mfbukowski Posted September 16, 2012 Posted September 16, 2012 (edited) This post is thoughtless, and very inappropriate for our guest.It is not at all humerous and borders on mockery.I did NOT intend to offend anyone and if it was offensive I apologize and retract it all.In fact that process reflected some of the ways I thought of things when as a former Catholic I became a Mormon. The point I was trying to make is that the transition is not really that huge, in fact there are a couple of posters I am aware of who at least used to think of themselves as both Mormon AND Catholic simultaneously, and used to attend both services.I never fully understood that, but the fact that more than one person thought that was possible was quite revealing to me. Mockery certainly was not my goal since my entire inherited family (as opposed to the family I have created with my wife) is Catholic and always has been, and I love them dearly.Mocking Catholics would be mocking my own flesh and blood. That was certainly not my intention.Maybe you need to get a sense of humor. Edited September 16, 2012 by mfbukowski
Calm Posted September 16, 2012 Posted September 16, 2012 I did intend to offend anyone......"Not"s can be such tricky things.
mfbukowski Posted September 16, 2012 Posted September 16, 2012 "Not"s can be such tricky things. Holy mackeral. Freud would have a field day with that! I will go back and change it immediately- thanks!
zerinus Posted September 16, 2012 Posted September 16, 2012 Very little is spoken of it in the scriptures. Here is an article on 'paradise'.http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/ParadiseThanks for the link.I read that link and it contains many errors. Don't take it as gospel truth.I was curious about this part:This darkness is sometimes referred to as spirit prison, hell, or even "outer darkness" (Alma 40:13-14).I thought spirit prison and outer darkness were two different things. Isn't outer darkness more like the traditional Christian hell, a place of complete separation from God with no possibility of reprieve, where souls are sent after the final judgement?Not according to the Book of Mormon usage. Alma uses the phrase "outer darkness" to refer to the unhappy place in the spirit world. In fact, I am not aware of any scripture that uses it in any other way.
zerinus Posted September 16, 2012 Posted September 16, 2012 Outer Darkness is the ultimate destination at the time of Judgment....According to LDS lore maybe, but not according to scriptural usage.
mfbukowski Posted September 16, 2012 Posted September 16, 2012 I read that link and it contains many errors. Don't take it as gospel truth.The church itself uses the Encyclopedia of Mormonism in manuals on a routine basis, but Zerinus says it contains errors. I am not saying that it is perfect, and it is certainly NOT canonized by in any way shape or form and unless the church approves the specific article I wouldn't even use it in a Sunday School class.But if I had a choice between The Gospel According to Zerinus and the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, there would not be a flicker of a doubt which I would pick and my choice would not contain the letter Z.I mean I don't want to be too direct or anything....
zerinus Posted September 16, 2012 Posted September 16, 2012 But again, wouldn't this go against the idea of free-will? Or do you mean that when Christ is revealed in His glory, all will acknowledge it, even though it is too late for that acknowledgment to have an effect on the eternal state of their soul? That would be the Catholic understanding, or at least my understanding of the Catholic understanding At the Second Coming the wicked will be destroyed, and only the righteous will survive, who will then reign on earth for a thousand years with Jesus, and all the righteous saints who had previously lived, who will then be resurrected.
zerinus Posted September 16, 2012 Posted September 16, 2012 So, even after death I can keep on being a Catholic? That's great news After death you certainly can keep on being a Catholic. But you may not get too many chances to debate with Mormons any more!
Calm Posted September 16, 2012 Posted September 16, 2012 According to LDS lore maybe, but not according to scriptural usage.As I referred to in the second half of my post you did not quote.
cdowis Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) IAssuming that what you call “spirit prison” is the same as what Alma calls “outer darkness,” it does not follow that all those who are in paradise have accepted the gospel, and the rest haven’t. Paradise is for people who are have been good and righteous in this life, regardless of whether they had accepted the gospel in this life or not. Good people of all churches and religions will go to paradise after death; but when they get there they may not enjoy certain privileges until they accept the fullness of the gospel in the next life.Christ told the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in Paradise". However after the resurrection, He told Mary that He had not ascended to the Father. If paradise is indeed heaven, the Father does not dwell there.However, the concept of paradise is very tricky and the article in Encyclopedia of Mormonism is very carefully done and I personally found no fault. I have to agree with the "missing Z" comment. Edited September 17, 2012 by cdowis
blackstrap Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 We often tell others not to tell us what we believe. They might as well,seeing that we have a hard time deciding the details ourselves.Along with what Volgadon mentioned about empirical evidence,NDE experiencers generally present an up or down place,at least initially.Mostly they describe a paradise-like place. We should remember that the quotations about spirit prison also are connected to the people who lived during Noah's time.Apparently they were QUITE wicked.
zerinus Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Christ told the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in Paradise". However after the resurrection, He told Mary that He had not ascended to the Father. If paradise is indeed heaven, the Father does not dwell there.Paradise in that context means the happy state, the place of the righteous in the spirit world. Nobody is arguing that it means anything else.However, the concept of paradise is very tricky and the article in Encyclopedia of Mormonism is very carefully done and I personally found no fault. I have to agree with the "missing Z" comment.The word Paradise is used in traditional Christian parlance to refer to heaven in general; but in Alma as well as in Luke it is used to refer to the happy state of the righteous in the spirit world. The article in the Encyclopedia is generally correct except for the following passage:The Savior's reference to paradise in Luke 23:43 pertains neither to heaven, nor to a specific place of righteous spirits, but to the spirit world in general, since the thief was not prepared to enter into the abode of the righteous.... The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the thief on the cross was to be with Jesus Christ "in the world of spirits" (he did not say paradise or heaven). "Hades, Sheol, paradise, spirits in prison, are all one: it is a world of spirits. The righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits" (TPJS, pp. 309-310).That statement is manifestly incorrect. Paradise in that context doesn't just mean the spirit world in general. It means the abode of the righteous in the spirit world where Jesus Himself was going, and where the thief was also going to be with Jesus where He was going. I agree that this does not justify "death bed repentance;" but like it or not, the implication of the above is that the thief on the cross was indeed forgiven, and promised a place in the abode of the righteous in the spirit world. Joseph Smith was mistaken to make that association, and so is the article in the Encyclopedia.
Alan Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) The fact of the matter is that we know practically nothing about the detail of what comes next. I believe we, along with most Christians, spent far too much time speculating about the next life, instead of trying to make the very best of this one. I believe the essence of what Joseph Smith taught is that we can make a heaven on earth. I would add that we do this one person at a time, starting with ourselves.When we do this we will have the confidence, regarding the next life, that whatever will be will be.Then again, I am one of a small number of LDS who believe that reincarnation occurs sometimes. Edited September 17, 2012 by Alan 1
mfbukowski Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Then again, I am one of a small number of LDS who believe that reincarnation occurs sometimes.Just to clarify for non-LDS lurkers, you are free to have your opinion, but that view is highly non-doctrinal.The whole gospel is based on the idea of a pre-mortal spirit coming to earth, obtaining a body, dying and going to the spirit world either paradise or prison and then eventually being resurrected to a kingdom of glory.It also includes the possibility that if one does not hear the gospel in this life, one will have the opportunity to grow and progress in the afterlife.I think there is absolutely no need to posit even a need for reincarnation- in the orthodox scheme I don't even see what function it would provide that cannot be accounted for in the orthodox view. If one misses something in this life, one will still have the opportunity to make up for it in the hereafter in the doctrinal scheme anyway- so what good would reincarnation do? The notion just throws a monkey-wrench into the whole schema.But we are free to decide these things for ourselves, as long as we can honestly pass a temple recommend interview, so there is nothing wrong with alternate views like this, and one would not be censured for such a view unless it was taught as an alternative to the traditional views.
Darren10 Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 This post is thoughtless, and very inappropriate for our guest.It is not at all humerous and borders on mockery.I found mfbukowski's post to our residential pope / miserenobis to be in very good taste and done in a buddy sort of way.
Darren10 Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 But if I had a choice between The Gospel According to Zerinus and the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, there would not be a flicker of a doubt which I would pick and my choice would not contain the letter Z.You're such a hater.
mfbukowski Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 You're such a hater. I know. I hate my family and want them to be miserable. But unfortunately I believe the the LDS God who won't let them be that way.Curses! Foiled again!
Darren10 Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 I know. I hate my family and want them to be miserable. But unfortunately I believe the the LDS God who won't let them be that way.Curses! Foiled again!
Darren10 Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Then again, I am one of a small number of LDS who believe that reincarnation occurs sometimes.In my opinion the smaller that number the better. I outright reject reincarnation as a possibility.
Darren10 Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 That statement is manifestly incorrect. Paradise in that context doesn't just mean the spirit world in general. It means the abode of the righteous in the spirit world where Jesus Himself was going, and where the thief was also going to be with Jesus where He was going. I agree that this does not justify "death bed repentance;" but like it or not, the implication of the above is that the thief on the cross was indeed forgiven, and promised a place in the abode of the righteous in the spirit world. Joseph Smith was mistaken to make that association, and so is the article in the Encyclopedia.Huh? What's wrong with what Joseph Smith taught regarding the world of our spirits?
zerinus Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Huh? What's wrong with what Joseph Smith taught regarding the world of our spirits?I thought I did explain. What was there about my explanation that you didn't understand?
cdowis Posted September 18, 2012 Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) I found mfbukowski's post to our residential pope / miserenobis to be in very good taste and done in a buddy sort of way.OK, and we can freely disagree with each other. In my view, it was a "light minded", juvenile, flippant attempt to talk about sacred things. Edited September 18, 2012 by cdowis
Thunderfire Posted September 18, 2012 Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) Greetings!I'd like to start a discussion on the Mormon cosmological view of the after-life, especially as regards missionary work. Here are some initial questions I have -- feel free to answer any of them you'd like Great question for discussion! In February 1832 while meditating on John (5:29) we are told that Joseph was taken in the "Spirit of revelation" and received what we now know as section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants. It answers this question for us. This is a most fascinating revelation! And one part speaks to this question.Basically we are told of different degrees of glory in the afterlife. Each one dependent on how we lived our lives on earth. The greatest is like the sun being the "Celestial Glory"; the next like the moon being the "Terrestial Glory"; the third being like the stars being the "Telestial Glory."Now we are told that ALL people are saved except for those called the "sons of perdition". For them, it would have been better had they never been born. But then this passage speaks of the lesser glory (Telestial) and how they will be ministered too by those of the (Terrestial) through the Holy Spirit and of angels. And how those in the (Terrestial) will be ministered too by those of the (Celestial).There is much more meat in this passage to share. But the core message I wanted to offer here is that YES, there is missionary work in the afterlife, or rather continued ministry to those Christ sends us too that they too may grow in the Spirit and continually grow closer to God. In the end, the salvation of Jesus is so profound that none will be lost, save those who are the "son's of perdition" along with the devil and his angels. We will always be ministering to those who need to grow more in Jesus Christ. I say about that much... Edited September 18, 2012 by Thunderfire
mfbukowski Posted September 18, 2012 Posted September 18, 2012 OK, and we can freely disagree with each other. In my view, it was a "light minded", juvenile, flippant attempt to talk about sacred things.But what matters is what Pius/Miserere thinks about it, but he appears to have vacated the premises at least for now. I suspect that he will re-appear perhaps as a sockpuppet, but that's life in the good old internet forum business I guess.
Thunderfire Posted September 18, 2012 Posted September 18, 2012 So, even after death I can keep on being a Catholic? That's great news In our scriptures we are given a different paradigm of thinking regarding "church in the afterlife." We are taught of the Church of the Firstborn and how this is a far greater identity than our earthly denominational loyalties.See this as the bridal paradigm where we no longer desire anything except our Lord Jesus as our groom. This is the great cloud of witnesses, those filled with the glory of God, who desire nothing but him. What I’m saying is that to identity yourself as Catholic, Baptist, or LDS will not be enough for you. Your desire will be a greater identity in your relationship with Jesus as his bride. A very personal relationship, far more intimate than we now fathom. Just my thoughts to consider.
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