Carborendum Posted September 30, 2012 Posted September 30, 2012 Have you ever been in Missouri in the summer? Not my idea of a paradise.Actually, I was just in Missouri this past year during June.You may complain about the humidity. But coming from the dry state of Colorado, I'll tell you what! It IS a paradise.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Have you ever been in Missouri in the summer? Not my idea of a paradise.I lived there for 7 years and loved it. Especially Independence, MO, although Far West is nice also.You realize that we're all going back there someday?
Robert F. Smith Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Neither the quote nor the link says the land is for "a possible future temple." Rather, it says Adam-Ondi-Ahman is the location of a future grand council where Jesus will meet with the stewards of all dispensations.Yeh, and we have to build the temples already sited for Independence and Far West. The Kansas City temple is already in full operation (in Jackson County, MO).
Robert F. Smith Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Want to realize something kind of funny in light of the subject? There is not a place anywhere in the Middle East that matches the description of the garden of Eden. In no case do the four rivers named for those in the Bible join together as described in the Bible. According to the Bible, the river that went through Eden had four heads. Neither the Tigris nor Euphrates match the full description. Two rivers are completely missing. Because of this, later interpreters of the Bible decided that the two other rivers had to have been rivers such as the Nile and others. Yet, even this Nile never met together with either Euphrates or Tigris. Does this make you think a little?Yes, and most biblical scholars think that the the rivers in Gen 2:11-14 is a late insertion (glosse), which is very interesting since the Book of Abraham does not include those names at all (see Abr 5:10-11).
shalamabobbi Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 You realize that we're all going back there someday?Someday?The council at Adam Ondi Ahman has already taken place. Weren't y'all invited?http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Quotes/Adam-ondi-Ahman.html
Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) Yeh, and we have to build the temples already sited for Independence and Far West. The Kansas City temple is already in full operation (in Jackson County, MO).But let it be understood the Kansas City temple is not THE New Jerusalem temple. It is merely one of many temples that will be built in the latter days prior to the coming of the Lord in glory. And the Kansas City temple is not in Jackson County. It's in neighboring Clay County. Edited October 1, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 I lived there for 7 years and loved it. Especially Independence, MO, although Far West is nice also.You realize that we're all going back there someday?Please see this article about "Missouri Myths":http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/04/missouri-myths
Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) Posted in error. Edited October 1, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
Judd Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) We used to live in Missouri about an hour and 45 minutes away or so from Adam-ondi-Ahman. Though we loved where we were, we wouldn't call it paradise. Adam-ondi-Ahman, however, is beautiful. Edited October 1, 2012 by Judd
Robert F. Smith Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 But let it be understood the Kansas City temple is not THE New Jerusalem temple. It is merely one of many temples that will be built in the latter days prior to the coming of the Lord in glory.Correct, but I didn't say that it was, and I pointed out that the temple in Independence must still be built -- which will be the great temple in the center stake of Zion, to which the Lord will return in glory.And the Kansas City temple is not in Jackson County. It's in neighboring Clay County.My bad. Most of KC is in Jackson County, so I made an unjustified extrapolation.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Please see this article about "Missouri Myths":http://www.lds.org/e.../missouri-mythsThanks. Hadn't seen it before. However, I'll see and raise you with http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Quotes/Adam-ondi-Ahman.html .
Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Thanks. Hadn't seen it before. However, I'll see and raise you with http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Quotes/Adam-ondi-Ahman.html .The prophesied grand council at Adam-Ondi-Ahman is not the same thing as the erroneous folklore that the entire Church will be called upon to move en masse to Jackson County driving their covered wagons or pulling handcarts, a notion that I think grew out of the belief of some Church members in pioneer times that the Second Coming of Christ would transpire within their lifetimes. .
mfbukowski Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Being a non-literalist certainly has its benefits.
cinepro Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 My bad. Most of KC is in Jackson County, so I made an unjustified extrapolation.I suspect the conversation went something like this:President Monson (to the head of the Temple Real Estate Department): We need to build a Temple in Kansas City.TRE: Great! We'll start looking for suitable land. Are there any special guidelines we should follow?President Monson: Yes. Build it anywhere but in Jackson County. 1
thesometimesaint Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 The center Stake is to be in Missouri. Not that every member will be there. I prefer to stay here in southern California and build a Zion community here.
rodheadlee Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Being a non-literalist certainly has its benefits.Where do the metaphors end and the literal begin? Will the Second Coming of Christ be metaphorical? Did Christ literally come to the Americas? Are Adam and Eve only metaphorically our first parents? The Garden of Eden is a metaphor for what?I never cared much for philosophy but you and BrighamYoung have got my attention. Brigham Young said "Mormonism embraces all truth that is revealed and that is unrevealed, whether religious, political, scientific or philisophical." JOD 9:149 "It comprehends all true science known by man, angels, and the gods. There is one true system and science of life, all else tends to death. That system emanates from the Fountain of Life" JOD 8:70 " It fills eternity, it is all truth in heaven, on earth or in hell. This is Mormonism. It embraces every true science, all true philosophy." JOD 14:280 1
mfbukowski Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Where do the metaphors end and the literal begin? Will the Second Coming of Christ be metaphorical? Did Christ literally come to the Americas? Are Adam and Eve only metaphorically our first parents? The Garden of Eden is a metaphor for what?I never cared much for philosophy but you and BrighamYoung have got my attention.Brigham Young said "Mormonism embraces all truth that is revealed and that is unrevealed, whether religious, political, scientific or philisophical." JOD 9:149"It comprehends all true science known by man, angels, and the gods. There is one true system and science of life, all else tends to death. That system emanates from the Fountain of Life" JOD 8:70 " It fills eternity, it is all truth in heaven, on earth or in hell. This is Mormonism. It embraces every true science, all true philosophy." JOD 14:280The simple answer is that since no one knows, why worry about it?All the arguing in the world will never solve a single one of these issues we argue about all the time here. Scholars say this, scholars say that- who cares? My scholar is smarter than your scholar.What is the purpose of the gospel? To worry about when the second coming is, or to grow closer to Christ and become like him as much as you can? Or worry about where Eden supposedly was? Or if there was one in the first place?Or how Joseph translated the Book of Abraham or didn't?To be 100% honest, I don't have a clue and I don't care either way. If it happens, I will be ready. or I won't be. If it doesn't happen, I will be ready or I won't be.If there was a flood, that's ok with me. If there wasn't one, that's ok with me too. If we evolved, that's ok. If God made us out of nothing in 6 days, that's ok too.It's all stories no one can prove anyway, so why argue about it?All I know is that I have a LOT of work to do to become Christlike in my life, and THAT is where my focus should be. I wish I could say that that is where it always IS, but I cannot.I have a lot of work to do, and I suppose we all do. But what do I know?? 1
fatherofone Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 The simple answer is that since no one knows, why worry about it?All the arguing in the world will never solve a single one of these issues we argue about all the time here. Scholars say this, scholars say that- who cares? My scholar is smarter than your scholar.What is the purpose of the gospel? To worry about when the second coming is, or to grow closer to Christ and become like him as much as you can? Or worry about where Eden supposedly was? Or if there was one in the first place?Or how Joseph translated the Book of Abraham or didn't?To be 100% honest, I don't have a clue and I don't care either way. If it happens, I will be ready. or I won't be. If it doesn't happen, I will be ready or I won't be.If there was a flood, that's ok with me. If there wasn't one, that's ok with me too. If we evolved, that's ok. If God made us out of nothing in 6 days, that's ok too.It's all stories no one can prove anyway, so why argue about it?All I know is that I have a LOT of work to do to become Christlike in my life, and THAT is where my focus should be. I wish I could say that that is where it always IS, but I cannot.I have a lot of work to do, and I suppose we all do. But what do I know??AMEN that is after all why we are here, to become more Christlike 1
mfbukowski Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 "It comprehends all true science known by man, angels, and the gods. There is one true system and science of life, all else tends to death. That system emanates from the Fountain of Life" JOD 8:70 " It fills eternity, it is all truth in heaven, on earth or in hell. This is Mormonism. It embraces every true science, all true philosophy." JOD 14:280All I know is that I think that this truth that Bro Brigham is talking about is that God is a Man and that men organize reality by the power of the Word (John 1) and that Fountain of Life is indeed the Word.The Word fills eternity and without it there is no Truth. No words, no truths. Pretty simple stuff.
Cobalt-70 Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 The center Stake is to be in Missouri. Not that every member will be there. I prefer to stay here in southern California and build a Zion community here.Who says that there will be a center stake of Zion in Missouri? I think that boat has long passed. The church has not had a "center stake" since Nauvoo, and I can't see the church re-organizing itself according to that model. What made the "center stake" special is that its high council was the Presiding High Council, and by scripture had equal (and technically higher, except in the mission field) authority than the Quorum of the Twelve. I don't see the Twelve ceding their authority back to a stake high council.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 What are your thoughts? The story is, that Joseph Smith and others went exploring the area shortly after arriving in Missouri and came upon an altar (pile of rocks) that Joseph said was the one Adam and Eve used and he renamed an area nearby, called Spring Hill, Adam-ondi-Ahman. And this is where Adam & Eve, as mortals, started their family.My feeling is that Joseph may have made it up to excite and keep the people interested in this new religion or he felt that he was inspired to say this.I read the apologist side on Fairmormon.com and they don't deny that Joseph did this. It just seems incomprehensible to me that it could be true. Of course some believing LDS don't even believe in the Garden of Eden and believe it to be an allegory. So this to them is probably a non issue.The earth was changed with the flood...also the type of word used for the ark is found in abundance in the gulf region. Unlike any other places. It would have been lie that would serve no purpose. This is the promised land...the rivers that surround Missiouri could have originally been named the same at those surrounding Bagdad. That is where others believe it to be.
thesometimesaint Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) Cobalt70:http://www.ldschurch...n-revealed.html Edited October 1, 2012 by thesometimesaint
Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Cobalt70:http://www.ldschurch...n-revealed.htmlHere's a more extensive doctrinal piece by Richard Cowan of BYU regarding Zion (Jackson County, Mo.,) as the prophesied center place.
Cobalt-70 Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 http://www.ldschurch...n-revealed.htmlI wasn't going to mention that, but yes, that's another reason why Missouri would not likely be the "center stake" in Zion, although this church has become so stake-oriented that I find it hard to imagine that a stake would not be organized in Jackson County Missouri. There already is an Independence Missouri Stake, and I can't see it being dissolved just to recreate the old Zion-Stakes model.
shalamabobbi Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 All I know is that I think that this truth that Bro Brigham is talking about is that God is a Man and that men organize reality by the power of the Word (John 1) and that Fountain of Life is indeed the Word.The Word fills eternity and without it there is no Truth. No words, no truths. Pretty simple stuff. I don't know about simple.In defending science I am not defending scientism. Science must operate on the basis of only what there is to observe. The reality of anything beyond this awaits the time that data constrains us to accept it. Accepting that which is beyond current science falls within the realm of faith/belief. I am comfortable with this or I wouldn't be LDS.Naturalism has to be assumed by science since it deals with nature and admits of nothing more. So the question becomes how we can coordinate an intervening God into the picture that doesn't lead to contradictions with what we know. We can haphazardly ignore the facts of science and pretend they can be read another way. Or we can look for ways that admit the known evidence and what we believe from our theology.For example if we obstinately grand stand for a global flood we ignore a boat load of contrary evidence and have to accept that God planted all the false evidence. If we say the flood was local perhaps we can remove the dichotomy. The evidence is overwhelming that the continents did not divide anytime in the recent past and so we are left wondering how it is that Noah could have preached to all the inhabitants of the planet. Or how it is that archaeology shows that civilizations existed post-flood the same as pre-flood without so much as a hiccup.In resolving evolution lets look at the model similar to that of bcspace. If death refers to modern humans only, no death before the fall fits nicely as does Moses' statement that Adam was the son of God if this refers to his spirit. A bottleneck does not show up in the DNA data so Adam being the biological father of the human race either can't be true (Adam becomes the father of those who accept the covenant via adoption) or we accept a God that intervenes again in altering DNA. Certainly if long lives of ancient patriarchs is literal this becomes a necessity. Healing the blind, raising the dead, the rearrangement of the land at the death of Christ in the BOM(were horses mentioned in the BOM after this event? What does it do to archeological evidence for the BOM prior to the event?), answers to prayer - all are examples of an intervening God. We can't reasonably reject the notion of altering DNA out of hand. The question becomes whether the evidence and data will allow such a view without raising a self-contradiction as we find with a global flood. Otherwise we are reduced to accepting the view that God creates false data, or that by changing vocabulary the problems go away completely. 1
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