Missionary Work In The After-Life

[MiserereNobis]

I don't believe there will be LDS vs everyone else. I believe there will simply be the truth. Catholics may recognize it as Catholicism, Protestants may see it as Protestantism, and LDS will see it as Mormonism.

So, even after death I can keep on being a Catholic? That's great news

[Flyonthewall]

I don't believe the 12 Disciples thought they were anything else but Jews. As I see it, you may still see whatever new truths that are taught as an extension of Catholicism, even if they line up with what LDS have been teaching.

[Calm]

I think we shall all most likely view ourselves as part of the Church of the Firstborn or the Body of Christ.

[Sis W.]

D&C 6:16-"--there is none else save God that knowest thy thoughts and the intents of thy heart." Emotions---Likley

[Tacenda]

So, even after death I can keep on being a Catholic? That's great news

Yes, you just don't live in the Celestial Kingdom where the Father lives, I've been told.

[blackstrap]

There needs be opposition in all things. I now refer you to Blackstrap 3:7 wherein it says," In order for there to be a proper choice,there will be,in spirit prison, a variety of persuasive voices. "

[Flyonthewall]

Yes, you just don't live in the Celestial Kingdom where the Father lives, I've been told.

As I see it, if one chooses to accept all the truths and the ordinances, and still want to hold on to the label of Catholic, that will not exclude them from the Celestial Kingdom.

[Tacenda]

As I see it, if one chooses to accept all the truths and the ordinances, and still want to hold on to the label of Catholic, that will not exclude them from the Celestial Kingdom.

Ok, gotcha.

[mfbukowski]

Does the LDS interpretation of the verses refer to those in spirit prison? It seems to go against the LDS concept of free-will if those in spirit prison have the truth blatantly in front of them and then are asked to choose. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.

No they still have free will. The explanation is that missionaries will still teach there as happens here and some will accept and probably others will not- at least not at first.

We don't know who has had a fair chance here- but God does, and what we are assured is that all will have a fair chance of passing the test either on this side or on the other side of the veil of death.

Remember that those verses about every knee bowing refer to the ultimate outcome, not the process. The truth will slowly become obvious just as the sun rising every morning is obvious to everyone on earth- and that does not harm one's freedom to deny that the sun rises. One is free to deny that- they are just wrong, that's all. The sun indeed does rise.

In fact maybe high school is a good analogy for the whole process, since it is also a long-term test of sorts.

Some study and get consistent A's and others really just want to hang out and party or goof off, and even some who are studious will study the wrong subjects or lose their notebooks, or through no fault of their own will end up having the dog eat their homework, or who knows what.

Remember the kingdoms of glory are divided as rewards to those who catch on the fastest and exercise the most faith. It's a test- and tests don't diminish your capacity to get the wrong answer and be rewarded with a grade befitting your wrong answers or your right answers.

But this test will be administered by the ultimate Perfect and Just Teacher.

When the Teacher reveals the answers to the test- everyone will know how they did, and they will know the test was fair. Those who studied hardest will get the A's and even those who "fail" will acknowledge the truth that they messed up- but everyone gets to go to the class party anyway, except a very few hard core rebels who see the sun rise and deny that it is shining.

And those who were not very "studious" - will still be in the party as well- having a great time hanging out with all the others who didn't want to study either because those things didn't interest them.

Those who are most studious will get to hang out at the Teacher's table- which will probably be "boooooorrrriiinnnnggg" to those who want to hang out with their buddies. Those at the teacher's table are comfortable with the Teacher and will want to learn more, hanging on to every word, taking notes and progressing even further, while those playing pool in the back will be having the time of their lives. Every single person there will be doing what they want to do and deserve to do- after all- it's grad night isn't it?

Some at the Teacher's table will go on to start their own schools and have their own students eventually- just as their Teacher has done, but the Teacher will always be their Teacher and remain infinitely above them because their Teacher already had schools without number before the students were even born. But being a perfect Teacher, he will always be there for them to learn from and to guide them in everything they do.

Edited September 16, 2012 by mfbukowski

[MormonMason]

Well, these tape-recorded exorcisms are pretty powerful evidence to the contrary, as the demon, via the possessed, discloses information about the priest, his thoughts, his personal doubts, and his past.

But yeah, satan's power is definitely limited by the power of God.

Consider the following:

Yea, I tell thee, that thou mayest know that there is none else save God that knowest thy thoughts and the intents of thy heart. (See Doctrine and Covenants 6:16 cf. 6:22-23).

Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men; ) (See 1 Kings 8:39 cf. 2 Chronicles 6:30).

Demons can read your facial expressions, motor reactions, and chemical emissions. Sometimes, it is not difficult to deduce thoughts and feelings in reaction to what they are saying with that kind of advantage. They do not know any specifics of your thoughts except what they see manifested externally, have seen in the context of a person's life, or what they have placed there and/or set in motion themselves. They are masters of deception and have no problems with telling the truth if it will get you to swallow an entire lie or go a direction they need or want you to go for their overall purposes.

Edited September 16, 2012 by MormonMason

[mfbukowski]

So, even after death I can keep on being a Catholic? That's great news

Heck you can do it now. All you have to realize is that the Pope lives in Salt Lake City and that we all wear religious habits under our clothes and that spirit prison is purgatory, and that we perform the mass in the temple while everyone else meets in the Baptistry of the Cathedral just doing the Mass of the Catechumens

Throw in the fact that Mary is Heavenly Mother and Neoplatonic philosophy is pagan Greek stuff and has no place in Christian thought and you're there!

See how easy it is?

Edited September 16, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Oh yeah- and the Real Presence is kind of real but mostly symbolic. After all he IS there when two or more are gathered in His Name, right?

[mfbukowski]

So now we are bearing testimonies of demons? Great idea.

Let's see, we bear testimonies of Christ to invite Christ and the Spirit into our meetings, right?

So if we have a meeting to bear testimony of demons will will invite.......

Uh

Are we sure we want to do this?

[Storm Rider]

So, even after death I can keep on being a Catholic? That's great news

This is just me, but I tend to think that after this life the labels Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, LDS, etc. no longer have merit. There are those who are in the Kingdom of God and those who are not. There are many mansions there, but they are all in the Kingdom. All truth will be recognized as such, a unity of the faith will be achieved.

[Tacenda]

This is just me, but I tend to think that after this life the labels Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, LDS, etc. no longer have merit. There are those who are in the Kingdom of God and those who are not. There are many mansions there, but they are all in the Kingdom. All truth will be recognized as such, a unity of the faith will be achieved.

This sounds like a nice analogy, so not like what I was taught though, but wish were true.

[Stargazer]

Greetings!

I'd like to start a discussion on the Mormon cosmological view of the after-life, especially as regards missionary work. Here are some initial questions I have -- feel free to answer any of them you'd like

1) My assumption is that this work is taking place in spirit prison. Those in paradise have already accepted the LDS church and the proxy temple work that has been done for them, yes?

1. Yes.

1. No. Spirit Prison is for those who have done evil. Paradise is for those who have been more-or-less righteous. When Jesus said to the thief that he would be with him today in Paradise, the thief didn't know Jesus from Adam, and couldn't have been a member of Christ's Church yet. He was to go to Paradise because of his evident repentance. (Although you will note that the story varies between gospels -- in some, both thieves mock Christ, not just one).

Missionary work takes place in both places. As found in DC 138, Christ himself visited those in Paradise before his resurrection and preached to them, but to those in Spirit Prison he sent servants to preach and did not himself go among them. Even today, those who pass from this life who have been righteous but ignorant about Christ must be taught there and given the opportunity to accept or reject Him; while those who were not go to the other place, and receive the same opportunity.

2) What is spirit prison like? What is going on there besides missionary work? Could it have any relation to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, where souls are paying for the temporal effects of their sins so as to be perfectly clean before entering Heaven?

2. Spirit Prison is hell. There people suffer for their sins. You can see why missionary work will probably be easier there. "Do you want out of here?" will be a good door approach.

2. I beg to differ somewhat. Those in Spirit Prison are in an intermediary state. Without bodies they cannot suffer, per se, and the locale may only be unpleasant. Besides, suffering for sins in the sense of the ultimate suffering that Jesus frees us from can only take place after resurrection and judgement, and those in SP have neither been judged nor resurrected.

3) What is paradise like? Is everyone involved in missionary work? Do the souls in paradise have any interaction with humans on earth?

3. In paradise there is rest and peace. The rest is due to not being afflicted with tiredness. It will be a busy place. Some will be missionaries. So,e are involved with work for the dead and helping with genealogy. There will also presimably be those teaching the saints as well and they will progress. There may be other activities we either do not know of or even cannot comprehend without having been in this state.

3. Agreed.

4) How could someone in spirit prison not accept the teachings of the missionaries there? I think it would be very simple for the missionaries to point out, "look at where you are -- you're in the midst of LDS cosmology, so the LDS church must be true." Is there the possibility of missionaries for other religions operating there? Could a deceased Catholic in spirit prison tell other souls that they must be in Purgatory because they are suffering and therefore the Catholic Church is true?

4. Other then the knowledge that there is an afterlife knowledge will not increase. I imagine some will even convince themselves that they are already in heaven. I have seen almost no limit to human capacity for self-deception. Learned from the best on that (me).

4. Agreed. There will be many who will be there and wondering what the heck happened. For example, a Muslim suicide bomber will be perplexed that he not only seems to be missing his 72 virgins, but that he is also missing a body, and he will be aggrieved about this. If some person approaches him and tries to teach him about Christ, he may reject this due to his previous expectations, and may even think that he must have sinned in some way and he is being punished by Allah. A native from the Brazilian rain forests who had previously only seen 20 - 30 people in one place in his entire life may be completely flummoxed by the multitudes present, and also painfully aware that where he is doesn't match his cosmology at all. He may be very willing to hear about this new place, and may be happy to hear about Christ.

It seems possible that there may be Catholics there attempting to minister to fellow Catholics. There's going to be lots of Priests and Nuns there, after all, and perhaps there is even a post-life Catholic Church organization functioning. Who gets to the be Pope, however? The latest one to arrive? There might be some confusion over why Leo X is there, but not Peter.

I agree with The Nehor that there's going to be a lot of self-deception and -justification going on.

The place sounds like it is going to be very interesting, though.

Your certainly pose interesting questions, Your Holiness!

[Stargazer]

Outer Darkness is the ultimate destination at the time of Judgment. Spirit Prison (which functions as both a teaching place for those who haven't had a chance yet to accept Christ as their Redeemer and a place of penance for those that won't accept the Atonement) would function as a holding place for those bound for OD as well as for others who will eventually accept Christ as their Lord, whether or not they accept the Atonement itself.

There is debate on exactly what Alma was talking about, spirit prison or the actual hell we call Outer Darkness today. Most tend to interpret it as the spirit prison. I believe (can't guarantee it) that we have just adapted that term for our own purpose as it evokes a vision of the final destination quite well in my view.

Outer Darkness is the destination of the Sons of Perdition, and is not a kingdom of Glory like the Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestrial. OD is not SP.

[Stargazer]

How does one accept Jesus as the Christ but not accept His Sacrifice? That seems rather impossible to me, since the whole purpose of Jesus' life was His Sacrifice.

Yes, but while it is said that "Every knee shall bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Christ," there will be some who will not accept His Sacrifice, but all will acknowledge Him and Lord (you do recall the scripture where Jesus said, not everyone who calls him Lord, Lord will enter His Kingdom?). Those who do not accept His Sacrifice will have to suffer for their own sins. That suffering will complete their punishment, but it will not lift them up, and they will dwell in the Telestial Kingdom, where the Holy Spirit will minister to them, but where they will be eternally shut out from the presence of the Father and the Son .

[The Nehor]

1. No. Spirit Prison is for those who have done evil. Paradise is for those who have been more-or-less righteous. When Jesus said to the thief that he would be with him today in Paradise, the thief didn't know Jesus from Adam, and couldn't have been a member of Christ's Church yet. He was to go to Paradise because of his evident repentance. (Although you will note that the story varies between gospels -- in some, both thieves mock Christ, not just one).

Missionary work takes place in both places. As found in DC 138, Christ himself visited those in Paradise before his resurrection and preached to them, but to those in Spirit Prison he sent servants to preach and did not himself go among them. Even today, those who pass from this life who have been righteous but ignorant about Christ must be taught there and given the opportunity to accept or reject Him; while those who were not go to the other place, and receive the same opportunity.

2. I beg to differ somewhat. Those in Spirit Prison are in an intermediary state. Without bodies they cannot suffer, per se, and the locale may only be unpleasant. Besides, suffering for sins in the sense of the ultimate suffering that Jesus frees us from can only take place after resurrection and judgement, and those in SP have neither been judged nor resurrected.

3. Agreed.

4. Agreed. There will be many who will be there and wondering what the heck happened. For example, a Muslim suicide bomber will be perplexed that he not only seems to be missing his 72 virgins, but that he is also missing a body, and he will be aggrieved about this. If some person approaches him and tries to teach him about Christ, he may reject this due to his previous expectations, and may even think that he must have sinned in some way and he is being punished by Allah. A native from the Brazilian rain forests who had previously only seen 20 - 30 people in one place in his entire life may be completely flummoxed by the multitudes present, and also painfully aware that where he is doesn't match his cosmology at all. He may be very willing to hear about this new place, and may be happy to hear about Christ.

It seems possible that there may be Catholics there attempting to minister to fellow Catholics. There's going to be lots of Priests and Nuns there, after all, and perhaps there is even a post-life Catholic Church organization functioning. Who gets to the be Pope, however? The latest one to arrive? There might be some confusion over why Leo X is there, but not Peter.

I agree with The Nehor that there's going to be a lot of self-deception and -justification going on.

The place sounds like it is going to be very interesting, though.

Your certainly pose interesting questions, Your Holiness!

For 1 and 2 I disagree. According to the Book of Mormon where Alma prayed to know what would happen between death and resurrection only those who have accepted the gospel throughh baptism go to paradise. As for the thief that is a bad translation. Jesus appears to have actually told him that together they would go to the "world of spirits". From what I have been told Greek has no term for paradise. Presumably when Jesus went to paradise and organized the preaching of the dead he gave those who would go to Spirit Prison a referral.

I admit I do not like this teaching as it means just about everyone who dies after reaching accountability goes to hell. I imagine there are degrees of suffering there at least. I am hoping the first two principles of the gospel, faith and repentance, have full effect before vicarious work is done and can lessen their suffering some. I once heard an apostle speak on the subject and he said he had prayed to know what prison is like and that he now believes it is in no way a pleasant place. Good incentive to go to the Temple regularly in any case.

[Flyonthewall]

...

2. I beg to differ somewhat. Those in Spirit Prison are in an intermediary state. Without bodies they cannot suffer, per se, and the locale may only be unpleasant. Besides, suffering for sins in the sense of the ultimate suffering that Jesus frees us from can only take place after resurrection and judgement, and those in SP have neither been judged nor resurrected.

As I have heard, and understand it, Spirit Prison, while it is a place of teaching, can also be viewed as a temporary stay in Outer Darkness where those who do not partake of the atonement suffer for their own sins. It is not until that is done that they are resurrected to a kingdom of glory.

There is an initial judgement in that it is decided one goes to either "paradise" or spirit prison, but not the final judgement.

Sons of perdition will be resurrected but go to outer darkness, which is the ultimate suffering, even more so than the devil and his minions as, sop's have a physical body.

The kind of suffering that goes on in Spirit prison, though it may not be physical, it will be mental/emotional/spiritual. Mental anguish caused by the realization that "I blew it"(so to speak).

As I have heard many times, although murders and rapists etc will be resurrected to a kingdom of glory, they will have to go thru heck(ll) to get there.

(I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, so I am open to correction)

[Calm]

Paradise

According to the prophet Alma, the righteous spirits rest from earthly care and sorrow. Nevertheless, they are occupied in doing the work of the Lord. President Joseph F. Smith saw in a vision that immediately after Jesus Christ was crucified, He visited the righteous in the spirit world. He appointed messengers, gave them power and authority, and commissioned them to “carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men” (D&C 138:30).

The Church is organized in the spirit world, and priesthood holders continue their responsibilities there (see D&C 138:30). President Wilford Woodruff taught: “The same Priesthood exists on the other side of the veil. … Every Apostle, every Seventy, every Elder, etc., who has died in the faith as soon as he passes to the other side of the veil, enters into the work of the ministry” (Deseret News, Jan. 25, 1882, 818).

Family relationships are also important. President Jedediah M. Grant, a counselor to Brigham Young, saw the spirit world and described to Heber C. Kimball the organization that exists there: “He said that the people he there saw were organized in family capacities. … He said, ‘When I looked at families, there was a deficiency in some, … for I saw families that would not be permitted to come and dwell together, because they had not honored their calling here’” (Deseret News, Dec. 10, 1856, 316–17).

Spirit Prison

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

[Calm]

So now we are bearing testimonies of demons? Great idea......

Are we sure we want to do this?

I don't think people should obsess over demons, possession, etc. That does tend to invite a negative spirit (even if all that means is one of attitude). However, I think it is important at times to recognize the effect negative presences (whether our fellow mortals or something else) can have in order to teach people how to resist it.

[cdowis]

Heck you can do it now. All you have to realize is that the Pope lives in Salt Lake City and that we all wear religious habits under our clothes and that spirit prison is purgatory, and that we perform the mass in the temple while everyone else meets in the Baptistry of the Cathedral just doing the Mass of the Catechumens

Throw in the fact that Mary is Heavenly Mother and Neoplatonic philosophy is pagan Greek stuff and has no place in Christian thought and you're there!

See how easy it is?

This post is thoughtless, and very inappropriate for our guest.

It is not at all humerous and borders on mockery.

[cdowis]

PopeStPiusX,

There is a basic principle that the scriptures teach us. People who go to the other side keep their character the same. Only in this life do we have the opportunity to "repent", to change and to be re-born.

The Lord tells us that this work will only convert those who would have received it in this life, who lived a good, righteous life and had good moral character. I remember a recent post from an atheist who wrote, "Even if there is life after death, that doesn't prove that there is a god."

As Christ taught in the parable

Luke 16:

[27] Then (the rich man) said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This concept has been clearly taught in modern day revelation. This life is the day for repentence.

Finally, there is a difference in how one accepts Christ. One accepts Him only when he beholds his power and glory, another accepts him as the Saviour, and the last accepts His covenants and lives the life required by those covenants.

Those who are not willing to take on those covenants administered by His priesthood, but if they live a good life, will live in the presence of Chist for eternity. Some call this place "heaven" or the terrestrial kingdom. So, yes, you can indeed live in heaven if you so choose. But you cannot reside in the presence of the Father unless you accept those covenants. There is a veil beyond which one cannot pass without those covenants administered only in the temples.

Hope that helps clarify things for you.

Edited September 16, 2012 by cdowis

[zerinus]

I haven’t read through the thread, and what I am saying may have already been said by others; but here are my replies. I am going to answer your questions out of order:

Greetings!

I'd like to start a discussion on the Mormon cosmological view of the after-life, especially as regards missionary work. Here are some initial questions I have -- feel free to answer any of them you'd like

2) What is spirit prison like? What is going on there besides missionary work? Could it have any relation to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, where souls are paying for the temporal effects of their sins so as to be perfectly clean before entering Heaven?

3) What is paradise like? Is everyone involved in missionary work? Do the souls in paradise have any interaction with humans on earth?

Alma in the Book of Mormon has answered most of the above questions. The LDS answer to those questions is mainly derived from that source:

Alma 40:

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

See also D&C 138. As far as comparing the state of the wicked (or at least of some of them) in the spirit world to purgatory in Catholic theology, I would say yes, there is a parallel between the two. Also there are indications that people both in paradise as well as in “outer darkness” are able to influence the thoughts and actions of the people of this world.

1) My assumption is that this work is taking place in spirit prison. Those in paradise have already accepted the LDS church and the proxy temple work that has been done for them, yes?

Assuming that what you call “spirit prison” is the same as what Alma calls “outer darkness,” it does not follow that all those who are in paradise have accepted the gospel, and the rest haven’t. Paradise is for people who are have been good and righteous in this life, regardless of whether they had accepted the gospel in this life or not. Good people of all churches and religions will go to paradise after death; but when they get there they may not enjoy certain privileges until they accept the fullness of the gospel in the next life.

4) How could someone in spirit prison not accept the teachings of the missionaries there? I think it would be very simple for the missionaries to point out, "look at where you are -- you're in the midst of LDS cosmology, so the LDS church must be true."

It need not work that way. You are making too many assumptions about LDS belief that are not justified. People in either place are there because that is where their disposition makes them most comfortable to be. People who have acquired a hellish disposition through their actions in this life will find it more distressing if taken to heaven than by dwelling with their own kind in hell. For the same reason, they may not even accept the gospel when it is preached to them there. Basically people may reject the message the gospel in there for the same reasons that they might do it here.

Is there the possibility of missionaries for other religions operating there? Could a deceased Catholic in spirit prison tell other souls that they must be in Purgatory because they are suffering and therefore the Catholic Church is true?

Again, you are making too many assumptions about what either place is like. It may simply not work that way.