Witness For The Plates Vs. Witnesses For Resurrection

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Rob,

I don't know how you can say such things and still hold yourself up as an honest person. You are purposely leaving out some important points in your false claim that you have never taught or have never heard EV's say Mormons don't believe in Christ.

Sure you may say they believe in "Christ", but for you he is "a Christ" who is not the same being the "the Christ" that you claim to worship. So, yes, you do in fact teach that Mormons do not believe in Jesus.

Being completely honest in your interactions would go a long way. But from years of interacting with you and watching your shinnanigans, I can see that is a hopeless dream to think you would do anything but skirt the pure truth. But seeing as Walter and Hank are your mentors, I can't say I am too entirely stunned.

Edited December 28, 2012 by BookofMormonLuvr

[cdowis]

Rob,

Please do a google on "jesus mormon false"

Take special notice of http://C***.org/mormon-beliefs, among the web sites. Read what it says in large bold letters.

Then check out the other web sites. You can do a little song and dance, but "Mormons are not Christian" is another way to say that they do not believe in Christ.

Edited December 28, 2012 by cdowis

[mfbukowski]

Rob,

Please do a google on "jesus mormon false"

Take special notice of http://C***.org/mormon-beliefs, among the web sites. Read what it says in large bold letters.

Then check out the other web sites. "Mormons are not Christian" is another way to say that they do not believe in Christ. You can try to fool us but it won't work.

You don't have to go that far.

In an article on Mormonism on Rob's OWN WEBSITE which I am not permitted to link to, because it contains temple content, there is an article attempting to refute Stephen Robinson's defense of Mormonism, and some of the headings on that article are:

Is the Mormon God the Christian God?

And

Is the Mormon Jesus the Christian Jesus?

I can't link to it- but if you search for Rob's organization- found in his signature line- and look for the anti-Mormon stuff, and that Stephen Robinson article- it is right there, bold as can be.

[mfbukowski]

"Well, I am a practicing Catholic, and I have no problem supporting Obama. How can you support a Mormon who does not believe in Jesus Christ...."

http://www.catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=47821&wf=rsscol

[thesometimesaint]

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/testimonies-of-him/articles/we-testify-of-jesus-christ

[Vance]

You twisted the conversation around by asserting that I am an "unbeliever" without qualifying your statement to make explicit your preferred narrower meaning.

I "twisted" nothing. I simply used your term in a different context.

Your statement not only doesn't apply to me, it doesn't apply to any evangelical critics of Mormonism.

That isn't believable nor credible.

You just gave your own rhetorical game away. The use of the words "underlying message" is a tacit admission that evangelical critics of Mormonism do not actually say that Mormons do not have a belief in Christ.

Of course, they back pedal when confronted, just like you do. The intention is simply to paint Mormons as a group the believes in that salvation comes through something or someone other than Jesus Christ. But when confronted, the back pedalling begins.

[Vance]

Wait, wait, wait. You are claiming that evangelical critics of Mormonism do not argue that Mormons do not believe in Christ? You better tell that to the many evangelical critics of Mormonism I have come in contact with, who continually make that exact argument.

Are you going to believe Bowman, or your lying ears?

[Vance]

Every book and article by an evangelical that addresses this issue that I have ever seen makes the point that Mormons do not believe in Christ as he is presented in the Bible, Christ as he is understood in orthodox Christianity.

You do realize most evangelical never write a book or an article.

Every single one. I have never seen or heard an evangelical say that Mormons don't believe in Jesus at all.

You must not get out much.

[Gervin]

Rob,

Please do a google on "jesus mormon false"

Take special notice of http://C***.org/mormon-beliefs, among the web sites. Read what it says in large bold letters.

Then check out the other web sites. You can do a little song and dance, but "Mormons are not Christian" is another way to say that they do not believe in Christ.

Many evangelicals make a distinction between "Christianity" and belief in Christ. Here, for example:

The Rev. Franklin Graham, president and CEO of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, expressed a similar view about Romney and his Mormon faith in a recent interview with MSNBC.

Asked whether Romney was a Christian, Graham said no.

“Most Christians would not recognize Mormons as part of the Christian faith,” Graham said.

“They believe in Jesus Christ. They believe in a lot of other things, too, that we don’t accept theologically.”

http://www.newsmax.c...02/29/id/431034

Edited December 29, 2012 by Gervin

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa,

Sigh. You didn't answer my question.

Can you remind me what it was...nice diversion however.

[Rob Bowman]

go_utes01,

You wrote:

What standard and am I attempting to hold you to that I am unwilling to hold myself to exactly? I merely explained my personal experience to you. If you want to tell me that I am mistaken in my personal experiences, you can go ahead and make that claim. A quick search found this quote: "Mormonism truly denies the Jesus of the Bible, because they deny the essentials of his identity. Just like the people of Jesus' day, the Mormons deny the historic reality of who Jesus really was and what he did.

This is exactly what I have been telling you. Evangelicals take the position that Mormonism denies the true Jesus, not that Mormonism does not have some belief in Jesus. They get wrong who he really is. Mormon prophets and apostles have said the same about orthodox Christians.

You wrote:

× Marshall Almarode XXX-XXX-XXXX

I have X'd out the phone number and reported your post, because I don't think you should be posting someone's phone number, even if for some reason he posted it somewhere.

You wrote:

To me, that quote looks to be saying that Mormons deny the historic reality of who Jesus really was and what He did - seems like an evangelical claiming that Mormons deny Jesus. This guy teaches seminars about Mormon beliefs - if an evangelical went to one of these (or a friend/relative did), and saw/heard this quote - I don't think it would take a large leap for that individual to come to the conclusion about Mormon beliefs that I have experienced, i.e. that Mormons deny Jesus. Is my conclusion unfounded? Could be. Do some evangelicals teach/believe that Mormons deny Jesus? Could be.

I've explained this clearly enough already. Evangelicals maintain that Mormons deny essential truths about Jesus, not that Mormons deny that Jesus existed or that Mormons have some kind of faith in Jesus as they understand him.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Rob Bowman

[Rob Bowman]

BookofMormonLuvr,

You wrote:

I don't know how you can say such things and still hold yourself up as an honest person.

I could say the same thing about you, but what good would it do?

You wrote:

You are purposely leaving out some important points in your false claim that you have never taught or have never heard EV's say Mormons don't believe in Christ.

We shall see what evidence you provide for this accusation.

You wrote:

Sure you may say they believe in "Christ", but for you he is "a Christ" who is not the same being the "the Christ" that you claim to worship. So, yes, you do in fact teach that Mormons do not believe in Jesus.

That's it? But I have already made this point in different words. The claim that I rejected is the claim that evangelical critics of Mormonism supposedly teach that Mormons don't have any sort of belief in Jesus at all. I clearly stated that evangelicals, and this includes me, maintain that Mormonism teaches false doctrine on essential matters concerning Jesus. In this sense Mormons don't believe in the true or real Jesus, as we evangelicals see it. But this doesn't mean that we absurdly think you don't profess belief in Jesus, or that you don't accept the existence of Jesus of Nazareth as historical fact, or that you don't believe Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave.

Answer me this: Do you honestly think that evangelical critics of Mormonism teach that Mormons don't believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave? Yes or No, please.

You wrote:

Being completely honest in your interactions would go a long way. But from years of interacting with you and watching your shinnanigans, I can see that is a hopeless dream to think you would do anything but skirt the pure truth. But seeing as Walter and Hank are your mentors, I can't say I am too entirely stunned.

You ought to know enough about me, after "years" of interaction with me and observing me in action, to know that the above statement is itself far from "completely honest" or the "pure truth." In fact, it is an out and out falsehood. I worked for Walter Martin for five years and rarely saw him during that time (and not at all during the last year). I strongly disagreed with Martin then about a number of significant issues. He was in no sense my mentor. As for Hank Hanegraaff, I was actually kicked out of the organization by his doing, as he and I had serious conflict over a number of important matters. This is a matter of public record, so I can only assume that if you know those two men were my employers that you also know that what I have just said is true. But just in case somehow you missed these facts, now you can show us all that you are sincerely interested in complete honesty and the pure truth by withdrawing the above comment and humbly acknowledging that what you said was mistaken.

[Rob Bowman]

Charles,

You wrote:

Please do a google on "jesus mormon false"

Take special notice of http://C***.org/mormon-beliefs, among the web sites. Read what it says in large bold letters.

Then check out the other web sites. You can do a little song and dance, but "Mormons are not Christian" is another way to say that they do not believe in Christ.

The web page you yourself cited makes it clear that Mormons do have a belief in Christ, though not a theologically correct or acceptable belief. For example, it provides the following quotation as part of its documentation of the false teachings of Mormonism:

"Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ..." (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).

I see no attempt to hide the fact that Mormonism teaches belief in Christ. Your attempt to misrepresent CARM and other evangelicals in this regard is an amusing "song and dance" as you put it but not to be taken seriously by anyone who can read.

[Rob Bowman]

Mr. Bukowski,

You want to quote our own website against what I said? How ridiculous!

You quote the following subheads from Robert Stewart's article responding to Stephen Robinson:

Is the Mormon God the Christian God?

Is the Mormon Jesus the Christian Jesus?

These subheads actually prove my point. Mormons do have a belief in God and Jesus, but according to evangelicals Mormonism does not have the true, Christian understanding of God or Jesus. His position is that "There are irreconcilable differences between Mormonism and Christianity concerning the nature of Scripture, God, and Jesus Christ." This is exactly what I have been saying is the evangelical view all along!

[Rob Bowman]

Mr. Bukowski,

You provided the following quotation:

"Well, I am a practicing Catholic, and I have no problem supporting Obama. How can you support a Mormon who does not believe in Jesus Christ...."

http://www.catholic....47821&wf=rsscol

First, note that this statement is attributed to a Catholic, not an evangelical.

Second, the statement is actually a script used in Obama phone campaigns as part of an attack on Romney! This has nothing to do with evangelical criticisms of Mormonism.

[Rob Bowman]

Pa Pa,

You wrote:

Can you remind me what it was...nice diversion however.

How silly. You refuse to answer my question, and my pointing this out is a "diversion"?

I'm not going to bother doing your homework for you. You can find the post yourself if you care.

[Tacenda]

Rob, do you mind telling me the differences in our Jesus and yours? I use to think it was because we believe Jesus is our elder brother and you believe he is God incarnate. But this was shot down on this board when my fellow LDS said Jesus is God. Do you see any other differences?

[Rob Bowman]

Tacenda,

You wrote:

Rob, do you mind telling me the differences in our Jesus and yours? I use to think it was because we believe Jesus is our elder brother and you believe he is God incarnate. But this was shot down on this board when my fellow LDS said Jesus is God. Do you see any other differences?

When your fellow LDS say that Jesus is God, they mean something different by "God" than we do. We mean the infinite, transcendent, sole Creator (ex nihilo) of absolutely everything that exists other than himself, who is the only proper object of religious devotion, worship, and prayer. The LDS Church does not believe this description faithfully represents what God is.

Here are the points I list that specify ways in which the LDS doctrine of Jesus differs from the orthodox doctrine in my article on "Mormonism and Jesus Christ." This article is part of my series of articles entitled "Gospel Principles and the Bible."

1. Jesus Christ is just the “firstborn” of God’s billions of spirit children and the first to become a God.

2. Jesus Christ is one of three Gods in the “Godhead,” as is the Holy Spirit.

3. Jesus Christ is not the proper recipient of prayer; we may pray only to the Father in Jesus’ name.

4. Jesus Christ is the “Only Begotten,” which means that he is the only human being whom God the Father literally begat in the flesh. God is Jesus’ father in the flesh and Mary is his mother.

5. Jesus Christ “inherited divine powers from His Father” when he became a human being.

6. Jesus Christ “organized the only true Church” with a system of priesthood “authority” required to teach or baptize others.

7. Jesus Christ suffered to atone for our sins in Gethsemane, bleeding from “every pore.”

8. Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of every human being, guaranteeing resurrection to immortal life in some heavenly kingdom to all, including unbelievers.

9. Jesus Christ “appeared to the Nephites and established His Church in the Americas” shortly after his ascension.

10. Jesus Christ (and God the Father) appeared to Joseph Smith to tell him to join none of the churches because all of them were wrong and their creeds an abomination.

Orthodox Christianity rejects all of the above teachings about Jesus Christ.

[go_utes01]

I see you fail to answer any of my questions. From the many quotes explicitly stating that "Mormons deny Christ," do you think that maybe some evangelicals could possibly get the idea that Mormons deny Christ? And that is the reason I am asked whether or not we believe in Jesus or celebrate Christmas, Easter, etc.? That was the point of my original post. It is becoming excruciatingly clear to me that you are not interested in open, honest dialogue. It seems that almost everybody that has attempted to interact with you in the past has come to the same conclusion. The fact that you worked for Walter Martin - and for five years at that - should be proof enough of your motives. Plus, apparently your website discloses sacred temple ordinances, which is unfortunate. You must be aware that is offensive to members of the LDS faith - apparently decency is not important to you, again that is unfortunate. Fortunately the evangelicals I have have come in contact with have, for the most part, not followed your example.

Edited December 29, 2012 by go_utes01

[mfbukowski]

I see you fail to answer any of my questions.

Get used to it.

[Rob Bowman]

go_utes01,

You wrote:

I see you fail to answer any of my questions.

That's simply not so.

You wrote:

From the many quotes explicitly stating that "Mormons deny Christ," do you think that maybe some evangelicals could possibly get the idea that Mormons deny Christ?

I have already answered this question. Evangelical critics of Mormonism don't say that Mormons "deny Christ" without some context in which their meaning is usually quite obvious, namely, that Mormons deny essential truths about Christ, not that Mormons deny that Christ existed or that he died and rose from the dead. If you can take such online statements out of context, I can easily believe you could do so with statements made privately to you by unnamed evangelicals.

You wrote:

And that is the reason I am asked whether or not we believe in Jesus or celebrate Christmas, Easter, etc.?

Again, I am not privy to these questions you say people ask and don't know for sure what is going on with them. But I can offer a reasonable speculation. There are two religions in America well known for sending people in twos door to door for proselytizing purposes: Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. The Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Christmas or Easter. It is quite likely that some people get the JWs mixed up with the LDS and have a hard time keeping them straight. That's a very likely explanation for the questions about celebrating holidays. As for people asking you if you believe in Jesus, again, I have no context for these anecdotal reports and so don't know what's in their minds. However, I can tell you for a fact that they are not getting the idea that you don't believe in Jesus (at all) from evangelical critics of Mormonism.

You wrote:

That was the point of my original post. It is becoming excruciatingly clear to me that you are not interested in open, honest dialogue. It seems that almost everybody that has attempted to interact with you in the past has come to the same conclusion. The fact that you worked for Walter Martin - and for five years at that - should be proof enough of your motives.

That is an ignorant comment, one borne of prejudice.

You wrote:

Plus, apparently your website discloses sacred temple ordinances, which is unfortunate. You must be aware that is offensive to members of the LDS faith - apparently decency is not important to you, again that is unfortunate. Fortunately the evangelicals I have have come in contact with have, for the most part, not followed your example.

Decency is important to me, but so is truth. I have had lengthy discussions on that topic with Mormons on this forum and I'm afraid we simply disagree on the matter. That doesn't mean I don't care about offending Mormons. It means we at IRR have made a decision as to how to balance our concern for not unnecessarily offending Mormons and our concern for providing information that non-Mormons and those Mormons who have not yet gone through the temple often feel they need. I understand you don't agree with our decision, but if you tried to understand our purpose and perspective you would see that our decision is not one of malice or disregard for Mormons' feelings.

[juliann]

go_utes01,

I understand you don't agree with our decision, but if you tried to understand our purpose and perspective you would see that our decision is not one of malice or disregard for Mormons' feelings.

You really should get out of the religion business and run for political office.

[MiserereNobis]

Well indeed, Rorty himself said that he could worship a God who was a "friend" and not the transcendent Neoplatonic God of the sectarians.

You absolutely must must must read the article I will cite in a moment. Weave into this your knowledge that Mormons worship Man- indeed the Man of Holiness. God is seen as a glorified exalted Being who is ontologically exactly like us- yet infinitely above us. He is one of other gods and together, three who have achieved solidarity of purpose have organized this universe from existing material which is "matter unorganized".

The D&C quotes in numerous places that the savior sees us as "friends" and wants to be regarded himself, as our friend.

With that in mind, you must read this article, and note who the author is and where he comes from. I promise it will be quite enlightening for you.

http://www.firstthin...nd-religion--45

There is much I disagree with Rorty about- the primary area is in his belief in contingency of the individual "self"- I think he contradicts himself there. I think that contradiction ultimately leads to an incorrect understanding of the nature of the individual and subsequently I think the notion of a contingent self must be abandoned. But ultimately it is that idea of a contingent self which leads Rorty down the path toward his liberal politics; on the other hand I think that seeing the individual as ultimately non-contingent in certain ways leads not toward the political left but toward the political right.

But I certainly do not disagree at all with Rorty in his view of neo Pragmatism and what you term "postmodernism" above.

Read that article. You are among the few who hang out here who will really appreciate it. It could be a philosophically important to you as well.

Thanks for the article link. I'm just getting to it now (I missed your post in all the ones that followed).

Carry on

[Tacenda]

Tacenda,

You wrote:

When your fellow LDS say that Jesus is God, they mean something different by "God" than we do. We mean the infinite, transcendent, sole Creator (ex nihilo) of absolutely everything that exists other than himself, who is the only proper object of religious devotion, worship, and prayer. The LDS Church does not believe this description faithfully represents what God is.

Here are the points I list that specify ways in which the LDS doctrine of Jesus differs from the orthodox doctrine in my article on "Mormonism and Jesus Christ." This article is part of my series of articles entitled "Gospel Principles and the Bible."

1. Jesus Christ is just the “firstborn” of God’s billions of spirit children and the first to become a God.

2. Jesus Christ is one of three Gods in the “Godhead,” as is the Holy Spirit.

3. Jesus Christ is not the proper recipient of prayer; we may pray only to the Father in Jesus’ name.

4. Jesus Christ is the “Only Begotten,” which means that he is the only human being whom God the Father literally begat in the flesh. God is Jesus’ father in the flesh and Mary is his mother.

5. Jesus Christ “inherited divine powers from His Father” when he became a human being.

6. Jesus Christ “organized the only true Church” with a system of priesthood “authority” required to teach or baptize others.

7. Jesus Christ suffered to atone for our sins in Gethsemane, bleeding from “every pore.”

8. Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of every human being, guaranteeing resurrection to immortal life in some heavenly kingdom to all, including unbelievers.

9. Jesus Christ “appeared to the Nephites and established His Church in the Americas” shortly after his ascension.

10. Jesus Christ (and God the Father) appeared to Joseph Smith to tell him to join none of the churches because all of them were wrong and their creeds an abomination.

Orthodox Christianity rejects all of the above teachings about Jesus Christ.

I'd appreciate a side by side comparison if you have a minute. Thanks for this response to my question. Edited December 29, 2012 by Tacenda

[cdowis]

Here are the points I list that specify ways in which the LDS doctrine of Jesus differs from the orthodox doctrine in my article on "Mormonism and Jesus Christ." This article is part of my series of articles entitled "Gospel Principles and the Bible."

1. Jesus Christ is just the “firstborn” of God’s billions of spirit children and the first to become a God.

2. Jesus Christ is one of three Gods in the “Godhead,” as is the Holy Spirit.

4. Jesus Christ is the “Only Begotten,” which means that he is the only human being whom God the Father literally begat in the flesh. God is Jesus’ father in the flesh and Mary is his mother.

5. Jesus Christ “inherited divine powers from His Father” when he became a human being.

7. Jesus Christ suffered to atone for our sins in Gethsemane, bleeding from “every pore.”

8. Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of every human being, guaranteeing resurrection to immortal life in some heavenly kingdom to all, including unbelievers.

9. Jesus Christ “appeared to the Nephites and established His Church in the Americas” shortly after his ascension.

10. Jesus Christ (and God the Father) appeared to Joseph Smith to tell him to join none of the churches because all of them were wrong and their creeds an abomination.

Orthodox Christianity rejects all of the above teachings about Jesus Christ.

Rob, these statements both on historic Christian doctrines, and LDS doctrines, need clarification,

For example, #5 is incorrect or deceptive, since Jesus was "before Abraham was, I AM." Jesus was the OT Jehovah. Now, are you saying that historic Christians disagree with that?

#2 Jesus is "one" with the Father, one God, as taught not only in the Bible, but also the D&C and the BOM.

But they are indeed not homoousia, or one substance. Your statement is misoleading when it does not show that distinction. Historic Christians accept the doctrine of one substance, LDS does not. But we accept the doctrine that Christ is "one" with the Father.

Quite frankly, I think you already know this, but don't want to confuse your audience with the facts.

Edited December 30, 2012 by cdowis