Witness For The Plates Vs. Witnesses For Resurrection

[mfbukowski]

To mfb and Nathair (believing Jesus to be a tribal deity without the Book of Mormon).

This is riddled with illogical thinking. We believe The Book of Mormon is true based on no reliable scientific evidence. It claims to be 'another,' but not only testimony of Christ. We believe because we have had a spiritual witness of it's divinity.

And yet... Without the BoM you would dismiss the Bible and Jesus Christ, the saviour of the world, to be a tribal deity? You don't think you could get a similar, unprovable witness of Christ's atonement without the BoM?

However did the Christians pre-1820s manage it?

I hope your comments are ironic. Otherwise it's a sad reflection of the narrow mindedness we Mormons can stoop to.

I don't remember if I bothered to answer this.....post.... or not.

Of course that is not what I believe.

All I was saying is that one has to have a testimony of anything anyone believes of a religious nature or else one is accepting it because it is tradition, which is a horrible reason to pick a religion.

Pre-1820 Christians were the same as us- either they had a testimony or they accepted what they had been taught at their mother's knee because they were 5th generation or 20th generation or 200th generation Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, etc etc etc.

One must have a testimony of the Bible or one should not believe it, just as one must have a testimony of Mormonism.

Cheesh!

[mfbukowski]

And the character of some of the apostles involved were not exactly wonderful when they were first called by christ. I find it amazing that christians can be critical of mormonism and its "lack" of evidence when the bible also has a lack of evidence outiside the testimony of a few.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make above as well. Thanks for stating it so succinctly!

[Vance]

Compare the above statement by TBM Vance to the ubiquitous Mormon hand-wringing over "anti-Mormon" condemnations of Mormonism. Why should evangelicals worry about Mormons taking offense at evangelicals saying Mormons are not "Christians" if Mormons are comfortable saying that evangelicals are "unbelievers"?

From your statement in 296 you are clearly an unbeliever. Not just an unbeliever but an antagonist. You not only do not believe in the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, you clearly dispise the man.

I find it fasinating that you take such offence at being called an unbeliever in Mormonism (in which you do not believe), while whining about Mormons taking a similar offense at being called an unbelievers in Christ (in whom they do believe).

Your logic truly is dizzying.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

The term unbeliever, in the context in which it was first used, denotes someone who disbelieves in God, Jesus Christ, and the good news that Christ died and rose again for our salvation, not someone who disbelieves in Joseph Smith, the gold plates, and the LDS Church hierarchy.

I don't mind at all someone observing that I don't believe in Mormonism. I simply point out, as a matter of fact, that my disbelief in Mormonism is not predicated on disbelief in God, miracles, revelation, angels, Jesus Christ's atoning death and resurrection, and similar such elements that Mormonism shares (in some way) with historic Christianity.

Furthermore, as you already know, those evangelicals who say that Mormonism is not Christian are not saying that Mormons do not have a belief in Christ. That is a straw man of Mormon rhetoric.

From your statement in 296 you are clearly an unbeliever. Not just an unbeliever but an antagonist. You not only do not believe in the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, you clearly dispise the man.

I find it fasinating that you take such offence at being called an unbeliever in Mormonism (in which you do not believe), while whining about Mormons taking a similar offense at being called an unbelievers in Christ (in whom they do believe).

Your logic truly is dizzying.

[Tacenda]

Vance,

The term unbeliever, in the context in which it was first used, denotes someone who disbelieves in God, Jesus Christ, and the good news that Christ died and rose again for our salvation, not someone who disbelieves in Joseph Smith, the gold plates, and the LDS Church hierarchy.

I don't mind at all someone observing that I don't believe in Mormonism. I simply point out, as a matter of fact, that my disbelief in Mormonism is not predicated on disbelief in God, miracles, revelation, angels, Jesus Christ's atoning death and resurrection, and similar such elements that Mormonism shares (in some way) with historic Christianity.

Furthermore, as you already know, those evangelicals who say that Mormonism is not Christian are not saying that Mormons do not have a belief in Christ. That is a straw man of Mormon rhetoric.

But a different Christ, is what I keep hearing. And there is a quote by Pres. Hinckley where he has said that it is so. EV's therefore, believe we worship the wrong Jesus.

[Rob Bowman]

Tacenda,

You wrote:

But a different Christ, is what I keep hearing. And there is a quote by Pres. Hinckley where he has said that it is so. EV's therefore, believe we worship the wrong Jesus.

Yes, in the sense that Mormonism teaches a radically different conception of God and also specifically of Christ. Evangelicals do not mean that Mormonism teaches belief in a numerically different Jesus (say, some guy named "Jesus Hernandez" from South El Monte). We recognize that Mormons believe in the Jesus who was born in Bethlehem, grew up in Nazareth, called twelve men to be his apostles, healed the sick, cast out demons, taught about God's kingdom, died on the cross, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven. In that sense of course Mormons believe in "the same Jesus." However, the LDS theological understanding of Jesus is unorthodox (and, we firmly believe, unbiblical) and in that sense is a "different" Jesus (compare 2 Cor. 11:4, where false beliefs about Jesus can be characterized in this way).

Also, to be precise, what evangelicals are talking about here is the standard LDS doctrine about Jesus, not necessarily what each individual Mormon believes. There is diversity of beliefs within Mormonism just as there are within almost every other religious group or movement.

[canard78]

Wouldn't the testimonies of the resurrection have been more convincing had they come

from credible, historical, and reputable figures such as Herod, Pilate, the chief priests and elders, the scribes and the entire Sanhedrin? Seems to me these would have been more powerful witnesses than

obscure fishermen, tradesmen, and a few women, all of whom were already His followers and had

considerable vested interest in proving the veracity of His predictions. Appearing before the

Romans who crucified Him would have convinced the most powerful political force in the world,

and appearing to all the Jews in Jerusalem would have irrefutably confirmed His claims to be their God

and King.

Wouldn't the testimony of the plates have been more credible if they were shown to a journalist, Govenor Boggs, a Methodist minister?

Besides, Jesus showed himself to Saul.

[mfbukowski]

Furthermore, as you already know, those evangelicals who say that Mormonism is not Christian are not saying that Mormons do not have a belief in Christ. That is a straw man of Mormon rhetoric.

Yeah, I guess we made that all up ourselves so we could feel persecuted. We are pretty clever, huh? Unbelievable!

The sky is also orange and birds fly upside down. I am beginning to understand your logic perfectly now.

[mfbukowski]

But a different Christ, is what I keep hearing. And there is a quote by Pres. Hinckley where he has said that it is so. EV's therefore, believe we worship the wrong Jesus.

I didn't know there were several. How many are there?

[canard78]

I don't remember if I bothered to answer this.....post.... or not.

Of course that is not what I believe.

All I was saying is that one has to have a testimony of anything anyone believes of a religious nature or else one is accepting it because it is tradition, which is a horrible reason to pick a religion.

Pre-1820 Christians were the same as us- either they had a testimony or they accepted what they had been taught at their mother's knee because they were 5th generation or 20th generation or 200th generation Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, etc etc etc.

One must have a testimony of the Bible or one should not believe it, just as one must have a testimony of Mormonism.

Cheesh!

You had (to a similar post on the same topic), but thanks for checking

[Tacenda]

I didn't know there were several. How many are there?

Several what? (I think you might be referring to another post. The one about "paid members of our faith and paid members of other faiths"). Edited December 27, 2012 by Tacenda

[Vance]

The term unbeliever, in the context in which it was first used, denotes someone who disbelieves in God, Jesus Christ, and the good news that Christ died and rose again for our salvation, . . .

So? That isn't the context in which I used the term.

. . . not someone who disbelieves in Joseph Smith, the gold plates, and the LDS Church hierarchy.

This is a Mormon Dialogue board. You are an unbeliever.

Simple really.

I don't mind at all someone observing that I don't believe in Mormonism.

So, your faux outrage was just that, faux outrage.

I simply point out, as a matter of fact, that my disbelief in Mormonism is not predicated on disbelief in God, miracles, revelation, angels, Jesus Christ's atoning death and resurrection, and similar such elements that Mormonism shares (in some way) with historic Christianity.

And yet THAT IS EXACTLY the intended message of the anti-mormons (generally, not specifically including you, although you do accept and enjoy the fruits of others in this regard).

Furthermore, as you already know, those evangelicals who say that Mormonism is not Christian are not saying that Mormons do not have a belief in Christ.

Actually, I do NOT know that. In fact, the underlying message of such anti-mormon rhetoric is exactly the opposite.

Psst, here it the little secret you are wanting to ignore, THEY WANT IT THAT WAY!!!!

That is a straw man of Mormon rhetoric.

Says the anti-mormon who enjoys the fruits of such anti-mormon rhetoric.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

I had written: "The term unbeliever, in the context in which it was first used, denotes someone who disbelieves in God, Jesus Christ, and the good news that Christ died and rose again for our salvation, not someone who disbelieves in Joseph Smith, the gold plates, and the LDS Church hierarchy." You replied:

You wrote:

So? That isn't the context in which I used the term.

I was the one who introduced the term into the discussion, pointing out that my disbelief in the Book of Mormon is not the result of anti-supernaturalist bias or lack of belief in God and Jesus Christ. You twisted the conversation around by asserting that I am an "unbeliever" without qualifying your statement to make explicit your preferred narrower meaning.

I stated: "I simply point out, as a matter of fact, that my disbelief in Mormonism is not predicated on disbelief in God, miracles, revelation, angels, Jesus Christ's atoning death and resurrection, and similar such elements that Mormonism shares (in some way) with historic Christianity."

You replied:

And yet THAT IS EXACTLY the intended message of the anti-mormons (generally, not specifically including you, although you do accept and enjoy the fruits of others in this regard).

Your statement not only doesn't apply to me, it doesn't apply to any evangelical critics of Mormonism. So it is not even "generally" true. Nor do I accept the anti-supernaturalist or anti-Christian arguments of skeptical ex-Mormons.

I had written: "Furthermore, as you already know, those evangelicals who say that Mormonism is not Christian are not saying that Mormons do not have a belief in Christ."

You replied:

Actually, I do NOT know that. In fact, the underlying message of such anti-mormon rhetoric is exactly the opposite.

You just gave your own rhetorical game away. The use of the words "underlying message" is a tacit admission that evangelical critics of Mormonism do not actually say that Mormons do not have a belief in Christ.

[mfbukowski]

Vance,

I had written: "The term unbeliever, in the context in which it was first used, denotes someone who disbelieves in God, Jesus Christ, and the good news that Christ died and rose again for our salvation, not someone who disbelieves in Joseph Smith, the gold plates, and the LDS Church hierarchy." You replied:

You wrote:

I was the one who introduced the term into the discussion, pointing out that my disbelief in the Book of Mormon is not the result of anti-supernaturalist bias or lack of belief in God and Jesus Christ. You twisted the conversation around by asserting that I am an "unbeliever" without qualifying your statement to make explicit your preferred narrower meaning.

I stated: "I simply point out, as a matter of fact, that my disbelief in Mormonism is not predicated on disbelief in God, miracles, revelation, angels, Jesus Christ's atoning death and resurrection, and similar such elements that Mormonism shares (in some way) with historic Christianity."

You replied:

Your statement not only doesn't apply to me, it doesn't apply to any evangelical critics of Mormonism. So it is not even "generally" true. Nor do I accept the anti-supernaturalist or anti-Christian arguments of skeptical ex-Mormons.

I had written: "Furthermore, as you already know, those evangelicals who say that Mormonism is not Christian are not saying that Mormons do not have a belief in Christ."

You replied:

You just gave your own rhetorical game away. The use of the words "underlying message" is a tacit admission that evangelical critics of Mormonism do not actually say that Mormons do not have a belief in Christ.

Well clearly you are an unbeliever since you worship a different Christ than the correct Biblical Christ, by your own admission, and since we worship the savior of the Bible AND the Book of Mormon, it would follow that you are an unbeliever.

[go_utes01]

Wait, wait, wait. You are claiming that evangelical critics of Mormonism do not argue that Mormons do not believe in Christ? You better tell that to the many evangelical critics of Mormonism I have come in contact with, who continually make that exact argument. Maybe if they are pressed, they may make some nuanced argument that we may believe in Christ, but it is a different Christ, etc. (maybe, some do not make that distinction). Loudly, repeatedly, and purposefully evangelical critics make the criticism that Mormons do not believe in Christ in such a manner that many evangelicals I come into contact with here in the South do not even know that we believe in Christ at all (or even celebrate Christmas, etc.), and are genuinely shocked when I explain that we do. This is the purpose of the explicitly stated "overlying message." The underlying message may be that Mormons actually do believe in Christ, but have a different conception of Him - this underlying message is rarely, if ever, made explicit.

[mathonihah]

Compare the above statement by TBM Vance to the ubiquitous Mormon hand-wringing over "anti-Mormon" condemnations of Mormonism.

There is no "Mormon hand-wringing over 'anti-Mormon' condemnations of Mormonism". They act true to their character when they do that; and Mormons also act true to theirs when they give them an appropriate reply.

Why should evangelicals worry about Mormons taking offense at evangelicals saying Mormons are not "Christians" if Mormons are comfortable saying that evangelicals are "unbelievers"?

Mormons don't take any offence; at least I don't. It is just good fun to silence them by giving them the answer they deserve.

[Rob Bowman]

Mr. Bukowski,

You wrote:

Well clearly you are an unbeliever since you worship a different Christ than the correct Biblical Christ, by your own admission, and since we worship the savior of the Bible AND the Book of Mormon, it would follow that you are an unbeliever.

That has to be one of the most confused statements I've seen in this forum in a while, and that's saying something. I do not "by [my] own admission" "worship a different Christ than the correct Biblical Christ." Where do you get this stuff?

[mfbukowski]

That has to be one of the most confused statements I've seen in this forum in a while, and that's saying something. I do not "by [my] own admission" "worship a different Christ than the correct Biblical Christ." Where do you get this stuff?

Just a taste of your own medicine. We believe we worship the correct Biblical Christ and you worship another one, so that makes you an unbeliever.

Do we not worship a "different Christ" according to you?

[Rob Bowman]

go_utes01,

Every book and article by an evangelical that addresses this issue that I have ever seen makes the point that Mormons do not believe in Christ as he is presented in the Bible, Christ as he is understood in orthodox Christianity. Every single one. I have never seen or heard an evangelical say that Mormons don't believe in Jesus at all.

Wait, wait, wait. You are claiming that evangelical critics of Mormonism do not argue that Mormons do not believe in Christ? You better tell that to the many evangelical critics of Mormonism I have come in contact with, who continually make that exact argument. Maybe if they are pressed, they may make some nuanced argument that we may believe in Christ, but it is a different Christ, etc. (maybe, some do not make that distinction). Loudly, repeatedly, and purposefully evangelical critics make the criticism that Mormons do not believe in Christ in such a manner that many evangelicals I come into contact with here in the South do not even know that we believe in Christ at all (or even celebrate Christmas, etc.), and are genuinely shocked when I explain that we do. This is the purpose of the explicitly stated "overlying message." The underlying message may be that Mormons actually do believe in Christ, but have a different conception of Him - this underlying message is rarely, if ever, made explicit.

[Rob Bowman]

Mr. Bukowski,

You wrote:

Just a taste of your own medicine. We believe we worship the correct Biblical Christ and you worship another one, so that makes you an unbeliever.

Do we not worship a "different Christ" according to you?

If you sincerely think that the Christ I worship is not the biblical Christ, then you should describe me as a heretic, false teacher, apostate, or whatever, but the unqualified term "unbeliever" would still not be accurate; it would still be misleading. Again, I don't describe Mormons as "unbelievers." So this isn't my own medicine you are trying to administer.

[go_utes01]

You need to get out more then. If what you say is correct, why are so many evangelicals shocked to find out that members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints actually believe in Christ? Their false understanding must come from somewhere, right?

[Rob Bowman]

go_utes01,

You wrote:

You need to get out more then. If what you say is correct, why are so many evangelicals shocked to find out that members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints actually believe in Christ? Their false understanding must come from somewhere, right?

Again, I have never heard an evangelical deny that members of the LDS Church have a belief in Christ. And I get out plenty. I have spoken at churches and Christian colleges, universities, and seminaries in many different parts of the United States. If you say some evangelicals have expressed surprise at this in private conversations with you, I wasn't there and can't confirm or your deny your anecdotal claim. However, they cannot be getting this idea from evangelical publications that are critical of Mormonism, because no such publications deny that Mormons have a belief in Christ. They cannot be getting it from evangelical critics speaking in churches or on the radio. What they all say is that Mormons believe in a different Jesus in the sense that Mormons have beliefs about Jesus that are radically unbiblical.

If your evangelical-on-the-street really gets his mistaken idea about Mormons from evangelical teachers, pastors, or other ministry workers, it ought to be easy enough to document examples of evangelical critics of Mormonism saying that Mormons don't believe in Jesus at all. But I don't think you'll find any. I doubt you'll even be able to find examples of evangelicals online asserting that Mormons don't have any belief in Jesus.

By way of contrast, I would carefully distinguish what some Mormons have said to me about evangelical or more broadly orthodox beliefs from what the LDS Church's publications actually say about evangelical beliefs. Only if I can show that the LDS Church's teachers are teaching a particular misrepresentation of evangelical or orthodox Christian beliefs would I accuse the LDS Church of being responsible for the misrepresentations expressed by individual Mormons. For example, LDS Church leaders and teachers have claimed that orthodox Christians worship a false god, believe in a false christ, teach a false view of sin, deny the resurrection, and preach a Satanic view of salvation and grace! With such blatant misrepresentations by Mormons, many of them uttered by Mormons at the highest levels, there is no need to try to make hay out of anecdotal claims about what some Mormon might have said to me.

I wish you and other Mormons would agree to hold yourselves to the same standard.

[Tacenda]

go_utes01,

You wrote:

Again, I have never heard an evangelical deny that members of the LDS Church have a belief in Christ. And I get out plenty. I have spoken at churches and Christian colleges, universities, and seminaries in many different parts of the United States. If you say some evangelicals have expressed surprise at this in private conversations with you, I wasn't there and can't confirm or your deny your anecdotal claim. However, they cannot be getting this idea from evangelical publications that are critical of Mormonism, because no such publications deny that Mormons have a belief in Christ. They cannot be getting it from evangelical critics speaking in churches or on the radio. What they all say is that Mormons believe in a different Jesus in the sense that Mormons have beliefs about Jesus that are radically unbiblical.

If your evangelical-on-the-street really gets his mistaken idea about Mormons from evangelical teachers, pastors, or other ministry workers, it ought to be easy enough to document examples of evangelical critics of Mormonism saying that Mormons don't believe in Jesus at all. But I don't think you'll find any. I doubt you'll even be able to find examples of evangelicals online asserting that Mormons don't have any belief in Jesus.

By way of contrast, I would carefully distinguish what some Mormons have said to me about evangelical or more broadly orthodox beliefs from what the LDS Church's publications actually say about evangelical beliefs. Only if I can show that the LDS Church's teachers are teaching a particular misrepresentation of evangelical or orthodox Christian beliefs would I accuse the LDS Church of being responsible for the misrepresentations expressed by individual Mormons. For example, LDS Church leaders and teachers have claimed that orthodox Christians worship a false god, believe in a false christ, teach a false view of sin, deny the resurrection, and preach a Satanic view of salvation and grace! With such blatant misrepresentations by Mormons, many of them uttered by Mormons at the highest levels, there is no need to try to make hay out of anecdotal claims about what some Mormon might have said to me.

I wish you and other Mormons would agree to hold yourselves to the same standard.

We as LDS have to admit we came against EV's or other Christian faiths first when we claimed they were wrong or atleast that's what JS was told in the first vision. So must we continue to haggle over it or can we just get along with our differences?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Vision

Smith asked them "O Lord, what church shall I join?"^[9] or "Must I join the Methodist Church?"^[26] In answer, he was told that "all religious denominations were believing in incorrect doctrines, and that none of them was acknowledged of God as his church and kingdom."^[29] All churches and their professors were "corrupt",^[30] and "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight."^[14] Smith was told not to join any of the churches, but that the "fulness of the gospel" would be known to him at a later time.^[31] After the vision withdrew, Smith said he "came to myself" and found himself sprawled on his back.^[30]

Edited December 28, 2012 by Tacenda

[go_utes01]

What standard and am I attempting to hold you to that I am unwilling to hold myself to exactly? I merely explained my personal experience to you. If you want to tell me that I am mistaken in my personal experiences, you can go ahead and make that claim. A quick search found this quote: "Mormonism truly denies the Jesus of the Bible, because they deny the essentials of his identity. Just like the people of Jesus' day, the Mormons deny the historic reality of who Jesus really was and what he did.

To me, that quote looks to be saying that Mormons deny the historic reality of who Jesus really was and what He did - seems like an evangelical claiming that Mormons deny Jesus. This guy teaches seminars about Mormon beliefs - if an evangelical went to one of these (or a friend/relative did), and saw/heard this quote - I don't think it would take a large leap for that individual to come to the conclusion about Mormon beliefs that I have experienced, i.e. that Mormons deny Jesus. Is my conclusion unfounded? Could be. Do some evangelicals teach/believe that Mormons deny Jesus? Could be.

[go_utes01]

By the way, the title of the webpage I got the quote from was "Mormons Deny Jesus" - that alone would be sufficient for an evangelical, not versed in actual LDS beliefs, to conclude that MORMONS DENY JESUS, or do you not think that conclusion would be warranted? Whatever, this is a thread derail and has nothing to do with witnesses for the plates vs. witnesses of the resurrection. I don't mind that many evangelicals have been taught erroneously of LDS beliefs, it provides me the opportunity to discuss the matters with them directly and correct their misconceptions. I just find it disingenuous to claim that misconceptions about our beliefs are not taught and pushed in some evangelical congregations. Again, not a huge deal. Most of the evangelicals I come into contact with are great people and are genuinely interested in discussing the differences in our beliefs. I have learned a lot from having conversations discussing our differing and shared beliefs and am thankful for the opportunity. In apparent contrast to your style (I am new here, so this thread may not be an accurate portrayal of your mode of dialogue), most evangelicals I come into contact with are kind, respectful, and willing to discuss openly and honestly about our religious, social, and cultural beliefs.

Edited December 28, 2012 by go_utes01