminded that I pay my tithes and offerings and that this is how it is supposed to work.

We also have a joke around here, my sisters-in-law and I. When our car is on the last leg and there doesn't seem any human reason why the contraption is still running (yet we can't afford new), we laugh and call them our tithing cars. They aren't running on gas or engines, they are running on tithing.

I am aware that tithing goes to the more central church and the funds which come back are used for Ward Budgets (which I consider myself a beneficiary of). But the principle is still active.

I am excited to belong to an organization that has the power to create cities and the power to have the energy of money subject to them so that they could create as they will. I consider this godly.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Maidservant

[Tacenda]

Just using this as a jump point, I know it got into a bigger issue with several people not just you.

But in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in the individual wards, there should be NOBODY who can't feed their family.

100 percent of people who cannot feed their family SHOULD be being fed from the Bishop's Storehouse and DIRECTLY supported in other items, such as if they need employment training. If the Bishop is aware of needs, there should be NOBODY who doesn't receive this kind of support.

In the past, tithing was in-kind items brought to the storehouse. Then if someone else needed it, they could have it from the storehouse. It is part of the operation of the covenant. It's a process of consecration.

If a person is paying tithing, it is a covenental act; and they have a right, covenantally, to the Bishop's Storehouse as needed. So to say that the Lord will take care of them is not just some "miraculously, some time in some way", it is the RIGHT to the Storehouse. It is immediately and concretely applicable.

I'm not saying that what is in the Storehouse can't be shared with non-tithe payers or non-members. I hope this happens. I'm not saying tithe payers get first dibs. But I'm saying that the scenario where a person who pays tithing, can't feed their family simply CAN'T BE SO, covenentally speaking (due to the failure of man I'm sure it happens). It's a moot point that simply cannot exist at all in "God's economy". And that God did not create the principle of tithing singly, but only in connection WITH the Storehouse. This is deliberate not accidental on God's part. Tithing and Storehouse are two sides to the same coin.

I am a single mom and constantly struggle financially, but I have often received financial supports of some nature over time from the wards we have lived in. When I felt bad for accepting, ashamed that I needed help, I have been told at least upon one occasion, reminded that I pay my tithes and offerings and that this is how it is supposed to work.

We also have a joke around here, my sisters-in-law and I. When our car is on the last leg and there doesn't seem any human reason why the contraption is still running (yet we can't afford new), we laugh and call them our tithing cars. They aren't running on gas or engines, they are running on tithing.

I am aware that tithing goes to the more central church and the funds which come back are used for Ward Budgets (which I consider myself a beneficiary of). But the principle is still active.

I am excited to belong to an organization that has the power to create cities and the power to have the energy of money subject to them so that they could create as they will. I consider this godly.

Maidservant I didn't say that, maybe you got me confused with Teancum. Or someone else like Alvino he said:The question to you, Bart, is the following: With regards to the City Creek spending, does that seem in accordance with the spiritual attitude that you should give tithing even when you can't feed your family? Do you think I'm justified in NOT paying my tithing and save it for 5 years to invest it to probably have better returns in the future and give more to the Church? .

Edited January 25, 2013 by Tacenda

[Maidservant]

Maidservant I didn't say that, maybe you got me confused with Teancum. Or someone else.

Okay, sorry, I must have erased the wrong quotes with the wrong name, sorry . I will edit.

[Tacenda]

Okay, sorry, I must have erased the wrong quotes with the wrong name, sorry . I will edit.

No prob!

[Tacenda]

Just now watching the video that Alvino posted, wow, this might make me step back again into my crisis. Must turn head and keep walking!

Edited January 25, 2013 by Tacenda

[tyler90az]

The nonmembers have horns, and on fullmoons they turn into demons and tempt and haunt members.

Mock on

-

I think people underestimate the amount of people who would avoid the mall. Undoubtedly, anti-mormons and apostates would avoid the mall. Even your buddy next door who does not believe in the church, for the simple fact it is the LDS mall. You are kidding yourself if everybody in SLC does not consider that the Mormon Mall.

[BlueDreams]

Just now watching the video that Alvino posted, wow. This might make me step back again into my crisis. Must turn head and keep walking!

It's kinda true (what bart said NOT the video*). In International development, there's multiple theories about how to deliver aid. Much of what has occurred for the last century has been largely ineffectual because it's often been throwing money at the problem (plus aid that's largely self serving in purpose for the donor nation). Charity/donations are far more effectual if they are self-sustaining, participatory with the community at large to decide the direction of the program, flexible in implementation, and carefully funded/executed. It's not as glamorous as a bono run, but it's more likely to have a lasting effect. Development is a messy complicated field. Giving to the poor isn't the end all be all to the word charity. Which is one of the things that I like about the Church humanitarian work. They're very careful about their programs, to make sure that they're sustainable and have a long-lasting effect in the people they give to and work with. Their areas are well research, carefully design, within areas they know they can make a difference in, often coordinated with other well-respected charity organizations, heavily participatory with the grassroots for coordination and implementation, and monetarily effective. When I have enough to give, I'm happy to give to the church because of what I've come to know of their programs gives me complete confidence that my money will be carefully used and actually reach its intended beneficiaries.

So, there: crisis averted

With luv,

BD

*I found the video ridiculous, irrational, hypocritical, and with little useful substance. It's paints a picture too extreme to show any accuracy of the actual subject of poverty, tithing, or church funds in general....or heck, even the mall. Think of it this way: what are you wearing today? Me, I'm wearing a sweater (that I bought at a mall) a shirt (that I bought at another strip mall). Just because I'm wearing this doesn't mean I've directly harmed some child in Africa or snubbed the poor of the world. It's a balance (I'm also wearing jewelry from fair-trade, swap meets, and local artisans....of course one of the artisans was on a dole hawaii plantation, so there goes that)

Edited January 25, 2013 by BlueDreams

[tyler90az]

No Gods, churches, afterlives, spirits, etc.

That is cool Alvino I have been their

I wonder how you ended up on this board? It is that spirit you do not believe in that drew you to this board, it is real. You may say you have come to learn about us or mock us, but why have you stayed? Are you not drawn to this board for reaons that are hard to explain? Are you drawn to the spirit and/or community?

Trying to explain spiritual feelings and "things" is impossible, like trying to explain how much you love your child. You can only know how much parents love their children when you have one. Similarly, you can only know the greatness of spirituality and community we experience until you try it. We are not relying on the argument of authority to persuade people to join the gospel, you are instructed to pray for yourself and find out. If you truly desire to learn about us go to two sources God through prayer and the scriptures.

There is a place for you in this church Alvino, for anyone. You can truly be a, "fellow citizen in Christ." God loves you, think about that as if it were true(since you do not believe), the creator of everything loves you. You can either accept that love or run from it. Just know that God will never stop trying to give you eternal life.

https://www.lds.org/...shall-fail-them

Edited January 25, 2013 by tyler90az

[Tacenda]

It's kinda true. In International development, there's multiple theories about how to deliver aid. Much of what has occurred for the last century has been largely ineffectual because it's often been throwing money at the problem (plus aid that's largely self serving in purpose for the donor nation). Charity/donations are far more effectual if they are self-sustaining, participatory with the community at large to decide the direction of the program, flexible in implementation, and carefully funded/executed. It's not as glamorous as a bono run, but it's more likely to have a lasting effect. Development is a messy complicated field. Giving to the poor isn't the end all be all to the word charity. Which is one of the things that I like about the Church humanitarian work. They're very careful about their programs, to make sure that they're sustainable and have a long-lasting effect in the people they give to and work with. Their areas are well research, carefully design, within areas they know they can make a difference in, often coordinated with other well-respected charity organizations, heavily participatory with the grassroots for coordination and implementation, and monetarily effective. When I have enough to give, I'm happy to give to the church because of what I've come to know of their programs gives me complete confidence that my money will be carefully used and actually reach its intended beneficiaries.

So, there: crisis averted

I know and agree, just want more, more, more!!! We have made a difference but can't wait to see the difference all over!

[tyler90az]

Just now watching the video that Alvino posted, wow, this might make me step back again into my crisis. Must turn head and keep walking!

It appears the video has been taken down. According to what BlueDreams posted about the video I can help you. Fresh out of a class dealing with international aid/development. Go to your internet history and send me link through private message.

[Alan]

Just using this as a jump point, I know it got into a bigger issue with several people not just you.

But in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in the individual wards, there should be NOBODY who can't feed their family.

100 percent of people who cannot feed their family SHOULD be being fed from the Bishop's Storehouse and DIRECTLY supported in other items, such as if they need employment training. If the Bishop is aware of needs, there should be NOBODY who doesn't receive this kind of support.

In the past, tithing was in-kind items brought to the storehouse. Then if someone else needed it, they could have it from the storehouse. It is part of the operation of the covenant. It's a process of consecration.

If a person is paying tithing, it is a covenental act; and they have a right, covenantally, to the Bishop's Storehouse as needed. So to say that the Lord will take care of them is not just some "miraculously, some time in some way", it is the RIGHT to the Storehouse. It is immediately and concretely applicable.

I'm not saying that what is in the Storehouse can't be shared with non-tithe payers or non-members. I hope this happens. I'm not saying tithe payers get first dibs. But I'm saying that the scenario where a person who pays tithing, can't feed their family simply CAN'T BE SO, covenentally speaking (due to the failure of man I'm sure it happens). It's a moot point that simply cannot exist at all in "God's economy". And that God did not create the principle of tithing singly, but only in connection WITH the Storehouse. This is deliberate not accidental on God's part. Tithing and Storehouse are two sides to the same coin.

I am a single mom and constantly struggle financially, but I have often received financial supports of some nature over time from the wards we have lived in. When I felt bad for accepting, ashamed that I needed help, I have been told at least upon one occasion, reminded that I pay my tithes and offerings and that this is how it is supposed to work.

We also have a joke around here, my sisters-in-law and I. When our car is on the last leg and there doesn't seem any human reason why the contraption is still running (yet we can't afford new), we laugh and call them our tithing cars. They aren't running on gas or engines, they are running on tithing.

I am aware that tithing goes to the more central church and the funds which come back are used for Ward Budgets (which I consider myself a beneficiary of). But the principle is still active.

I am excited to belong to an organization that has the power to create cities and the power to have the energy of money subject to them so that they could create as they will. I consider this godly.

The welfare resources of the church come from fast offerings, not from tithing. So the Bishop's storehouse system you discribe may have worked that way in the past, but not now; even monetarily.

I find that when people come to me for assistance, it is a very difficult thing for them to do. Maybe it's pride, maybe just privacy, or perhaps fear. But they come reluctantly in most cases. I hate to see them going through this discomfort. They apologise repeatedly and often appear to consider themselves to be failures, perhaps even second class Saints. In my view this is unsatisfactory, but i don't know what to do about it. I am also quite sure that some do not come because of this. They can't face it. But then they feel guilty because they literally cannot afford to pay their tithing. No parent would really pay their tithing and watch their children go without food. In fact, the scriptures tell us that anyone who would choose not to feed his family is worse than an infidel.

One of the responsibilities of a Bishop is to "seek out the poor and needy", but I don't really know how to do this. It is nearly always the needy seeking me out! Therefore, I feel I am not fulfilling my responsibilities because some keep quiet and struggle and I don't know about it.

I wonder if the Saints would now live the law of consecration, and whether it is possible in the current babylonian economic system we are forced to live under. I feel it is possible in theory. Everyones salary would be paid directly to the church, and all needs would be met from church funds.

This would work well for me and most of my ward. I think the wealthy would struggle with it though.

[tyler90az]

The welfare resources of the church come from fast offerings, not from tithing. So the Bishop's storehouse system you discribe may have worked that way in the past, but not now; even monetarily.

I find that when people come to me for assistance, it is a very difficult thing for them to do. Maybe it's pride, maybe just privacy, or perhaps fear. But they come reluctantly in most cases. I hate to see them going through this discomfort. They apologise repeatedly and often appear to consider themselves to be failures, perhaps even second class Saints. In my view this is unsatisfactory, but i don't know what to do about it. I am also quite sure that some do not come because of this. They can't face it. But then they feel guilty because they literally cannot afford to pay their tithing. No parent would really pay their tithing and watch their children go without food. In fact, the scriptures tell us that anyone who would choose not to feed his family is worse than an infidel.

One of the responsibilities of a Bishop is to "seek out the poor and needy", but I don't really know how to do this. It is nearly always the needy seeking me out! Therefore, I feel I am not fulfilling my responsibilities because some keep quiet and struggle and I don't know about it.

I wonder if the Saints would now live the law of consecration, and whether it is possible in the current babylonian economic system we are forced to live under. I feel it is possible in theory. Everyones salary would be paid directly to the church, and all needs would be met from church funds.

This would work well for me and most of my ward. I think the wealthy would struggle with it though.

My FIL is a Branch President and he told me help is not strictly for tithing members. That he helps anbody who comes to him. With a condition that they help out at church or something else. A bishop or branch president does not just preside over members but the whole area.

As far as I know.

[tyler90az]

The welfare resources of the church come from fast offerings, not from tithing. So the Bishop's storehouse system you discribe may have worked that way in the past, but not now; even monetarily.

I find that when people come to me for assistance, it is a very difficult thing for them to do. Maybe it's pride, maybe just privacy, or perhaps fear. But they come reluctantly in most cases. I hate to see them going through this discomfort. They apologise repeatedly and often appear to consider themselves to be failures, perhaps even second class Saints. In my view this is unsatisfactory, but i don't know what to do about it. I am also quite sure that some do not come because of this. They can't face it. But then they feel guilty because they literally cannot afford to pay their tithing. No parent would really pay their tithing and watch their children go without food. In fact, the scriptures tell us that anyone who would choose not to feed his family is worse than an infidel.

One of the responsibilities of a Bishop is to "seek out the poor and needy", but I don't really know how to do this. It is nearly always the needy seeking me out! Therefore, I feel I am not fulfilling my responsibilities because some keep quiet and struggle and I don't know about it.

I wonder if the Saints would now live the law of consecration, and whether it is possible in the current babylonian economic system we are forced to live under. I feel it is possible in theory. Everyones salary would be paid directly to the church, and all needs would be met from church funds.

This would work well for me and most of my ward. I think the wealthy would struggle with it though.

Bishop, thanks for sharing and truly loving your ward members!

Theoretically, home teachers are in place to watch over the people of the ward. They should report to you any needs. The HT should have a relationship established where they can get that information. Then you could door bell drop a box of food or something, since they are ashamed. Maybe you could also give a talk about how to not be ashamed of needing help. I do not ask people for help so I know how they feel. It must be the pitfall of pride.

I am still trying to learn the most effective way to put up chairs, so take my advice with that in mind.

[BlueDreams]

It appears the video has been taken down. According to what BlueDreams posted about the video I can help you. Fresh out of a class dealing with international aid/development. Go to your internet history and send me link through private message.

The video is on the first page...it's still there.

[Deborah]

I wonder if the Saints would now live the law of consecration, and whether it is possible in the current babylonian economic system we are forced to live under.

In the days of my poverty I used to joke that I'd be better of to live under the law of consecration because by the time I paid tithing and bills I had nothing left anyway. Of course we never had to do without food and even getting some utilities paid.

Having said that the Law of consecration has never been rescinded. We are expected to help the poor with our excess. Unfortunately people think they no longer have a responsibility to do this once they pay their usually meager fast offerings.

[Deborah]

When I first saw the drawings of the proposed mall the thought that went immediately through my mind was that we were preparing for the Savior to come by making such a beautiful structure. Have you ever read of any description of heaven that did not describe gold and jewells and great beauty and wealth. The Lord doesn't intend the saints to live in huts but wants them to live in beauty and the finest quality. Our temples are places of great workmanship and quality. Even a humble home can be made beautiful. I think those who decry such enterprises do not see the big picture and certainly don't understand that the glory of God is not impoverishment but beauty and wealth where all can share and benefit. Even in the times when the church members fully lived the law of consecration, they were successful because they had prosperity and all could share in it. I really think that the reason the United Order failed in the pioneer church is because they did not have the prosperity where all could truly benefit as they needed.

[Tacenda]

When I first saw the drawings of the proposed mall the thought that went immediately through my mind was that we were preparing for the Savior to come by making such a beautiful structure. Have you ever read of any description of heaven that did not describe gold and jewells and great beauty and wealth. The Lord doesn't intend the saints to live in huts but wants them to live in beauty and the finest quality. Our temples are places of great workmanship and quality. Even a humble home can be made beautiful. I think those who decry such enterprises do not see the big picture and certainly don't understand that the glory of God is not impoverishment but beauty and wealth where all can share and benefit. Even in the times when the church members fully lived the law of consecration, they were successful because they had prosperity and all could share in it. I really think that the reason the United Order failed in the pioneer church is because they did not have the prosperity where all could truly benefit as they needed.

I think there is a problem here in Utah with keeping up with the Jones's. And our high bankruptcy cases. The mall just feeds that, sorry.

[ERayR]

calmoriah said:

Perhaps, but in this case they would be able to feed their family. I really don't understand how you could be arguing this when it is clear from the article and the context of the story that the point was one of faith even when one sees no way out. IOW, give even when you can't feed your family... God will provide.

Then you disagree with the bishop. Let's say you really have no way of paying tithing and feeding your family. Should you trust in the Lord and pay or be prudent and not pay tithing? "Put me to the test" says the Lord. What sayest thou?

That she was willing to sacrifice the well-being of her children for God is the wrong way to go for me. I think it is immoral to ask that of anyone and it is immoral to not instruct people that it is wrong. Once Christ knew she was going to give the money, then he should have told her that that was enough; that he had seen her good intentions but that she shouldn't put in such jeopardy the well-being of herself and her children.

calmoriah said:

which doesn't tell me anything relevant if it is true because you could go either way and accept this as true. One could say testing your faith by having to give when you have very little is for your spiritual good, also.

Same. None of this is in contradiction with anything relevant I've been saying.

It all comes down to whether you want to pay your tithing or not. If you do, pay it. If you don't then don't pay it but stop with the vocal self justification.

[mfbukowski]

My understanding is that no tithing money was used.

Yes I want to correct that if I said otherwise. I said it sloppily. It is my understanding that no tithing money was used either, but the "interest" derived therefrom.

So what we are talking about in plain terms is the interest on the interest.