What Does It Mean To Be Saved Or Damned?

[Rob Osborn]

If what I say comes across as manipulating the semantics, please stop replying. But isn’t the whole purpose of your thread to discuss the meaning(s) of “saved” and “damnation”? As one grows in knowledge and experieince he will see that no word has one "exact" and "sole" meaning--in fact, holding to such constricts progress.

And if one wants a proper understanding and appreciation for the principles of the gospel, shouldn't one start with "What does the word "God" mean?" And doesn't He reach out anyone regardless of their understanding of the term, and continue expanding their view of Him as long as they exercsie faith, and doesn't their view remain limited as long as they don't? And aren't these dynamics ultimately beyond words, but the language of the Spirit?

I think the scriptures I provided are very direct in terms of addressing the meaning of “damnation” in terms of stopped progress and degree.

From D&C 3: 3-4, “Remember, remember that it is not the work of God that is frustrated [thwarted, nullified—stopped!], but the work of men; For …if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance [punishment] of a just God [which is damnation—Mosiah 3:18] upon him.”

Stopped = damnation.

But "stopped" is not the definition. The word is too broad and doesnt convey what is meant. For instance, when the angel stopped Laman and Lemual from hurting Nephi and Sam he didnt damn them....

[CV75]

But "stopped" is not the definition. The word is too broad and doesnt convey what is meant. For instance, when the angel stopped Laman and Lemual from hurting Nephi and Sam he didnt damn them....

You definitely have an issue with semantics!

[Walden]

In a nutshell:

Saved = If you believe like me, you too will live in God's presence

Damned = Everyone else that does not believe like me (and thus destined to spend eternity without God's presence)

[Rob Osborn]

You definitely have an issue with semantics!

How one views or defines these words has a drastic effect on building the correct picture of the gospel. How do you interpret the way "damned" is conveyed in say- D&C 132:4,6? When it says you will be damned, what specifically does that mean to you? Lets start there.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Rob Osborn

[Ahab]

How one views or defines these words has a drastic effect on building the correct picture of the gospel. How do you interpret the way "damned" is conveyed in say- D&C 132:4,6? When it says you will be damned, what specifically does that mean to you? Lets start there.

I don't get to move forward as I would have had I not rebelled againt the will of God. Something like that.

Let me give you an example of some time I once spent in Hell. Maybe this will paint a better picture for you.

I once got really deep in debt, financially, and had to crawl my way out of it. I had heard our Lord's counsel to avoid debt except maybe for a house, or a car, or maybe an education, but I went beyond that and got a loan just to put some money in the bank as a backup and to buy some things to make my life, and the life of my loved ones, a little better. Later I started using credit cards for "nice" things, too, just to try to make my life and their life a little easier, and nicer. I didn't bring in a lot of income and thought I could use credit cards to make up a little difference, figuring the payments wouldn't be so bad. The payments kept rising though because I kept buying things with the credit cards, and then the money in savings started vanishing, so I then got another loan, and then later another loan, against the equity in my house. Long story short, that continued for quite a while and the debt just kept on rising, primarily because I kept using the credit cards and taking out loans against the equity in my house. It never got to the point where I had to go through foreclosure, though, thank heavens for that. But I spent quite a while trying to dig myself out of that hole I had got myself into.

Now, I know some of you may not consider what I went through as hell, or damnation, but that's what it actually was. Had I not done that, and I did know better, I would have gradually risen to where I could have paid cash for all of those things I spent money on and I would now have a lot more money in savings, instead of the little bit I have now. I figure I'll gradually rise to the level where I would have been now, sometime later, but had I not done that I would already be at that level. I'm behind now, and I'm trying to catch up to where I should be, and I won't ever make it to where I would have been now had I not done that stupid, stupid stupid stupid thing with money.

[harfad]

Rob,

Making use of a small window of opportunity to use the Internet in my wilderness, Joseph Smith taught that to be saved means to be placed beyond the power of one's enemies--by which I understand to mean Satan and his minyons. According to this definition, all are "saved" who are redeemed from hell one way or another, whichever kingdom of glory they may inherit: telestial, terrestrial, or celestial. Only the SOPs who are never redeemed from hell are truly damned. The scriptures, however, use the words saved and damned with more than meaning. Sometimes to be saved refers only to the celestial kingdom, in which case to be damned means simply that one's progression is stopped--i.e. they end at the telestial or terrestrial order, and do not progress further. Remember that God wants the best for everyone, which is a celestial glory. He is not pleased when one settles for less, which is therefore deficirnt in some way.

[Rob Osborn]

Rob,

Making use of a small window of opportunity to use the Internet in my wilderness, Joseph Smith taught that to be saved means to be placed beyond the power of one's enemies--by which I understand to mean Satan and his minyons. According to this definition, all are "saved" who are redeemed from hell one way or another...

I totally agree up to this point.

, whichever kingdom of glory they may inherit: telestial, terrestrial, or celestial. Only the SOPs who are never redeemed from hell are truly damned.

I agree that only the sons of perdition are truly damned eternally.

The scriptures, however, use the words saved and damned with more than meaning.

This is where things start getting fuzzy. When speaking of the plan of salvation I see the two words as basically only having only two meanings- saved into eternal life or damned to hell.

Sometimes to be saved refers only to the celestial kingdom, in which case to be damned means simply that one's progression is stopped--i.e. they end at the telestial or terrestrial order, and do not progress further

This is where it gets really fuzzy. Salvation as offered in the scriptures allows us to be "saved" from our sins/hell eternally. One cannot be saved and damned at the same time- that is an oxymoron. If one is saved, he is saved from damnation. Rewards in heaven (differing glory) is a different manner after one has been saved.

. Remember that God wants the best for everyone, which is a celestial glory. He is not pleased when one settles for less, which is therefore deficirnt in some way.

I agree that God wants the best for everyone and will do whatever He can to exalt us but only as we want it. Of course, He did set up spirit prison as a way to reform us into conforming to His will/ our purpose in our creation. I believe in a God who has a system set up in place that allows for constant progression and nourishment/ enlightenment throughout the eternities.

[Rob Osborn]

I don't get to move forward as I would have had I not rebelled againt the will of God. Something like that.

Let me give you an example of some time I once spent in Hell. Maybe this will paint a better picture for you.

I once got really deep in debt, financially, and had to crawl my way out of it. I had heard our Lord's counsel to avoid debt except maybe for a house, or a car, or maybe an education, but I went beyond that and got a loan just to put some money in the bank as a backup and to buy some things to make my life, and the life of my loved ones, a little better. Later I started using credit cards for "nice" things, too, just to try to make my life and their life a little easier, and nicer. I didn't bring in a lot of income and thought I could use credit cards to make up a little difference, figuring the payments wouldn't be so bad. The payments kept rising though because I kept buying things with the credit cards, and then the money in savings started vanishing, so I then got another loan, and then later another loan, against the equity in my house. Long story short, that continued for quite a while and the debt just kept on rising, primarily because I kept using the credit cards and taking out loans against the equity in my house. It never got to the point where I had to go through foreclosure, though, thank heavens for that. But I spent quite a while trying to dig myself out of that hole I had got myself into.

Now, I know some of you may not consider what I went through as hell, or damnation, but that's what it actually was. Had I not done that, and I did know better, I would have gradually risen to where I could have paid cash for all of those things I spent money on and I would now have a lot more money in savings, instead of the little bit I have now. I figure I'll gradually rise to the level where I would have been now, sometime later, but had I not done that I would already be at that level. I'm behind now, and I'm trying to catch up to where I should be, and I won't ever make it to where I would have been now had I not done that stupid, stupid stupid stupid thing with money.

I believe we can be surrounded by the chains of hell in this life. I believe "hell" is an actual place where we in mortality cannot go to. Only after death can we be delivered over to hell (the place where the wicked go). We may experience hell-like feelings but that is not to say we are or went to hell literally. Christ suffered for our sins to great pains but he never actually went to hell.

[harfad]

I believe in a God who has a system set up in place that allows for constant progression and nourishment/ enlightenment throughout the eternities.

According to what has been revealed, the people of the various kingdoms do progress within their respective kingdoms--hence the "instructions" they are said to receive from higher beings. But whether that means that they can progress from one kingdom to the next is a different issue. You are now venturing into the speculative theories of whether advancement between kingdoms is possible, about which nothing has been revealed.

The Church's teachings on that in the earlier days was that such advancement was not possible. Now the Church's position is more like "we don't know". It is like the question of whether the devil and his crew will eventually be saved--after spending eons and eons in torment in hell. The answer is that we don't know. It hasn't been revealed. The Lord has given us some ideas in D&C 29:29-30, but not much to go by.

Let us assume for argument's sake that after spending eons of eternities in torment in hell, the devil and his crew are redeemed in some way, does that mean that there is no such thing as dsmnation, because everybody is saved in the end? I don't think so. Likewise, let us suppose for argument's sake that after spending eons of eternities in the telestial kingdom, the telestial get to jump to the terrestrial; does that mean in reality there is only two states, saved or damned, with no states in between? I don't think that would be a valid argument rither.

Your argument, however, appesrs to be that the telestial and terrestrial apply only before the resurrection, after which it is either saved or damned. That has the least degree of support in modern revelstion. I would say it has no support whatsoever.

[urroner]

I believe we can be surrounded by the chains of hell in this life. I believe "hell" is an actual place where we in mortality cannot go to. Only after death can we be delivered over to hell (the place where the wicked go). We may experience hell-like feelings but that is not to say we are or went to hell literally. Christ suffered for our sins to great pains but he never actually went to hell.

Have you ever been to Texas?

[urroner]

Word Origin & History

damn

late 13c., "to condemn," from O.Fr. damner, derivative of L. verb damnare, from noun damnum "damage, loss, hurt." Latin word evolved a legal meaning of "pronounce judgment upon." Theological sense is first recorded early 14c.; the optative expletive use likely is as old. Damn and its derivatives generally were avoided in print from 18c. to c.1930s (the famous line in "Gone with the Wind" was a breakthrough and required much effort by the studio). To be not worth a damn is from 1817. Damn Yankee, characteristic Southern U.S. term for "Northerner," is attested from 1812.

Basically, what I see the meaning of "damned" is to be under any condemnation after the Final Judgement. Of course, this is the English word as it is used in an English Bible. I don't have any idea on the definition of the Hebrew/Greek word translated as "damned" or "condemned," or even "saved." The translations of the Hebrew/Greeks words to the English words "love" and "Hell" really leave a lot to be desired.

Also, the words "righteous" and "justice" are mistranslated for our English language today in our Bible:

Margaret Barker explains this in her paper "BELONGING IN THE TEMPLE."

When the bonds were intact, this was the state of şedaqah, usually rendered ‘righteousness’,which is somewhat misleading, because, like all translations, nuances are lost in the process. Righteousness meant the original state of integrity or wholeness, the cosmos as the Creator intended it to be. It was maintained by justice, mišpat, another word that loses much in translation, since to our ears ‘justice’ implies retribution, and mišpat was the means to restoration. In modern terms, we might compare a badly damaged road. How is the smooth surface to be restored? By filling in the holes and levelling the lumps. The result is a road in a state of şedaqah and the process of achieving it is mišpat. The process of finding out who had ignored the weight restrictions and caused this state of affairs that affected all other users was another matter.

[Rob Osborn]

According to what has been revealed, the people of the various kingdoms do progress within their respective kingdoms--hence the "instructions" they are said to receive from higher beings. But whether that means that they can progress from one kingdom to the next is a different issue. You are now venturing into the speculative theories of whether advancement between kingdoms is possible, about which nothing has been revealed.

The Church's teachings on that in the earlier days was that such advancement was not possible. Now the Church's position is more like "we don't know". It is like the question of whether the devil and his crew will eventually be saved--after spending eons and eons in torment in hell. The answer is that we don't know. It hasn't been revealed. The Lord has given us some ideas in D&C 29:29-30, but not much to go by.

Let us assume for argument's sake that after spending eons of eternities in torment in hell, the devil and his crew are redeemed in some way, does that mean that there is no such thing as dsmnation, because everybody is saved in the end? I don't think so. Likewise, let us suppose for argument's sake that after spending eons of eternities in the telestial kingdom, the telestial get to jump to the terrestrial; does that mean in reality there is only two states, saved or damned, with no states in between? I don't think that would be a valid argument rither.

Your argument, however, appesrs to be that the telestial and terrestrial apply only before the resurrection, after which it is either saved or damned. That has the least degree of support in modern revelstion. I would say it has no support whatsoever.

Before we can speak of kingdon jumping it needs to be hashed out who a saved person is and who a damned person is. There is more support for the dichotomy of the saved and the damned than any other teaching regarding. the plan of salvation. Who is saved, who is damned, and where it all takes place is paramount to understanding the plan of salvation.

[harfad]

As I said before, the words (like other words in scripture) are used with different meanings in different cotexts. What you are trying to do is to circumvent D&C 76, 88, and a bunch more by hook or by croock. That can't be done. Yoy need to decide once for all whether these are genuine revelations, and mean what they say, or they are something else.

[urroner]

As I said before, the words (like other words in scripture) are used with different meanings in different cotexts. What you are trying to do is to circumvent D&C 76, 88, and a bunch more by hook or by croock. That can't be done. Yoy need to decide once for all whether these are genuine revelations, and mean what they say, or they are something else.

• When does one have to decide where or not they are genuine revelation?
  

• Is it possible that one can make a honest effort to find out whether they are true or not and end up believing they are not true, when in reality, they are true?
  

• If this is possible, will one be damned for the eternities for making a failed attempt of trying to find the truth with a good faith effort or is it impossible,
  

• if one makes a good faith effort, to come up with the wrong answer?
  

[Rob Osborn]

As I said before, the words (like other words in scripture) are used with different meanings in different cotexts. What you are trying to do is to circumvent D&C 76, 88, and a bunch more by hook or by croock. That can't be done. Yoy need to decide once for all whether these are genuine revelations, and mean what they say, or they are something else.

I am trying to show that when you start at the very foundation of gospel principle and build upwards that you have a clear and concise picture of how the gospel of Jesus Christ works. Because we couldn't get anywhere in the other thread I thought it would be a good idea to start at ground zero and show how and why we misinterpret our own gospel.

Speaking of the saved and the damned, the scriptures uses these terms almost exclusively in these contexts- to be "saved" means to be saved from the eternal spiritual death that is brought on by our own sins. To be saved means to be thus saved from the eternal hell that awaits the unrepentant and wicked. This salvation is made possible because of the atonement and by strict obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. To be "damned" means to be condemned to hell. This condemnation can be a temporary damnation or a permanent damnation depending entirely upon if they choose to repent and accept the gospel while in spirit prison.

Damnation is not conveyed in scripture to mean a lower degree of glory as is believed by some. There are no scriptures that convey this false notion. But, because people are so insistent upon this false notion we have had to incorrectly modify the entire plan of salvation and give words entirely new definitions, none of which are supported in dictionary or in the scriptures themselves. For instance- Bruce R McConkie falsely identifies damnation as anything less than the highest degree within the celestial kingdom. He then lists scriptures to support this notion but yet none of the scriptures support this view. It comes largely from a misinterpretation of a few key scriptures.

[Ahab]

I believe we can be surrounded by the chains of hell in this life. I believe "hell" is an actual place where we in mortality cannot go to. Only after death can we be delivered over to hell (the place where the wicked go). We may experience hell-like feelings but that is not to say we are or went to hell literally.

That makes some sense, and I can agree on some level, but hell-like is what Hell is like so I think I can still say it was hell.

... and it was also an example to describe what damnation is like, Rob. I am now damned in the same sense that God refers to damnation, at least in terms of my life in this world.

Christ suffered for our sins to great pains but he never actually went to hell.

He could have, though, if it is an actual place. I don't think he would necessarily need to suffer for any sins there, those being our own which he took upon him if he did, but if Hell is an actual place and Christ can go anywhere, then he can also go to Hell, as his choice.

[bdouglas]

As I said before, the words (like other words in scripture) are used with different meanings in different cotexts. What you are trying to do is to circumvent D&C 76, 88, and a bunch more by hook or by croock. That can't be done. Yoy need to decide once for all whether these are genuine revelations, and mean what they say, or they are something else.

What the scriptures say or don't say doesn't mean much to these guys (the multiple probation, virtually-all-will-be-exalted-in-celestial-kingdom-in-the-end folks). They've got an idea in their heads, and they are going to go with it, regardless. The scriptures can mean anything you want them to mean if you are willing to engage in sufficiently imaginative readings.

[MiserereNobis]

Christ suffered for our sins to great pains but he never actually went to hell.

He could have, though, if it is an actual place. I don't think he would necessarily need to suffer for any sins there, those being our own which he took upon him if he did, but if Hell is an actual place and Christ can go anywhere, then he can also go to Hell, as his choice.

He did go to hell -- it's called the Harrowing of Hell. Interestingly enough, there is a section in the wiki article about the LDS view of the Harrowing of Hell and it seems to say that it is a very important doctrine, but that it uses different terms than traditional Christianity.

[Ahab]

He did go to hell -- it's called the Harrowing of Hell. Interestingly enough, there is a section in the wiki article about the LDS view of the Harrowing of Hell and it seems to say that it is a very important doctrine, but that it uses different terms than traditional Christianity.

Yeah, I thought so, already. I was just trying to get the point across that it was at least possible.

I think we need to be careful about how we say Jesus went to Hell, even after doing all of the good things that he did.

[harfad]

Jesus experienced the pains of hell on the cross, when he atoned for the sins of the world. After his death on the cross, however, his spirit did not descend to hell, according to Mormon revelation, but to the spirit world, where he preached the gospel to the dead.

[harfad]

P.S. Thank you MiserereNobis for the interesting link to the "Harrowings of Hell". I would say much of the doctrine taught therein is in agreement with LDS theology, but uses different terminologies to access it.

[spartacus]

I like LDS.org definition of being saved / salvation. You must know what the passage is referring to to know what type of salvation is being talked about (i.e. saved from death, exaltation, etc.) Damned on the other hand, as a former bishop taught me in YMs one time, means that progression is stopped. Satan was damned and can have no more increase or progression.

When you say "progression is stopped" do you apply this only to those in hell or also for lower glories?

Never really thought about it but I suppose it could apply to anyone in any degree of glory.

You should have. It gives a totally different hue to the "much better than just a heaven and hell of non-LDS churches" 3-tier heaven/outer darkness of LDS teachings. Instead of all this talk about how "few will go to hell (permanenty)" it's actually everyone being damned unless you are not just LDS but LDS valiant enough for the Celestial Kingdom. Even then there is reason to believe that the only ones not damned are the only ones who do have "eternal increase" which would be those in the top level of the Celestial Kingdom. So, it would seem, that in the LDS religion, even the vast majority of LDS are damned.

I know that last part is controversial and it can be side-skirted by claiming that people can still become worthy for upper levels of the Celestial Kingdom (from the lower levels of the Celestial Kingdom, if not even from the Terrestrial) even after death. But at the very least, everyone truly OUTSIDE of the Celestial Kingdom is damned. And the Terrestrial does include "non-valiant" LDS. So that's a lot of damned and a lot of damned LDS.

[spartacus]

Damned = not being in God's presence

Saved = being in God's presence

Sounds pretty simple to me.

Thus only Celestial Kingdom is "saved" country and all else below is "damned". Unless by "God" you actually mean "Godhead" in which case it switches but confusingly.

[spartacus]

In a nutshell:

Saved = If you believe like me, you too will live in God's presence

Damned = Everyone else that does not believe like me (and thus destined to spend eternity without God's presence)

Not so sure about this...

This might be true if it was all based on your beliefs. But all forms of LDS religion do not rely on belief alone. So it might be more like this:

Saved = If you believe enough like me and do everything I hope to do, you too will live in God's presence

Damned = Everyone else that does not believe like me or didn't do as much as I hope to do (and thus destined to spend eternity without God's presence)

[Ramil Torres]

saving faith, by freewill or election?