Rob Osborn Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 I am interested in peoples opinions on what these two words mean and entail. These two words are repeated more than any other in the scriptures concerning the plan of salvation. In many instances though, it appears these two words create a lot of confusion as to how it applies in context of scripture. If you ask this in Sunday school you may get half a dozen different answers. I believe a lot of the confusion stems from how one interprets scripture in light of the LDS doctrine concerning the plan of salvation.We can discuss in detail my own views later but I am really interested in your opinions and answers. My simple definition is that to be saved means to be saved from hell into heaven while to be damned means to be condemned to hell either temporarily or permanently.
Saints Alive Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 I like LDS.org definition of being saved / salvation. You must know what the passage is referring to to know what type of salvation is being talked about (i.e. saved from death, exaltation, etc.) Damned on the other hand, as a former bishop taught me in YMs one time, means that progression is stopped. Satan was damned and can have no more increase or progression. 1
Rob Osborn Posted October 31, 2012 Author Posted October 31, 2012 I like LDS.org definition of being saved / salvation. You must know what the passage is referring to to know what type of salvation is being talked about (i.e. saved from death, exaltation, etc.) Damned on the other hand, as a former bishop taught me in YMs one time, means that progression is stopped. Satan was damned and can have no more increase or progression.When you say "progression is stopped" do you apply this only to those in hell or also for lower glories?
Saints Alive Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 Never really thought about it but I suppose it could apply to anyone in any degree of glory. 1
Duncan Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 you're saved if you didn't sell Lucasfilm to Disney and you're damned if you did, Bible says 4
Rob Osborn Posted October 31, 2012 Author Posted October 31, 2012 I am interested in the way we define how one is damned. Here is the verb form of the word " dam" and how it is used. It appears we have adopted this definition of a word pronounced the same but yet different in meaning-"Dam suggests obstruction of the flow, progress, or release of something: She dammed the brook to form a pool. He dammed up his emotions."The word "damned" s defined by the dictionary-"1. Condemned, especially to eternal punishment."What changed or transpired in lds doctrine for us to adopt the definition o "dam" and apply it in place of "damned"?
rpn Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 Damned just means stopped in progressing, by sin. Saved means resurrected (though there are qualifiers in it use in many scriptures which would give the word a different meaning).
rodheadlee Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 To me being damned means being cut of for all eternity from the presence of God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit my wife and my family. To be saved would be the opposite. Somewhere in between would be the Terrestial and Telestial Kingdom. 1
CV75 Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 it appears these two words create a lot of confusion as to how it applies in context of scripture.Briefly: Saved can mean rescued through the blood of Christ, according to one’s degree of acceptance of Him, from death and hell in all their forms, mortal and immortal, physical and spiritual. Damned can mean not rescued through the blood of Christ, according to one’s degree of rejection of Him, from death and hell in all their forms, mortal and immortal, physical and spiritual.The many forms of death typically relate to the destruction or mortal life and include but are not limited to: separation of body and spirit, illness, handicap, addiction and any other mortal trial and tribulation which if left unattended and taken to its logical conclusion would result in physical death (poverty, ignorance, slavery, etc.).Spiritual death is another form of death (described below as hell), so the terms “death” and “hell” can often mean the same thing and occur concurrently both in this world and the next. While physical death ends with the resurrection, spiritual death can be experienced in this life and the next. While people may suffer horribly in this life, they may still rejoice in an abundant spiritual life.The many forms of hell typically relate to the destruction of spiritual life and include but are not limited to: separation from God’s gifts and influence (the light of Christ, the power of Holy Ghost), rejection of His Gospel (the gift of the Holy Ghost, Priesthood, covenants, etc.), the psychic suffering of the wicked, the rejection or loss of divine light and glory, psychic enslavement to addictions, taking pleasure in wickedness, and any other form of rebellion which if left un-repented of and taken to its logical conclusion would result in spirit prison and in some severe cases permanent spiritual perdition in the afterlife.This is not exhaustive--in a way, a lesser degree of glory might be a form of hell to someone who had higher but less humble ambitions.
Rob Osborn Posted October 31, 2012 Author Posted October 31, 2012 Are there any scriptures that would support the definition of damned as being "stopped in ones progress" or being in a lesser degree of glory?
CV75 Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 Are there any scriptures that would support the definition of damned as being "stopped in ones progress" or being in a lesser degree of glory?D&C 132: verse 4 (damned is not entering into the Lord’s glory, but another per D&C 76); verse 6 (“a fullness of my glory” implies there is less, which can also be received and kept, which is as “damned” as not keeping “a fullness”). Verse 27 uses “damned” as perdition, which is a different condition with a different cause from those mentioned in verses 4 and 6.Mormon 9: 4 and 14, referring to the damned souls in hell after the resurrection, describes them as “he that is filthy shall be filthy still,” meaning they are stopped in their progress toward happiness. Verse 20 described them as dwindling (not progressing) and ceasing to have miracles done among them. Verses 23-onward indicate that the damned have not progressed from doubt to belief (from un-repentance to repentance) and were unable to “endure (progress) to the end.”Compare the above with Mark 16:16-18, where the damned do not progress (of special note, “speak with new tongues”) to be able to do the things the faithful can.Romans 14:23, those that do not act in faith are damned in that that they remain in doubt and sin.2 Thessalonians 2:12 (see verse 10), the damned perish, which is the opposite of words like develop, revive, flourish, grow, improve and other evidences and forms of progress. See 2 Nephi 9: 24-39 for other descriptors of the damned that indicate an inability to progress: they do not profit, they perish, they die, they remain, etc.Alma 36 speaks of the pains of a damned soul preferring to be banished or extinct—no progress there.3 Nephi 11:34-40, the damned do not receive the things that will cause their souls to expand (reference Alma 40) and do not build on a sure foundation (and thus fail, not progress).Mormon 2:13, 14, the damned wish to die (or end, terminate, not progress).Ether 4:18, signs of life (progress) do not follow the damned. See D&C 68:9, 10 as well.D&C 42:60, 61 speaks of the damned not receiving more (progressing).D&C 46 24-26, Zion and Jacob flourish, and the Lamanites blossom, unlike the damned (verse 5).D&C 58:29, the damned do nothing.Alma 34:33, “And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.”If Christ received grace for grace (D&C 93) and grants this to His followers; the opposite of that (damnation) would be no grace for grace, or in other words, no progress.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 you're saved if you didn't sell Lucasfilm to Disney and you're damned if you did, Bible saysWell. Hopefully we wont get any stupid characters like Jar Jar binks are really bad acting like little Anikin. 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) Are there any scriptures that would support the definition of damned as being "stopped in ones progress" or being in a lesser degree of glory?Are there scriptures that say that you can keep progressing in lower degrees. D&C 132 seems to give a pretty go idea as to what Eternal Progression is. That those that don't obtain the highest do not have an enternal increase and are damned to a certain extent. "Worlds with out end" and all that. Edited October 31, 2012 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
Damien the Leper Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 Rather than provide definitions, I decided to provide real examples.A saved person.A damned person. 1
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 I am interested in peoples opinions on what these two words mean and entail. These two words are repeated more than any other in the scriptures concerning the plan of salvation. In many instances though, it appears these two words create a lot of confusion as to how it applies in context of scripture. If you ask this in Sunday school you may get half a dozen different answers. I believe a lot of the confusion stems from how one interprets scripture in light of the LDS doctrine concerning the plan of salvation.We can discuss in detail my own views later but I am really interested in your opinions and answers. My simple definition is that to be saved means to be saved from hell into heaven while to be damned means to be condemned to hell either temporarily or permanently.One lives East of the Mississippi and the other to the West...I will let you decide which
CV75 Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 Couple more scriptures:Regarding degrees: D&C 63:66, “a more exceeding weight… of glory” and “greater condemnation.” Note John 3:17 equates “condemned” with “damned” in that it used the same way “damned” is in relation to “saved.”D&C 82:3, “For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.”Regarding no progress:Mosiah 24:25-30 shows that the condemned/damned do not “continue in the faith” and do the things the saved do to retain a remission of their sins.Alma 12:13-18 shows that the condemned are under the power and captivity of the devil (the opposite of grace), a condition where progress cannot be made. Verse 36 mentions everlasting destruction of the soul.D&C 93 says a lot about it: Every man whose spirit receives not the light (verses 31, 32) is under condemnation as opposed to the pattern of progress epitomized in Jesus (verses 12-14) and reflected in those who receive it (verses 18-20).
Rob Osborn Posted October 31, 2012 Author Posted October 31, 2012 D&C 132: verse 4 (damned is not entering into the Lord’s glory, but another per D&C 76); verse 6 (“a fullness of my glory” implies there is less, which can also be received and kept, which is as “damned” as not keeping “a fullness”). Verse 27 uses “damned” as perdition, which is a different condition with a different cause from those mentioned in verses 4 and 6.These verses in section 132 are meant in the context of being condemned to hell temporarily after their mortal lives. The caution here is that those who enter into the new and everlasting covenant shall abide by the law given and that disobedience to it delivers one over to the buffettings of Satan in hell (see verse 26-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the aHoly Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they bcommit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be cdelivered unto the buffetings of dSatan unto the day of eredemption, saith the Lord God.Mormon 9: 4 and 14, referring to the damned souls in hell after the resurrection, describes them as “he that is filthy shall be filthy still,” meaning they are stopped in their progress toward happiness. Verse 20 described them as dwindling (not progressing) and ceasing to have miracles done among them. Verses 23-onward indicate that the damned have not progressed from doubt to belief (from un-repentance to repentance) and were unable to “endure (progress) to the end.”Compare the above with Mark 16:16-18, where the damned do not progress (of special note, “speak with new tongues”) to be able to do the things the faithful can.Romans 14:23, those that do not act in faith are damned in that that they remain in doubt and sin.2 Thessalonians 2:12 (see verse 10), the damned perish, which is the opposite of words like develop, revive, flourish, grow, improve and other evidences and forms of progress. See 2 Nephi 9: 24-39 for other descriptors of the damned that indicate an inability to progress: they do not profit, they perish, they die, they remain, etc.Alma 36 speaks of the pains of a damned soul preferring to be banished or extinct—no progress there.3 Nephi 11:34-40, the damned do not receive the things that will cause their souls to expand (reference Alma 40) and do not build on a sure foundation (and thus fail, not progress).Mormon 2:13, 14, the damned wish to die (or end, terminate, not progress).Ether 4:18, signs of life (progress) do not follow the damned. See D&C 68:9, 10 as well.D&C 42:60, 61 speaks of the damned not receiving more (progressing).D&C 46 24-26, Zion and Jacob flourish, and the Lamanites blossom, unlike the damned (verse 5).D&C 58:29, the damned do nothing.Alma 34:33, “And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.”If Christ received grace for grace (D&C 93) and grants this to His followers; the opposite of that (damnation) would be no grace for grace, or in other words, no progress.But the definition of damned is to be condemned to hell in my opinion. Being stopped in ones progression is a result of the condemnation (being damned). I say this in this light- a wrongly convicted soul who goes to jail is not under eternal condemnation and thus is not a soul defined as being "damned" even though his progress in jail is severely hindered. We do not say that wrongly convicted murderers are or ever were "damned", only that they were limited for a time even if it was done unjustly. Take handicapped people for instance- even though their progress is hindered, limited, etc, we do not define this as being "damned". "Damned" is a word that defines the specific state of one who is condemned either to a future hell or who is already in hell. Of note, being "damned" is and must always be associated with the condemnation of one who is in hell.So when I read verses like D&C 132:4 I must define it as such-4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting acovenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye bdamned to hell; for no one can creject this covenant after already entering into it and be permitted to enter into my glory.
Ahab Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 My simple definition is that to be saved means to be saved from hell into heaven while to be damned means to be condemned to hell either temporarily or permanently.My simple definition of being saved is to be saved from a sinful condition and instead made clean, which is the reason someone who has been saved wouldn't need to go through hell... or any more hell if they went to hell to pay the price for their sins and then were made clean after suffering for them.To go even further I'd say that heaven is divided into 3 main orders or categories, known as the Celestial, Terrrestrial, and Telestial, with each of those orders having several degrees of glory (intelligence or intelligent people) within them. My simple definition of being damned is the same as yours, it seems, to be condemned to hell either temporarily or permanently.Hell is a place where a person suffers for their own sins until they pay the price for their sins, and they stay there only until the price for their sins has been paid. If they later commit another sin, though, they would then need to go back to Hell, unless maybe they repented before it was too late to repent, staying there in hell until they paid the price for those sins. I also believe there is a possibility of someone being a repeat offender who keeps going back to Hell eternally, instead of never needing to go there at all, or to not go back there.
CV75 Posted October 31, 2012 Posted October 31, 2012 These verses in section 132 are meant in the context of being condemned to hell temporarily after their mortal lives.I used D&C 132 is an example of degrees, not of inability to progress, in reply to your post #10 where you asked for examples of damnation being defined as "stopped in ones progress" or being in a lesser degree of glory.But the definition of damned is to be condemned to hell in my opinion.Whatever definiton of "damned" one wishes to use, these other scripture references are various examples of degrees of damnation and the inability of damned souls to progress, again in reply to your post #10.It also appears that within your definition, you have to determine when you are using the definition for one who is damned as a consequence of his own actions, when you are using it for one who is artificaily damned as a result of circumstances beyond his control (same with his suffering any or all the forms death and hell).
Rivers Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) Well. Hopefully we wont get any stupid characters like Jar Jar binks are really bad acting like little Anikin.Or any actor as bad as big Anakin. He was the one that really ruined the prequels for me. Edited November 1, 2012 by Rivers
treeface Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) This is only my opinion, of course.I do not believe that God forgives us. I believe that we get one chance and one chance only. Damned = you receive a punishment far in excess (in both severity and duration) of the actual harm that your misdeeds caused. In some cases, your good deeds can far outweigh your bad deeds but you still get damned on a technicality.Saved = you receive a reward far in excess (in both magnificence and duration) of the actual benefit that your good deeds produced. In some cases, your bad deeds can far outweigh your good deeds but you still get saved on a technicality.I think that both concepts are merely learning devices, to try to get us to progress by doing good deeds rather than bad ones. I do not believe that God actually hands out wildly disproportionate rewards and punishments. I believe that the natural consequences of our acts (whether such consequences occur in this life or the next) are, in and of themselves, sufficient reward or punishment, without any outside amplification. So I think that the path to Godhood is a very long one, but I also do not believe that anyone anywhere along that path is ever damned by anything other than their own choices.The reason I do not believe God forgives us is, I do not believe He ever really condemned us in the first place. Yes I do believe that God only gives us one chance, but that one chance lasts forever. Edited November 1, 2012 by treeface
teddyaware Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) I will speak specifically to the precept of how one might be saved (obtain a state of salvation) while they are yet living in mortality:Salvation -- or the state of being saved -- is realized by the successful application of two basic, mutually dependant gospel principles -- 'justification' and 'sanctification.' Although these two principles are conflated at times in the scriptures, they are usually are defined more or less as follows:Justification: A state wherein one has obtained a forgiveness of sins and declared to be innocent through living faith in the atoning sufferings and shed blood of the Lord Jesus ChristSanctification: A state of spiritual purity, refinement, and genuine holiness attained through faithful Christian discipleship, made possible by the atonment of Christ through the indwelling empowerment of the Holy Spirit.More simply put, justification refers to obtaing forgiveness of sins and sanctification refers to the obtainment of a living and growing christlike nature. You can't have one without the other. And it's possibe to enjoy the blessed state of being justified and sanctified by Christ while yet living in mortality. This is a form of salvation.In Mosiah 4, we are instructed on how to first obtain and then continue to retain justification (a remission of sins) and sanctification (spiritual growth and maturity) while living as mortals on earth. To those who had only just come unto Christ and obtained a remission of their sins and an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the good king counseled:"I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and (remember and retain in remembramce) your own nothingness, and (remember and retain in remembrance) his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and (remember and retain in remembrance that you must) humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and (if ye do this ye shall always) be filled with the love of God, and (if ye do this ye shall) always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you.So being saved while living as a mortal on earth requires:1. Always remembering the greatness of God.2. Always remembering you are nothing without God and his great atoning sacrifice.3. Always remembering that God is a being of perfect goodness.4. Always remembering that even though God is perfectly righteous, he loves you so much that he is willing to patiently wait for you to dust yourself off, as it were, and try again.5. Always remembering to humble yourself to the point that pride has no place within your heart.6.Always remembering to communicate with God daily that you might receive forgiveness, spiritual strength and personal revelation to guide into all truth and righteousness.7. Always remembering to stand as a steadfast witness to the truth by the example your godly walk and by your willingness to always be ready to testify at all times and in all places to the truthfulness of the gospel of Christ.By applying these seven steps King Benjamin promises you, even though you live on a fallen earth, that you will always be filled with joy, always filled with the love of God, always retain a remission of your sins, always grow in the knowledge and power of God.Yet,even though it is verily possible to enjoy the sacred privilage of living in a saved state while on earth, that blessed state can only be maintained if the process of growing in the grace and knowledge of God continues at a personalized pace that meets with God's approval. The Apostle Paul puts it this way in Philippians 3:"12 (it is) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.So then, what to make of the word damned in this context? Obviously, it points to an earth-dweller who doesn't attain and retain a remission of his sins, with resultant misery due to his having to live with a guilty conscience. And it also points to further miseries because this same unrepentant individual is left to his own devices without the empowerment, enlightenment, encouragement and emotional uplift of the companionship of the Holy Spirit. No justification + no sanctification = a state damnation while dwelling on the earth. But it must also be understood ignorance of the law is a mitigating factor. Edited November 1, 2012 by teddyaware
Rob Osborn Posted November 1, 2012 Author Posted November 1, 2012 I used D&C 132 is an example of degrees, not of inability to progress, in reply to your post #10 where you asked for examples of damnation being defined as "stopped in ones progress" or being in a lesser degree of glory.Whatever definiton of "damned" one wishes to use, these other scripture references are various examples of degrees of damnation and the inability of damned souls to progress, again in reply to your post #10.It also appears that within your definition, you have to determine when you are using the definition for one who is damned as a consequence of his own actions, when you are using it for one who is artificaily damned as a result of circumstances beyond his control (same with his suffering any or all the forms death and hell).Degrees of damnation is defined as the length of stay in hell to suffer. A greater damnation thus means a longer stay in hell. Placing semantics at the forefront, being limited or stopped in ones actions is not the definition of "damned" but rather one of the consequences that befalls the damned. Another consequence of being damned is to not be in God's presence. But we do not run around saying were damned because were not in his immediate presence. Another consequence of damnation is the feeling of loss, feelings of guilt, pain, etc. But we do not go around and tell people who are depressed or hurt that they are damned.My point here is that it is important not to confuse the proper definition of "damn" by replacing it with the definition of one of its consequences.In principle, one must look at the words saved and damned in the exact context the author or originator conveyed it. Joseph Smith used these two words in their proper dictionary definitions, especially with a protestant meaning which to date, hasn't changed at all. Joseph Smith never defined damned to mean being stopped or limited in ones progression. He always used it in the proper context of "condemnation to hell".In order to have a proper understanding and appreciation for the principles of the gospel, one cannot depart from these most basic yet simple words and what they exactly and solely mean. When you depart from it you end up with a gospel that is butchered and in effect- has lost its original intent and power.
altersteve Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 Damned = not being in God's presenceSaved = being in God's presenceSounds pretty simple to me. 1
CV75 Posted November 1, 2012 Posted November 1, 2012 In order to have a proper understanding and appreciation for the principles of the gospel, one cannot depart from these most basic yet simple words and what they exactly and solely mean.If what I say comes across as manipulating the semantics, please stop replying. But isn’t the whole purpose of your thread to discuss the meaning(s) of “saved” and “damnation”? As one grows in knowledge and experieince he will see that no word has one "exact" and "sole" meaning--in fact, holding to such constricts progress.And if one wants a proper understanding and appreciation for the principles of the gospel, shouldn't one start with "What does the word "God" mean?" And doesn't He reach out anyone regardless of their understanding of the term, and continue expanding their view of Him as long as they exercsie faith, and doesn't their view remain limited as long as they don't? And aren't these dynamics ultimately beyond words, but the language of the Spirit?I think the scriptures I provided are very direct in terms of addressing the meaning of “damnation” in terms of stopped progress and degree.From D&C 3: 3-4, “Remember, remember that it is not the work of God that is frustrated [thwarted, nullified—stopped!], but the work of men; For …if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance [punishment] of a just God [which is damnation—Mosiah 3:18] upon him.”Stopped = damnation.
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