Tithing Question

[fatherofone]

Started paying tithing and had a question, have not found an answer. Do you pay tithing on net or gross?

[mnn727]

That is between you and God. The Brethren have clarified that you pay 10% of your increase and defined increase as income. No one in the Church is authorized to tell you any thing else (though many will).

I would suggest prayer on this matter and decide what you feel your increase includes.

Many people will say gross income, others will say net income figuring that taxes they are forced to pay is not income and I even know someone that deducts interest he pays on his house as its income to the bank and not him.

People figure it many ways, please pray about it and come to an agreement with God, as long as you can tell the Bishop you pay an honest tithe, then that is all that is required.

Edited November 15, 2012 by mnn727

[fatherofone]

That is between you and God. The Brethren have clarified that you pay 10% of your increase and defined increase as income. No one in the Church is authorized to tell you any thing else (though many will).

I would suggest prayer on this matter and decided what you feel your increase includes.

Many people will say gross income, other net income figuring that taxes they are forced to pay is not income and I even know someone that deducts interest he pays on his house as its income to them not him.

People figure it many ways, please pray about it and come to an agreement with God, as long as you can tell the Bishop you pay an honest tithe, then that is all that is required.

Cool that helps, that explains why I could find anything that said one way or the other

[ERayR]

Started paying tithing and had a question, have not found an answer. Do you pay tithing on net or gross?

That has often been the topic of some long discussions. You pay on your increase. To me that means if you didn't have it when you started and you have it now you should pay tithing on it. To me that includes fringe benefits but not taxes withheld from wages. Others may disagree but it works for me.

[rpn]

Gross (but not receipts if it is a business, just profit) and that includes gifts and garden produce --- I just don't ever want to shortchange the Lord's portion. And I think it is all too easy to find rationalizations to do that. The reason I do not exclude taxes is because at least in theory I benefit from the taxes that support our government. (Though recently I had to think through how to pay on retirement funds, and think there is an argument not to pay on the FICA until you get it back in SS, and not to pay on money into the IRA, but on money as you get it back in distribution.)

Edited November 15, 2012 by rpn

[BCSpace]

and think there is an argument not to pay on the FICA until you get it back in SS, and not to pay on money into the IRA, but on money as you get it back in distribution.

I pay on gross but do completely agree with mnn727 in post #2. The problem I see with paying on gross including FICA is that one will likely get back in SS more than they paid in while working. Could be difficult to justify not paying tithing on SS when you start drawing it and difficult to calculate as well.

[mfbukowski]

Just wanted to say I agree with what's been said. It's up to you to define your "increase" and that's between you and God.

It becomes particularly difficult for the self-employed to do that and sometimes is only possible to do it after doing taxes, once a year. It happens. The best way to handle that is to start putting your estimated tithing it in an account of some kind like one does with estimated taxes, and pay as you go, then see how it all comes out at the end of the year.

After all, that was the way it was with farmers when the church started and everyone paid "in kind"- it's just the modern version of that. So the question is - what is your "increase"?

All I know is that you can't "overpay" the Lord!

Edited November 15, 2012 by mfbukowski

[canard78]

I embrace tithing and have always been a full tithe payer. This year I became an expat and I get a housing allowance (rents here are upwards of $2,000 per month).

Originally the company was going to pay my landlord directly, then switched and paid it to me and asked me to pay to the landlord.

I've been paying tithing on it for the last few months as it goes (quickly) through my account, but have been questioning whether this is excessive.

I've been considering halting the tithe on the housing allowance for a while. It's certainly not increase, but it is 'income' as it comes into my account.

I'm not asking you to make the call, but I'm interested in your feedback on the next bit: The thing stopping me is not some strong spiritual impression that I should pay, but the fear of the domino effect if I stop. Every time I consider reducing my tithe I hear the ringing sound of the line 'will a man rob God.'

I worry that if I reduce my tithing payment I will miss out on something or induce some calamity. It feels entirely irrational and approaching superstitious. It bothers me that I'm 'overpaying' out of fear/superstition. I'd welcome your perspectives.

[bluebell]

I embrace tithing and have always been a full tithe payer. This year I became an expat and I get a housing allowance (rents here are upwards of $2,000 per month).

Originally the company was going to pay my landlord directly, then switched and paid it to me and asked me to pay to the landlord.

I've been paying tithing on it for the last few months as it goes (quickly) through my account, but have been questioning whether this is excessive.

I've been considering halting the tithe on the housing allowance for a while. It's certainly not increase, but it is 'income' as it comes into my account.

I'm not asking you to make the call, but I'm interested in your feedback on the next bit: The thing stopping me is not some strong spiritual impression that I should pay, but the fear of the domino effect if I stop. Every time I consider reducing my tithe I hear the ringing sound of the line 'will a man rob God.'

I worry that if I reduce my tithing payment I will miss out on something or induce some calamity. It feels entirely irrational and approaching superstitious. It bothers me that I'm 'overpaying' out of fear/superstition. I'd welcome your perspectives.

I probably wouldn't pay tithing on such an allowance, because, to me (and this is only my opinion) all you are doing is acting as an agent to pay a bill in behalf of someone else.

The money isn't 'increase'. It's not even yours (as i understand it). the money is your company's, who gives it to you so that you can then meet their obligation.

Just my two cents.

[Tacenda]

I embrace tithing and have always been a full tithe payer. This year I became an expat and I get a housing allowance (rents here are upwards of $2,000 per month).

Originally the company was going to pay my landlord directly, then switched and paid it to me and asked me to pay to the landlord.

I've been paying tithing on it for the last few months as it goes (quickly) through my account, but have been questioning whether this is excessive.

I've been considering halting the tithe on the housing allowance for a while. It's certainly not increase, but it is 'income' as it comes into my account.

I'm not asking you to make the call, but I'm interested in your feedback on the next bit: The thing stopping me is not some strong spiritual impression that I should pay, but the fear of the domino effect if I stop. Every time I consider reducing my tithe I hear the ringing sound of the line 'will a man rob God.'

I worry that if I reduce my tithing payment I will miss out on something or induce some calamity. It feels entirely irrational and approaching superstitious. It bothers me that I'm 'overpaying' out of fear/superstition. I'd welcome your perspectives.

Would God build a mall that entices you to spend? Now everytime I think of that phrase "Let's Go Shopping" I think of some legitimate charities to send any money that's leftover. Although I am a full tithe payer it's not like it use to be.

I like the phrase that paying tithing is fire insurance, not! Read what the D&C says about it being your increase. It says nothing on gross, net etc.

I know that the City Creek Mall enhances the area around thd temple but wished my tithing money would go to building things to help the poor & suffering. I just received in the mail a thick glossy magazine like advertisement for City Creek full of ads. It's all too extravagent and there needs to be a balance. The low percentage of humanitarian payout is very low over a span of years compared to the money coming in. I just think we as a church could balance it out by spending the same for the needy out there. All my married life my husband would pass on paying to some charities because we pay tithing. I wonder if alot of LDS do this. Canard, I know it sounds way too negative, my input but I was Just trying to help lesson some of that guilt.

[ControlFreak]

What's always bothered me is that people say "gross" as if that is an obvious number. If you pay on social security and 401k contributions (prior to withdrawal), do you also pay your employers matching portions? If you pay on health insurance premiums, your employer probably kicks in a huge chunk for that too. How about other benefits that you aren't directly paid for, such as gifts. My company just have me a personal iPad (yay), should I tithe on it?

Not arguing either side, just pointing out that it isn't clean and easy one way and full of rationalizations the other. It is a complex issue that each person should evaluate carefully.

[bluebell]

I know that the City Creek Mall enhances the area around thd temple but wished my tithing money would go to building things to help the poor & suffering. I just received in the mail a thick glossy magazine like advertisement for City Creek full of ads. It's all too extravagent and there needs to be a balance. The low percentage of humanitarian payout is very low over a span of years compared to the money coming in. I just think we as a church could balance it out by spending the same for the needy out there. All my married life my husband would pass on paying to some charities because we pay tithing. I wonder if alot of LDS do this. Canard, I know it sounds way too negative, my input but I was Just trying to help lesson some of that guilt.

The church has repeatedly stated that no tithing funds were used in the building of the mall.

[Tacenda]

The church has repeatedly stated that no tithing funds were used in the building of the mall.

I've heard different from some that know insiders. But I'm not going by that I'm going by the original tithe of our ancestors. Without it there couldn't be all the business ventures the church now operates. I understand it is a good thing as long as it gives as much to the needy also since that is the 4th item on the churches fourfold mission.

[rpn]

In the case of the housing allowance, I would pay tithing only on that amount of the rent that I would have paid if I had not taken the expat job. The rest is not increase, but because you are in a more expensive place as part of the job itself. It is like reimbursed expenses.

Edited November 16, 2012 by rpn

[Freedom]

When I pay taxes, I see it as just another expense like buying milk. I pay tithing on what I legaly have to claim as income because this is my increase. I do not pay tithing on gifts. When one of my children go married, they would have had to get out a loan to pay tithing on the value of their gifts. Gifts are not earned.

[ERMD]

The $2000 you're spending (in essence) on housing gives you $2000 to spend on other things.

I would consider it increase.

[Mark Beesley]

Another Tithing Question:

When is the Church going to start letting the general membership of the Church pay tithing and make other donations online? I am now writing a single check, and that is for tithing and other donations. Everything else I do electronically. I believe the Church allows online donations for some, such as overseas military. Why not fine tune the system and make it available Church wide?

[bluebell]

Another Tithing Question:

When is the Church going to start letting the general membership of the Church pay tithing and make other donations online? I am now writing a single check, and that is for tithing and other donations. Everything else I do electronically. I believe the Church allows online donations for some, such as overseas military. Why not fine tune the system and make it available Church wide?

You can pay tithing online directly to Salt Lake City through your bank's online bill pay system. You just have to email the church to get it set up. (I used to have the email address but don't anymore, sorry).

They don't really like to do it that way though. I think it's because they would rather tithing go throught ward for some reason.

[thesometimesaint]

Would God build a mall that entices you to spend? Now everytime I think of that phrase "Let's Go Shopping" I think of some legitimate charities to send any money that's leftover. Although I am a full tithe payer it's not like it use to be.

I like the phrase that paying tithing is fire insurance, not! Read what the D&C says about it being your increase. It says nothing on gross, net etc.

I know that the City Creek Mall enhances the area around thd temple but wished my tithing money would go to building things to help the poor & suffering. I just received in the mail a thick glossy magazine like advertisement for City Creek full of ads. It's all too extravagent and there needs to be a balance. The low percentage of humanitarian payout is very low over a span of years compared to the money coming in. I just think we as a church could balance it out by spending the same for the needy out there. All my married life my husband would pass on paying to some charities because we pay tithing. I wonder if alot of LDS do this. Canard, I know it sounds way too negative, my input but I was Just trying to help lesson some of that guilt.

No tithing funds were used to build the mall.

My wife and I contribute to charities inside and outside of the Church. I feel we're blessed for both.

[mfbukowski]

Another Tithing Question:

When is the Church going to start letting the general membership of the Church pay tithing and make other donations online? I am now writing a single check, and that is for tithing and other donations. Everything else I do electronically. I believe the Church allows online donations for some, such as overseas military. Why not fine tune the system and make it available Church wide?

I suppose it's possible but it would make it complicated for the Bishop to print out your personal tithing and for you to get "credit" for it on a local level and for you to be assured that ever dollar you put in gets credited to your personal "account". Really that is what it would take- a bank-like accounting system which would allow for checks and cash and children's 25 cent tithing donations to end up in the same series of "accounts" within the family's "account" etc. All that ends up coming in on line AND every cash and coin donation would have to go into the individual's personal account from multiple sources and have proper reporting for each donation which was accessible to the Bishop. Not that easy.

Obviously those are surmountable problems with computer systems but I think it would require the entire church donation accounting system to be revamped, so my guess is not to expect it until the church gets around to a new accounting system.

Just my take on it. And then the paper trails would have to be auditable for the Stake to audit it all- another nightmare for auditors.

Possible, but not tomorrow morning.

[mfbukowski]

No tithing funds were used to build the mall.

I really wish people would quit complaining about this and understand that about the best, safest, and most lucrative investment out there right now is cash flow real estate.

Let's keep it simple. You have a million dollars to invest. You pay cash for a small (or large) shopping center. The tenants usually pay for improvements, property tax, and other expenses. Since you paid cash, you have no mortgage or anything else to pay. The worst of the real estate crash is over so the value of the property is not likely to go down, unless the entire economy crashes and there's a revolution and literally blood in the streets.

So you are making cash flow on the rents your tenants pay and have no expenses, and the value of the real estate secures your investment. That real estate is not going to go to zero value like potentially stocks and mutual funds theoretically could. You can make a very safe 7-9 % with virtually no risk.

Where else can you get a return like that?

Is the church supposed to put tithing funds under a mattress in green cash? Of course not! All the government does is print more paper making the value of the paper less every day.

As far as I am concerned, I wish the church would put every dollar of tithing I pay into cash flow commercial real estate investments. That is absolutely the smartest thing they can do with The Lord's money right now. Are they supposed to be good stewards? They could not do better than they are doing!

(and maybe buy a little silver..... but that is another story....)

[Storm Rider]

I really wish people would quit complaining about this and understand that about the best, safest, and most lucrative investment out there right now is cash flow real estate.

Let's keep it simple. You have a million dollars to invest. You pay cash for a small (or large) shopping center. The tenants usually pay for improvements, property tax, and other expenses. Since you paid cash, you have no mortgage or anything else to pay. The worst of the real estate crash is over so the value of the property is not likely to go down, unless the entire economy crashes and there's a revolution and literally blood in the streets.

So you are making cash flow on the rents your tenants pay and have no expenses, and the value of the real estate secures your investment. That real estate is not going to go to zero value like potentially stocks and mutual funds theoretically could. You can make a very safe 7-9 % with virtually no risk.

Where else can you get a return like that?

Is the church supposed to put tithing funds under a mattress in green cash? Of course not! All the government does is print more paper making the value of the paper less every day.

As far as I am concerned, I wish the church would put every dollar of tithing I pay into cash flow commercial real estate investments. That is absolutely the smartest thing they can do with The Lord's money right now. Are they supposed to be good stewards? They could not do better than they are doing!

(and maybe buy a little silver..... but that is another story....)

The reality is that people will always find a reason to complain. The full gist of what they are saying is, "I want to pay tithing only if I can control exactly where it goes", "No one know what the Lord wants more than I do", "I am a far better judge than stupid old men in SLC", etc. etc. etc. The spirit of apostasy is very real and anyone can be affected by it. Here is the deal, if you don't want to pay tithing, don't pay it. If you think you know how to control tithing funds better than Church leaders, set up your own gig and tell people that you are more qualified to spend tithing funds and see how many want to give you their money. When the funds roll in, give an accounting for those funds to God and see how pleased he is with your choices. If, on the rare occasion that you find a degree of humility, send your money to the Church and know with a surety if someone abuses tithing funds they will answer to God Almighty. Nothing I do or say will be as effective as having to account to God what has been done with his funds. I think God I don't have to account in the same way Church leaders do for tithing funds. For the life of me, I don't know why anyone would ever want to, yet we see it all the time with those who will complain about how tithing funds are handled.

[ERayR]

I've heard different from some that know insiders. But I'm not going by that I'm going by the original tithe of our ancestors. Without it there couldn't be all the business ventures the church now operates. I understand it is a good thing as long as it gives as much to the needy also since that is the 4th item on the churches fourfold mission.

I guess you haven't heard, a lot of very wealthy people leave their estates to the church. That isn't tithing. I have some very good sources too. My cousins wifes, uncles mother-in-law is the janitor in the church office building and gets to wander through the offices at night. Know what I mean.

[Mark Beesley]

I suppose it's possible but it would make it complicated for the Bishop to print out your personal tithing and for you to get "credit" for it on a local level and for you to be assured that ever dollar you put in gets credited to your personal "account". Really that is what it would take- a bank-like accounting system which would allow for checks and cash and children's 25 cent tithing donations to end up in the same series of "accounts" within the family's "account" etc. All that ends up coming in on line AND every cash and coin donation would have to go into the individual's personal account from multiple sources and have proper reporting for each donation which was accessible to the Bishop. Not that easy.

Obviously those are surmountable problems with computer systems but I think it would require the entire church donation accounting system to be revamped, so my guess is not to expect it until the church gets around to a new accounting system.

Just my take on it. And then the paper trails would have to be auditable for the Stake to audit it all- another nightmare for auditors.

Possible, but not tomorrow morning.

It seems like the Church could integrate a donation module into the each member's lds.org personal account that we use to sign on. It is already linked to our membership number.

I don't like the idea of paying through my bank's billpay module because there is no way to segregate the amounts to the different funds that we donate to, and it would also increase the manpower needed in SL to process payments received that way.

I wonder if there is another reason the Church doesn't move in that direction, having to do with wanting to keep the payment of tithing and donations on a more personal level.

[canard78]

Thanks for the feedback on the housing allowance.

I was also interested in the last bit. The 'irrational fear.'

Are tithing blessings on a sliding scale? Will the windows of heaven open any wider for a man who pays on gross not net?