DavidB Posted December 7, 2012 Posted December 7, 2012 The following was related to me by a man name John who is attending a protestant seminary:"When I was 11, I gave my life to Jesus along with two other boys, in a Eastern State. At the end of our ceremony, the Pastor - Pastor Jones - said 'Each of you will become a Pastor'. I last saw this Pastor when I was 16. I moved on with life and did my thing. I went to college, joined the marines, drinking and such. I didn't attend Church during those years. When I was 45, I moved to Southern California. I felt a desire to get back to Church, so a friend ask if I wanted to attend with him. I went and enjoyed the services. I went back a few more times. After one service I was brought to the "Fellowship Hall" of the Church. I was looking at all the pictures on the wall when suddenly I exclaimed 'That is Pastor Jones.' Everyone was astonished and asked how I knew Pastor Jones, I told them he was my Youth Pastor when I was a teenager on the East Coast. I was then told that Pastor Jones was the former Pastor of the congregation and he had passed some years ago."John, also told me that he had learned that the other two boys had become Pastors as adults. John is now attending Seminary to become a Pastor himself. John then said "Pastor Jones had the gift of discernment". I couldn't disagree if I tried.This caused me to wonder about "Gifts of the Spirit". How do we Latter day Saints, who claim sole Authority for the bestowal of the Holy Ghost as constant companion, explain that persons in other religions have "Gifts of the Spirit". And their lives are guided by the Spirit? (Admittedly, it would be terribly of us to think that God only answers the prayers of the LDS)
TAO Posted December 7, 2012 Posted December 7, 2012 The whisperings of the Spirit aren't exclusive to our church... that's the gift of the Holy Ghost You are thinking of =).
treeface Posted December 8, 2012 Posted December 8, 2012 How do we Latter day Saints, who claim sole Authority for the bestowal of the Holy Ghost as constant companion, explain that persons in other religions have "Gifts of the Spirit". And their lives are guided by the Spirit? (Admittedly, it would be terribly of us to think that God only answers the prayers of the LDS)I was in a class one time wherein the teacher, a convert who had served a mission, related how his non-member father gave him a blessing before he went on his mission, and much if not all of what his father said had come true. I was sort of uncomfortable with this because obviously his father didn't have the proper authority, but reasoned that it really wasn't my place to judge. Well someone else in the class had the presence of mind to ask the teacher what had become of his father, was he ever baptized? Oh yes, he said, he's now a stake patriarch. I wouldn't be surprised if God's gifts are generously distributed amongst all of his children.
Nathair/|\ Posted December 8, 2012 Posted December 8, 2012 I was in a class one time wherein the teacher, a convert who had served a mission, related how his non-member father gave him a blessing before he went on his mission, and much if not all of what his father said had come true. I was sort of uncomfortable with this because obviously his father didn't have the proper authority, but reasoned that it really wasn't my place to judge. Well someone else in the class had the presence of mind to ask the teacher what had become of his father, was he ever baptized? Oh yes, he said, he's now a stake patriarch. I wouldn't be surprised if God's gifts are generously distributed amongst all of his children.All fathers, regardless of religion, have the right to give patriarchal blessings to their children. 4
telnetd Posted December 8, 2012 Posted December 8, 2012 How do we Latter day Saints, who claim sole Authority for the bestowal of the Holy Ghost as constant companion, explain that persons in other religions have "Gifts of the Spirit".As far as I know, Latter-day Saints do not claim sole authority for the bestowalof the Holy Ghost. If you can find something in the lds teaching guides, pleasesupply it to support your position. But on the topic of priesthood, the LDS doclaim sole ownership of authorized priesthood authority because the non-LDSare said not to have it. In other words, the true priesthood is only present inthe true church.Gail
Duncan Posted December 8, 2012 Posted December 8, 2012 isn't there a scripture that says somewheres that everyone has a spiritual gift? obviously not everyone is LDS but give it time!
Storm Rider Posted December 8, 2012 Posted December 8, 2012 The following was related to me by a man name John who is attending a protestant seminary:"When I was 11, I gave my life to Jesus along with two other boys, in a Eastern State. At the end of our ceremony, the Pastor - Pastor Jones - said 'Each of you will become a Pastor'. I last saw this Pastor when I was 16. I moved on with life and did my thing. I went to college, joined the marines, drinking and such. I didn't attend Church during those years. When I was 45, I moved to Southern California. I felt a desire to get back to Church, so a friend ask if I wanted to attend with him. I went and enjoyed the services. I went back a few more times. After one service I was brought to the "Fellowship Hall" of the Church. I was looking at all the pictures on the wall when suddenly I exclaimed 'That is Pastor Jones.' Everyone was astonished and asked how I knew Pastor Jones, I told them he was my Youth Pastor when I was a teenager on the East Coast. I was then told that Pastor Jones was the former Pastor of the congregation and he had passed some years ago."John, also told me that he had learned that the other two boys had become Pastors as adults. John is now attending Seminary to become a Pastor himself. John then said "Pastor Jones had the gift of discernment". I couldn't disagree if I tried.This caused me to wonder about "Gifts of the Spirit".How do we Latter day Saints, who claim sole Authority for the bestowal of the Holy Ghost as constant companion, explain that persons in other religions have "Gifts of the Spirit". And their lives are guided by the Spirit? (Admittedly, it would be terribly of us to think that God only answers the prayers of the LDS)There are a lot of strange assumptions that you have as a foundation to your questions. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is not he gate through which all spiritual gifts flow. Each individual has spiritual gifts; some exercise them, strengthen them and make them an integral part of their lives. Others ignore them and allow them to dwindle and rest in a state of disuse and utter weakness. What makes you think that only the Gift of the Holy Ghost would allow someone to possess spiritual gifts? 2
Lightbearer Posted December 9, 2012 Posted December 9, 2012 This caused me to wonder about "Gifts of the Spirit".How do we Latter day Saints, who claim sole Authority for the bestowal of the Holy Ghost as constant companion, explain that persons in other religions have "Gifts of the Spirit". And their lives are guided by the Spirit? (Admittedly, it would be terribly of us to think that God only answers the prayers of the LDS)For one thing, God does give some gifts to all of His children as they are worthy of it. A testimony of the Gospel is commonly given to those non-members who investigate the Church and are taught by the missionaries. They will receive according to the light and knowledge that they have. This being said, I do not believe the gift of the Holy Ghost can be found in any other Church. I do not believe in the so-called "faith healers" of other churches or the so-called miracles or signs produced by some other faiths. I also believe that not all "gifts of the spirit" are necessarily from God. As noted in the current Gospel Principles manual: (Chapter 22: The Gifts of the Spirit,” Gospel Principles, (2009),125–32)"Satan Imitates the Gifts of the Spirit• How can we discern between the true gifts of the Spirit and Satan’s imitations?Satan can imitate the gifts of tongues, prophecy, visions, healings, and other miracles. Moses had to compete with Satan’s imitations in Pharaoh’s court (see Exodus 7:8–22). Satan wants us to believe in his false prophets, false healers, and false miracle workers. They may appear to be so real to us that the only way to know is to ask God for the gift of discernment. The devil himself can appear as an angel of light (see 2 Nephi 9:9).Satan wants to blind us to the truth and keep us from seeking the true gifts of the Spirit. Mediums, astrologers, fortune tellers, and sorcerers are inspired by Satan even if they claim to follow God. Their works are abominable to the Lord (see Isaiah 47:12–14; Deuteronomy 18:9–10). We should avoid all associations with the powers of Satan." I am sure this idea is rather unpopular on this board but it is one that has been held by the Church since the beginning. The Prophet Joseph taught about the false spirits that were abroad in the land. I would say that any spirit that led anyone away from the true Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) is a false spirit and is not of God. Even in the true Church there has been false spirits that plagued the Saints:"HEARKEN, O ye elders of my church, and give ear to the voice of the living God; and attend to the words of wisdom which shall be given unto you, according as ye have asked and are agreed as touching the church, and the spirits which have gone abroad in the earth. Behold, verily I say unto you, that there are many spirits which are false spirits, which have gone forth in the earth, deceiving the world. And also Satan hath sought to deceive you, that he might overthrow you. Behold, I, the Lord, have looked upon you, and have seen abominations in the church that profess my name. But blessed are they who are faithful and endure, whether in life or in death, for they shall inherit eternal life. But wo unto them that are deceivers and hypocrites, for, thus saith the Lord, I will bring them to judgment. Behold, verily I say unto you, there are hypocrites among you, who have deceived some, which has given the adversary power; but behold such shall be reclaimed; But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world. Wherefore, let every man beware lest he do that which is not in truth and righteousness before me. And now come, saith the Lord, by the Spirit, unto the elders of his church, and let us reason together, that ye may understand; Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face. Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasoneth as a man; even so will I, the Lord, reason with you that you may understand. Wherefore, I the Lord ask you this question—unto what were ye ordained? To preach my gospel by the Spirit, even the Comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth. And then received ye spirits which ye could not understand, and received them to be of God; and in this are ye justified? Behold ye shall answer this question yourselves; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto you; he that is weak among you hereafter shall be made strong. Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? And if it be by some other way it is not of God. And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? If it be some other way it is not of God. Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth? Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together. And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness. That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day. And again, verily I say unto you, and I say it that you may know the truth, that you may chase darkness from among you;" (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 50:1-25) In addition if one has the true gift of discernment then that gift should lead a person to the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, not any protestant or catholic or any other church claiming to be His but not authorized by Him. 1
The Nehor Posted December 9, 2012 Posted December 9, 2012 isn't there a scripture that says somewheres that everyone has a spiritual gift? obviously not everyone is LDS but give it time!No it says everyone who receives the Holy Ghost gets a spiritual gift. Some get one. Most get a few. A few get several. Rarely someone gets all of them.
volgadon Posted December 9, 2012 Posted December 9, 2012 (edited) I was in a class one time wherein the teacher, a convert who had served a mission, related how his non-member father gave him a blessing before he went on his mission, and much if not all of what his father said had come true. I was sort of uncomfortable with this because obviously his father didn't have the proper authority, but reasoned that it really wasn't my place to judge. Well someone else in the class had the presence of mind to ask the teacher what had become of his father, was he ever baptized? Oh yes, he said, he's now a stake patriarch. I wouldn't be surprised if God's gifts are generously distributed amongst all of his children.Well, even a non-member can act as patriarch to his family.I see Nathair beat me to it. Edited December 9, 2012 by volgadon 1
Tacenda Posted December 9, 2012 Posted December 9, 2012 For one thing, God does give some gifts to all of His children as they are worthy of it. A testimony of the Gospel is commonly given to those non-members who investigate the Church and are taught by the missionaries. They will receive according to the light and knowledge that they have. This being said, I do not believe the gift of the Holy Ghost can be found in any other Church. I do not believe in the so-called "faith healers" of other churches or the so-called miracles or signs produced by some other faiths. I also believe that not all "gifts of the spirit" are necessarily from God. As noted in the current Gospel Principles manual: I am sure this idea is rather unpopular on this board but it is one that has been held by the Church since the beginning. The Prophet Joseph taught about the false spirits that were abroad in the land. I would say that any spirit that led anyone away from the true Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) is a false spirit and is not of God. Even in the true Church there has been false spirits that plagued the Saints: In addition if one has the true gift of discernment then that gift should lead a person to the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, not any protestant or catholic or any other church claiming to be His but not authorized by Him.Some have even asserted JS was visited by a false spirit.
cinepro Posted December 9, 2012 Posted December 9, 2012 (edited) This caused me to wonder about "Gifts of the Spirit".How do we Latter day Saints, who claim sole Authority for the bestowal of the Holy Ghost as constant companion, explain that persons in other religions have "Gifts of the Spirit". And their lives are guided by the Spirit? (Admittedly, it would be terribly of us to think that God only answers the prayers of the LDS)I've expressed this before, but in regards to your story, I'm extremely skeptical that God would give revelation to other people to become pastors in non-LDS churches. If our claims about authority and ordinances are true, and if someone has that kind of communication channel with God, the message would more likely be along the lines of "Find the nearest LDS Church and join it". I really don't think he would encourage someone to join a false priesthood and teach impure doctrine and perform non-efficatious ordinances. Maybe in the days before the restoration, or in parts of the world not accessible to the LDS Church. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.And if He is doing that, I really feel sorry for the missionaries in that area who had given up two years of their lives and yet had God leading the locals to become ministers in other Churches, to effectively work against them.Mysterious ways indeed. Edited December 9, 2012 by cinepro 1
rodheadlee Posted December 9, 2012 Posted December 9, 2012 Some have even asserted JS was visited by a false spirit.So what is your point? A lot of people say a lot of things, it's called gossip. Do YOU think Joesph Smith was visited by a false spirit? 3
Tacenda Posted December 9, 2012 Posted December 9, 2012 So what is your point? A lot of people say a lot of things, it's called gossip. Do YOU think Joesph Smith was visited by a false spirit?Well I may be wrong but didn't Joseph say it was a false spirit when he was told to sell the BoM copyright? Or is that gossip? My thought on a false spirit visiting JS is that it's a possibility and it's what I've been grappling with for several years.
Calm Posted December 9, 2012 Posted December 9, 2012 (edited) Well I may be wrong but didn't Joseph say it was a false spirit when he was told to sell the BoM copyright? Or is that gossip? My thought on a false spirit visiting JS is that it's a possibility and it's what I've been grappling with for several years.http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Attempt_to_sell_copyrightThe primary evidence supporting the negative aspects of the Canadian Mission story come from David Whitmer, who was not a participant in the event, and who had left the church many years before. With the discovery of the Hiram Page letter of 1848 showing that the actual participants involved in the trip felt that Joseph Smith delivered an accurate revelation of what would transpire on the Mission, and in fact even found the event uplifting rather than negative, it is evident that no individual contemporary to the event felt that this represented a false prophecy by Joseph Smith. What we do see is excellent evidence in fulfillment of the teachings of Deuteronomy 12 and 18 that Joseph Smith was perceived as a true prophet of God by those involved in the Mission to Canada in early 1830....The criticism that Joseph later claimed that the revelation had not come from God is in all likelihood the product of a false memory by David Whitmer. Edited December 9, 2012 by calmoriah
Lightbearer Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 Well I may be wrong but didn't Joseph say it was a false spirit when he was told to sell the BoM copyright? Or is that gossip? My thought on a false spirit visiting JS is that it's a possibility and it's what I've been grappling with for several years.So in other words you think that Joseph is a false prophet? That God does not reveal Himself to the Church and that He does not have a restored church? If so I would say you are under the influence of a false spirit. Joseph was the choosen seer of the restoration, he was not a deluded false prophet as the enemies of truth would have us believe.
Tacenda Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) So in other words you think that Joseph is a false prophet? That God does not reveal Himself to the Church and that He does not have a restored church? If so I would say you are under the influence of a false spirit. Joseph was the choosen seer of the restoration, he was not a deluded false prophet as the enemies of truth would have us believe.I have no idea now. Ever since I stumbled onto info about JS that was unknown to me 6 yrs. ago and 50 yrs. of full paticipation in the LDS church, I've grappled. Edited December 10, 2012 by Tacenda
rodheadlee Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 Well I may be wrong but didn't Joseph say it was a false spirit when he was told to sell the BoM copyright? Or is that gossip? My thought on a false spirit visiting JS is that it's a possibility and it's what I've been grappling with for several years.I don't know, did he? Do you have a quote from Joseph Smith stating that he was visited by a false spirit?
Tacenda Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) I don't know, did he? Do you have a quote from Joseph Smith stating that he was visited by a false spirit?In post #16 Cal has provided a link to Fairmormon that now puts doubt as to if JS had actually been deceived by a false spirit. So therefore I've no quote to offer but in my further readings found that money was needed to finish the printing of the BoM and Hyrum was the one that urged JS to pray about selling the copyright in order to finish the printing of it.But the following scripture, gives reference to there being a possibility of a false spirit's capability to lead one astray. D & C 46:7 "But ye are commanded in all things to aask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all bholiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, cconsidering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and dthanksgiving, that ye may not be eseduced by evil fspirits, or doctrines of devils, or the gcommandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils." Edited December 10, 2012 by Tacenda
BookofMormonLuvr Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 I've expressed this before, but in regards to your story, I'm extremely skeptical that God would give revelation to other people to become pastors in non-LDS churches. If our claims about authority and ordinances are true, and if someone has that kind of communication channel with God, the message would more likely be along the lines of "Find the nearest LDS Church and join it". I really don't think he would encourage someone to join a false priesthood and teach impure doctrine and perform non-efficatious ordinances. Maybe in the days before the restoration, or in parts of the world not accessible to the LDS Church. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.And if He is doing that, I really feel sorry for the missionaries in that area who had given up two years of their lives and yet had God leading the locals to become ministers in other Churches, to effectively work against them.Mysterious ways indeed.I would disagree, I believe the folks in non-Restoration churches need good, God-fearing men to properly impart the portion(s) of truths that they do have, and He will lead those men to such positions.
rongo Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 Some have even asserted JS was visited by a false spirit.Interestingly, and despite this being a pretty obvious counter to Joseph Smith's claims, I have never actually seen a critic who would go so far as to claim that Joseph Smith had an actual visit from a false spirit, either. I think the reason for this is that that possibility is just as disturbing to the critic as a visit from a "true" spirit or angel, since their beliefs don't really allow for either in our day and age. It's not too far of a stretch to get from "false" spirit to "true" spirit, and if the question is simply whether it was a "good" or a "bad" spirit/angel, well, that kind of craziness can lead to all sorts of dangerous conclusions . . . Better to insist that he was a knowing or a pious fraud. 1
rongo Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 Well I may be wrong but didn't Joseph say it was a false spirit when he was told to sell the BoM copyright? Joseph's answer (as related by David Whitmer) was that "some revelations are of God, some revelations are of men, and some are of the devil." I think it's clear that this meant that the failure of the "Toronto revelation" was because it was a "revelation of man," not that it was "of the devil." The much bigger problem in our own discernment is usually our "self-revelations," not bona fide demonic revelations. Isn't it?
Kenngo1969 Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) Some have even asserted JS was visited by a false spirit.Those who assert this are either ignorant of the fact that Satan was also in the Grove, or they wish others to be ignorant of that fact because it advances whatever nefarious purpose they may have. Christ (you do trust Him, don't you? ) said that a house divided against itself cannot stand. In order to dismiss Joseph Smith's Sacred Grove experience, one must either conclude that: (a) the spirit which appeared in thick darkness which gathered around Joseph and "had such an astonishing influence" over Joseph "so as to bind [his] tongue" was actually a benevolent spirit, while the two beings who appeared to him bathed in light which was brighter than the noonday sun (and whose presence banished that of the influence which had bound his tongue) were actually malevolent spirits; or (b), Joseph Smith lied about the whole experience.Bottom line, the question remains: If Joseph Smith wasn't a liar but one has concluded that he was deceived, what was Satan doing in the Grove? Edited December 10, 2012 by Kenngo1969 1
DavidB Posted December 10, 2012 Author Posted December 10, 2012 "Joseph Smith, the Prophet visited by false spirits" can surely be a discussion for another thread.
cinepro Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) I would disagree, I believe the folks in non-Restoration churches need good, God-fearing men to properly impart the portion(s) of truths that they do have, and He will lead those men to such positions.If someone doesn't accept the Gospel and Ordinances as presented by LDS missionaries because God led them to another church and that church taught them Mormonism was evil, will they be held accountable for not accepting the Gospel? Edited December 10, 2012 by cinepro
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