Tithing Question

[sdc999]

I really wish people would quit complaining about this and understand that about the best, safest, and most lucrative investment out there right now is cash flow real estate.

Let's keep it simple. You have a million dollars to invest. You pay cash for a small (or large) shopping center. The tenants usually pay for improvements, property tax, and other expenses. Since you paid cash, you have no mortgage or anything else to pay. The worst of the real estate crash is over so the value of the property is not likely to go down, unless the entire economy crashes and there's a revolution and literally blood in the streets.

So you are making cash flow on the rents your tenants pay and have no expenses, and the value of the real estate secures your investment. That real estate is not going to go to zero value like potentially stocks and mutual funds theoretically could. You can make a very safe 7-9 % with virtually no risk.

Where else can you get a return like that?

Is the church supposed to put tithing funds under a mattress in green cash? Of course not! All the government does is print more paper making the value of the paper less every day.

As far as I am concerned, I wish the church would put every dollar of tithing I pay into cash flow commercial real estate investments. That is absolutely the smartest thing they can do with The Lord's money right now. Are they supposed to be good stewards? They could not do better than they are doing!

(and maybe buy a little silver..... but that is another story....)

Every dollar???? Then wouldn't that just make the church one big investment institution. That would also add another mission of the church. To amass treasures to be built up on earth where moth and dust corrupt! The Lord wouldn't want them taking care of the poor, the needy? I agree that any institution should show fiscal responsiblily (yes, that includes saving some for a rainy day), but the church possesses the amazing ability to make tremendous differences in the world, and your comments suggest, no - keep it all to ourselves.

[bluebell]

Every dollar???? Then wouldn't that just make the church one big investment institution. That would also add another mission of the church. To amass treasures to be built up on earth where moth and dust corrupt! The Lord wouldn't want them taking care of the poor, the needy? I agree that any institution should show fiscal responsiblily (yes, that includes saving some for a rainy day), but the church possesses the amazing ability to make tremendous differences in the world, and your comments suggest, no - keep it all to ourselves.

I don't think that's what mfb is saying.

[bluebell]

Thanks for the feedback on the housing allowance.

I was also interested in the last bit. The 'irrational fear.'

Are tithing blessings on a sliding scale? Will the windows of heaven open any wider for a man who pays on gross not net?

I don't believe so.

[mfbukowski]

Every dollar???? Then wouldn't that just make the church one big investment institution. That would also add another mission of the church. To amass treasures to be built up on earth where moth and dust corrupt! The Lord wouldn't want them taking care of the poor, the needy? I agree that any institution should show fiscal responsiblily (yes, that includes saving some for a rainy day), but the church possesses the amazing ability to make tremendous differences in the world, and your comments suggest, no - keep it all to ourselves.

Duh.

You see they can invest the growth or as some call it "interest" in doing whatever they decide. And what is necessary to use to make the world a better place- great- do it.

But guess what- building a zion society is going to also cost some bucks and will essentially be a nation state. That requires some capital.

[mfbukowski]

I guess you haven't heard, a lot of very wealthy people leave their estates to the church. That isn't tithing. I have some very good sources too. My cousins wifes, uncles mother-in-law is the janitor in the church office building and gets to wander through the offices at night. Know what I mean.

You mean he was the janitor until you posted that.

[rpn]

See that's the thing. You only get credit for tithing appropriately. Not for giving more. (If you want to give more than tithing, give to Fast offerings, perpetual ed fund or humanitarian fund.) Just for giving the right amount. And it has as much to do with your heart and intent (what you are thinking when you decide what is increase) as it does about the choice you make.

[Calm]

I guess you haven't heard, a lot of very wealthy people leave their estates to the church. That isn't tithing. I have some very good sources too. My cousins wifes, uncles mother-in-law is the janitor in the church office building and gets to wander through the offices at night. Know what I mean.

Then there was the property the Church got due to settling the area.

[Calm]

I guess you haven't heard, a lot of very wealthy people leave their estates to the church. That isn't tithing. I have some very good sources too. My cousins wifes, uncles mother-in-law is the janitor in the church office building and gets to wander through the offices at night. Know what I mean.

My husband's grandfather was a janitor for the church offices way back when. Used to be a Christian Scientist and would tease the GAs about healing themselves among other thigns.

[Calm]

You only get credit for tithing appropriately.

Credit in what sense? I think the Lord would be pleased with those who give generous tithes as opposed to those who are so concerned not to give a penny more than is required by commandment. Perhaps I am not understanding your point. Edited November 17, 2012 by calmoriah

[Svawd]

The mall was built from the investments of tithing. So it's fair to say the mall was built from tithing.

[bluebell]

The mall was built from the investments of tithing. So it's fair to say the mall was built from tithing.

CFR.

[ERayR]

You mean he was the janitor until you posted that.

OOPS

[ERayR]

The mall was built from the investments of tithing. So it's fair to say the mall was built from tithing.

CFR on that. As I have pointed out many people leave large estates to the church.

[Svawd]

Ok let me change my statement,The mall was built by the investments of other,and not tithing.

[thesometimesaint]

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-financial-independence?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LDSNewsRoomTop15+%28RSS%3A+LDS+Newsroom%29

[telnetd]

I have confidence in giving portions of my tithe to various organization that

are credited by CCCC. My brother sees churches in a less favourable light

(i.e. as thieves) so I tell him to withhold all the money that he would give to

them and instead spend the money directly himself for the poor.

Gail

[thesometimesaint]

The is still a violation of the law of the tithe.

[bluebell]

I have confidence in giving portions of my tithe to various organization that

are credited by CCCC. My brother sees churches in a less favourable light

(i.e. as thieves) so I tell him to withhold all the money that he would give to

them and instead spend the money directly himself for the poor.

Gail

I respect people who take part of their income and put it towards charity, i truly do. But that's not tithing. Tithing is returning a percentage of the Lord's money to Him. When we set the conditions for how we will give money to Him, we're not returning what is already His, we are keeping it to do what WE want with it.

It's no different than owing money to a bank and instead of paying it to the bank, taking the exact same amount and giving it to some guy on the street for his own car payment. It's a very nice thing to do, but doing that does NOT satisfy the obligation you have to the bank in the least.

When we take tithing and give it to a charity, it's a very nice thing to do, but it does not satisfy the obligation that we have to the Lord.

[rpn]

I was responding to the question about whether you get more points (in heaven or whatever --- the post didn't flesh that out) for giving more. And I don't think the Lord will think you more generous for giving 10.2% for tithing. Tithe is a tithe. If you are trying to be generous with Heavenly Father by returning more of it to Him to use for His purposes, give it one of the other categories or in other.

[Hamba Tuhan]

When is the Church going to start letting the general membership of the Church pay tithing and make other donations online?

You just live in the wrong place. Where I live, we've been online with donations for about 3 years now. Each Church member is issued with a card with a unique 'payer code', and then we have different codes for tithing, fast offering, missionary fund, etc. For those who have regular pay packets (which does not include me), one can set it up so that transfers occur automatically. With my bank, I have a screen which allows me to transfer funds to various Church accounts, pay my phone bill, etc., all in a single transaction.

I suspect the difference for American Saints may be in the banking systems. For example, here we're able to transfer funds to other people's accounts online, but, when I lived in the US, nothing like that existed.

Records of whatever I do online are automatically downloaded to the computer in the clerk's office and show up in the system just like for those who continue to pay with cash or cheques. (Being in the bishopric, I wish everyone paid online!)

[canard78]

You just live in the wrong place. Where I live, we've been online with donations for about 3 years now. Each Church member is issued with a card with a unique 'payer code', and then we have different codes for tithing, fast offering, missionary fund, etc. For those who have regular pay packets (which does not include me), one can set it up so that transfers occur automatically. With my bank, I have a screen which allows me to transfer funds to various Church accounts, pay my phone bill, etc., all in a single transaction.

I suspect the difference for American Saints may be in the banking systems. For example, here we're able to transfer funds to other people's accounts online, but, when I lived in the US, nothing like that existed.

Records of whatever I do online are automatically downloaded to the computer in the clerk's office and show up in the system just like for those who continue to pay with cash or cheques. (Being in the bishopric, I wish everyone paid online!)

In UK there is a very efficient system called 'Gift Aid' (used to be 'Deed of covenant'). It's a system where you set up a bank transfer direct to UK head office.

It's declared in your tax return as a charitable donation. As such, you pay on Gross salary, but deduct 22% (I.e. 7.8% of gross, before taxes) - the church then claims the difference from the government out of your tax contributions at the end of the year. The added benefit is the church get to claim back 28% so actually finish better off.

Everyone's happy... Clerks have less work on Sunday, members have less hassle in payments (while also offsetting some of their tax bill) and the church finishes with more money in their contributions than under the traditional system.

(The church in UK also has to publish its finances, unlike USA, which makes for some interesting reading).

Edited November 19, 2012 by canard78

[Stargazer]

When I pay taxes, I see it as just another expense like buying milk. I pay tithing on what I legaly have to claim as income because this is my increase. I do not pay tithing on gifts. When one of my children go married, they would have had to get out a loan to pay tithing on the value of their gifts. Gifts are not earned.

That's pretty much my take on it, too.

I treat it as if it were a business (because my business is selling my labor -- or is that labour?). I tithe on the net of gross income minus obligatory taxes, since the taxes are a "cost of doing business" that I pay because I earn my salary. This includes social security taxes, which, when I retire, I will receive back, at which time I will tithe them.

[Calm]

I was responding to the question about whether you get more points (in heaven or whatever --- the post didn't flesh that out) for giving more. And I don't think the Lord will think you more generous for giving 10.2% for tithing. Tithe is a tithe. If you are trying to be generous with Heavenly Father by returning more of it to Him to use for His purposes, give it one of the other categories or in other.

isn't tithing specifically for the building up of the Kingdom? If one wants to be more fully engaged in helping the Church fulfill that particular mission, why not contribute more tithing?

I remember some leadership using the phrase "generous tithes"...I will have to go see if I can come up with anything that expresses this idea as something besides my own.

Found this: https://www.lds.org/...ter-13?lang=eng

I am a firm believer that faith without works is dead, and I am a firm believer that the Lord meant what He said when He promised to open the windows of heaven and pour down a blessing on us if we would pay our tithing [see Malachi 3:10].11

I believe that people are blessed in proportion to their liberality. I am not saying that they always make more dollars, perhaps, than the other man. But so far as an increase in the faith and in the testimony and the knowledge of the divinity of the work in which we are engaged, men that are honest with the Lord in the payment of their tithing grow as men never grow that are not honest. There is no question in my mind. Moreover, I am just foolish enough to believe that the Lord magnifies those who do pay their tithing and that they are more prosperous, on the average, than the men who do not. I believe that to those who are liberal [with their donations] the Lord gives ideas, and they grow in capacity and ability more rapidly than those that are stingy. I have that faith, and I have had it from the time I was a boy....

We should be generous in using our financial blessings to help build the kingdom of God on the earth.

PS: I am not intending to imply that if we are more righteous we wil give more tithes or anything like that. I just don't see it as a problem if people have extra funds and after giving fast offerings, simply decide to give the extra in the tithing category (rather than specifying a use) with the idea that the Church leadership will know where it is most needed. I think the Lord will understand the intent of giving extra funds into tithing after paying our 10% if the point is to contribute to his work as opposed to thinking that they are going to the head of the line by paying more than others do (percentagewise). I don't see why they wouldn't be as blessed for paying into the tithing fund with their extra donations as they would to pay it into the missionary or other fund.

Edited November 19, 2012 by calmoriah

[theplains]

When we take tithing and give it to a charity, it's a very nice thing to do, but it does not satisfy the obligation that we have to the Lord.

Is it a sin for you to give your tithe to support someone like a Mother Theresa or some of the other nameless and selfless

missionaries or does your church want to receive the tithe directly from you so that it can decide how to spend it?

Regards,

Jim

[canard78]

Is it a sin for you to give your tithe to support someone like a Mother Theresa or some of the other nameless and selfless

missionaries or does your church want to receive the tithe directly from you so that it can decide how to spend it?

Regards,

Jim

I guess 'yes' would be the short but complicated answer. There is a clear definition of 'tithing' - 10% to the church. Beyond that, additional contributions are at your discretion.

The long answer is... There is room in some scripture (canonised doctrine, not policy or interpretation) to say it's 10% given to the Lord.

D&C 119:3-4, “This shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever” - "pay one-tenth" - but it doesn't categorically say "to the church"

Hebrews 7 talks about Abraham paying tithes TO Melchizedek (but there was no church then).

Mal 3:10 "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house..." Is the Lord storehouse today "the church."

I guess in all the above you could argue that the Lord doesn't specifically say the 10% has to be given to the church to be valid.

But, given it's tithing settlement time I doubt my Bishop would see it that way! Which is why I said the short answer is that Yes, it would be seen by most leaders as a sin of omission and enough to deny a temple recommend. Ask your Bishop, if you have issues with how the church uses it at the moment he may be fine with a (partial) redistribution.