Missionary Work In The After-Life

[MiserereNobis]

Greetings!

I'd like to start a discussion on the Mormon cosmological view of the after-life, especially as regards missionary work. Here are some initial questions I have -- feel free to answer any of them you'd like

1) My assumption is that this work is taking place in spirit prison. Those in paradise have already accepted the LDS church and the proxy temple work that has been done for them, yes?

2) What is spirit prison like? What is going on there besides missionary work? Could it have any relation to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, where souls are paying for the temporal effects of their sins so as to be perfectly clean before entering Heaven?

3) What is paradise like? Is everyone involved in missionary work? Do the souls in paradise have any interaction with humans on earth?

4) How could someone in spirit prison not accept the teachings of the missionaries there? I think it would be very simple for the missionaries to point out, "look at where you are -- you're in the midst of LDS cosmology, so the LDS church must be true." Is there the possibility of missionaries for other religions operating there? Could a deceased Catholic in spirit prison tell other souls that they must be in Purgatory because they are suffering and therefore the Catholic Church is true?

Thanks for your responses!

Edited September 15, 2012 by PopeStPiusX

[The Nehor]

Greetings!

I'd like to start a discussion on the Mormon cosmological view of the after-life, especially as regards missionary work. Here are some initial questions I have -- feel free to answer any of them you'd like

1) My assumption is that this work is taking place in spirit prison. Those in paradise have already accepted the LDS church and the proxy temple work that has been done for them, yes?

2) What is spirit prison like? What is going on there besides missionary work? Could it have any relation to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, where souls are paying for the temporal effects of their sins so as to be perfectly clean before entering Heaven?

3) What is paradise like? Is everyone involved in missionary work? Do the souls in paradise have any interaction with humans on earth?

4) How could someone in spirit prison not accept the teachings of the missionaries there? I think it would be very simple for the missionaries to point out, "look at where you are -- you're in the midst of LDS cosmology, so the LDS church must be true." Is there the possibility of missionaries for other religions operating there? Could a deceased Catholic in spirit prison tell other souls that they must be in Purgatory because they are suffering and therefore the Catholic Church is true?

Thanks for your responses!

1. Yes.

2. Spirit Prison is hell. There people suffer for their sins. You can see why missionary work will probably be easier there. "Do you want out of here?" will be a good door approach.

3. In paradise there is rest and peace. The rest is due to not being afflicted with tiredness. It will be a busy place. Some will be missionaries. So,e are involved with work for the dead and helping with genealogy. There will also presimably be those teaching the saints as well and they will progress. There may be other activities we either do not know of or even cannot comprehend without having been in this state.

4. Other then the knowledge that there is an afterlife knowledge will not increase. I imagine some will even convince themselves that they are already in heaven. I have seen almost no limit to human capacity for self-deception. Learned from the best on that (me).

[KevinG]

Those testimonies of people who have had contact from spirit prison usually come with requests that those who want their work done are desirous of being connected with their loved ones again.

My notion of spirit prison is not torture but of separation and a desire to be back in the presence of Heavenly Father and their beloved kindred.

[Freedom]

Very little is spoken of it in the scriptures. Here is an article on 'paradise'.

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Paradise

[MiserereNobis]

Very little is spoken of it in the scriptures. Here is an article on 'paradise'.

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Paradise

Thanks for the link. I was curious about this part:

This darkness is sometimes referred to as spirit prison, hell, or even "outer darkness" (Alma 40:13-14).

I thought spirit prison and outer darkness were two different things. Isn't outer darkness more like the traditional Christian hell, a place of complete separation from God with no possibility of reprieve, where souls are sent after the final judgement?

[Calm]

4. Other then the knowledge that there is an afterlife knowledge will not increase. I imagine some will even convince themselves that they are already in heaven. I have seen almost no limit to human capacity for self-deception. Learned from the best on that (me).

Also, it is not just accepting something as truth. It is what level of responsibility one desires to have as well. There are those who will not want to be fully engaged in God's work for whatever reason, those may accept a lesser Kingdom because it appeals to what they want to do for eternity more than what will be expected of them in the CK. Perhaps there will even be some that accept God as their Lord and Master and Redeemer, but do not desire to be fully one with him. We cannot currently understand what that oneness will mean to us so I think we must leave open the possibility that for some it would not be 'heaven' to engage God on that level.

Have you read the Gospel Principles manual? It is a great place to start out as it provides an overall structure of belief and thus helps in framing a discussion in my opinion.

[Calm]

Outer Darkness is the ultimate destination at the time of Judgment. Spirit Prison (which functions as both a teaching place for those who haven't had a chance yet to accept Christ as their Redeemer and a place of penance for those that won't accept the Atonement) would function as a holding place for those bound for OD as well as for others who will eventually accept Christ as their Lord, whether or not they accept the Atonement itself.

There is debate on exactly what Alma was talking about, spirit prison or the actual hell we call Outer Darkness today. Most tend to interpret it as the spirit prison. I believe (can't guarantee it) that we have just adapted that term for our own purpose as it evokes a vision of the final destination quite well in my view.

Edited September 15, 2012 by calmoriah

[MiserereNobis]

Outer Darkness is the ultimate destination at the time of Judgment. Spirit Prison would function as a holding place for those bound for OD as well as for others who will eventually accept Christ as their Lord, whether or not they accept the Atonement itself.

How does one accept Jesus as the Christ but not accept His Sacrifice? That seems rather impossible to me, since the whole purpose of Jesus' life was His Sacrifice.

[Calm]

The demons know he is master but reject his sacrifice and do not repent, right?

Edited September 15, 2012 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

4) How could someone in spirit prison not accept the teachings of the missionaries there? I think it would be very simple for the missionaries to point out, "look at where you are -- you're in the midst of LDS cosmology, so the LDS church must be true."

Yep.

Isaiah 45:23

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Romans 14:11

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:10

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

[MiserereNobis]

The demons know he is master but reject his sacrifice and do not repent, right?

Ok, I see what you mean now. Thanks for the clarification.

[Calm]

Ok, I see what you mean now. Thanks for the clarification.

[MiserereNobis]

Yep.

Isaiah 45:23

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Romans 14:11

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:10

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Does the LDS interpretation of the verses refer to those in spirit prison? It seems to go against the LDS concept of free-will if those in spirit prison have the truth blatantly in front of them and then are asked to choose. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.

[Duncan]

I don't know that everyone in paradise has accepted the fulness of the Gospel and it's quite possible that missionary work is going on there. Spirit prison and outer darkness are two seperate places

[Calm]

Does the LDS interpretation of the verses refer to those in spirit prison? It seems to go against the LDS concept of free-will if those in spirit prison have the truth blatantly in front of them and then are asked to choose. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.

More likely it's about what happens at Judgment. Not sure if we get that definite as to timing on this, just that eventually it happens.

I look on it much like someone not being able to graduate from a certain level of school (or shouldn't be able to) until they learn to read and write and do basic math. They may be in there for a long long time, but eventually they will choose to accept the necessity if they want to get out and learn or accept as the case may be.

OTOH, it may be that when Christ is revealed in all his glory, people will not be able to resist his presence but will be overwhelmed by him and in that way accept him as master as one would have to accept the Sun as hot no matter how we tried to deny it if we were close by it....at least if one was sane.

Edited September 15, 2012 by calmoriah

[MiserereNobis]

More likely it's about what happens at Judgment.

That is line with the Catholic interpretation.

OTOH, it may be that when Christ is revealed in all his glory, people will not be able to resist his presence but will be overwhelmed by him and in that way accept him as master as one would have to accept the Sun as hot no matter how we tried to deny it if we were close by it....at least if one was sane.

But again, wouldn't this go against the idea of free-will? Or do you mean that when Christ is revealed in His glory, all will acknowledge it, even though it is too late for that acknowledgment to have an effect on the eternal state of their soul? That would be the Catholic understanding, or at least my understanding of the Catholic understanding

[Calm]

It is more acknowledgement like the demons in the case of those who do not accept the Atonement personally. We don't see Judgment coming until all chance for change have been exhausted...well, at least that is how I interpret it. God will know when no matter what he does to reach out to us, we've gone as far as we are willing to go. The bending of the knee will not change anyone, any more than someone bowing to a king in mortality means he is actually loyal to that king even though that individual will not violate the laws of that king knowing the consequences of that violation.

[Sis W.]

I do alot of family history---I have submitted thousands of names---but I am not sure that individuals accept the Gospel in the Spirit World at percentages any higher then on earth----I do not underestimate Satan---if he can convince people that evil is good and good is evil on earth---I"m fairly confident he can do it there also.

[MiserereNobis]

I do alot of family history---I have submitted thousands of names---but I am not sure that individuals accept the Gospel in the Spirit World at percentages any higher then on earth----I do not underestimate Satan---if he can convince people that evil is good and good is evil on earth---I"m fairly confident he can do it there also.

This brought up another question for me (ha, I'm full of questions for you LDS folk). How, according to the LDS view, is satan so powerful? In Catholicism, the angels are pure spiritual beings (of a different ontological type than us) whose intelligence and abilities are far beyond our own. An angel gone bad is going to be able to use the gifts God created him with for terrible consequences. The greater the initial ability, the greater the harm caused when that ability is used for evil.

I've done some cursory research on exorcisms and it appears that the fallen angels are very powerful indeed -- the know the thoughts and the past actions of the exorcist and try to use it against him, to confuse him and control him. Scary stuff to read and probably near unbelievable to experience.

[Flyonthewall]

This brought up another question for me (ha, I'm full of questions for you LDS folk). How, according to the LDS view, is satan so powerful? In Catholicism, the angels are pure spiritual beings (of a different ontological type than us) whose intelligence and abilities are far beyond our own. An angel gone bad is going to be able to use the gifts God created him with for terrible consequences. The greater the initial ability, the greater the harm caused when that ability is used for evil.

I've done some cursory research on exorcisms and it appears that the fallen angels are very powerful indeed -- the know the thoughts and the past actions of the exorcist and try to use it against him, to confuse him and control him. Scary stuff to read and probably near unbelievable to experience.

Angels are simply messengers or servants of God. They are the same as us, except some are before their mortal life and some are after their mortal life. If an angel goes bad, they are no longer angels but simply a person of spirit. They have no power over us except that which we give them, by succumbing to temptation.

At least that is how I see it.

[Sis W.]

I do not believe that Satan is able to perceive our thoughts---and remember---Christ holds the keys to both Death and Hell---there is a definite limit to Satan's power.

[MiserereNobis]

I do not believe that Satan is able to perceive our thoughts---and remember---Christ holds the keys to both Death and Hell---there is a definite limit to Satan's power.

Well, these tape-recorded exorcisms are pretty powerful evidence to the contrary, as the demon, via the possessed, discloses information about the priest, his thoughts, his personal doubts, and his past.

But yeah, satan's power is definitely limited by the power of God.

[Calm]

I do not believe that Satan is able to perceive our thoughts---and remember---Christ holds the keys to both Death and Hell---there is a definite limit to Satan's power.

I think he can at least perceive our emotions...and if we open the door to him, I suspect he can perceive our thoughts.

If one accepts the Cain story as literal, he had to be able to communicate in some fashion.

[Flyonthewall]

...

4) How could someone in spirit prison not accept the teachings of the missionaries there? I think it would be very simple for the missionaries to point out, "look at where you are -- you're in the midst of LDS cosmology, so the LDS church must be true." Is there the possibility of missionaries for other religions operating there? Could a deceased Catholic in spirit prison tell other souls that they must be in Purgatory because they are suffering and therefore the Catholic Church is true?

Thanks for your responses!

We are also taught that the same spirit that we have in this life will follow us in the next life so...if, given a proper opportunity, someone would not accept the gospel here, they would not accept it there.

I don't believe there will be LDS vs everyone else. I believe there will simply be the truth. Catholics may recognize it as Catholicism, Protestants may see it as Protestantism, and LDS will see it as Mormonism.

As you know, we beleive all religions have a portion of truth, some great, some small but truth none the less. That would allow each to view the truth being taught as what they already believed.

[Calm]

I could use an exorcism of paint fumes right now.