rodheadlee Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 According to JS they started their family nearby in Spring Hill. So think of Cain and Abel growing up there. No where near the place the rest of the world believes it was.I'm sorry I just don't see a problem believing things to be different than what the rest of the world believes. 1
guerreiro9 Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 According to JS they started their family nearby in Spring Hill. So think of Cain and Abel growing up there. No where near the place the rest of the world believes it was.I agree that the dominant position is that the Garden of Eden was probably somewhere in the old world, but that position is not based on anything but tradition as far as I am aware. This tradition is understandable, because when most of the Christians/Muslims/Jews were forming their traditions they were unaware that the "new" world existed. I don't believe any of the major world religions claim knowledge of the location of the Garden of Eden, but it is understandable that they would assume that it existed somewhere in the known world.If we now take a step back, and look at it objectively (presupposing a belief in the bible and ignoring statements by Joseph Smith), is there any reason for us to believe that the Garden of Eden was more likely to be in one location than another. I can't think of any reason why there is. Presupposing a belief in the bible what we know is that a big flood came and Noah and his family were afloat for a long period of time (the actual length is a little ambiguous with some estimates putting it up to a year on the water), after which they land, presumably somewhere in the Middle East and begin a new civilization. So where did they come from? Presupposing only a belief in the Bible, it could have been anywhere. China, Japan, Europe, Russia, South America, North America, Africa? I see no reason why any of these locations is more likely than any other, but I can see why people did anciently. They didn't realize these other locations existed. 2
sunstoned Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 I'm sorry I just don't see a problem believing things to be different than what the rest of the world believes.Actually, there are many in the world who do not believe there ever was a GOE or a great flood. The evidence against a world wide flood is overwhelming.
Rob Osborn Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 This is a common problem with church doctrine. A paradox. On the one hand we have the doctrine that the flood was global and yet on the other we are led to believe that some existing valley in Missouri was indeed the same topographical place where Adam and his prosperity once lived. The obvious paradox is paramount, you can only have one or the other. A global flood, as the scriptures state, destroyed the world that then was. This means that the entire topography of the land was destroyed. You can't have a real physical topographical location that remains untouched after a global catastrophe like the flood. My belief is t hat the global flood was real. There is ample evidence for it. This being true, the same area, topographically speaking, that was ancient Adam's lands, cannot possibly have survived the global flood. It may be the same area, but the topography of the land is completely different. As for the ancient alter that has been said or claimed by Joseph Smith to be ancient Adam's, I disbelieve it. You can't have both. 1
Storm Rider Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 According to JS they started their family nearby in Spring Hill. So think of Cain and Abel growing up there. No where near the place the rest of the world believes it was.You have to be careful of these type of generalizations; they can quickly cause you trouble. The vast majority of the world does not believe in a Garden of Eden or talk about where it may have been located.
Tacenda Posted September 29, 2012 Author Posted September 29, 2012 You have to be careful of these type of generalizations; they can quickly cause you trouble. The vast majority of the world does not believe in a Garden of Eden or talk about where it may have been located.Ok, alot of people believe it to be eleswhere.
shalamabobbi Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 As for the ancient alter that has been said or claimed by Joseph Smith to be ancient Adam's, I disbelieve it. You can't have both. Congratulations, welcome to the club. It's all downhill from here..Speaking of things we can't have both ways..pssst...
Glenn101 Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 Possibly, if not probably, the source of the belief that the original Garden of Eden is in the Old World is due to the Biblical connection with the River Euphrates. However, the Biblical description of the river that flowed out of the Garden of Eden and split into four heads, one of them being the Euphrates, does not comport with the current Tigris and Euphrates river system which merge to empty into the Persian gulf. But neither does the Missouri River complex. Thing have changed since those Elysian days.
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) If the four-sided "Flat Earth" is the ideal plane laid through the ecliptic and bounded by the four points of the winter/summer solstices and the vernal/autumnal equinoxes, then as the World-Ages move along, each "Flat Earth" dies in the Waters Below (below the 23 1/2° of the Celestial Equator, that is) and is reborn in a New Age. The chaotic times of the Floods are always "literal" in the same sense that any calendar date is; that is, there is no scientific evidence that there are Lions and Bulls and Rams and Fish and Scorpions and Virgins floating in space around our planet, and yet such signs can be used in a Zodiac (a "circle of little animals") to mark divisions of time.The baptismal Floods attested to in worldwide cross-cultural myth were "literal" events the same way that a birthday is; at the same time, this heuristic teaching device did not "literally" flood the earth with actual physical water. It was an image, a metaphor for a gigantic calendar. There are celestial "rivers" of time and place; the rivers that flowed from the Garden of Eden (part of the Temple-complex) provide the names for the current rivers, which are not archaeologically connected -- they are not the "original", they're earthly imitations. If Adam and Eve and Eden are similar heuristic models repurposed in various ways throughout history, then it is absolutely true that there is an Eden in Missouri, since there is an Eden in every Temple - there was an Eden in the Middle East, there is an Eden here in Portland, there is an Eden in Hawaii, etc. It's part of the sacralization of the local landscape of the Saints.We don't need to throw out modern genetics and geology. We just need to realize that some things in religion are figurative, and understand the genre of scripture we're reading.Everyone should also read Hamlet's Mill, by the way. Edited September 29, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith 1
Robert F. Smith Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 I do, and he was brilliant for doing so. By claiming the garden of Eden for America, he was plugging into the cultural currents that made Mormonism so appealing to Americans and American-wannabes of the 19th century, and wrapping up the whole world into an America-centered narrative.Joseph Smith's theology was fully bipolar in that both Israel and part of the Americas are to work in tandem in the end times. That is why he sent Orson Hyde to Jerusalem to formally dedicate Palestine to the gathering of the Jews (1841). That is why the D&C fully recognizes the Aaronic priesthood of the direct descendants of Aaron among the Jews. Mormons are not supersessionists. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 Haven't church leaders taught that the entire earth was an eden-like state? If that's the case, why is it important that the Garden of Eden is in any specific location?The Earth is thought to have been in a paradisiacal state, but you are confusing Eden with the Garden of Edan. The Garden is only a small part of Eden, on the east side of it. 1
ed2276 Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 What are your thoughts? The story is, that Joseph Smith and others went exploring the area shortly after arriving in Missouri and came upon an altar (pile of rocks) that Joseph said was the one Adam and Eve used and he renamed an area nearby, called Spring Hill, Adam-ondi-Ahman. And this is where Adam & Eve, as mortals, started their family.My feeling is that Joseph may have made it up to excite and keep the people interested in this new religion or he felt that he was inspired to say this.I read the apologist side on Fairmormon.com and they don't deny that Joseph did this. It just seems incomprehensible to me that it could be true. Of course some believing LDS don't even believe in the Garden of Eden and believe it to be an allegory. So this to them is probably a non issue.Well, it had to be somewhere; why not Missouri? Good as place as any, I reckon. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) Simple LDS mythology. Adam-ondi-Ahman is just a piece of land in Missouri. I don't understand why JS would try to take emphasis off of the Holy Land and surrounding areas and place it on U.S. soil.Interesting theology but hardly worth exploring past a few feet of the surface.If it is mythology, it is primordial mythology, and we can localize it rather neatly in Joseph Smith's conception:Hebrew ʿedin comes from Sumerian EDIN "plain," as used of the fertile plain of Mesopotamia, but just as easily applied to the even more fertile Great Plains of the USA. In fact, the late biblical scholar David Noel Freedman even toyed with that very notion in 2001:. . . the Mississippi River in our country drains a vast basin from north to south, being fed by tributary rivers on both sides, e.g., the Ohio, itself the product of a vast tributary system flowing into the Mississippi from the East, while the mighty Missouri joins the Mississippi from the West. If we try to impose a real picture on the imagined one in the book of Genesis, we might come out in the following fashion: It may be that the flow of the biblical rivers from one source into many streams will be reversed and they will flow back into the main stream from which they came.1The Garden of Eden is planted on the East of Eden (Genesis 2:8, Abraham 5:8, II Nephi 2:19,22, 8:3 ǁIsaiah 51:3, Alma 12:21, 42:2-3), so that western Missouri is in just the right location. D&C 117:8 speaks of the mountains of Adam-ondi-Ahman and the plains of Olaha Shinehah, or the land where Adam dwelt – as though he actually lived there and was not simply passing through on a world tour. So also one finds Noah preparing for the Deluge in the Carolinas.2 M. Cowley wrote that A. Smoot and A. Ripley claimed that, while surveying land at Adam-ondi-Ahman (about 72 miles north of Jackson County), Joseph visited them and "said that the Garden of Eden was located in Jackson County, Missouri.".3---------------------------------- 1 Freedman, “Introduction: The Rivers of Paradise,” in D. M. Freedman & M. J. McClymond, eds., The Rivers of Paradise (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2001), 9.2 So Oliver B. Huntington in Juvenile Instructor, (15 Nov 1895), 700-701, as cited by Tanner & Tanner, Changing World of Mormonism, 23.3 Cowley, Wilford Woodruff, 545-546, cited in BYU Studies, 13:566; cf. the Woodruff Journals for possible mention; cf. TPJS, 126, for Joseph's statement that Adam offered sacrifice in Adam-ondi-Ahman after being cast out of the Garden – this best makes sense in light of Phelps in Evening & Morning Star, I/11 (April 1833), quoting Moses 5:1-16, the Lord speaking to Adam from the Garden! What is the distance there? Edited September 29, 2012 by Robert F. Smith 2
mfbukowski Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 Congratulations, welcome to the club. It's all downhill from here..Speaking of things we can't have both ways..pssst...Oh ye of little faith!!
MormonMason Posted September 30, 2012 Posted September 30, 2012 Want to realize something kind of funny in light of the subject? There is not a place anywhere in the Middle East that matches the description of the garden of Eden. In no case do the four rivers named for those in the Bible join together as described in the Bible. According to the Bible, the river that went through Eden had four heads. Neither the Tigris nor Euphrates match the full description. Two rivers are completely missing. Because of this, later interpreters of the Bible decided that the two other rivers had to have been rivers such as the Nile and others. Yet, even this Nile never met together with either Euphrates or Tigris. Does this make you think a little? 1
Tacenda Posted September 30, 2012 Author Posted September 30, 2012 I'm amazed that some of you, you know who you are, might have convinced me that the GOE could have been in Missouri after all. Unbelievable!
cdowis Posted September 30, 2012 Posted September 30, 2012 Haven't church leaders taught that the entire earth was an eden-like state? If that's the case, why is it important that the Garden of Eden is in any specific location?The scriptures tell us that Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden. What was the nature of that boundary? It implies that there was a GOE and a not-GOE. So it was clearly in a specific location. 1
thesometimesaint Posted September 30, 2012 Posted September 30, 2012 Well, it had to be somewhere; why not Missouri? Good as place as any, I reckon.Have you ever been in Missouri in the summer? Not my idea of a paradise. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted September 30, 2012 Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) The church still owns land there for a possible future temple: ( http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/adamondiahman/ )Neither the quote nor the link says the land is for "a possible future temple." Rather, it says Adam-Ondi-Ahman is the location of a future grand council where Jesus will meet with the stewards of all dispensations. Edited September 30, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted September 30, 2012 Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) Simple LDS mythology. Adam-ondi-Ahman is just a piece of land in Missouri. I don't understand why JS would try to take emphasis off of the Holy Land and surrounding areas and place it on U.S. soil.Perhaps it was because the Lord unfolded to him a glimpse of the eternities and he was thus not limited to the traditions and dogmatism of a world beset with the darkness of apostasy.And he didn't take the focus off anything, but rather, expanded the vista. Edited September 30, 2012 by Scott Lloyd 4
Scott Lloyd Posted September 30, 2012 Posted September 30, 2012 Have you ever been in Missouri in the summer? Not my idea of a paradise.I've been to Adam-Ondi-Ahman in mid-summer. The humidity was oppressive and the insects were bothersome. Yet I found it beautiful, and I was impacted spiritually.
thesometimesaint Posted September 30, 2012 Posted September 30, 2012 Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I love the deep green of the South, but live there again? Heat, Humidity, Bugs, No thank you. I'll take the occasional shaking of the earth. Besides we're canted the wrong way for us to fall off into the Pacific Ocean. It is everything east of here will fall off into the Atlantic.
Scott Lloyd Posted September 30, 2012 Posted September 30, 2012 Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To some degree, yes. And quite possibly influenced by the spiritual frame of mind of the beholder.
Carborendum Posted September 30, 2012 Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) ...You can't have a real physical topographical location that remains untouched after a global catastrophe like the flood... You've obviously never visted the Church grounds at Spring Hill.1) The altar did NOT survive as such.2) The stones are spread out over a large area.3) The stones were HUGE-about the size of a flattened Corrola. So, even a catastrophe like the flood couldn't have moved them very far. They may have been knocked down or moved a little way by the flood. But the erosion of the soil and weathering over thousands of years have move them quite a distance away from each other.My question is really about the building of the altar. How did Adam and Eve put these altars together by themselves? Or did they already have several adult children by that time? Questions. Questions. Questions. Edited September 30, 2012 by Carborendum
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