Tacenda Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 It's a clear example of the guilt-by-association foolishness.I am still LDS and I care when a bishop whom has been set apart to take care of his ward family but apparently not HF first choice and it embarrasses me.
Tacenda Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) It's a clear example of the guilt-by-association foolishness.I'm still LDS and I care when a bishop who has been set apart to take care of his ward family but is grossly negligent, should never have been called in the first place. Edited October 1, 2012 by Tacenda
ERayR Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 I am still LDS and I care when a bishop whom has been set apart to take care of his ward family but apparently not HF first choice and it embarrasses me.You need not be embarrassed by someone elses choices. You had no control over them. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) I am still LDS and I care when a bishop whom has been set apart to take care of his ward family but apparently not HF first choice and it embarrasses me.It's still guilt by association. And it's still foolish. As for whether or not the bishop was God's first choice, I don't think you're in a position to make that determination. To do so is tantamount to saying the bishop had no control over his actions or was incapable of better behavior. I don't think you have the information to make that judgment call, even if you know the ex-bishop personally -- which I doubt you do. Edited October 1, 2012 by Scott Lloyd 3
Tacenda Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 It's still guilt by association. And it's still foolish. As for whether or not the bishop was God's first choice, I don't think you're in a position to make that determination.They are supposed to be called of God. Many of us feel he is suppose to be very trustworthy and this guy took that trust and trampled it in the ground. Therefore hurt the reputation of the church. Much worse then this Twede guy.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) They are supposed to be called of God. Many of us feel he is suppose to be very trustworthy and this guy took that trust and trampled it in the ground. Therefore hurt the reputation of the church. Much worse then this Twede guy.See the addendum to my post above.I agree that incidents such as this risk bringing the Church into disrepute, but I believe a wise observer will avoid indulging in the guilt-by-association fallacy. Edited October 1, 2012 by Scott Lloyd 1
MormonMason Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 So many unanswered questions here. Did the dissolution of the ward have anything to do with the deplorable neglect by the bishop? Were the wrongdoers ever brought to account?Partly due to that. The member who was the most victimized put up a website detailing the goings on because the Stake President was best buds with the Bishop and was doing nothing about what he was doing--until that website went up. Then the Stake President threatened the member with excommunication for apostasy if he didn't take the web page down. He took it down but warned the Stake President that he had been in contact with the Office of the First Presidency and had written a letter at their request. The Stake President then got a little worried and repeatedly asked him whether the letter had been sent. When they were informed that the letter had not yet been sent they looked relieved.That week, the victimized family was moved to another Ward on the other side of the Stake and the troubled Ward was disbanded, partially combined with another Ward with the problem Bishop as Bishop of that Ward and the members filed off to other Wards in the Stake. The Bishop of that Ward was then released a few weeks later and another called in his place. But, the harassment continued for some time after that until the victimized family fled to another State to escape it.So far as I am aware, the wrongdoers never were brought to justice. My family and I, as well as a number of other families, moved away from that Stake as far as we could get away from there not long afterwards. The harassing family were also Mason-haters and made it miserable for anyone who was a Mason by spreading lies about us Masons worshipping Satan and trying to infiltrate the Church to corrupt it from within. The Bishop of that Ward was all too glad to help spread the word about that. He actually told the Ward Council that the person whom I know, who was at the receiving end of that harassment was "into some very bad things" and instructed the Ward Home Teachers and Visiting Teachers to avoid visiting the family unless absolutely necessary and only if the husband was not home.No Mason felt safe in that Ward and most of us didn't say a word about being Masons because of what it was like in that Stake. Things spread about in that Ward tended to be repeated and spread to other Wards in the Stake. Things told in confidence in the Bishop's office would wander the halls just days after being told behind closed doors. I remember one lady in the Ward who was so traumatized that she left the United States and went back to Japan because something she said in confidence became known and she overheard it being discussed by the Ward Librarian with one of the ladies in there.This is only the barest fraction of the goings on in that Ward that no longer exists. It was horrible for many people. I dare not tell it all in a public place. And, were I to do it, tell it all, it would embarrass certain others who were in that Ward who do not deserve such treatment.Needless to say it was a mess and the whole story has never been told to anybody. But the mess has had lasting results even after the family fled the area. The father in that home became poisoned by carbon monoxide in the home they fled to and has become ill enough that he had not worked for several years. He has received denials from Social Security and receives no help from that. They lost their home as a result of the loss of income and the end of help in their Ward, and now live in a dilapidated mobile home on the outskirts of a smaller city in Utah. The family does not want to be identified and just want to be left alone. They have only recently begun attending Church again after very sporadic attendance with years of inactivity on the part of the husband. But they still are traumatized by the affair and two solid years of harassment and ill treatment. I do not know what good any action would do to the perpetrators this far out after the events of several years ago ended.
ERayR Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 They are supposed to be called of God. Many of us feel he is suppose to be very trustworthy and this guy took that trust and trampled it in the ground. Therefore hurt the reputation of the church. Much worse then this Twede guy.Not much difference, I would say. They didn't do anything to the reputation of the church. The church didn't misbehave. They sure destroyed their own reputations in some circles, 1
ERayR Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Partly due to that. The member who was the most victimized put up a website detailing the goings on because the Stake President was best buds with the Bishop and was doing nothing about what he was doing--until that website went up. Then the Stake President threatened the member with excommunication for apostasy if he didn't take the web page down. He took it down but warned the Stake President that he had been in contact with the Office of the First Presidency and had written a letter at their request. The Stake President then got a little worried and repeatedly asked him whether the letter had been sent. When they were informed that the letter had not yet been sent they looked relieved.That week, the victimized family was moved to another Ward on the other side of the Stake and the troubled Ward was disbanded, partially combined with another Ward with the problem Bishop as Bishop of that Ward and the members filed off to other Wards in the Stake. The Bishop of that Ward was then released a few weeks later and another called in his place. But, the harassment continued for some time after that until the victimized family fled to another State to escape it.So far as I am aware, the wrongdoers never were brought to justice. My family and I, as well as a number of other families, moved away from that Stake as far as we could get away from there not long afterwards. The harassing family were also Mason-haters and made it miserable for anyone who was a Mason by spreading lies about us Masons worshipping Satan and trying to infiltrate the Church to corrupt it from within. The Bishop of that Ward was all too glad to help spread the word about that. He actually told the Ward Council that the person whom I know, who was at the receiving end of that harassment was "into some very bad things" and instructed the Ward Home Teachers and Visiting Teachers to avoid visiting the family unless absolutely necessary and only if the husband was not home.No Mason felt safe in that Ward and most of us didn't say a word about being Masons because of what it was like in that Stake. Things spread about in that Ward tended to be repeated and spread to other Wards in the Stake. Things told in confidence in the Bishop's office would wander the halls just days after being told behind closed doors. I remember one lady in the Ward who was so traumatized that she left the United States and went back to Japan because something she said in confidence became known and she overheard it being discussed by the Ward Librarian with one of the ladies in there.This is only the barest fraction of the goings on in that Ward that no longer exists. It was horrible for many people. I dare not tell it all in a public place. And, were I to do it, tell it all, it would embarrass certain others who were in that Ward who do not deserve such treatment.Needless to say it was a mess and the whole story has never been told to anybody. But the mess has had lasting results even after the family fled the area. The father in that home became poisoned by carbon monoxide in the home they fled to and has become ill enough that he had not worked for several years. He has received denials from Social Security and receives no help from that. They lost their home as a result of the loss of income and the end of help in their Ward, and now live in a dilapidated mobile home on the outskirts of a smaller city in Utah. The family does not want to be identified and just want to be left alone. They have only recently begun attending Church again after very sporadic attendance with years of inactivity on the part of the husband. But they still are traumatized by the affair and two solid years of harassment and ill treatment. I do not know what good any action would do to the perpetrators this far out after the events of several years ago ended.Not to second guess those involved but I know that I would have carried this to as high a level as I could reach. It is indeed deplorable but I still reject Tacenda's proposition that the church bears blame and embarrassment. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Partly due to that. The member who was the most victimized put up a website detailing the goings on because the Stake President was best buds with the Bishop and was doing nothing about what he was doing--until that website went up. Then the Stake President threatened the member with excommunication for apostasy if he didn't take the web page down. He took it down but warned the Stake President that he had been in contact with the Office of the First Presidency and had written a letter at their request. I wish he had complied with the First Presidency's request that he write the letter. Much of this aftermath might have been avoided thereby, and the guilt-bearers might not, at this time, be going forward with unresolved sins on their heads. 1
MormonMason Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) I wish he had complied with the First Presidency's request that he write the letter. Much of this aftermath might have been avoided thereby, and the guilt-bearers might not, at this time, be going forward with unresolved sins on their heads.So do I wish that, too, for all concerned. I also agree with your position that blaming the Church is untenable. If the full details of this episode ever were to become known, it could be of considerable embarrassment for the Church but I think that people would be wrong to blame the Church for this. The family who were on the receiving end actually considered writing a tell-all book, but several members of the Church dissuaded them from doing it. Some who heard any substantial portions of the story actually had their testimonies tested thereby. But, it is not the Church's fault that a Ward became dysfunctional. Those who were involved will pay a heavy price except they repent in sackcloth and ashes. In some ways, that gives satisfaction to the husband in the home of the victims, knowing that some of them never will repent, but, then again, he is not the same man that he was. That much is sure.But, this is case in point for protecting the Church from wolves and other predators. Edited October 1, 2012 by MormonMason 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 But, this is case in point for protecting the Church from wolves and other predators.Absolutely. Of all places where one can go, the Church is and ought to be seen as a sanctuary. That's why I reject the notion that I see from time to time that Sunday School and other Church classes ought to be given over as a forum to antagonists for their complaints and criticisms. 2
MormonMason Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Absolutely. Of all places where one can go, the Church is and ought to be seen as a sanctuary.That's why I reject the notion that I see from time to time that Sunday School and other Church classes ought to be given over as a forum to antagonists for their complaints and criticisms.I also reject that same premise. I think the idea is ridiculous and yet another reason to cleanse the Church from the wolves among us. I actually was the victim of angry antagonists. Every time a guy who was an antagonist brought something up that he designed to shake up the membership and I put him in his place, so to speak, there was always one other antagonist, a female, who would ask whether a particular statement or phrase I used from an ancient book had approval from the Church.Of course, not everything I quote from these ancient texts would have tacit approval from the Church. At any rate, they worked together to get the Bishop to have me removed from my Gospel Doctrine calling. I in all cases stuck with the manual for the main lesson, and most people knew that, but tired hearing complaints from them, the Bishop removed me from the calling anyway.A lot of people were upset about that and flatly stated that I was the best teacher they ever had but the Bishop wouldn't budge. And then these antagonists had free reign to do as they were before. So, I began putting up my hand frequently to answer questions raised by them. I ended up being reassigned to another class to teach and could no longer be there to answer the claims of the antagonists. These people finally stopped coming to Church but who knows how much damage was done when they were there? I no longer live in that Ward.Note: This was in another Ward, not the one mentioned above. 1
Calm Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 But just not smart.Depends on what he was trying to accomplish.Knowing Scott, I have no doubt that whatever he did, it wasn't stupid or carelessly thought about.
Calm Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 A very costly lesson economically and in lives.If the Church acting on information about an apostate who was attempting to deconvert others is the cause of someone losing an election then the individual who lost the election would have to be a very weak candidate, imo.
Calm Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) For the life of me - "WHY"? Do you have that much time on your hands to cruise message boards looking for apostates? Is their some kind of "prize" for this behavior in our Church?I'm new, but this type of "member hunting" seems both scary and a way to deter new members as it gets out as a practice on the web. I fear we get a reputation as a Church w it's own Gestapo. That's how this whole "Twede" situation comes across in the major press today! NOT VERY SMART!! We really need to rethink this mentality.No one at FAIR needs to go out and look for apostates. People write us asking questions about anti-mormon sites. Others send us links to brag about them. I can assure you that most, if not all, would much rather spend their time doing other things than looking at anti sites, but we do it in order to help out fellow saints in trouble, to answer their questions.I don't really care if the press thinks that it's weird or whatever, I see no reason to stand by and not act as necessary to help someone in need who has asked for help, even if that includes pointing out that the person that has them troubled is lying, manipulative, etc.Do you think that if someone saw a person lying on the sidewalk bleeding one should refrain from helping that person out of fear of being sued or accused even of being the attacker? Edited October 1, 2012 by calmoriah
why me Posted October 1, 2012 Author Posted October 1, 2012 I am still LDS and I care when a bishop whom has been set apart to take care of his ward family but apparently not HF first choice and it embarrasses me.Bishop's are not perfect. In fact, no one is. Bishops will make mistakes, especially in their personal lives. And a bishop can not be everywhere at one time. Things happen. This is no different for catholic priests or protestant pastors. They also make mistakes. I wouldn't be embarrassed by other people's imperfections.
why me Posted October 1, 2012 Author Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) This thread is also about the church and how critics interpret its history and the church's interpetation of it or what past leaders have said or didn't say.I have never expected perfection in anyone's life. Nor do I expect a perfected history made up of perfect people. However, it would be nice if all mormons were perfect and always making perfect decisions. Edited October 1, 2012 by why me
why me Posted October 1, 2012 Author Posted October 1, 2012 If the Church acting on information about an apostate who was attempting to deconvert others is the cause of someone losing an election then the individual who lost the election would have to be a very weak candidate, imo.What is amazing Cal is the strategy of the certain segments of the press. Nothing has changed much from the time of the early saints. The press handled the mormon situation rather unfortuntely with their yellow journalism. And at times we can see the same from the press today, but much more toned down. Linking his excommunication with Romney was a stroke of genius by the mormonthink board. Also, releasing it to the liberal media was also a stroke of genius. It got its play for 15 minutes and made the blogger newsworthy and made the church look foolish which is the goal of mormonthink.The SP never saw this coming because it wasn't about Romney but it was about the blogger's posts about the church and the direction of mormonthink.
Avatar4321 Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) I think common sense finally kicked in, obviously w a little pressure from Salt Lake. I think it will be re-scheduled sometime after the election. And (sarcasm noted) why would we fast for the guy who supposedly sullied the face of the Church?!?! Did any of the stakes in Nevada ask members to fast when Mr. Reid was debating Sharon Angle two years ago?If someone sullied the face of the Church, which is unlikely in a political context, wouldn't fasting be the logical thing to do? Wouldn't we want that person to be reconciled with the Lord and stop sullying the name of the Church? Edited October 1, 2012 by Avatar4321
Avatar4321 Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 I have no doubt that this Twede guy's discipline has nothing to do with his views on Romney. Never thought that for a second. But I also have no doubt that the deferral of his disciplinary meeting has everything to do with Romney. IMHO, this guy was given a national platform because of the lack of common sense amongst a our well meaning but naive brethren in Florida. I also have no doubt, to curb the national attention, Salt Lake stepped in to diffuse the situation which never should have started in the first place. And I would bet a month's wages that this issue was discussed between Salt Lake and Romney team members. Come on folks!! Let's stand up for our beliefs - but let's not be naive as to what's going on with this situation.So we should believe there is some wild conspiracy going on to protect the Romney campaign despite the fact that the Stake President has allegedly stated the reason was because the man's Bishop was unavailable? Why should we assume the Stake President is lying? 2
Avatar4321 Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 I guess from a worldly point of view, perhaps not. But, there is a divine mandate to "cut off" (in Paul's terms, a reference both to excommunication and castration) those who trouble the church (Gal. 5:2). Unfortunately that means that somebody's going to get their hands dirty in the process; unless there is a full confession and a submission to the disciplinary process, somebody's up for worldly criticism.When I served as a bishop and saw a board poster in my stake (I could identify the ward, but not the poster) talk about something said in a recent stake temple solemn assembly, I felt I had a duty to at least bring the poster's posts to the attention of his bishop. (Who didn't care.)There are stake temple solemn assemblies?
MormonMason Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 There are stake temple solemn assemblies?Yes.
MormonMason Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 If the Church acting on information about an apostate who was attempting to deconvert others is the cause of someone losing an election then the individual who lost the election would have to be a very weak candidate, imo.Agreed. 1
MormonMason Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Bishop's are not perfect. In fact, no one is. Bishops will make mistakes, especially in their personal lives. And a bishop can not be everywhere at one time. Things happen. This is no different for catholic priests or protestant pastors. They also make mistakes. I wouldn't be embarrassed by other people's imperfections.Agreed. In fact, the Church of God of Prophecy down the road where I used to live ended up having some nastiness that led to its shutdown. Several of the children were molested by one the Pastors. That church building is now owned by Muslims and turned into a Masjid (Mosque).
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