Witness For The Plates Vs. Witnesses For Resurrection

[cdowis]

When your fellow LDS say that Jesus is God, they mean something different by "God" than we do. We mean the infinite, transcendent, sole Creator (ex nihilo) of absolutely everything that exists other than himself, who is the only proper object of religious devotion, worship, and prayer. The LDS Church does not believe this description faithfully represents what God is.

Thank you for trying to tell us what we believe, but you are not a reliable source for LDS doctrine, just as the Pharasees were not a reliable source for the teachings of Christ.

God is indeed infinite, transcendent, and the sole Creator. He is the only proper object of religious devotion, worship and prayer. While we may be using the same words, our understanding of those concepts are based on revelation rather than the philosophies of man. We understand why Christ had his own will, but subjected it to the will of the Father -- "not my will, but thy will be done". We understand how Christ did not know when He would return to the earth, that only the Father knows that.

These concepts are beyond the philosophies of man, but available to us thru modern revelation.

Now, it is also true that we do not accept ex nihilo creation which is a teaching of man, and not the scriptures. We believe that Christ as describe3wd in Heb 1 [1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Christ was appointed as the heir and thru that appointment he made all the worlds (no mention of ex nihlio here). We have an understanding of the "oneness" of the Father and Son, and their nature from living prophets that is missing from the philosophies of man, but that understanding is clearly taught in the scriptures. We have an understanding of the eternal nature of matter, and the process of creation.

While your teachings are based on the interpretation of a single book of scripture as seen thru the knowledge and wisdom of man, our understanding is thru modern revelation and living prophets.

Edited December 30, 2012 by cdowis

[cdowis]

OK, I can't help myself, so let's look at our concept of eternity and creation.

There is no beginning, no end, and matter is eternal. The creation process is based on natural laws, and ongoing for eternity in the past and future. This universe is not limited to life here on this earth but contains hundreds of billions of galaxies, full of stars and inhabited planets. This earth is part of that continous process, with no beginning and no end, probably taking billions of years to complete.

I agree that the historic Christian church does not agree with that view. Not sure how all those galaxies and planets fit into that view of the universe, perhaps just ornaments in His grand ex nihilio creation with only this planet as inhabited.

Edited December 30, 2012 by cdowis

[pogi]

Rob, do you mind telling me the differences in our Jesus and yours?

I hope we can all agree that he is the same Jesus for all of us, though our perceptions of him may differ.

[mfbukowski]

OK, I can't help myself, so let's look at our concept of eternity and creation.

There is no beginning, no end, and matter is eternal. The creation process is based on natural laws, and ongoing for eternity in the past and future. This universe is not limited to life here on this earth but contains hundreds of billions of galaxies, full of stars and inhabited planets. This earth is part of that continous process, with no beginning and no end, probably taking billions of years to complete.

I agree that the historic Christian church does not agree with that view. Not sure how all those galaxies and planets fit into that view of the universe, perhaps just ornaments in His grand ex nihilio creation with only this planet as inhabited.

We answer questions they don't even ask.

[cdowis]

I am waiting for someone to point out the Big Bang as proof of the Evangelical view of the universe. I had some guy telling people that Mormonism violated the law of relativity. He got upset when I laughed at that one.

I watched a recent series on Roku, "How the Universe Works". Very interesting when placed into the context of Mormonism. They said that there was a strong possibility of multiple universes, and that the Big Bang may have been caused by a black hole in another universe. A black hole and where does all that matter go that it sucks up.

I look forward to Rob's publication regarding Mormon vs 'Christian' doctrine. Based on his outline here, I think it needs some work before making it public.

Edited December 31, 2012 by cdowis

[Rob Bowman]

Charles,

You wrote:

Quite frankly, I think you already know this, but don't want to confuse your audience with the facts.

Retract this gratuitous swipe at my integrity, and I will answer your substantive criticisms.

[Rob Bowman]

Tacenda,

You asked:

I'd appreciate a side by side comparison if you have a minute. Thanks for this response to my question.

Sure, no problem.

1. LDS: Jesus Christ is just the “firstborn” of God’s billions of spirit children and the first to become a God. ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ is the only human being who existed in heaven before his human life (John 3:31). He did not become a God, but has always been God (John 1:1). He is called the “firstborn of all creation” (Colossians 1:15) to mean that he is the Father’s primary heir, not that he was the first spirit being created.

2. LDS: Jesus Christ is one of three Gods in the “Godhead,” as is the Holy Spirit. ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ is one of three divine persons (Matthew 28:19), but these three persons are one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6), not three Gods or God and two of his sons.

3. LDS: Jesus Christ is not the proper recipient of prayer; we may pray only to the Father in Jesus’ name. ORTHODOX: Even Mormons admit that faithful Israelites prayed to Jesus (whom they identify as Jehovah) in the Old Testament. The New Testament also affirms praying to Jesus (John 14:14; Romans 10:9-14; 2 Corinthians 12:7-9; 1 John 5:13-15).

4. LDS: Jesus Christ is the “Only Begotten,” which means that he is the only human being whom God the Father literally begat in the flesh. God is Jesus’ father in the flesh and Mary is his mother. ORTHODOX: In the Bible, calling Jesus the “only-begotten Son” refers to his eternal nature and status as God’s unique, divine Son (John 1:14, 18). Jesus was conceived “from the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:18), not as God’s physical offspring (an idea nowhere taught even in the LDS scriptures).

5. LDS: Jesus Christ “inherited divine powers from His Father” when he became a human being. ORTHODOX: Jesus did not “inherit” divine powers by being God’s physical offspring because he was already, as even LDS scriptures say, “the Lord Omnipotent…from all eternity to all eternity” (Mosiah 3:5).

6. LDS: Jesus Christ “organized the only true Church” with a system of priesthood “authority” required to teach or baptize others. ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ appointed apostles as his authoritative witnesses, not as custodians of a priesthood to run a religious organization. Rather, the whole church is a “royal priesthood” based not on ritual but on relationship to Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:4-10).

7. LDS: Jesus Christ suffered to atone for our sins in Gethsemane, bleeding from “every pore.” ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ did agonize in prayer in Gethsemane, but he did not bleed from every pore, and he atoned for our sins on the cross, not in Gethsemane (Ephesians 2:16; Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24).

8. LDS: Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of every human being, guaranteeing resurrection to immortal life in some heavenly kingdom to all, including unbelievers. ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice is sufficient to pay for the sins of the whole world, but only those whom God actually saves through faith will be resurrected to immortal heavenly life (1 Corinthians 15:20-23, 50-57).

9. LDS: Jesus Christ “appeared to the Nephites and established His Church in the Americas” shortly after his ascension. ORTHODOX: After Jesus’ ascension (Acts 1:9-11), he was to remain in heaven until his second coming (Acts 3:19-21). There are many other reasons to question the Book of Mormon account from a biblical perspective.

10. LDS: Jesus Christ (and God the Father) appeared to Joseph Smith to tell him to join none of the churches because all of them were wrong and their creeds an abomination. ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ promised the apostles that the gates of Hades (death) would not prevail against his church and that he would be with his disciples until the end of the age (Matthew 16:18; 28:20). These promises are not consistent with Joseph Smith’s claim that Jesus told him the churches were all so wrong that he could not be part of any of them.

A couple of quick comments. First, the above is a summary. I have articles that discuss most of the above points in detail on IRR's website. Second, I understand that Mormons will dispute the understanding of the biblical texts I cited in the above summary. I give these biblical references so you can get some idea of the way orthodox Christians connect what they say to the Bible, understanding that Mormons will try to argue for a different understanding of these biblical passages. The point is that orthodox Christians and Latter-day Saints, despite some common ground, have very different views about Jesus.

[pogi]

5. LDS: Jesus Christ “inherited divine powers from His Father” when he became a human being.

I think that is a pretty fair comparison on our differing perspectives of Jesus. There were a couple little things, one that I would like to point out is that we believe that Jesus inherited divine powers long before he became a human. He was the creator and God of the old testament.

Of course, you are right, we do read those biblical passages differently than you do, and we also have supporting biblical passages as well as other scripture and modern revelation to support our understanding.

Edited January 1, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

8. LDS: Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of every human being, guaranteeing resurrection to immortal life in some heavenly kingdom to all, including unbelievers. ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice is sufficient to pay for the sins of the whole world, but only those whom God actually saves through faith will be resurrected to immortal heavenly life (1 Corinthians 15:20-23, 50-57).

One more, not all are guaranteed immortal life in a heavenly kingdom. There are some who will receive no part in a heavenly kingdom. We also believe that faith is required for exaltation and eternal life.

[Rob Bowman]

pogi,

Thanks for your comments. You wrote:

I think that is a pretty fair comparison on our differing perspectives of Jesus. There were a couple little things, one that I would like to point out is that we believe that Jesus inherited divine powers long before he became a human. He was the creator and God of the old testament.

I understand that the LDS Church says that, but it also says that Jesus inherited divine powers when he became a physical human being as the offspring of Heavenly Father:

"Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal Father. That is why He is called the Only Begotten Son. He inherited divine powers from His Father. From His mother He inherited mortality and was subject to hunger, thirst, fatigue, pain, and death." (Gospel Principles, 2009, 153).

“Jesus was the only person to be born of a mortal mother, Mary, and an immortal father, God the Father. That is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten Son of God. From His Father, He inherited divine powers (see John 10:17–18). From His mother, He inherited mortality and became subject to hunger, thirst, fatigue, pain, and death” (“Jesus Christ Is the Only Begotten Son of God,” What We Believe series, Ensign, Dec. 2010, 8 ).

“With this understanding provided by modern revelation, it is possible to grasp the truth that God the Father is indeed the Father of Jesus Christ’s mortal body…. Elder James E. Talmage of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: ‘That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the “Son of the Highest.” In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity, declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall propagate—after their kind. The Child Jesus was to inherit the physical, mental, and spiritual traits, tendencies, and powers that characterized His parents—one immortal and glorified—God, the other human—woman’” (Larry E. Dahl, “The Morning Breaks, the Shadows Flee,” Ensign, April 1997).

Edited January 1, 2013 by Rob Bowman

[Rob Bowman]

pogi,

You wrote:

One more, not all are guaranteed immortal life in a heavenly kingdom. There are some who will receive no part in a heavenly kingdom.

Technically, what you say is correct, but my brief summary is also correct in a conditional sense, namely, that everyone is guaranteed immortal life in a heavenly kingdom unless they deliberately reject it. Mormons usually assure me that the number of people in this category will be extremely small.

You wrote:

We also believe that faith is required for exaltation and eternal life.

Yes, plus a whole lot more.

[pogi]

pogi,

Thanks for your comments. You wrote:

I understand that the LDS Church says that, but it also says that Jesus inherited divine powers when he became a physical human being as the offspring of Heavenly Father:

"Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal Father. That is why He is called the Only Begotten Son. He inherited divine powers from His Father. From His mother He inherited mortality and was subject to hunger, thirst, fatigue, pain, and death." (Gospel Principles, 2009, 153).

“Jesus was the only person to be born of a mortal mother, Mary, and an immortal father, God the Father. That is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten Son of God. From His Father, He inherited divine powers (see John 10:17–18). From His mother, He inherited mortality and became subject to hunger, thirst, fatigue, pain, and death” (“Jesus Christ Is the Only Begotten Son of God,” What We Believe series, Ensign, Dec. 2010, 8 ).

“With this understanding provided by modern revelation, it is possible to grasp the truth that God the Father is indeed the Father of Jesus Christ’s mortal body…. Elder James E. Talmage of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: ‘That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the “Son of the Highest.” In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity, declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall propagate—after their kind. The Child Jesus was to inherit the physical, mental, and spiritual traits, tendencies, and powers that characterized His parents—one immortal and glorified—God, the other human—woman’” (Larry E. Dahl, “The Morning Breaks, the Shadows Flee,” Ensign, April 1997).

Yes, he did inherit these divine traits from his father, but this is not to say that he did not have divine powers previously. Your post made it sound as if we believe that he had no divine powers previous to his physical birth even though, as you point out in Mosiah 3:5, we claim that he did. To a non-member, it would appear that you are pointing out a contradiction in our beliefs, when in reality there is none.

[pogi]

Technically, what you say is correct, but my brief summary is also correct in a conditional sense, namely, that everyone is guaranteed immortal life in a heavenly kingdom unless they deliberately reject it. Mormons usually assure me that the number of people in this category will be extremely small.

That would be an important condition that you have italicized to include in your brief summary if you plan on presenting a fair representation of Mormon beliefs. As stated, it would appear as if we do not believe in a hell. Your representation also makes it a appear as if exaltation is a free gift to all. To be fair, you would have to distinguish exaltation from immortal life in a heavenly kingdom. But over all, I think that you present a fairly accurate depiction and comparison.

Edited January 1, 2013 by pogi

[Rob Bowman]

pogi,

You wrote:

That would be an important condition that you have italicized to include in your brief summary if you plan on presenting a fair representation of Mormon beliefs. As stated, it would appear as if we do not believe in a hell.

We have that distinction mentioned in several articles that go into more depth, but I think I will go ahead and add something there. It probably won't be tonight.

You wrote:

Your representation also makes it a appear as if exaltation is a free gift to all. To be fair, you would have to distinguish exaltation from immortal life in a heavenly kingdom.

The summary speaks of "resurrection to immortal life in some heavenly kingdom." I don't see the problem.

You said:

But over all, I think that you present a fairly accurate depiction and comparison.

Thanks!

[mathonihah]

Tacenda,

You asked:

Sure, no problem.

I would have preferred if you had made your comparison with “biblical Jesus” rather than “orthodox Jesus,” because what you call “orthodox” I call apostate.

1. LDS: Jesus Christ is just the “firstborn” of God’s billions of spirit children and the first to become a God. ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ is the only human being who existed in heaven before his human life (John 3:31). He did not become a God, but has always been God (John 1:1). He is called the “firstborn of all creation” (Colossians 1:15) to mean that he is the Father’s primary heir, not that he was the first spirit being created.

A number of points: (a.) John 3:31 cannot be construed to imply that no one else “pre-existed”. Jesus differed from us in that he was divine before he was born. He was someone whom the Father had “sanctified, and sent into the world” (John 10:36). These justify his statement in John 3:31. But it cannot be construed to deny the pre-existence of spirits. (b.) I don’t think that Mormonism teaches that he “became God” either. (c.) Your interpretation of Col. 1:15 is arbitrary and forced. It is not the most natural reading of the verse, which also receives support form Rev. 3:14.

2. LDS: Jesus Christ is one of three Gods in the “Godhead,” as is the Holy Spirit. ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ is one of three divine persons (Matthew 28:19), but these three persons are one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6), not three Gods or God and two of his sons.

That is not biblical. Biblical passages can be interpreted either way. Some can be interpreted to mean one God, while others can be interpreted three Gods. You are forcing your favoured interpretation on the whole lot. That is false and arbitrary.

3. LDS: Jesus Christ is not the proper recipient of prayer; we may pray only to the Father in Jesus’ name. ORTHODOX: Even Mormons admit that faithful Israelites prayed to Jesus (whom they identify as Jehovah) in the Old Testament. The New Testament also affirms praying to Jesus (John 14:14; Romans 10:9-14; 2 Corinthians 12:7-9; 1 John 5:13-15).

Mormons do not have an aversion to praying to Jesus, just that he commanded us to pray to the father in his name. The very first verse you referenced supports LDS view rather than yours: “If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” (John 14:14). Compare with John 16:26-27. The rest of the verses you quoted simply use Lord in the OT sense.

4. LDS: Jesus Christ is the “Only Begotten,” which means that he is the only human being whom God the Father literally begat in the flesh. God is Jesus’ father in the flesh and Mary is his mother. ORTHODOX: In the Bible, calling Jesus the “only-begotten Son” refers to his eternal nature and status as God’s unique, divine Son (John 1:14, 18). Jesus was conceived “from the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:18), not as God’s physical offspring (an idea nowhere taught even in the LDS scriptures).

If by that you mean that Jesus was conceived in the flesh through natural intercourse, the answer is that that is not Mormon doctrine, regardless of how much the “antis” like to trumpet that accusation. But it is perfectly biblical to say that Jesus is the “only begotten” of the Father in the flesh, in the sense that he did not have a natural father, but that God was his Father not only in the spirit, but also in the flesh (miraculously, that is). This is exactly the meaning of what the angel Gabriel said to Mary “... therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35). In other words, Jesus was called the Son of God precisely because he was begotten in the flesh by God (miraculously by the power of the Holy Ghost, not through natural intercourse). So he was literally the Son of God in the flesh, as opposed to the rest of us who are the sons of our natural fathers. But the thing occurred in the flesh, not just in the spirit. That is the meaning of the scriptures. And of course, that also makes him the “Only Begotten,” because he was the only one to have ever been born (in the flesh) in that way.

5. LDS: Jesus Christ “inherited divine powers from His Father” when he became a human being. ORTHODOX: Jesus did not “inherit” divine powers by being God’s physical offspring because he was already, as even LDS scriptures say, “the Lord Omnipotent…from all eternity to all eternity” (Mosiah 3:5).

That refers to his inheritance in the flesh. As we all inherit attributes of our natural parents when we are born in the flesh, he also inherited attributes from his Father when he was born in the flesh, which would of course have to be divine attributes. See previous paragraph.

6. LDS: Jesus Christ “organized the only true Church” with a system of priesthood “authority” required to teach or baptize others. ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ appointed apostles as his authoritative witnesses, not as custodians of a priesthood to run a religious organization. Rather, the whole church is a “royal priesthood” based not on ritual but on relationship to Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:4-10).

That is your arbitrary interpretation. There is nothing in it to suggest it is superior to the LDS one.

7. LDS: Jesus Christ suffered to atone for our sins in Gethsemane, bleeding from “every pore.” ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ did agonize in prayer in Gethsemane, but he did not bleed from every pore, and he atoned for our sins on the cross, not in Gethsemane (Ephesians 2:16; Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24).

The fact that he bled from every pore in Gethsemane is recorded in the Gospels; but that is not the central issue. Correct LDS doctrine teaches that the Atonement took place on the cross, not in Gethsemane. Those who teach otherwise do not understand it correctly.

8. LDS: Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of every human being, guaranteeing resurrection to immortal life in some heavenly kingdom to all, including unbelievers. ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice is sufficient to pay for the sins of the whole world, but only those whom God actually saves through faith will be resurrected to immortal heavenly life (1 Corinthians 15:20-23, 50-57).

That was a bit confusing. Correct doctrine is: (1) Jesus atoned (suffered) for the sins of all mankind, both the saved and the unsaved. That is biblical. Some Protestant denominations teach otherwise. They teach that His sufferings were selective. He suffered only for those who would be saved, not for those who wouldn’t be. That is false and unbiblical. (2) The Atonement of Christ brings about the resurrection of all mankind, the wicked and the righteous, the saved and the unsaved. (3) Jesus’ Atonement does not save, or guarantee eternal life to everyone, but only to those who repent and keep his commandments.

9. LDS: Jesus Christ “appeared to the Nephites and established His Church in the Americas” shortly after his ascension. ORTHODOX: After Jesus’ ascension (Acts 1:9-11), he was to remain in heaven until his second coming (Acts 3:19-21). There are many other reasons to question the Book of Mormon account from a biblical perspective.

Again, that is an arbitrary interpretation. It doesn’t make it superior to the LDS interpretation.

10. LDS: Jesus Christ (and God the Father) appeared to Joseph Smith to tell him to join none of the churches because all of them were wrong and their creeds an abomination. ORTHODOX: Jesus Christ promised the apostles that the gates of Hades (death) would not prevail against his church and that he would be with his disciples until the end of the age (Matthew 16:18; 28:20). These promises are not consistent with Joseph Smith’s claim that Jesus told him the churches were all so wrong that he could not be part of any of them.

That is the classic argument that is brought by Catholics against the LDS doctrine of the Apostasy; whereas from the Catholic point of view Protestantism itself is an apostasy from the Catholic Church; therefore if it is true for Catholicism it cannot be of Protestantism! The fact remains, however, that that scripture is misconstrued, and cannot be used to negate the Apostasy.

A couple of quick comments. First, the above is a summary. I have articles that discuss most of the above points in detail on IRR's website. Second, I understand that Mormons will dispute the understanding of the biblical texts I cited in the above summary. I give these biblical references so you can get some idea of the way orthodox Christians connect what they say to the Bible, understanding that Mormons will try to argue for a different understanding of these biblical passages. The point is that orthodox Christians and Latter-day Saints, despite some common ground, have very different views about Jesus.

Nice disclaimer to cover your back. I agree, however, that “orthodox Christians [apostate Christianity] and Latter-day Saints [Restored Christianity], despite some common ground, have very different views about Jesus”.

Edited January 2, 2013 by mathonihah

[cdowis]

del

Edited January 1, 2013 by cdowis

[mathonihah]

I see a problem when this your audience is nonLDS. The term "heavenly kingdom" is misleading, since they only understand heaven and hell, giving the impression that "everyone", including Hitler, are going to heaven. Now what is heaven, according to their understanding?

Will Hitler go to a "heavenly" kingdom, as understood by the historic Christians? This is not LDS doctrine, and you surely know it. Hitler will dwell in hell for a very long time, which is missing from your "summary", and his residence in the telestial kingdom is "damnation", not heaven.

Rob, once again you are not a reliable source for LDS doctrine. You are as the Pharasee attempting to expound on the doctrines of Christ. I realize that you are paid for this activity, but we LDS are aware of your distortion of our doctrine, for pay.

Heavenly kingdom, indeed.

I endorse the above reply, minus the bits crossed out.

[cdowis]

I endorse the above reply, minus the bits crossed out.

Were you aware that Rob is a paid antiMormon. Do you think he has given an accurate description of LDS doctrine, taking his audience into account? Do you think a Parasee would be a reliable source for Christian doctrine?

Exactly what is your disagreement. Anyway, I have totally removed my post.

Edited January 1, 2013 by cdowis

[mfbukowski]

I am waiting for someone to point out the Big Bang as proof of the Evangelical view of the universe.

Good luck on that one. It is totally obvious but then they would have to include evolution too.

I mean either science has something to teach us or it doesn't. They have chosen door 2, so they will never go back to see what is behind door 1.

[mfbukowski]

Charles,

You wrote:

Retract this gratuitous swipe at my integrity, and I will answer your substantive criticisms.

Gosh where have I seen this behavior before?

I think we should all adopt this philosophy and only answer your non-substantive claims when you stop criticizing our church.

Regardless it is a very good avoidance tactic. You win either way. You won't answer unless it is retracted. Heads you win, tails we lose. Ridiculous.

[cdowis]

Charles,

You wrote:

Retract this gratuitous swipe at my integrity, and I will answer your substantive criticisms.

My comment was very inappropriate, and I am sorry. This was outside the bounds of common decency.

[cdowis]

del

Edited January 2, 2013 by cdowis