Excommunication Cancelled.

[Bob Oliverio]

It must be great to have no doubt about one's position. However, it can get a bit embarrassing when you are proven wrong. Crow is not a tasty dish however it is served.

One can be LDS and not live in ignorance nor naivety of the isolation of Sundays.  It just takes a little more confidence.  This "court of love" or disciplinary action will not take place before the election.  And we can pretend that an organization as large and influential as The Church is not "political", in any form of the definition.  But, IMHO, that is too much sand above the neck for rational members!

I will do backflips of apologies if this Twede guy ever sees a disciplinary counsel before the election.  And I have no doubt most clear thinking brethren will agree w me silently on this one!

Come on folks, this one is waaay  toooooo obvious!

[Sky]

Even if the disciplinary counsel/possible excommunication happens after the election, David Twede will still publish everything and try to stir up more bad publicity for the Church (while at the same time creating more attention for himself and increasing traffic to his "Mormon Think" website). He'll exploit the whole situation to his advantage. And after the election is over and (if) Romney loses, the media won't suddenly lose interest in Mormonism. The "Mormon moment" may slow down a bit, but there will still be plenty of interest in and conversations going on about the Church. So I see little advantage for the Church to delay this until after the election, if that is in fact what they are doing, which I'm not at all convinced that they are.

[Duncan]

if I was his Stake President I wouldn't feel too comfortable with my name being broadcast all over the place and him telling people about any emails

[ERayR]

One can be LDS and not live in ignorance nor naivety of the isolation of Sundays. It just takes a little more confidence. This "court of love" or disciplinary action will not take place before the election. And we can pretend that an organization as large and influential as The Church is not "political", in any form of the definition. But, IMHO, that is too much sand above the neck for rational members!

I will do backflips of apologies if this Twede guy ever sees a disciplinary counsel before the election. And I have no doubt most clear thinking brethren will agree w me silently on this one!

Come on folks, this one is waaay toooooo obvious!

I am sorry that there are those of us who don't think as clearly nor have the vision and insight that you do. Carry on the church could not function without you.

[Zeta-Flux]

This issue has gotten much bigger than it should be. I was discussing it with some friends on a mathematics bulletin board!

[Stargazer]

I could see fasting for spiritual and good causes but fasting for a politician shows who exactly the lobbyists and beauracrats are.

I could see fasting for a result I passionately believed would be best thing for the country, irrespective of whether it were for a political event such as an election, or a legal event such as a finding by the Supreme Court that the Federal Government had overstepped its bounds when it made plural marriage illegal (you better believe that that was a subject of fasting back in the day), or even that my child came home safe from a war.

Where do you get the idea that the election of a wise and good person (regardless of his or her faith) to a public office isn't a legitimate object for a fast, anyway? Because politics is supposedly a crass enterprise?

"God...I'm not eating because I want to show that I sustain you by sustaining a church member politician. Amen." Is this not pretentious or assinine to anyone else?

If the person running for President against Obama were Huckaby, you better believe I would fast about his winning the election. And I will probably dedicate one of my monthly fasts between now and Nov 8 to this subject, you better believe.

Just because you don't LIKE the particular candidate in question does not give you carte blanche on declaring others' preferences somehow gauche.

Feel free to fast for Obama's reelection if you want. I wouldn't object, though I don't think you're inclined to believe that fasting does anything more than make one hungry.

[Stargazer]

David Twede has been off prozac for awhile. That's obvious.

What is more difficult to tell is whether the Lord will have to use a 2 x 4 upside the head to get his attention.

The General Authorities (the "Brethren") of the LDS Church are not a bunch of venal lawyers and businessmen, but kind, caring men who follow Christ. They include a noted heart surgeon (Nelson), a former university president and academic (Holland), and the former chief pilot for Lufthansa (Uchtdorf).

Now, I think that Br. Twede is probably trying to lobby for the church to have a paid ministry, with clergy who self-select and qualify themselves by attending Divinity school. That way, the General Authorities would all be clergymen.

If that isn't what he wants, then I'd have to say he is a very confused man.

[Stargazer]

I'm not saying the fasting is pretentious or assinine. God has nothing to do with Romney and American politics. If you want to help Romney...poor thousands of dollars into his campaign.

Well, that's your opinion. The part about God having nothing to do with Romney and American politics. There is a rather significant part of a section in the Doctrine and Covenants that proclaims rather pointedly that God raised up the men who created the Constitution that this nation operates under. If God has nothing to do with American politics, then that is a direct contradiction of Latter-day revelation and scripture.

And as to donating to Romney's campaign, well, I have done so. Though not in the amounts you suggest. I will also pray that, if it be God's will, that Romney wins this election. Not because he is a Mormon, but because I have listened and read what Romney stands for. And partly because he is not Obama, who I believe sincerely is leading this country to ruin.

[Sky]

I won't be participating, but I don't have a problem with some members fasting for Romney, as long as they are clear that they are doing it on their own and not implying any sort of Church endorsement. But what if I decided to fast for Obama? God can't answer both of our prayers.

The Church happens to have some Obama supporters too, and I think it would be wrong to alienate them simply because they have a political view that may differ from the majority.

As long as we are loyal to the Priesthood it really shouldn't matter what our political leanings are.

[Robert F. Smith]

Even if the disciplinary counsel/possible excommunication happens after the election, David Twede will still publish everything and try to stir up more bad publicity for the Church (while at the same time creating more attention for himself and increasing traffic to his "Mormon Think" website). He'll exploit the whole situation to his advantage. And after the election is over and (if) Romney loses, the media won't suddenly lose interest in Mormonism. The "Mormon moment" may slow down a bit, but there will still be plenty of interest in and conversations going on about the Church. So I see little advantage for the Church to delay this until after the election, if that is in fact what they are doing, which I'm not at all convinced that they are.

Satan will have his day, and maybe a few small victories, but the victories will be Pyrrhic, and the Saints of God will not be deterred from their preparation for the end time. Of that we can be certain.

[Robert F. Smith]

I think common sense finally kicked in, obviously w a little pressure from Salt Lake. I think it will be re-scheduled sometime after the election. And (sarcasm noted) why would we fast for the guy who supposedly sullied the face of the Church?!?! Did any of the stakes in Nevada ask members to fast when Mr. Reid was debating Sharon Angle two years ago?

There is nothing obvious here, except to those who pretend to read minds (or tea leaves). We should completely avoid the discordant effect of partisan political wrangling here and at Church. I believe that the Holy Spirit is grieved when such hatemongering takes center stage.

[Bikeemikey]

I will also pray that, if it be God's will, that Romney wins this election. Not because he is a Mormon, but because I have listened and read what Romney stands for. And partly because he is not Obama, who I believe sincerely is leading this country to ruin.

Here in lies the problem... You want Romney to win gods will or not.

If Obama wins you certainly won't think it is gods will, even though that would be a logical conclusion based on you prayer, "if it be gods will let Romney win".

As for the constitutional founders being inspired I believe this. based on the inspired constitutional document the US nation has, up until recently, been the most diverse and most tolerant country in the world. I am curious, if the Supreme Court rules prop 8 unconstitutional (which based on both conservative and liberal scholars is unlikely) will you recognize that LDS members in California were attempting an unconstitutional power grab?

The constitution protects against the tyranny of the majority just as much as it protects citizens from govt overreach!

Also, US govt roots being inspired does not require other countries govts to be inspired. Many govts are foundered on the integrity of inspired people.

[why me]

Come on folks, this one is waaay toooooo obvious!

I do believe that there was a reason that the mormonthink people wanted to make this about Romney when they contacted the press. To get needed publicity. Like I said, very few news oulets would have cared about a local excommunication in Florida. But put a Romney spin on it and it would be picked up. I suppose Bob that there is a bigger question here: Why did MormonThink make this about Romney when it wasn't? Why did they make it political? I think that instead of harping on the lds chruch, you need to harp on MormonThink. They made it political to make the lds church look bad and mislead the public. But I do not see you taking them to task. Why?

Let me put it this way: It seems that MormonThink believes that the lds church lies to the members or misleads them. And yet, with making it all political as if the excommunication was about Dave's opinion of Romney mormonthink has either lied or mislead the public. How to explain it?

Edited September 29, 2012 by why me

[Kenngo1969]

Uh oh....oh, never mind.

WW

Whew! That was close!

[Kenngo1969]

... I will do backflips of apologies if this Twede guy ever sees a disciplinary counsel before the election. And I have no doubt most clear thinking brethren will agree w me silently on this one!

Come on folks, this one is waaay toooooo obvious!

How convenient for you that, if they agree, they'll remain silent! That way, you can pull whatever statistic you want out of a certain part of your anatomy in support of your claim! "97.5 percent of those who have an opinion on the matter agree with me ... they're just scared as the ****ens to actually say so!"

[Bob Oliverio]

WhyMe,

I think you have totally missed the point of my issue.  

I am not taking sides with this Twede fella.  Don't know him nor anything about his blog that seems to be getting so much attention now.  And I'm certainly not taking any stance against the rights of Church disciplinary procedures.

My whole point, to paraphrase, is the difference between being "right" and being "smart".  Those like this character Gordon, and Twede's local bishopric were not very "smart".  Their actions gave him a predictable  national podium which has backfired on the Church and an OUTSTANDING candidate for President. NOT SMART.  Like Twede, I suspect this attention needing Gordon fella is probably either;  1.  some host of another obscure blog or website that either competes with Twede's site or, 2. One of those zealous members on an African Apostate Safari Hunt and looking for a twelve point apostate to mount in his trophy room expecting kudos from the brethren.  He certainly, it would appear, went to the press to impress everyone how he "outted" his target and to make a name for himself.  I know nothing of this Gordon guy or his blog/website either.  But I can't, for the life of me, understand how or why fellow members with happy, meaningful and busy lives find the time to devote to apostate hunts.  And then are not smart enough to understand the public environment of their own consequences.  He and the local stake/ward in Florida made this guy Twede a national figure that didn't need to happen.  NOT SMART.

And the local ward officials, reacting first and thinking second, blindside this Twede fella at Church with an apparent impromptu "love court" that just fuels his anger and even more national attention.  Right, perhaps so.  Smart?  Not even.

That was the whole point of my earlier thread on this issue of "Needing Common Sense".  Fortunately, folks from team Romney and Church officials in Salt Lake have directed cooler and "SMARTER" heads to prevail for the short.  And if we don't think that's what happened, we are being waaay tooooo naive!

I remember the advice of my father walking me to school when I was young, passing by a large sleeping dog: "Son, let the dog sleep, if you wake him he may get annoyed and bite you!".  Looks like the Florida bishopric and this idiot Gordon just learned the difference between being "right" and being "smart"!  They chose to wake the dog!

Great Ryder Cup, eh?

[Sleeper Cell]

I have no doubt that this Twede guy's discipline has nothing to do with his views on Romney. Never thought that for a second. But I also have no doubt that the deferral of his disciplinary meeting has everything to do with Romney. IMHO, this guy was given a national platform because of the lack of common sense amongst a our well meaning but naive brethren in Florida. I also have no doubt, to curb the national attention, Salt Lake stepped in to diffuse the situation which never should have started in the first place. And I would bet a month's wages that this issue was discussed between Salt Lake and Romney team members.

So rather than tentatively accept the Stake President’s explanation that it was a simple scheduling conflict, you assent the following, without any evidence:

1. The decision had everything to do with Romney

2. the stake leadership lacks common sense

3. the stake leadership is naïve

4. Salt Lake stepped in to diffuse the situation

5. They did it to curb the national attention

6. Salt Lake discussed the church hearing schedule with the Romney team.

So much for the “law of parsimony.“

BTW, if his bishop’s scheduling conflict was simply a ruse, how difficult would it be for an enterprising investigative blogger to find out what he was really doing during the originally scheduled time --especially a blogger who lives in the same ward and probably knows him and many of his friends and associates? Of course, it is much easier to simply assert (without evidence) what “Salt Lake” and unnamed members of the Romney team were doing at some indefinite time, than find out what the bishop was “really” doing during a specific time..

[alter idem]

1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him,

5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

When I read Twede's blog post, I thought of the same scripture-- "Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?"

When I read about Twede's situation a couple of weeks ago, I thought of the description of Alma and the Sons of Mosiah; that they went 'about secretly to destroy the church'.

Twede was anonymous for a reason. He didn't want anyone in the church to associate him with his website. As a member in good standing he is able to move among other members and influence them with his opinions and versions of church history, practices and doctrines.

Twede suggests in his 'conclusions' section of his website that members who have lost their faith should remain in the church and use the opportunity to quietly teach and influence members to join them in their cause--to change the church from the inside. But change it to what? Something that people who no longer believe in it's truth claims believe. How would this be a good thing?

This is what happened to the early Christian church and it ended in the church straying from the original teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles, bringing about the apostasy. This is why it is important that the church look carefully at what Twede is doing, what his purpose is and make sure that he cannot use his membership in the church to lead people away from following the Lord's appointed Prophets and leaders and choose instead to follow the opinions and beliefs of men.

And, why did he have to choose paisley?? I love paisley and have a number of items of clothing and accessories in paisley, but I'll think twice about wearing them to church now.

[KevinG]

It was Twede that made this a public issue. It was Twede who made it about politics.

The reason why was to get his 15 minutes of fame and infamy.

If this were up to the church (aka local authorities) it would have been handled privately like every other disciplinary hearing.

[Sky]

Can anybody fill me in on where Scott Gordon of FAIR fits in with all of this? Over at MD, many are dishing up scorn on him for "snitching" on Twede, while singing Twede's praises. Evidently they have no problem with Twede's actions as long as it's perceived to damage the Church.

[california boy]

Unfortunately this whole controversy could have been completely avoided if when finding out that the bishop was not available, the stake president determined when the bishop would be available in the next month. The SP could have checked with other members to see what worked for all of them. Then instead of issuing a non determined postponement, the rescheduled date could have been given. They should be able to find a date sometime within the next month. That would have completely avoided the politicizing of something that should never be politicized.

[why me]

Can anybody fill me in on where Scott Gordon of FAIR fits in with all of this? Over at MD, many are dishing up scorn on him for "snitching" on Twede, while singing Twede's praises. Evidently they have no problem with Twede's actions as long as it's perceived to damage the Church.

I believe that scott gathered information from the website and sent it in to the authorities.

Scott Gordon, president of the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research, a Mormon apologist and media monitoring organization, has said in interviews that he believed Twede was attempting to draw Mormons away from the faith. Gordon had forwarded his concerns about Twede to church leaders in Salt Lake City. In a New York Times article, Twede acknowledged that he tried to shake the beliefs of at least one Mormon couple he had befriended.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/27/david-twede-mormon-blogger-excommuncation_n_1920614.html

It seems that scott was right.

[why me]

Unfortunately this whole controversy could have been completely avoided if when finding out that the bishop was not available, the stake president determined when the bishop would be available in the next month. The SP could have checked with other members to see what worked for all of them. Then instead of issuing a non determined postponement, the rescheduled date could have been given. They should be able to find a date sometime within the next month. That would have completely avoided the politicizing of something that should never be politicized.

Maybe this was done. We have no idea because we have not heard from the SP. We just have one side of the story designed to damage the lds church.

[Tacenda]

deleted

Edited September 30, 2012 by Tacenda

[Bob Oliverio]

I believe that scott gathered information from the website and sent it in to the authorities.

It seems that scott was right.

But just not smart.