Revelations--The Beast--Need Interpretation

[mfbukowski]

Not any more!

[volgadon]

But at least we don't have to worry about you since you are a Sociologist.

Just a dang minute there, buddy- 'at don't say "Sociologist".........

In the Captive of the Caucasus, a classic Soviet comedy from the 60s, the girl is throwing insults at th hero, "You lousy good-for-nothing! You alcoholic! You, you miserable folklorist!"

[mfbukowski]

You, you miserable folklorist!"

Hey, man, I got street cred- I usta make Appalachian dulcimers for a living and my great grandma knew how to pick wild mushrooms out in the forest and made incredible mushroom dishes out of them- now my wife waves her hand and says "Oh- you're one of those mushroom people!" As a genuine Mayflower descendent with her English genealogy literally going back to Adam, (it ties into some royal line that somehow links into Biblical genealogies) she actually thinks I am "exotic" for being Polish!

If you're not nice to me, I may start singing a Polish drinking song and then you will be in for some REAL punishment!

[volgadon]

Hey, man, I got street cred- I usta make Appalachian dulcimers for a living and my great grandma knew how to pick wild mushrooms out in the forest and made incredible mushroom dishes out of them- now my wife waves her hand and says "Oh- you're one of those mushroom people!" As a genuine Mayflower descendent with her English genealogy literally going back to Adam, (it ties into some royal line that somehow links into Biblical genealogies) she actually thinks I am "exotic" for being Polish!

If you're not nice to me, I may start singing a Polish drinking song and then you will be in for some REAL punishment!

Being Polish, you probably go back to Adam, well, some Adam or other.

[Arbiter]

I've heard people say that whoever wrote that book was under the influence of some consciousness-altering substance when he did. They were joking of course.

For me, the approach that works best not just with Revelations, but with that crazy spaceship type stuff in Ezekiel or anything else bizarre and sort of psychedelic like that is to read it first like I would read a novel. It helps because it removes all that earnestness that I can't seem to help but bring to scripture study. The "this sounds completely crazy but it can't be because it's scripture" obstacle is thus removed. I can get better comprehension of the bare bones of what's there that way. Then, when you read it the second time, the spirituality that's sort of sprinkled around the bones is just a lot easier to see.

But if you're trying to find the "right" answer to what each monster, or horse, or color or book or snake or demon or whore or article of clothing or anything like that is, you're going to go crazy in the effort. There are so many awful things in history, and in the news, that could easily be "the beast" for instance, because they're so, well, beastly. Me, I think shoving the need to know things like that out of my mind as I read (no small thing for me), makes room for more important things to come in.

[mfbukowski]

Being Polish, you probably go back to Adam, well, some Adam or other.

That's a good album- I have it. It's the real deal.

Only humans go back to Adam. My wife kind of doubts I am in that category.

[mfbukowski]

[media=]

Being Polish, you probably go back to Adam, well, some Adam or other.

Compare the melodies with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44mvUnTGdTc

[volgadon]

Compare the melodies with this:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44mvUnTGdTc

I made up a list once of Dylan's folk sources.

[mfbukowski]

I made up a list once of Dylan's folk sources.

Of course you did.

You're worse than I am.

[theplains]

What is required in order to “buy or sell” in the kingdom of the beast in Revelation 13:17?

Thanks,

Jim

[shalamabobbi]

What is required in order to “buy or sell” in the kingdom of the beast in Revelation 13:17?

Thanks,

Jim

Germany is the beast..

[Alan]

I do agree we have to look to the past for the fulfilment of some of the Book of Revelation. I don't subscribe to the idea that the Beast was Communism (just as I don't subsribe to the oft quoted idea that Communism was the latter-day secret combination we should all be concered with), but feel that of all the historical figures Gregory the Great fits best.

[mfbukowski]

I do agree we have to look to the past for the fulfilment of some of the Book of Revelation. I don't subscribe to the idea that the Beast was Communism (just as I don't subsribe to the oft quoted idea that Communism was the latter-day secret combination we should all be concered with), but feel that of all the historical figures Gregory the Great fits best.

I was speaking to a recent immigrant from Guatemala who spoke of some of what is going on there with the level of corruption- she said that one can never feel safe anywhere and it took her nearly a year before she could stop at a right light here in this country and not worry about someone approaching with guns drawn to hijack her car or kidnap her or- who knows what.

The gangs have infiltrated the police departments and the gangs also use police uniforms so you never know who is who. Virtually all the politicians are on the take and are getting paid by drug lords. She said that virtually everyone is armed and when you go to a mall or some public place it is common to see ordinary citizens carrying guns to protect themselves- or to do who knows what? You can't tell the good guys from the bad guys.

Again, my source is one individual- I have not been there myself nor have I spoken to others who have been there to verify any of this, but she sounded very credible to me. She is a faithful member and had been a law student there wanting to make a difference now she feels it is just too big a problem to handle through normal channels.

If you are looking for secret combinations having completely taken over we don't have to look far. From where I live you just have to get in your car and drive a few hundred miles south, and there you are.

[mfbukowski]

Germany is the beast..

Maybe you have an extra "a" in there.

[MiserereNobis]

I do agree we have to look to the past for the fulfilment of some of the Book of Revelation. I don't subscribe to the idea that the Beast was Communism (just as I don't subsribe to the oft quoted idea that Communism was the latter-day secret combination we should all be concered with), but feel that of all the historical figures Gregory the Great fits best.

I assume you mean Pope St. Gregory I the Great? I'm curious what you have against him that would make him the beast. Do you not like Gregorian chant? Or were you on the side of the Eastern Church during his debates?

[MiserereNobis]

Germany is the beast..

I had an adult LDS neighbor when I was in high school who believed that Germany was the beast and that the reunification of Germany after the fall of communism would bring about another world war.

[Darren10]

So many other nations were tired of war (WWI) and were impressed by or afraid of the war machine they had seen the Germans create that many nations fell without a shot being fired.

Are you thinking of Ghengis Khan?

[shalamabobbi]

I had an adult LDS neighbor when I was in high school who believed that Germany was the beast and that the reunification of Germany after the fall of communism would bring about another world war.

I had an adult LDS friend who believed Cain was alive and was big foot. The gospel net gathereth of all kinds, even Catholics as Mark can attest. I enjoy your posts BTW.

Rockefeller is the beast.

<ducking>

There goes my seat in the Counsel on Foreign Relations..

[Thunderfire]

The Beast is "earthly kingdoms controlled by Satan" (Chapter heading injecting additional words from JST).

One of the heads is wounded to death, and is healed. (v. 3).

Then v. 3 continues to say "and all the world wondered after the beast".

Interesting thread for sure! Here is something I was given to ponder:

The great beast with the deadly wound in one of its heads (which is healed) represents the concept of "formation." Meaning anything which man can act upon, have control within or of himself, being of the earthly realm and not eternal is formation. Formations represent the control exercised by man instead of submitting to God's control in all things.

It was further shared that the "seven heads" represents the governments of men and the ten horns represent the misuse of God's gifts to men. Basically, the beast represents the self will of man. God gave mankind a kingdom (so to speak) in order that we might have something of value to willingly give back to God as our gift of obedience. Yet the beast represents our failure to deliver a kingdom fit for God's keeping, representing instead the work of selfish man we create for ourselves. So our worship of the beast merely denotes our worship of our own desires and wants.

But even this does not go far enough in explaining the beast as shared with me. Each time we exert our self will over the things we handle for our own gratification, for our own power or purpuse, instead of God's, then this represents the beast being the sin of adultery we commit with the gifts of God entrusted to us...

Edited October 4, 2012 by Thunderfire

[volgadon]

Are you thinking of Ghengis Khan?

The Eurovision group? Yes, that might qualify.

[blooit]

I was just looking at Rev 13 where it describes "The Beast" with 7 heads and 10 horns. I'm having trouble with something.

The Beast is "earthly kingdoms controlled by Satan" (Chapter heading injecting additional words from JST).

One of the heads is wounded to death, and is healed. (v. 3).

Then v. 3 continues to say "and all the world wondered after the beast".

This tells me that this healing is done in such a grandiose manner that people thought it was a miracle.

v. 4 indicates that it was so miraculous that they begin to worship the beast.

A kingdom/nation "mortally wounded" would be analogous to being destroyed or a revolution or something equally society altering. OK.

But then it is healed? The nation becomes restored to its former glory and strength? OK.

And it is done in such a way that people begin to wonder at the nation and worship it? This is hard to see. Since when has anyone worshipped a nation?

I kind of see this application to Hitler. Germany was a major power. Due to economic catastrophe it had a societal tailspin. Hitler came around and Germany became the dominant power in Europe. So many other nations were tired of war (WWI) and were impressed by or afraid of the war machine they had seen the Germans create that many nations fell without a shot being fired.

Is this the first beast? Or is there another meaning to this? Then what of the second beast?

I've always thought (in pure speculation) that the beast is the philosophy of communism, or perhaps the soviet union. They appear to be just about defeated (mortally wounded) but then rise again.

[MormonMason]

I had an adult LDS neighbor when I was in high school who believed that Germany was the beast and that the reunification of Germany after the fall of communism would bring about another world war.

Holy shades of Hal Lindsey!

[Ron Beron]

I was just looking at Rev 13 where it describes "The Beast" with 7 heads and 10 horns. I'm having trouble with something.

The Beast is "earthly kingdoms controlled by Satan" (Chapter heading injecting additional words from JST).

One of the heads is wounded to death, and is healed. (v. 3).

Then v. 3 continues to say "and all the world wondered after the beast".

This tells me that this healing is done in such a grandiose manner that people thought it was a miracle.

v. 4 indicates that it was so miraculous that they begin to worship the beast.

A kingdom/nation "mortally wounded" would be analogous to being destroyed or a revolution or something equally society altering. OK.

But then it is healed? The nation becomes restored to its former glory and strength? OK.

And it is done in such a way that people begin to wonder at the nation and worship it? This is hard to see. Since when has anyone worshipped a nation?

I kind of see this application to Hitler. Germany was a major power. Due to economic catastrophe it had a societal tailspin. Hitler came around and Germany became the dominant power in Europe. So many other nations were tired of war (WWI) and were impressed by or afraid of the war machine they had seen the Germans create that many nations fell without a shot being fired.

Is this the first beast? Or is there another meaning to this? Then what of the second beast?

While I haven't read most of the posts many historians consider the beast is the Roman Emperor with the seven horns being the seven hills of Rome and the 10 being the emperors that preceded Nero.

[MormonMason]

While I haven't read most of the posts many historians consider the beast is the Roman Emperor with the seven horns being the seven hills of Rome and the 10 being the emperors that preceded Nero.

This is true. I have several Bibles that say the same thing or something similar. A lot of historians and theologians have held and published this view.

So, if the first beast is Rome and the second beast receives its power from the first, and the second beast looks like a lamb but speaks the words of the dragon and of the first beast, what is the second beast? That is a direction that I think many theologians may wish to avoid and have because of this come up with varying interpretations.

The ancient Catholic Church (not the Catholic Churches of today) received considerable power from Rome when Christianity became the Religion of the State and often spoke the words and edicts of Rome when dissent manifested itself, even having power to send soldiers and enact banishments with the power of Rome backing their decisions. That is why I made the suggestion above. If there is a better explanation and interpretation that fits along similar lines but is not the ancient Catholic Church that immediately followed John but preceded us, I am all ears.

[MiserereNobis]

This is true. I have several Bibles that say the same thing or something similar. A lot of historians and theologians have held and published this view.

So, if the first beast is Rome and the second beast receives its power from the first, and the second beast looks like a lamb but speaks the words of the dragon and of the first beast, what is the second beast? That is a direction that I think many theologians may wish to avoid and have because of this come up with varying interpretations.

The ancient Catholic Church (not the Catholic Churches of today) received considerable power from Rome when Christianity became the Religion of the State and often spoke the words and edicts of Rome when dissent manifested itself, even having power to send soldiers and enact banishments with the power of Rome backing their decisions. That is why I made the suggestion above. If there is a better explanation and interpretation that fits along similar lines but is not the ancient Catholic Church that immediately followed John but preceded us, I am all ears.

What is the difference, other than historic time, between the ancient Catholic Church and the Catholic Church of today?