Excommunication Cancelled.

[why me]

But just not smart.

But understandable. There are bad feelings on both sides when it comes to FAIR and MormonThink. The point Bob is the nature of the site. It is sad that members can have such a sight about the church. Information can be presented in a positive, faith promoting way or in a negative, doubting way. And for mormonthink it is centered in the negative and doubting that holds sway.

[MormonMason]

But just not smart.

Why not? Should we not protect the Church from the wolves in our midst? How do you think God would feel about those who know something is awry and yet do nothing? I have a particular feeling about this having been on the receiving end of trouble caused me by wolves in our midst. Someone I know experienced far worse. If you knew the details of the situation, I do not think that you would be arguing as you do. Unfortunately, I am not at liberty to discuss those details. I think some members of the Church could use the shock of it all to wake themselves up to a sense of their duty--let the political winds blow where they may. A certain someone getting a second term also may not be so bad if it wakes Americans up to a sense of their duty as voters. The economy might collapse after we are taxed up to our ears and costs go up beyond most peoples' ability to afford, but such a thing certainly would teach an object lesson.

[Bob Crockett]

But just not smart.

I guess from a worldly point of view, perhaps not. But, there is a divine mandate to "cut off" (in Paul's terms, a reference both to excommunication and castration) those who trouble the church (Gal. 5:2). Unfortunately that means that somebody's going to get their hands dirty in the process; unless there is a full confession and a submission to the disciplinary process, somebody's up for worldly criticism.

When I served as a bishop and saw a board poster in my stake (I could identify the ward, but not the poster) talk about something said in a recent stake temple solemn assembly, I felt I had a duty to at least bring the poster's posts to the attention of his bishop. (Who didn't care.)

Edited September 30, 2012 by Bob Crockett

[ERayR]

Why not? Should we not protect the Church from the wolves in our midst? How do you think God would feel about those who know something is awry and yet do nothing? I have a particular feeling about this having been on the receiving end of trouble caused me by wolves in our midst. Someone I know experienced far worse. If you knew the details of the situation, I do not think that you would be arguing as you do. Unfortunately, I am not at liberty to discuss those details. I think some members of the Church could use the shock of it all to wake themselves up to a sense of their duty--let the political winds blow where they may. A certain someone getting a second term also may not be so bad if it wakes Americans up to a sense of their duty as voters. The economy might collapse after we are taxed up to our ears and costs go up beyond most peoples' ability to afford, but such a thing certainly would teach an object lesson.

A very costly lesson economically and in lives.

[thesometimesaint]

MasonMormon:

Except that that certain someone has lowered taxes for everyone. Now maybe if that certain someone had returned taxes to the levels they were in the 1950's Boom Years other certain someones might have a complaint, but not much of one.

[MormonMason]

A very costly lesson economically and in lives.

Yes, but it is the only way some Americans will learn. That is the sad part.

[MormonMason]

MasonMormon:

Except that that certain someone has lowered taxes for everyone. Now maybe if that certain someone had returned taxes to the levels they were in the 1950's Boom Years other certain someones might have a complaint, but not much of one.

Had there not been a backlash and an upcoming election year, we all would be paying taxes for every mile we drive, paying additional carbon taxes on our utilities and for use of gasoline and other fossil fuels, among other things I do not have the inclination to discuss at the moment. Luckily, it was an impending election year and the backlash that occurred, or we would not have been spared that situation. If the vote gives that certain someone his seat for another term, we could well actually experience all of it with a supporting Congress.

[thesometimesaint]

We all ready pay a tax for every mile we drive. How do you think highways, roads and bridges are paid for?

Think of it as a Sin Tax. If you pollute your body with alcohol or tobacco you pay the taxes for those activities. Pollute the natural environment with carbon. You pay the taxes for that activity. Don't you get tired of paying the price for others misdeeds?

[Bob Oliverio]

When I served as a bishop and saw a board poster in my stake (I could identify the ward, but not the poster) talk about something said in a recent stake temple solemn assembly, I felt I had a duty to at least bring the poster's posts to the attention of his bishop.   (Who didn't care.)

For the life of me  - "WHY"?  Do you have that much time on your hands to cruise message boards looking for apostates?  Is their some kind of "prize" for this behavior in our Church?

I'm new, but this type of "member hunting" seems both scary and a way to deter new members as it gets out as  a practice on the web.  I fear we get a reputation as a Church w it's own Gestapo.  That's how this whole "Twede" situation comes across in the major press today!  NOT VERY SMART!!  We really need to rethink this mentality.

[ERayR]

MasonMormon:

Except that that certain someone has lowered taxes for everyone. Now maybe if that certain someone had returned taxes to the levels they were in the 1950's Boom Years other certain someones might have a complaint, but not much of one.

Were you always this susceptible to sleight of hand illusions?

[Bob Crockett]

For the life of me  - "WHY"?  Do you have that much time on your hands to cruise message boards looking for apostates?  Is their some kind of "prize" for this behavior in our Church?

I'm new, but this type of "member hunting" seems both scary and a way to deter new members as it gets out as  a practice on the web.  I fear we get a reputation as a Church w it's own Gestapo.  That's how this whole "Twede" situation comes across in the major press today!  NOT VERY SMART!!  We really need to rethink this mentality.

I don't think that a bishop telling a friend and fellow bishop that a member of his ward posted temple content means that I am a member of some Gestapo. I would rather do something else, actually.

I think there is a fundamental flaw to brand somebody a "snitch" when one has made an oath to support and uphold the church. This isn't Nazi Germany and the Gestapo. This is a community of like-minded believers which can be injured by anonymous inside detractors.

[MormonMason]

We all ready pay a tax for every mile we drive. How do you think highways, roads and bridges are paid for?

Think of it as a Sin Tax. If you pollute your body with alcohol or tobacco you pay the taxes for those activities. Pollute the natural environment with carbon. You pay the taxes for that activity. Don't you get tired of paying the price for others misdeeds?

No, we don't pay such a tax. We pay taxes per gallon of gasoline. This new "test legislation" (that is what they are calling it now up at the Senate) was to add an additional taxation per mile. The department in government responsible for roads and such were tasked with a feasibility study for such a taxation. You don't typically task such a study because of the costs involved unless you intend to pursue something like that.

And, a "sin tax"? Come on. How many people can afford not to use fossil fuels and the vehicles that don't use them at all? Not many. Even the hybrids still produce CO₂. Imagine what would happen to every industry if such taxes became reality. Imagine how much the costs of everything would rise as a result. They don't have electric trucks and cargo ships and planes. Yet, even those would produce CO₂ because the electrical grid that is powered by fossil and other carbon-based fuels does it when power is drawn off to charge such vehicles. It is not the same as with taxes on alcohol and cigarettes and such where it really is a choice for everyone involved. Most people cannot afford to convert to an alternative fuel right now, especially now that one out of every two Americans now sit at or below the Federal Poverty Line since the last three years.

[MormonMason]

I don't think that a bishop telling a friend and fellow bishop that a member of his ward posted temple content means that I am a member of some Gestapo. I would rather do something else, actually.

I think there is a fundamental flaw to brand somebody a "snitch" when one has made an oath to support and uphold the church. This isn't Nazi Germany and the Gestapo. This is a community of like-minded believers which can be injured by anonymous inside detractors.

With all this I agree. Someone I knew had a son who was exposed to porn by a porn ring--in Sunday School! The ringleaders were the Bishop's son and the First Counselor's son. The man's son went in to talk about it with the Bishop of the Ward. After the trouble, it got back to them that he was the one who told the Bishop. They trapped him in a room at night and knocked him around the room, giving him bruises, all the while pretending it was a game. He was shot with pellet guns and left with welts--in the Ward building! The Bishop was approached about it and he did nothing.

In fact, he let it go on and wolves preyed on the innocent. By the time that Ward ceased to exist, some of the youth were having sex in the classrooms! So, yes, there is a need to push out the wolves who will not repent. This doesn't even scratch the surface of what went on there but I know from experience and from what I have witnessed of others to know that things can get horrific when Bishops sit back and do nothing, particularly when they want to protect their friends and children from exposure. The Church absolutely should be protected; the political winds of this nation be damned.

Edited September 30, 2012 by MormonMason

[Tacenda]

With all this I agree. Someone I knew had a son who was exposed to porn by a porn ring--in Sunday School! The ringleaders were the Bishop's son and the First Counselor's son. The man's son went in to talk about it with the Bishop of the Ward. After the trouble, it got back to them that he was the one who told the Bishop. They trapped him in a room at night and knocked him around the room, giving him bruises, all the while pretending it was a game. He was shot with pellet guns and left with welts--in the Ward building! The Bishop was approached about it and he did nothing.

In fact, he let it go on and wolves prayed on the innocent. By the time that Ward ceased to exist, some of the youth were having sex in the classrooms! So, yes, there is a need to push out the wolves who will not repent. This doesn't even scratch the surface of what went on there but I know from experience and from what I have witnessed of others to know that things can get horrific when Bishops sit back and do nothing, particularly when they want to protect their friends and children from exposure. The Church absolutely should be protected; the political winds of this nation be damned.

This is a horrific story and doesn't shine well on Mormons.

[MormonMason]

doublepost...

Edited September 30, 2012 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

This is a horrific story and doesn't shine well on Mormons.

Oh, it was much, much, much worse. But, as I said, I am not at liberty to share the whole of it. But, this is the reason why Bishops need to suck it up and remove the wolves from the flock of God. This is the sort of thing that happens when we don't. Look what happened to the early Christian Church when the apostles were gone. We can prevent that from ever happening again by cleansing the Church as needed. The Book of Mormon sets the example for what we should do. We should do what both the Book of Mormon and Bible teach us to do with those who would prey upon the innocent.

Edited September 30, 2012 by MormonMason

[why me]

In fact, he let it go on and wolves prayed on the innocent.

This could be happening more and more now. I see it more often on the Internet and with sites that are there to cause doubt. The innocent go to the sites, read information, begin to doubt. And yet, the site claims not to be antimormon but pro-truth. And the site may give both interpretations but the stress is on the doubting.

[why me]

This is a horrific story and doesn't shine well on Mormons.

Actually, it doesn't shine well on human nature and not necessarily on the mormons. The social environment has the ability to bring out the best or the worst in us. When the social environment falls, we can fall with it.

[MormonMason]

This could be happening more and more now. I see it more often on the Internet and with sites that are there to cause doubt. The innocent go to the sites, read information, begin to doubt. And yet, the site claims not to be antimormon but pro-truth. And the site may give both interpretations but the stress is on the doubting.

The Church must be cleansed and protected. Members of the Church who publish this sort of tripe seem to have credibility with those who lend their ears and befriend those like them. Take away their membership and they lose a lot of that credibility on the spot. Other members of the Ward are at least less inclined to listen seriously to an excommunicant than to a member who seems to have the blessing of a Bishop who does nothing but let it slide when he knows about it.

Of course, the Spirit should always be guide. I particularly think it was an inspired move not to excommunicate Palmer but to take away his ability to partake of the Sacrament, since that was one of his gospel hobbies. He outed himself from the Church instead. But, in every case God is or should be guide.

[ERayR]

This is a horrific story and doesn't shine well on Mormons Perpetrators.

Perhaps this is what you meant to say. It is much more accurate without the snipe at the church.

[Tacenda]

Perhaps this is what you meant to say. It is much more accurate without the snipe at the church.

That was a snipe? I always thought it was what you hunt at girls camp.

[ERayR]

That was a snipe? I always thought it was what you hunt at girls camp.

They are of about the same substance.

[Scott Lloyd]

Perhaps this is what you meant to say. It is much more accurate without the snipe at the church.

It's a clear example of the guilt-by-association foolishness.

[Scott Lloyd]

With all this I agree. Someone I knew had a son who was exposed to porn by a porn ring--in Sunday School! The ringleaders were the Bishop's son and the First Counselor's son. The man's son went in to talk about it with the Bishop of the Ward. After the trouble, it got back to them that he was the one who told the Bishop. They trapped him in a room at night and knocked him around the room, giving him bruises, all the while pretending it was a game. He was shot with pellet guns and left with welts--in the Ward building! The Bishop was approached about it and he did nothing.

In fact, he let it go on and wolves preyed on the innocent. By the time that Ward ceased to exist, some of the youth were having sex in the classrooms! So, yes, there is a need to push out the wolves who will not repent. This doesn't even scratch the surface of what went on there but I know from experience and from what I have witnessed of others to know that things can get horrific when Bishops sit back and do nothing, particularly when they want to protect their friends and children from exposure. The Church absolutely should be protected; the political winds of this nation be damned.

So many unanswered questions here. Was the dissolution of the ward in any way a consequence of this deplorable neglect by the bishop? Were the wrongdoers ever brought to account? Did the bishop ultimately have to answer for his astoundingly poor judgment?

Edited October 1, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

It's a clear example of the guilt-by-association foolishness.

I am still LDS and I care when a bishop whom has been set apart to take care of his ward family but apparently not HF first choice and it embarrasses me.